My kid is failing.

[go_go_gadget]

Your daughter sounds just like me, although I'm not Aspie. When I was in elementary school, I was years ahead in almost all subjects but rarely did any work because my teachers knew I knew the material. I knew that was the mindset, too, so I just accepted as truth the idea that I didn't have to work because I was smart. Year after year of doing nothing at all, I was passed along because the teachers couldn't bear to hold me back, until I got to middle school. At that point we started getting real grades and the teachers couldn't just pass me along, so I did exactly what I needed to to get a C- and not a bit more. I remember vividly sitting and staring at an assignment that was well beneath me, and feeling an almost physical repulsion. But because I made such terrible grades, I was disqualified from taking honors classes (gifted status was dependent on test scores, which I always did well on, so that program remained open to me). Come high school, same thing. I was also difficult to discipline because I didn't watch TV or use the computer, and by the beginning of high school didn't go out much. My parents took to me a few therapists, the last of whom suggested they either stop feeding me until I showed some responsibility, or to put me on Lithium. Thankfully, they didn't do either of those things.

 

So I can really relate to your daughter's situation. What I needed when I was her age was a greater challenge than the school was willing to give me, due to my grades. I ended up leaving high school at 15 and starting at college, where, due to my lack of a developed work ethic, I aced the classes I liked and blithely failed the classes I didn't (because I was smart, right?). I ended up with a GPA just above a 2.0, and couldn't transfer into any really good university programs. I ended up taking a couple of years off completely and a few years part-time while my kids were little. I'm 28 now, have transferred to a decent but unremarkable university, and may never be able to get into the graduate programs I'm interested in, despite the paradigm shift that finally, finally, finally took place in my academic habits (I have a 4.0 at my new university, but it's very possible that my old GPA will still be included in my cumulative total).

 

All of this is to say that I really, really wish that those in charge of me when I was young had had the determination and resources (in terms of curricula), to provide me with the challenge I needed to be motivated and to develop the work ethic that supposed to be developed in youth and not as an adult. I wish that curricula like those I'm using with my kids had existed (and that my family or teachers had known about them) when I was younger.

 

You are her mother, and you know better than I do what's good for her. However, you've said that this school quite possibly gives too much information and isn't challenging her, but you also said it's a good fit because of the structure. Given her current status, I very respectfully suggest that you might reconsider how well the structure is really serving her. Is there any possibility of seeking out more appropriate material, possibly with her input? If algebra is too easy, might AoPS be better? If the Gatsby project is uninspiring, might a Great Books approach (with historical context) be more interesting, etc.? If the options are a) let her fail and repeat 10th grade through the same school, or maybe b) try different curricula for the rest of the year and see if that helps, it seems like you have very little to lose, and potentially a fair amount to gain.

 

I apologize for the novel-length post, and also if I've been presumptuous.

 

Very warmly,

 

Laura

[AlmiraGulch]

 

You are her mother, and you know better than I do what's good for her. However, you've said that this school quite possibly gives too much information and isn't challenging her, but you also said it's a good fit because of the structure. Given her current status, I very respectfully suggest that you might reconsider how well the structure is really serving her. Is there any possibility of seeking out more appropriate material, possibly with her input? If algebra is too easy, might AoPS be better? If the Gatsby project is uninspiring, might a Great Books approach (with historical context) be more interesting, etc.? If the options are a) let her fail and repeat 10th grade through the same school, or maybe b) try different curricula for the rest of the year and see if that helps, it seems like you have very little to lose, and potentially a fair amount to gain.

 

I apologize for the novel-length post, and also if I've been presumptuous.

 

Very warmly,

 

Laura

You have not been presumptuous at all and I appreciate your sharing your story.

 

I do want to re-state one thing....I didn't say (or didn't mean to, if I did) that she isn't challenged. I did say they give a LOT of information, and I can see that being overwhelming for her, but the curricula itself is solid and the structure (meaning, it is very plainly laid out, day by day, what needs to be done) is really what she needs. If only she would choose to follow it....

[kalanamak]

FWIW, I don't feel at all judged and I appreciate your opinion very much. But here's my serious, real, question for you, specifically......you said your parents just threw up their hands and gave up, but you wish they hadn't. What do you wish they had done instead? And, in honest hindsight, do you think that at that time of your life "it" (whatever it may be) would have made a difference?

 

I was a stubborn kid (still stubborn, just smarter ;)). My folks let me fritter away school starting at the end of 9th grade, and let me drop out when it was legal. I can't think of anything they could have done to change my mind. I think if they had struggled against me, I would have run away and HID. Instead, I left home, but kept in contact. I "got interested" in school was I was 21.

 

I know many here disagree with this, and I don't want to start rehashing how much your child will hate you/love you for lowering the boom, but in my case, I would have taken any boom as an allegorical red flag waving in front of the bull.

 

Only you know your daughter, and only you can winnow through our thoughts and decide. For me, quitting and working matured me and made me ready for school.

[go_go_gadget]

You have not been presumptuous at all and I appreciate your sharing your story.

 

I do want to re-state one thing....I didn't say (or didn't mean to, if I did) that she isn't challenged. I did say they give a LOT of information, and I can see that being overwhelming for her, but the curricula itself is solid and the structure (meaning, it is very plainly laid out, day by day, what needs to be done) is really what she needs. If only she would choose to follow it....

 

When I mentioned her not being challenged, I was thinking of the algebra class that's a repeat of what she's already done (but perhaps I misunderstood that bit).

[5LittleMonkeys]

I do want to re-state one thing....I didn't say (or didn't mean to, if I did) that she isn't challenged. I did say they give a LOT of information, and I can see that being overwhelming for her, but the curricula itself is solid and the structure (meaning, it is very plainly laid out, day by day, what needs to be done) is really what she needs. If only she would choose to follow it....

 

But is it inspiring? Could she be bored and un-challenged by the content? Maybe her work doesn't seem meaningful to her and so she doesn't see the point in doing it.

 

I don't have any answers...these are just questions I've been asking myself regarding my oldest. :grouphug:

[hollyh]

You've got a lot of good advice here so I will just add my two cents. I know my kids are young but I used to work with youth for years and dh is a hs teacher.

 

It is hard to fail a class. To be failing almost everything shows an extreme shout out for help - whether that be depression, anger, or a strong NEED (usually for the parent to invest more time in them). I don't believe now is the time to let your kid fail. You let your kid fail an assignment or project to teach them the effects - not a whole grade level. Your child is letting you know that she is in NEED. You need to find out what that need is and work on it. Have a heart to heart. Talk to her counselor. I don't know how considering I know you are a single mom, but you have to invest more.

 

I agree that you should tomato-stake her. It's probably what she wants. Be matter of fact and non emotional over it. Try to look at it positively as added time with her. Come up with clear expectations and consequences WITH her. Make it a team effort. Then follow through with no emotion. I know you don't think she cares, but it's still important to have them and follow through. I would keep her with me all day until school work is completed - no fun reading until then either.

 

Also, schedule some special dates for just the two of you. Take her to somewhere she would like. Spend time with her and try to break down those walls.

 

I also agree that she is bored with Algebra. Talk to her about it. Acknowledge that you are aware of that, but that she needs to complete it so that she can move on (if that is what she needs to do- I don't know how HS and homeschooling works).

 

Good luck. Hugs!!!

[Ester Maria]

She is 15. Not 5. While still a child, there is a HUGE difference between the amount of appropriate hand-holding at 5 and at 15. What might seem like a favor today (sitting next to her, nagging her, being involved in her school work as though she was in elementary, micromanaging her time and assignments, etc.) might, on the long run, be its opposite if, because of that approach, she does not develop the skills necessary to pick herself up in hard / unmotivated times, and move on with her life and academics.

 

You seem to have to have done your part of what a dear, well-meaning parent does in such a situation. But there is a line. There is a line to what ought to be your involvement with a 15 year old child, in a camp of their own academic development and future. The rules of the game do change with time, what is in an elementary kid's best interest is not necessarily what is in a high school kid's best interest. I tend to err on the side of my responsibility when they are little - by taking things up to myself to discuss them, organize them, motivate them, etc. But as the grow, I start erring on the side of their responsibility by a more hands off approach on my part and by letting them learn from their mistakes. We cannot continously "prepare" them for life. At some point, they ARE in that life already, big time, even if they are still under our custody. They simply have to cope and find their way in coping. Losing a year is a relatively painless investment if it brings about some maturity, reflection, better coping skills and better future perspective. Not that she "has" to lose a year - she still has enough time to make up for it. But, at her age, I believe it has to come principally from HER, not YOU. She has to own her life at some point. Owning her education is a good start in that direction.

 

It does not mean that you have to be invisible, without any input, ignore the topic, etc. But you must realize that you cannot make her choices, and that she has to make SOME choices, and that at her age, it would be really, really bad for her, on the long run, to make such "choices" as a result of coercion. Failure and picking herself up after that failure is probably a lot bette choice than a success forced through coercion, which would merely delay the problem, not necessarily solve it.

 

Sit her down, express your feelings and concerns, and tell her what you told us. And then let her do as she sees fit.

 

It sounds cruel, but in reality, it is the exact opposite of cruel. What is truly cruel is "success" through physical coercion, emotional manipulation, and treating her like a child - potentially setting her up for a complete breakdown once the coercive structure is away (like at college), because she would not develop the intrinsic drive and work ethic. Some people need to fail to ultimately succeed, and the earlier it happens, on the more secure ground it happens, the better.

Making minor modifications and restrictions to help her help herself is fine and within the description of your job as a mother. But what you seem to be dealing with is a situation much past those minor kicks for her to start doing things. When things get that bad as you describe, there are two basic choices - either coercion, either hands off. I am all for coercion if things go bad in camps such as health, personal safety, etc. When it comes to academics, though, I fully believe coercion at this level is typically the worse of two choices. She needs to develop her own mechanisms of have her going when times are rough and pick herself up when she fails, and high school is an ideal time to learn that.

[katilac]

I would speak to her and her therapist about depression (making sure that dd understands that 'depressed' does not necessarily mean 'sad).

 

If she is clinically depressed, it's very unlikely that any strategy will work without addressing that.

[dragons in the flower bed]

For example, two of her cousins were home schooled, got their GEDs and are going into the military. We talked about it and she definitely does not want to do that. Just this morning I said to her that if she ever, ever wants to go to college, she needs to do what she needs to do now so that the option will remain open for her, even if she never does it. That means doing well in high school. Failure to do so eliminates that option.

 

She could still go to college if she fails tenth grade, just not a choosy college. She might have to go to community college for an associates first, and to do that she might have to get a GED.

 

Another way to get into a choosy college would be to quit the public cyber school right now before she fails and instead develop a portfolio of interesting unschooled experiences. Then in two years, when she's had some time to heal from what's distressing her now, when she's done two or three projects, she can cram for some CLEPs. Sounds like she'll be able to handle the algebra. Good schools do take radical unschoolers. :)

 

It's a terrifying risk to take, unschooling for a year, especially when your child is withdrawing from the world and wants to sleep all day. It sounds like that might be the only way to save her best future.

 

I understand the feelings of those whose parents decided to step back and let them fail. I also wish there had been more guidance in my adolescence (or just plain help... but I won't go there...). But if you sit down with her and talk about the option, maybe read The Teenage Liberation Handbook, and help her plan projects, she won't feel abandoned.

 

Hugs to you. Hang in there. My beloved is in the habit of saying to me, when things appear to be falling down, that life is long. She can and very likely will be okay in the long run even if she fails tenth grade.

Edited December 17, 2011 by dragons in the flower bed

[almondbutterandjelly]

Aspies need their hands held, when they're 5 and when they're 15 and when they're 25. I have two Aspie brothers, and we got them through school and we got them through college and we got them real jobs. The younger one still lives with my parents at age 27, but I do think he might move out one day. I think of Aspies as the ultimate late bloomer. Years and years later, in some cases.

 

Hold your Aspie's hand as much as you can. It might seem like you are doing too much for her, but you're not. Aspies process differently from other people. They just do. If you want your child to graduate high school and go to college, you must completely stay on top of that. Yes, you will do some SERIOUS hand-holding. We were all super involved with my younger brother's homework all the time, to the point of re-teaching and occasionally doing some portions of it so he had fabulous examples to use to do the rest. And I'm the one who picked which college he would go to, and I'm the one who created his class schedule every semester for all four years of college (with his input of course), and I'm the one who figured out what to do when we had to change his major from Computer Science because he didn't pass Calculus three times. You must HELP. That's the nature of the beast. It's okay. Keep your emotional relationship healthy, but HOLD HER HAND to get through this. She needs you.

[Anne in CA]

Hold your Aspie's hand as much as you can. It might seem like you are doing too much for her, but you're not. Aspies process differently from other people. They just do. If you want your child to graduate high school and go to college, you must completely stay on top of that. Yes, you will do some SERIOUS hand-holding.

 

I totally see this. The only people I know with grown Aspie children that are doing well do this. My BIL took a pay cut to work from home and sit next to my Aspie nephew day in and day out and make sure he gets his school work done. He will be attending college while living at home doing this same thing. He will attend class, but sit next to BIL to do homework. Time management is not the same for Aspies as other people.

 

I do think she is angry, she was playing your ex and he let her. His behavior must hurt her, it has to. He has never been responsible and she may feel that she is not worth being responsible for. That is my opinion, for what it's worth, but I have a lot of compassion for her with what she has been through.

[tex-mex]

I hate to say it, but have you considered just having her study for the GRE and have her take the test in Fall 2012? No shame in it. Just get school over with?

 

It sounds like in your situation she is simply not interested in school and no one is at home to supervise or guide/motivate her. Discuss with her what her goals are -- use What Color is Your Parachute for Teens -- and begin thinking of vocational or college. Or just one class next Spring 2013 at a cc to see how she thrives or fails. Sometimes you have to let them fail.

 

I have a friend who child was in the same situation decades ago as early homeschoolers. She finally had the teen get her GED and do what they wanted. She got pregnant right away and gave up the baby for adoption. Got into college and graduated with a BA in Business. Now she is working in the field she loves and through open adoption gets to see her son with a loving devoted family. She had to grow up and make her mind up, tho'.

[Ester Maria]

We were all super involved with my younger brother's homework all the time, to the point of re-teaching and occasionally doing some portions of it so he had fabulous examples to use to do the rest. And I'm the one who picked which college he would go to, and I'm the one who created his class schedule every semester for all four years of college (with his input of course), and I'm the one who figured out what to do when we had to change his major from Computer Science because he didn't pass Calculus three times. You must HELP. That's the nature of the beast. It's okay. Keep your emotional relationship healthy, but HOLD HER HAND to get through this. She needs you.

What you are talking about here is not really benign hand-holding - more like, a fairly complete dedication of your life to... essentially lead somebody else's life. :confused:

 

Deciding about his future majors, college, schedule, and making such choices about his professional future?? At the age of majority?? Maybe one should not be on a college track if one cannot cope on their own with these things and decisions, if one does not have a vision for their own life and what they want to do professionally? What you are describing, if I read it correctly, is not "help" as much as it is quite literally taking over another person's life under your control. Just where is the healthy line of where one person ends and another person begins, in such a case? :001_huh: You cannot live somebody else's life for them, make their crucial life choices for them (in terms of professional education, jobs, etc.), not even if they are your own child. What you are describing sounds so wrong to me on so many levels that I cannot even find words for it. :confused: I get the genuine, good parental intentions for their child - I think we all get that - but... but at some point, they are a distinct individual and they have to live their life, not you, even at the cost of a poorer quality of life than one would have if micromanaged / coerced into doing things by somebody else's plan / hyper-controlled. I mean, everyone could have lived much "better" lives, in theory, if they had somebody on top of them even past the "reasonable" age to be on top of them, but it still does not mean that it would have been the right thing to do, only to maximize their success. People need autonomy, and a chance to do what they can with what they have - and a right to their own failure included in that. What good is a success that is not a product of your own work and drive, that does not organically grow from your own person, your own directives for your life? You are talking about adult people here, not young children... and OP's daughter is maybe somewhere in between, which maybe allows for a possibility to err on either side... but I would personally feel very wrong if I were dragging my children to succeed in life (on any level). Ultimately, it has to come from them. Better to be a first rate version of yourself, of who you are (even if that is not an academic / a stereotypically successful person / etc.), as a result of your own maturing, than a second rate version of somebody else that somebody "dragged" you to become in the first place. It just sounds so wrong to me (if I am reading you correctly in the first place). Do not get me wrong, I am the first one to gently push my children to excellence in accordance with their potential - but there is a limit to pushing. At some point, they have to make choices that are genuinely theirs and own those choices... like OP's daughter's situation with education now.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Ester Maria

[chiguirre]

What you are describing, if I read it correctly, is not "help" as much as it is quite literally taking over another person's life under your control. Just where is the healthy line of where one person ends and another person begins, in such a case? :001_huh:

 

They're not talking about neurotypical people, they're talking about adults with an autism spectrum disorder. The disability rules in the US are byzantine and these people may not qualify because their IQ is too high even though they are unable to hold even a low skill job without a lot of coaching. Often, asd adults do better with a higher skill job where their quirks are more tolerable but to get there you do have to "give up your life" as a parent and sit right next to them for years on end.

 

OP, you're in a tough spot. Do you have access to any teen or young adult oriented asd services? They might be able to help you find a school situation that will work better for your dd. If not, maybe a more flexible correspondence school would work better.

 

Good luck!

[AlmiraGulch]

I haven't responded in a couple of days but have been reading everyone's posts and giving them a lot of thought.

 

For now, I've decided to not just throw my hands up and let her do whatever she does, good or bad. I don't want her to fail a grade. We talked at length, again, and she has been given until January 6 to make up most of her work by the school. She will be working every day throughout the Christmas break to get it done. She created a written, day by day plan of what she's going to do to get it done, but even with that, she ends up not doing what she had on her plan for that day. At least she knows someone is paying attention, though, and she has something to work toward. It may or may not work, but she won't ever think no one cared, like poor Nance had to deal with. I recognize she needs more oversight than perhaps I did when I was her age (or, really, most 15 year olds) but I won't do it for her or micromanage it.

 

I won't do what some have suggested and do it for her, or sit by her side for hours on end while she does her work. I just won't. She may have ASD but she knows she has to do her work, and she knows how to do it. She just chooses not to. She will either get it done and feel that success on her own or she will fail on her own. She has GOT to learn, one way or another, to manage her own time, to feel the joy of success, to feel the sting of failure, and to do things even when she doesn't want to. I believe it's an essential life skill and I think I'd be doing her a disservice to not allow this. Even if it means she's home for a few years longer than I would have originally hoped for her.

 

I still don't know if I'm doing the right thing or not. I guess I'll just have to see how it goes. I'm so sad for her right now but trying hard not to show her that, because she can still turn it around if she wants to so I don't want her to think that failure is predetermined.

 

Any other thoughts and ideas are more than welcome. If you have anything else to say about this PLEASE put it here! I value all of your input.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

They're not talking about neurotypical people, they're talking about adults with an autism spectrum disorder. The disability rules in the US are byzantine and these people may not qualify because their IQ is too high even though they are unable to hold even a low skill job without a lot of coaching. Often, asd adults do better with a higher skill job where their quirks are more tolerable but to get there you do have to "give up your life" as a parent and sit right next to them for years on end.

 

OP, you're in a tough spot. Do you have access to any teen or young adult oriented asd services? They might be able to help you find a school situation that will work better for your dd. If not, maybe a more flexible correspondence school would work better.

 

Good luck!

 

 

:iagree: You wouldn't tell a parent of a child with say, Down's Syndrome, "Let her fail. She needs to learn how to handle things on her own."

 

Asperger's syndrome can be debilitating for people who can't figure out how to "work the system".

[Friederike in Persia]

Only just joined this forum so hope I am not treading on anyone's toes but my experience with my son was very similiar in that he just would not buckle down to any school work at all.

However, after leaving school and having had one or two jobs that folded he eventually decided to become a paramedic and completely surprised us all by his diligent studying and passed first time. He got promotions one after the other and I still find it hard to beleive that he has turned into this workaholic almost.

The moral to this story is that schooling isn't necessarily the end of everything. If they are truly a knowledgeable person they will get there in the end...:001_smile:

 

Welcome and the quote is great!:thumbup1:

[kalanamak]

 

Hold your Aspie's hand as much as you can. It might seem like you are doing too much for her, but you're not. Aspies process differently from other people. They just do. If you want your child to graduate high school and go to college, you must completely stay on top of that. Yes, you will do some SERIOUS hand-holding.

 

 

Unfortunately, the OP (at least in my reading of it) is in a situation of the daughter having conflict problems with heavy involvement. Not every Aspie (or any teen), blossoms with "hand holding".

[tex-mex]

Unfortunately, the OP (at least in my reading of it) is in a situation of the daughter having conflict problems with heavy involvement. Not every Aspie (or any teen), blossoms with "hand holding".

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Alessandra]

As for privileges....yes, we've tried that. She doesn't "do" much, though. She has no friends so never goes out. she doesn't want to drive.

 

I don't KNOW her currency. She really has none. I know that sounds crazy, because everyone does, but really....she just doesn't. Nothing that motivates her anyway. Not positively or negatively. She has been that way since birth.

 

Could it be that your dd is depressed? I know you mentioned that she has been this way since birth, but has it gotten worse? I would want to try to figure out why she is ok with failing. Also, the fact that your daughter has no "currency" makes me suspect that she might have depression. She doensn't sound interested in life at all. I would look at getting a third party involved like a counselor. It doesn't sound like a tutor would be any help since the schoolwork isn't above her head. It sounds like a motivation issue which could be related to depression.

Elise in NC

 

Yes, it could be that she is depressed, although I don't know for sure. She has been seeing a therapist weekly for a few months now. I see improvement in her demeanor but not in her work.

 

I'm responding to the attitude a few people have taken that seems to be a very nonchalant "So let her fail, it's her education, her problem, her life" kind of thing.

 

I know you're not talking to me, but I had similar issues, though not as severe as Nance was talking about. I wish they had kindly coaxed me through it and helped me find out how to be interested instead of punishing me for not doing it. It wasn't depression, but felt similar. Appropriate levels of motivation are impossible to maintain when morale is that low. Someone posted on here a while back, One*mom, perhaps, about talking to people about how they use maths in their every day lives. "This is cool, and useful and interesting because..." would have helped me, though I didn't know to ask for it. It would have opened the world instead of closing it with "just get on with it."

 

Rosie

 

My first thought was depression. If a child were self-assured, with lots of friends, sports & activities, I might go the 'let her fail' route. But with a child who has, as you say, 'no currency,' I would not want her to fail, because then there is not much left for her to build an identity around. I'd be concerned that a failure could lead to self-loathing. As you said, she was capable of doing work in past years, so perhaps he lack of work now is a call for help?

 

Are there other programs you could look at? Any activities? Any local volunteer opportunities? It sounds as though your dd does not have much contact with people and that worries me. Your tag mentions a younger sister who is "thriving." That alone can be disturbing for an older sibling.

 

I know you are in a very tough place, and I wish I had better advice other than a gut feeling that your dd should not be allowed to fail.

 

Adding -- I gather from the posts that you dd has a diagnosis. Have you considered out of district placement, if your school district is amenable (or can be forced)? In my area (NJ), there are lots of excellent small nourishing schools that provide customized programs that can be academically challenging, but with lots of guidance. The programs often cost in the range of $50,000/year, which is why I would suggest going through a school district. Or maybe you don't live in an area with that kind of choice?