Question about tithing.

[gardenmom5]

That is not what we said or meant :confused: That is not what lds believe.

 

One moment and i'll quote mamma sheep.

 

The reason the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints can do what it does for its members is because we have an unpaid clergy and we tithe as if it were a commandment, because we believe it IS a commandment, and that we will be extra blessed if we keep the commandments.

 

I do not know what is the right answer for those that attend a different denomination and are poor and cannot afford to pay tithing; I cannot speak for them. However, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a family like that could still pay 10% and rest assured they will have food on their table bc of the church's welfare system.

 

Maybe that person might be curious to learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints... ?

 

and then there is the employment system to help them find a job if they are unemployed. stratigies to help people to help themselves sometimes have to be taught. (as someone in another thread said - she works at a school where families can't afford a car to get to a job, but teenagers have smart phones . . . yes, that is a more extreme example, but it really happens.)

[amey311]

:iagree: I believe it was Jesus himself who said the whole don't need a physician, but they that are sick. (re: struggling) (I'm too lazy to go look it up.)

 

Is it that she feels God would censure her for coming, or that members of the congregation would look down on her for not being "perfect"?

 

Basically? That god was disappointed in her for not beating this thing already.

 

(cynicism alert) Of course, it could also have been a way for her to garner sympathy or manipulate. She knew I was agnostic, though, so I'm not exactly sure what she thought it would do. I tried to answer her in a Christian way rather than the way I wanted to which was more like "stop passing the buck on this and go to the ****ed meetings like you're supposed to. it's not 'the devil' that's buying the vodka - it's YOU!!" But that's a thread derailment, and I don't really want to get in to all the ins and outs of addiction.

[Colleen in NS]

Like Mammasheep said, she clarified what I was trying to say in post 90. Of course God blesses everyone, however He promises specific, individual blessings to those who tithe. Mamma sheep explained it so much clearer. Please read her post.

 

Like I said above, I did read her post.

 

(bolding is mine) Thank you for clarifying your thoughts.

 

People are giving, just not a "tithe". They're giving what they are led to give to the church itself.

 

Thank you for answering.

 

People who are poor can't afford NOT to pay their tithing because if you don't show the faith God can't bless you with what you need.

 

I can't wrap my head around the idea that God can't/won't provide for poor people who really and truly might not be able to tithe, without great hardship, to a church. Not everyone belongs to the Mormon church, either, or to any church that is able to do what yours does for its members. It's just not an ideal world we live in.

 

That is not what we said or meant :confused: That is not what lds believe.

 

When I wrote the above-quoted post, I was thinking of sewingmama's post (quoted above my above-quoted post), even though I was responding to MamaSheep. I'm hoping sewingmama will respond and speak for herself.

[LMD]

I once visited a church where at least equal time was spent guilt tripping for money (apparently the poor children's sunday school room was unfinished still) as on the disturbingly errant sermon. I could hardly believe my ears, I just kept looking around at the new stadium seating, the numerous giant flat-screens, over-the-top equipment for the band... we never went back, we would have walked out but for respect for our host.

They were non-denominational FYI.

 

I would not stay in a church that demanded from or bullied me. And I find it very disturbing when this sort of thinking is linked into 'if you were a real christian...'

 

Now, I agree with the PP that God wants us to be generous, cheerful givers, and that the 10% in the OT is a good minimum guide, a shadow. How that plays out in terms of $ & cents is up to each persons conscience - and that is what my church teaches.

[Colleen in NS]

Poor wording on my part. Sorry. That is not what I meant nor what lds believe.

 

Oh, I see you edited. OK, gotcha.:)

 

Maybe that person might be curious to learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints... ?

 

I've actually been amazed to read here about how your denomination seems to care for its people in so many practical ways. I don't think every poor person struggling to tithe is going to switch denominations, though. Although, maybe sewingmama was just referring to those in the Mormon church. I don't know - hopefully she'll clarify, because what she wrote about the poor boggled my mind.

[Xuzi]

I have an honest question. Don't Mormons believe that Jesus is a "lesser" God? Why is your church named after him if you don't consider him an equal? Why don't you just name it The Church of Godhead or something? Don't you believe that by doing all these things you will be "Gods" of your own universe someday and have millions of kids?

 

I'm genuinely curious about this, because Jesus is in the name of your church.

That's a short question with a ginormous answer, but I'll try to give a condensed (but as acurate as possible) answer.

 

Jesus is in the name of our church because it's His church. He's in no way a "lesser" God. He is our Savior. The Creator of the Earth. The Only Begotten Son of the Father.

 

WE, humans, are His joint-heirs (Romans 8:17). What did Christ inherit from His Father?

 

God didn't create man to be His eternal grovelling underlings. He wants us to experience the joy and happiness of Eternal Life that He has, just as any loving parent here on Earth hopes to see their children grow up into responsible adults who share in the joys of adulthood with them.

[....]

I once visited a church where at least equal time was spent guilt tripping for money (apparently the poor children's sunday school room was unfinished still) as on the disturbingly errant sermon. I could hardly believe my ears, I just kept looking around at the new stadium seating, the numerous giant flat-screens, over-the-top equipment for the band... we never went back, we would have walked out but for respect for our host.

 

I've seen this several times and that's one of the reasons why I'm so cynical (that's the word I'm looking for) when it comes to churches and money. My dad and my grandfather were both music directors for different churches and some of the stuff I saw when I was a kid was just :eek:.

 

I wish I wasn't such a cynic.

Edited December 15, 2011 by starrbuck12

[ForeverFamily]

Why do you think He can't/cannot "bless you with what you need" or "pour out a blessing" on people who don't tithe (in the sense of this thread) - esp. the poor? Is He incapable of providing for the poor unless they tithe to a church?

 

I know I am not one of the two people you are hoping to have respond to your question, but I thought I would add my 2 cents. I agree with what Xuzi said....

 

 

It's not that God CAN'T "pour out a blessing" on those that don't tithe, but He WON'T go back on His word. God means what He says. If He says that tithing will open the windows of heaven to you such that you "shall not have room to recieve it", then that is what will happen when you tithe (and I've seen this in my own life). He doesn't ONLY bless those that tithe, as we see elsewhere in scripture, of course, but "opening the windows of heaven" is only referenced (in my reading, and there's a LOT of scripture, so I might have missed it :p ) in regards to tithing.

 

I absolutely believe that He WON'T go back on His word. When God makes a promise he makes a promise, period! This brought to mind 3 scripture verses. They come from the Doctrine and Covenants, which we as members of the LDS church believe is modern revelation from the prophet Joseph Smith. They read as follows.....

 

D&C 130

20. There is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated-

21. And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

 

and

 

D&C 82

10. I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when you do not what I say, ye have no promise.

 

In other words God has given us commandments and promises certian blessings upon obedience to those commandments. And when we obey those commandments He gives us those blessings which He promised. But when we do not obey those commandments we have no promise to recieve those blessings because, to say it frankly, we didn't hold up our end of the deal.

 

However that being said. I absolutely believe that God blesses everyone. And I mean everyone Rich, Poor, Old, Young, etc. Here is a quote from one of my favorite talks given by Dallin H Oaks. The talk isn't about tithing, but about the relationship between Love and Law.

 

Dallin H. Oaks (from his talk "Love and Law")....

 

""Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?†the Apostle Paul asked. Not tribulation, not persecution, not peril or the sword (see Romans 8:35). “For I am persuaded,†he concluded, “that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, … nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God†(verses 38–39).

There is no greater evidence of the infinite power and perfection of God’s love than is declared by the Apostle John: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son†(John 3:16). Another Apostle wrote that God “spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all†(Romans 8:32). Think how it must have grieved our Heavenly Father to send His Son to endure incomprehensible suffering for our sins. That is the greatest evidence of His love for each of us!

God’s love for His children is an eternal reality, but why does He love us so much, and why do we desire that love? The answer is found in the relationship between God’s love and His laws.

Some seem to value God’s love because of their hope that His love is so great and so unconditional that it will mercifully excuse them from obeying His laws. In contrast, those who understand God’s plan for His children know that God’s laws are invariable, which is another great evidence of His love for His children. Mercy cannot rob justice,2 and those who obtain mercy are “they who have kept the covenant and observed the commandment†(D&C 54:6)......

God’s love is so perfect that He lovingly requires us to obey His commandments because He knows that only through obedience to His laws can we become perfect, as He is. For this reason, God’s anger and His wrath are not a contradiction of His love but an evidence of His love. Every parent knows that you can love a child totally and completely while still being creatively angry and disappointed at that child’s self-defeating behavior.

The love of God is so universal that His perfect plan bestows many gifts on all of His children, even those who disobey His laws. ......As Jesus taught, our Heavenly Father “maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust†(Matthew 5:45).......

God’s choicest blessings are clearly contingent upon obedience to God’s laws and commandments. ......

This great principle helps us understand the why of many things, like justice and mercy balanced by the Atonement. It also explains why God will not forestall the exercise of agency by His children. Agency—our power to choose—is fundamental to the gospel plan that brings us to earth. God does not intervene to forestall the consequences of some persons’ choices in order to protect the well-being of other persons—even when they kill, injure, or oppress one another—for this would destroy His plan for our eternal progress.8 He will bless us to endure the consequences of others’ choices, but He will not prevent those choices.9" "

 

Hope that helped, and didn't make it more confusing;)!

 

 

To read the whole talk go here

[Mama2Many4]

That's a short question with a ginormous answer, but I'll try to give a condensed (but as acurate as possible) answer.

 

Jesus is in the name of our church because it's His church. He's in no way a "lesser" God. He is our Savior. The Creator of the Earth. The Only Begotten Son of the Father.

 

WE, humans, are His joint-heirs (Romans 8:17). What did Christ inherit from His Father?

 

God didn't create man to be His eternal grovelling underlings. He wants us to experience the joy and happiness of Eternal Life that He has, just as any loving parent here on Earth hopes to see their children grow up into responsible adults who share in the joys of adulthood with them.

 

 

Thank you for explaining your beliefs. Straight from the horses mouth and all that, ya know. :001_smile:

[jennsmile]

I have an honest question. Don't Mormons believe that Jesus is a "lesser" God? Why is your church named after him if you don't consider him an equal? Why don't you just name it The Church of Godhead or something? Don't you believe that by doing all these things you will be "Gods" of your own universe someday and have millions of kids?

 

I'm genuinely curious about this, because Jesus is in the name of your church.

 

 

This and this probably explains our beliefs about Jesus being the Son of God better than I can while I am trying to clean house, and take care of a sick kid. We don't really consider him lesser but he his God's Son. As for becoming Gods this I think answers that from a Mormon point of view. I realize there are other views on the internet. ;)

 

And because I really don't know could you explain the meaning of catholic? I understand Baptists get their name from John the Baptist, Lutherans because they followed Martin Luther, but what does catholic mean? Really I ask because I don't know. I have great respect and love for my catholic friends but never thought to ask them.

Edited December 15, 2011 by jennsmile
Fixing my capitalization error. ;)

[TexasRachel]

Thank you for explaining how it's done at

 

I just wanted to clarify that the LDS church requires/asks for tithing and that's what pays for the running of the church. We don't have fundraisers of any sort. Except for the scout troops. Missions are expected to be payed by the family. Church buildings, supplies, and the few paid workers we have (maintenance) are payed out of tithing. This amount gets spread church/world wide.

 

We then give an additional amount once a month (fast offering-amount of two meals) that pays for the congregation's charity work. This amount usually stays within the area.

 

You absolutely can attend church without paying tithing. However, we receive additional blessings from it. We are taught it's an act of faith and gratitude to return to the Lord a portion of what is actually his. That said, I think it's sad that someone would feel unwelcome for not paying tithing. It is between you and the Lord.

[ForeverFamily]

I have an honest question. Don't Mormons believe that Jesus is a "lesser" God? Why is your church named after him if you don't consider him an equal? Why don't you just name it The Church of Godhead or something? Don't you believe that by doing all these things you will be "Gods" of your own universe someday and have millions of kids?

 

I'm genuinely curious about this, because Jesus is in the name of your church.

 

Great question! I would be happy to answer your question. But right now I have to go make my kiddos lunch (we ate breakfast late today) and I also have to get some of them down for naps.;) And just so happens like jennsmile, my kiddos are sick too. And they are all needing my attention. Sooooo....I will post a response in a little while. But that is a good question, that has a good answer.

[Parrothead]

This and this probably explains our beliefs about Jesus being the Son of God better than I can while I am trying to clean house, and take care of a sick kid. We don't really consider him lesser but he his God's Son. As for becoming Gods this I think answers that from a Mormon point of view. I realize there are other views on the internet. ;)

 

And because I really don't know could you explain the meaning of Catholic? I understand Baptists get their name from John the Baptist, Lutherans because they followed Martin Luther, but what does Catholic mean? Really I ask because I don't know. I have great respect and love for my Catholic friends but never thought to ask them.

We consider the Church the universal church. Catholic with a little c

[jennsmile]

We consider the Church the universal church. Catholic with a little c

 

 

I forgot about the little "c." Will you forgive me? I know I have read that once before on the boards.

[Rivka]

Um, dumb question that I am too lazy to find an answer for elsewhere...where exactly do these churches get their funding from, if not asking for "tithes" from members?

 

Our church (Unitarian-Universalist) invites members to pledge that they will donate a certain amount of money to the church in the upcoming year. The amount of the pledge is voluntary and is kept private between the individual and the church treasurer or stewardship leader. Some people prefer not to pledge and just put money in the collection plate. You don't have to pledge, or give money at all, to be a member in good standing.

 

Our Board takes the amount of pledged money, adds in an estimate of how much loose money is likely to come in the collection plate, figures for certain standing fundraisers like the church auction, and then draws up a budget for the upcoming year. Then we hold our breath hoping that all the pledged money actually comes in. :tongue_smilie:

 

We also have an Endowment fund which is invested money that people have left the church in their wills. A certain percentage of the Endowment (I think it's 4.5%) can be used each year for church expenses. We have a capital fund which is kept in reserve for things like the roof needing to be replaced.

[MamaSheep]

...

 

Oh. So really, its all the same thing. ?? I don't see any difference. Either you are voluntarily paying tithes or you are voluntarily supporting a bunch of fund raisers. Which most people don't really like, anyway. Our church only does fundraisers for specific things - missions trips, fine arts department funds, etc. Not just 'for the church' in general. People around here hate fund raisers - half the time, they would just rather give you the money. :)

Of course, I'm also not from a church that is heavy on giving tithes. They encourage it, of course, but it's not super strict or anything like that. Members can be members if they don't tithe, etc. It's really no one's business but the individual's - well, and God's. ;)

 

Well it shakes out similarly in some ways (funding gets contributed to the church)but the underlying reasoning is a little different, I think. I was really just describing what I've observed in other churches with the fundraising and whatnot, which is different from how our church does things (as I described in another post) and so it's quite possible I don't fully understand or appreciate how all that works out. I'm not a big fan of fundraisers, myself, and I'm glad we just give the money...lol. But I wouldn't say the church is "super strict" about it. Nobody has ever come and asked me for my tithing. We have a lesson about it in Sunday school classes now and again--like when we're studying the Old Testament and read about Abraham paying a tithe to Melchizedek, or studying the New Testament and read about the early church pooling their resources, or studying the Doctrine and Covenants and we read that revelation on the subject I referred to earlier. And now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that Malachi passage is quoted, or at least referred to, in the Book of Mormon. So that would give us one lesson in each year of the four year rotation...huh. Hadn't thought about that. Anyway, it's not something we're thumped over the head with frequently or particularly forcefully. I think organizing and supporting fundraisers would be far more intrusive and annoying. But it's entirely possible that's just me...heh...

[Parrothead]

I forgot about the little "c." Will you forgive me? I know I have read that once before on the boards.

Nothing to forgive. :grouphug:

[MamaSheep]

I did read that post. I'm just hoping the two people I addressed will respond for themselves.

 

That's totally understandable. I see one has chimed in, but I think the other is in Australia (if I remember right) and on a different time zone, but I'm hoping she'll chime in too. I will say, though, that I read their comments differently than several people here seemed to understand them, and I think it was probably because I've had the same lessons at church that they have (they were both LDS like me), so I was more aware of the context they'd most likely be thinking of in making remarks like that, and I would guess that they just didn't think deeply about how their choice of words would sound out of context.

 

 

I can't wrap my head around the idea that God can't/won't provide for poor people who really and truly might not be able to tithe, without great hardship, to a church. Not everyone belongs to the Mormon church, either, or to any church that is able to do what yours does for its members. It's just not an ideal world we live in.

 

No, that's not an idea I could wrap my head around either, and it's certainly not what the LDS church teaches. (Which is partly why I'm pretty confident the other LDS posters didn't mean it that way.) And no, not everyone belongs to our church, and not all churches can do what ours does. But the reason our church is able to do those things is because so many of the members (though certainly not all) are so willing to give of their resources and time and talent, including the tithe. You're right, it's not an ideal world. But the original question was "what would you do", and what I would do, personally, is pay my tithe, little as it might be (ten percent of little is even less, but is considered a full tithe--actually no contribution at all is considered a full tithe if one has no income, because 10% of nothing is nothing). And then I would go talk to the bishop about the kind of help I might need to meet my other obligations, knowing I would be taken care of. I know it's not an option that's open to everyone, but it is what I would do, which is what the question was.

 

 

 

Thank you for explaining how it's done at your church.

 

 

 

I'm not sure here if you are referring to the statement you quoted about fundraisers and whatnot, or to my earlier post about tithing and other contributions in the LDS church. Just to be clear, my comment about fundraisers, etc. was from my observations about how other churches come up with funding, and I fully admit that it's not something I have in-depth knowledge of, because it's different from how we do things. I just wanted to clarify that. Um. Thanks. :)

[TravelingChris]

My church is not a UU church like Rivka's, but the procedure is basically the same. We give pledges here, the finance commitee budgets, and we go from there. Since we were new this year, we were giving without a pledge but next year, we have pledged a certain amount,

 

I would have a very hard time with a church continually harping about money and then buying very expensive things. In our church, many of the things that make it look nice are extra gifts of the congregation. Every week we have a new flower arrangement and that is paid by someone in the congregation. We can sign up for a specific week, pay the price, and get flowers in honor of or in memory of someone or something. We have people pay for the poinsettias we have on Christmas Eve and Day (this year) and I have to say, that buying poinsettias for Christmas or Easter Lilies for Easter have been done in all regular churches we have been part of. I am a flower lover so I always love to buy plants to make the church beautiful.

 

To the OP, I suggest we all tell you which type of churches we have experience with that don't require tithing or check how much you contribute as some kind of requirement for church membership or attendance. I have been a member of PC(USA), PCA, and UM churches and none of them have ever conditioned membership or attendance on giving. Most of them have giving sermons in either October or November so she would be free of even that kind of sermon at this time of year.

[Heidi]

That's a short question with a ginormous answer, but I'll try to give a condensed (but as acurate as possible) answer.

 

Jesus is in the name of our church because it's His church. He's in no way a "lesser" God. He is our Savior. The Creator of the Earth. The Only Begotten Son of the Father.

 

WE, humans, are His joint-heirs (Romans 8:17). What dixd Christ inherit from His Father?

 

God didn't create man to be His eternal grovelling underlings. He wants us to experience the joy and happiness of Eternal Life that He has, just as any loving parent here on Earth hopes to see their children grow up into responsible adults who share in the joys of adulthood with them.

 

:iagree: thanks xuzi

[gardenmom5]

Basically? That god was disappointed in her for not beating this thing already.

 

(cynicism alert) Of course, it could also have been a way for her to garner sympathy or manipulate. She knew I was agnostic, though, so I'm not exactly sure what she thought it would do. I tried to answer her in a Christian way rather than the way I wanted to which was more like "stop passing the buck on this and go to the ****ed meetings like you're supposed to. it's not 'the devil' that's buying the vodka - it's YOU!!" But that's a thread derailment, and I don't really want to get in to all the ins and outs of addiction.

sometimes your cyncial way is the more "christain" way. Jesus got rather physical and bodily threw the money changers out of the Temple.

 

I know some people are sincere in their efforts to change, and beat themselves up because they aren't making as much progress as fast as they want. and as you say, other's use it as an excuse.

[MamaSheep]

I have an honest question. Don't Mormons believe that Jesus is a "lesser" God? Why is your church named after him if you don't consider him an equal? Why don't you just name it The Church of Godhead or something?

 

I know other people have already answered this, but I figured I'd toss in my two cents too. Sorry if it's overkill. :)

 

Mormons believe that Jesus is the same being as Jehovah in the Old Testament. He is the Creator, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is also the Only Begotten Son of the Father, born to the virgin Mary, and He is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. He is fully divine, and absolutely not a "lesser" God. He does, however, voluntarily submit His divine will to that of the Father, whom we believe to be a separate individual, not just another expression of the same being. This isn't because Jesus is less divine, or a lesser being, it's just because He acknowledges the authority of the Father.

 

Jesus is in the name of the church because it is His church. We believe that the church is literally His organization, literally set up by Him, and literally directed by Him on an ongoing basis. It belongs to Him. We belong to Him. We are His people, gathered into an organized body, guided by Him in accordance with His gospel. We look to Him for salvation. Also, He told us to call it that: "For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." (D&C 115:4) So we do. ;)

 

Don't you believe that by doing all these things you will be "Gods" of your own universe someday and have millions of kids?

 

Hmmm...I think this is actually sort of a two-part question. The first part is "Don't you believe that by doing all these things you will....", and the second part is, "Don't you believe that .... you will be "Gods" of your own universe someday and have millions of kids?"

 

So first things first. The things that we do are (or at least are supposed to be) expressions of our faith in Christ. Being a follower of Christ is not a spectator sport. He expects us to "follow Him", to get up off our bums and participate in working toward His goals, not just sit back and enjoy the show. The church does not teach that we "earn" any particular future destiny "by doing all these things". Salvation and eternal life are not things that can be "earned" through good behavior. They are only available to us because of, and through, Christ's sacrifice on our behalf. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. All of us. But we can be forgiven of our sins because Jesus paid the price in His suffering, and His death on the cross. He asks that we have faith in him, repent, and follow Him, and love one another and we try to do that because we love Him, not because we think it will "earn" us a place in heaven. Forgiveness, salvation, the gift of eternal life--these things can only come in and through Christ. That said, what we do with our lives is certainly one expression of our faith in Christ, and the Bible does say that men will be judged by their deeds, so we don't think that what we do is entirely irrelevant; God does care what we do and how we treat people. But we don't believe that we earn some kind of cosmic brownie points by doing good deeds and at the end we get to cash them in for the fabulous prize behind door number 1. I didn't loan the truck to my neighbor this afternoon so God would pat me on the back and put another tally on my slate. I loaned it to her because she needed it, and seeing her need how could I not help? So no, we're not running around working to earn Godhood.

 

 

(To be continued.)

[MamaSheep]

(continued...sorry, it got too long and I don't want to cut any of the quotes to make it shorter.)

 

 

That said, we do believe that some people can become gods through Christ. It's a very Biblical teaching in my opinion. Here are some passages to consider (I'm using a KJV).

 

 

Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as

we are the a

offspring

of God

, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto b

gold

, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s c

device

."

This is from Paul, on Mars Hill. Paul argued that we are the offspring of God (also we are created "in His image"). Offspring grow up to be like their parents.

 

 

Galatians 4:7 "Wherefore thou art no more a a

servant

, but a b

son

; and

if a son, then an c

heir

of God through Christ

."

 

 

Romans 8: 17 "And if children, then heirs; a

heirs

of God, and joint-

heirs with Christ

; if so be that we b

suffer

with him, that

we may be also glorified together

."

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face

beholding as in a a

glass

the b

glory

of the Lord, are changed into the same c

image

from d

glory

to glory

, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

 

 

 

Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the a

unity

of the faith, and of the b

knowledge

of the Son of God, unto

a c

perfect

man

, unto

the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

:"

 

 

 

Matthew 5:48 "

a

Be

ye therefore b

perfect

, even as your c

Father

which is in heaven is d

perfect

."

 

 

 

1 John 3:2 "Beloved,

now are we the a

sons

of God

, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but

we know that, when he shall b

appear

, we shall be c

like

him; for we shall d

see

him as he is

."

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a a

glass

, b

darkly

;

but then face to face

: now I know in part; but

then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

 

 

Revelation 3:21 "To him that a

overcometh

will

I grant to b

sit

with me in my c

throne

, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne

."

 

 

 

John 17:21-23 "

That they all may be

one

; as thou,

Father

, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be

one

in us

: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

22 And

the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be a

one

, even as we are b

one

:

 

23 I in them, and thou in me,

that they may be made a

perfect

in one

; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast b

loved

them, as thou hast loved me.

Ok, so let's look at these. The Bible tells us that we have the potential to be heirs with Christ, and glorified together with Christ. It says we can see the glory of Christ, and receive the same glory, as alike as if looking into a mirror (glass). We are the children of God, and we will see Him and "will be like Him". We can see Him face to face, and know Him as He knows us. With some, Christ will share His throne (authority and power) in the same way that the Father shares His throne (authority and power) with the Son. And they can be united with God in the same way that the Son is one with the Father, and become perfect.

 

So we refer to these people--who have the same inheritance as Christ (who is divine), the same divine glory as Christ, who see and know as Christ sees and knows, who are, in fact "like him", and who sit with Christ in the divine throne (figuratively), and are one with God--we refer to them as gods. Even this is not entirely without Biblical precedent. Jesus said this (quoting a Psalm):

 

 

(John 10) "33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for a

blasphemy

; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself b

God

.

 

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are a

gods

?

 

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath a

sanctified

, and b

sent

into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the c

Son

of God?"

 

 

Basically he's saying that if it's ok to call those "unto whom the word of God came" by the label of "gods" (and it is, the scripture he's quoting is valid; it "cannot be broken"), then it is infinitely more appropriate for Jesus to call Himself God, because He is literally the Son of the Father, sanctified and sent into the world by the Father.

 

So to me, this belief that man can become "like Him", and that those who do can legitimately be referred to as "gods" is highly Biblical. However, it should also be understood that we believe that any of this is ONLY possible in, and through Christ's grace and atonement. It is NOT something we can earn, or become on our own. It's also important to understand that those who receive that great blessing will still be subject to the Father. He will still be their God. We believe the title "God of gods" is literal. And yes, those who are "like Him" will do the kinds of things God does, like create stuff, and have children whom they will love.

 

 

I hope that helps explain.

 

I'm genuinely curious about this, because Jesus is in the name of your church.

 

I love genuine curiosity. :) Thanks for asking.

[MamaSheep]

This and this probably explains our beliefs about Jesus being the Son of God better than I can while I am trying to clean house, and take care of a sick kid. We don't really consider him lesser but he his God's Son. As for becoming Gods this I think answers that from a Mormon point of view. I realize there are other views on the internet. ;)

 

And because I really don't know could you explain the meaning of catholic? I understand Baptists get their name from John the Baptist, Lutherans because they followed Martin Luther, but what does catholic mean? Really I ask because I don't know. I have great respect and love for my catholic friends but never thought to ask them.

 

I'm pretty sure that Baptists get their name from the practice of baptism, not from John the Baptist. Does anyone know if that's right? I was under the impression that it came down through "Anabaptists", who were called that because they re-baptized converts who'd already been baptized in another church. Am I way off base here?

[Colleen in NS]

I was really just describing what I've observed in other churches with the fundraising and whatnot, which is different from how our church does things (as I described in another post)

 

OK, now this clears up my confusion at TexasRachel's post, lol! I thought you were talking about the LDS church.

 

That's totally understandable. I see one has chimed in, but I think the other is in Australia (if I remember right) and on a different time zone, but I'm hoping she'll chime in too.

 

She has posted a couple of times in the last few hours, so I'm hoping she'll pop in here.

 

I'm not sure here if you are referring to the statement you quoted about fundraisers and whatnot, or to my earlier post about tithing and other contributions in the LDS church. Just to be clear, my comment about fundraisers, etc. was from my observations about how other churches come up with funding...

 

I was referring to your post that I quoted. Thanks for clarifying again. :)

 

And thank you to those who continue to write about how their churches get funding. It's eye-opening to see how other churches do it.

[MamaSheep]

OK, now this clears up my confusion at TexasRachel's post, lol! I thought you were talking about the LDS church.

 

 

 

She has posted a couple of times in the last few hours, so I'm hoping she'll pop in here.

 

 

 

I was referring to your post that I quoted. Thanks for clarifying again. :)

 

And thank you to those who continue to write about how their churches get funding. It's eye-opening to see how other churches do it.

 

 

Oh good, I'm glad I said something then...lol. I had actually explained some things about how the LDS church handles things in an earlier post (#116) and I wasn't sure if that was what you meant. Whew! Glad we cleared that up...:D

[TranquilMind]

Could you translate? I'm not getting your meaning.

What I mean by that is that one needs to be in church with strong believers, because you won't always be strong yourself. If you get off alone, like a lone sheep, you are easy prey for the enemy to feed you all the world's lies and you get away even if a little from what you truly know in your faith. It happens to everyone. It's happened to me.

 

You really need the group of believers and the "food" of God's Word on a regular basis to stay strong in your faith, in my experience.

[TranquilMind]

Well said. We've been in the same situation. I believe that God wants our hearts, not just our pocketbooks.

 

Mark 12:33 -- "To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Samuel 15:22 -- "But Samuel replied: 'Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.'"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proverbs 21:3 -- "To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice."

That's true. But what you do with your money is an important indicator of your faith.

 

It isn't a totally divorced, separate area.

[TranquilMind]

We're Lutheran and do not tithe. In the congregations we've belonged to, money is never mentioned. You know the "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" quote. I know the church building has to pay their electric bill, but I really don't think God needs a certain percentage of our income.

 

We could meet in a field or in a tent and still be a church.

 

As far as the poster mentioning the early church giving away all their possessions...I thought they also went nuts and stoned their leader (isn't that in Acts). :confused:

No, you may be confusing the stoning of Stephen with something else?

[TranquilMind]

May I piggyback a question onto this? I have the impression (which may not be accurate) that many donate their tithe directly to their church. Or does this tithe include donations to other community organizations?

A tithe does go to your local "storehouse" (church). When you give to other organizations, those are offerings, but they aren't tithes.

[Myeightkiddies]

Deleted it as it may sound confrontational. I just had a genuine curiosity and wanted to be sure that I was reading something on the net properly. Disregard my question. Thanks.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Myeightkiddies

[Mama2Many4]

We consider the Church the universal church. Catholic with a little c

 

:iagree: What she said. I've been off watching Finding Nemo with my kidlets.:D

[Mama2Many4]

(continued...sorry, it got too long and I don't want to cut any of the quotes to make it shorter.)

 

 

That said, we do believe that some people can become gods through Christ. It's a very Biblical teaching in my opinion. Here are some passages to consider (I'm using a KJV).

 

Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as

we are the a

offspring

of God

, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto b

gold

, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s c

device

."

This is from Paul, on Mars Hill. Paul argued that we are the offspring of God (also we are created "in His image"). Offspring grow up to be like their parents.

 

Galatians 4:7 "Wherefore thou art no more a a

servant

, but a b

son

; and

if a son, then an c

heir

of God through Christ

."

 

 

Romans 8: 17 "And if children, then heirs; a

heirs

of God, and joint-

heirs with Christ

; if so be that we b

suffer

with him, that

we may be also glorified together

."

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face

beholding as in a a

glass

the b

glory

of the Lord, are changed into the same c

image

from d

glory

to glory

, even as by the Spirit of the Lord."

 

 

 

Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the a

unity

of the faith, and of the b

knowledge

of the Son of God, unto

a c

perfect

man

, unto

the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

:"

 

 

 

Matthew 5:48 "

a

Be

ye therefore b

perfect

, even as your c

Father

which is in heaven is d

perfect

."

 

 

 

1 John 3:2 "Beloved,

now are we the a

sons

of God

, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but

we know that, when he shall b

appear

, we shall be c

like

him; for we shall d

see

him as he is

."

 

 

 

1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a a

glass

, b

darkly

;

but then face to face

: now I know in part; but

then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

 

 

Revelation 3:21 "To him that a

overcometh

will

I grant to b

sit

with me in my c

throne

, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne

."

 

 

 

John 17:21-23 "

That they all may be

one

; as thou,

Father

, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be

one

in us

: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

22 And

the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be a

one

, even as we are b

one

:

 

23 I in them, and thou in me,

that they may be made a

perfect

in one

; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast b

loved

them, as thou hast loved me.

Ok, so let's look at these. The Bible tells us that we have the potential to be heirs with Christ, and glorified together with Christ. It says we can see the glory of Christ, and receive the same glory, as alike as if looking into a mirror (glass). We are the children of God, and we will see Him and "will be like Him". We can see Him face to face, and know Him as He knows us. With some, Christ will share His throne (authority and power) in the same way that the Father shares His throne (authority and power) with the Son. And they can be united with God in the same way that the Son is one with the Father, and become perfect.

 

So we refer to these people--who have the same inheritance as Christ (who is divine), the same divine glory as Christ, who see and know as Christ sees and knows, who are, in fact "like him", and who sit with Christ in the divine throne (figuratively), and are one with God--we refer to them as gods. Even this is not entirely without Biblical precedent. Jesus said this (quoting a Psalm):

 

(John 10) "33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for a

blasphemy

; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself b

God

.

 

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are a

gods

?

 

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

 

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath a

sanctified

, and b

sent

into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the c

Son

of God?"

 

 

Basically he's saying that if it's ok to call those "unto whom the word of God came" by the label of "gods" (and it is, the scripture he's quoting is valid; it "cannot be broken"), then it is infinitely more appropriate for Jesus to call Himself God, because He is literally the Son of the Father, sanctified and sent into the world by the Father.

 

So to me, this belief that man can become "like Him", and that those who do can legitimately be referred to as "gods" is highly Biblical. However, it should also be understood that we believe that any of this is ONLY possible in, and through Christ's grace and atonement. It is NOT something we can earn, or become on our own. It's also important to understand that those who receive that great blessing will still be subject to the Father. He will still be their God. We believe the title "God of gods" is literal. And yes, those who are "like Him" will do the kinds of things God does, like create stuff, and have children whom they will love.

 

 

I hope that helps explain.

 

 

 

I love genuine curiosity. :) Thanks for asking.

 

 

Thanks so much for your in-depth reply! You hear so many different things on television and internet, I was curious.

 

Still love my Catholic faith though. ;)

 

God Bless you! :001_smile:

[QueenCat]

A tithe does go to your local "storehouse" (church). When you give to other organizations, those are offerings, but they aren't tithes.

 

For some, the tithe includes what is given to other organizations. Others don't count in the tithe what is given outside of their specific church. All depends on their view of tithes and offerings.

[simka2]

I know other people have already answered this, but I figured I'd toss in my two cents too. Sorry if it's overkill. :)

 

Mormons believe that Jesus is the same being as Jehovah in the Old Testament. He is the Creator, and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is also the Only Begotten Son of the Father, born to the virgin Mary, and He is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. He is fully divine, and absolutely not a "lesser" God. He does, however, voluntarily submit His divine will to that of the Father, whom we believe to be a separate individual, not just another expression of the same being. This isn't because Jesus is less divine, or a lesser being, it's just because He acknowledges the authority of the Father.

 

 

I apologize if this has been answered and I missed it. If they are separate Gods (God the creator/savior and God the Father) how to you avoid polytheism?

 

No, snark. I am just trying to work this out in my head. ;)

[....]

No, you may be confusing the stoning of Stephen with something else?

 

Yes, I think I have merged a couple of stories into one (in my mind).

[MamaSheep]

I apologize if this has been answered and I missed it. If they are separate Gods (God the creator/savior and God the Father) how to you avoid polytheism?

 

No, snark. I am just trying to work this out in my head. ;)

 

No problem. I can understand that.

 

There's also the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead, who we understand to be a person, not just a "force". So there are three separate divine beings, not just two.

 

How do we avoid polytheism? Hmmm....you know, I think we focus more on having as accurate an understanding of the nature of God as described in revelation from God as possible than we do on whether we do or do not fit someone's definition of any particular "-ism".

 

In my own opinion, the LDS view of God meshes SO much better with what I actually read in the Bible than does the "traditional" idea of the "Trinity".

 

One passage (of many) that is telling to me is in John 14 when Jesus says he will pray the Father to send the Holy Ghost (Comforter) to be with his people after he is gone. It makes NO sense to me that a single being would ask himself to send himself after he had left. Or ask one part of himself to send another part after a third part went somewhere else. I find it rather nonsensical. The LDS view fits much better, in my opinion. One divine being asking another to send a third. It's the plain sense of the thing. The LDS view also makes more sense when Jesus says, "Not my will but thine be done," in Gethsemane. And when Jesus says he is going to ascend to the Father, or that the Father sent him. And when Jesus prays that his people will be one, AS he is one with the Father (I'm pretty sure I quoted at least part of that one earlier too), it makes a LOT more sense that he means to ask that his followers become individual people who are perfectly united in purpose and perfectly submissive to the will of the Father than it does to think that he means for them to become merged into a single being of one substance with three....parts? Expressions? Persons--but not individuals? Whatever. In chapter 5 of John Jesus says that he came not to do his own will but that of the Father (again with the separate wills). Then he says, "If I bear witness of myself my witness is not true," and proceeds to list the Father, along with John the Baptist, as a separate witness of the truth of what he is saying. That ONLY makes sense to me with the LDS understanding of the nature of God. And that's just off the top of my head, and mostly from John. It's all over in the Bible. The more I read the Bible, the more convinced I am that the Trinity is an incorrect concept, and that the idea of three separate individuals operating in unity is the only sensible way to understand the way the Bible talks about them.

 

Actually, the more I look into the development of the concept of the Trinity from a historic perspective, the more convinced I am that it is a result of undue influence of Neo-Platonic philosophies on Christian doctrine. But that's a whole other ball of wax, and not one I really want to delve into here.

 

I would say that to us there is only "one God" in that the Godhead as a group form a single divine governing body. I might say that there is "one God" in that the Father's will is supreme within the Godhead, and the Son voluntarily submits His will to that of the Father, and the Holy Ghost testifies of the Father and the Son, but all three are equally divine. I can see why some people don't think this fits the technical definition of "monotheistic". I'm ok with that. I don't personally care what "label" you stick on it, if it's truth. And I think it is. "True" is more important to me than "monotheistic". I don't think our beliefs exactly fit a "traditional" understanding of "polytheistic" either, in that we don't think there are lots of competing gods and you can pick and choose which ones to worship--the three members of the Godhead are in complete unity, and the Holy Spirit testifies of the Father and the Son; the Son advises us to listen to the Holy Spirit and seek the Father (and provides us the means whereby we may enter the Father's presence); The Father sends the Holy Spirit to guide and instruct us, and tells us to follow the Son. You don't really get one without getting all of them. I don't know...I haven't found an "-ism" label that I thought accurately and completely described our beliefs about the Godhead. Maybe someone needs to coin a new one. But really, I'm more hung up on understanding what God says about it than what label man chooses to attach to it.

 

Anyway, that's my point of view. I don't think I've seen church leaders spend much time on the "-ism" label issue one way or the other. It's kind of a non-issue in the church, I think. I don't know if that helps answer your question or not.

Edited December 16, 2011 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

Thanks so much for your in-depth reply! You hear so many different things on television and internet, I was curious.

 

Still love my Catholic faith though. ;)

 

God Bless you! :001_smile:

 

You're welcome. And you're right, there is a LOT of stuff about us out there, and only some of it is particularly accurate. Some of it is just distorted, and some of it I have no idea how they even got there from here...lol. I really appreciate you asking for real information. I'm a big fan of "curious" myself.

 

I'm not trying to pull you away from your Catholic faith. Just answer your question. ;)

 

God bless you too. :)

[MamaSheep]

Deleted it as it may sound confrontational. I just had a genuine curiosity and wanted to be sure that I was reading something on the net properly. Disregard my question. Thanks.

 

Lol...now I'm curious what your question is...lol. I will disregard, but "genuine curiosity" makes my curiosity bone itch to no end...lol.

[Heidi]

I apologize if this has been answered and I missed it. If they are separate Gods (God the creator/savior and God the Father) how to you avoid polytheism?

 

No, snark. I am just trying to work this out in my head. ;)

 

Mamasheep is sure to give a better/clearer/more in depth answer, but I need to practice explaining my beliefs too, so here it goes!

 

They are seperate Beings, but the key is that they are one in purpose.

 

God the Father is our Ruler, Creator, and the literal Father of our spirits.

 

God the Son, or Jesus Christ, is also a spirit child of God the Father, and the Only Begotten in the flesh of God the Father. "He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth." He is our Savior. Because He is our Savior, He is also refered to as our Father, and we His sons and daughters, but in a different sense than God the Father is our Father.

 

God the Holy Ghost is also a member of the Godhead, only He does not have a glorified, resurrected body like God the Father and God the Son, but is a spirit. In this way God can dwell in us. He is the Spirit.

 

We speak of Them as if They are one because They ARE one in every way except in person. They are God; They make up the Godhead; They are one in purpose.

 

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.." Gen. 1:26.

"Man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Gen 3:22

..and MANY scriptures in the New Testament when Christ speaks of or to His Father.

 

Polytheism is a belief in multiple gods that each have their own authority or power. This is obviously very different than what LDS believe.

 

Hopefully that is clear & correct?

Edited December 16, 2011 by hmsmith

[mommaduck]

I'm only on page four, so I don't know if this has been addressed or not:

 

The OP's person said that she can't "afford" to attend. It doesn't sound like she specifically mentioned tithing, but rather that that was merely the presumption.

 

Four of my siblings grew up in SC. They went to church through their childhood and quit as adults for various reasons. A big one was "we can't afford it". It wasn't just tithe. It was being able to afford Sunday clothes, a culture where people had their everyday car and their "Sunday car", etc. Being poor is looked down on in some churches and it makes it difficult to bear to attend.

[MamaSheep]

So I have a suggestion. I'm more than happy to answer questions about LDS beliefs, and I think the other LDS ladies here are too. But I don't want that to take over this perfectly interesting thread about tithing and donations and church finances and whatnot. I'm thinking that if people have more non-tithing related questions about LDS belief it might be a good idea to start a separate thread. If you do and I miss it, just PM me and point me in the right direction and I'm more than happy to respond. I just think this thread might not be the right place for that kind of rabbit trail. But that's just a suggestion, do with it as you will. ;)

[sewingmama]

can't wrap my head around the idea that God can't/won't provide for poor people who really and truly might not be able to tithe, without great hardship, to a church.

 

Everybody can tithe - read the story of the widow's mite in the Bible. Even if you only earn 10 cents you can still give 1 cent to the Lord. It's a sliding scale. In LDS church history when the people had no money they still tithed - instead of cash they gave 10% of any "increase" they had. So if you were a farmer for instance and your chickens laid 20 eggs - you took two of those eggs and gave them to the church to put in the storehouse to use for their purposes KWIM.

 

I probably didn't choose my words carefully when I said that God can't bless you when you don't tithe. God can do whatever he wants - he can certainly bless poor people who don't tithe if that is his choice. However there isn't any doubt to me that paying tithing does bring forth blessings from the Lord that might not be as forthcoming otherwise.

[Colleen in NS]

Everybody can tithe - read the story of the widow's mite in the Bible. Even if you only earn 10 cents you can still give 1 cent to the Lord. It's a sliding scale. In LDS church history when the people had no money they still tithed - instead of cash they gave 10% of any "increase" they had. So if you were a farmer for instance and your chickens laid 20 eggs - you took two of those eggs and gave them to the church to put in the storehouse to use for their purposes KWIM.

 

I probably didn't choose my words carefully when I said that God can't bless you when you don't tithe. God can do whatever he wants - he can certainly bless poor people who don't tithe if that is his choice. However there isn't any doubt to me that paying tithing does bring forth blessings from the Lord that might not be as forthcoming otherwise.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I think the part I bolded is too simplistic, but I'm glad you came back to clarify your previous thoughts.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Colleen in NS
grammar

[MamaSheep]

Thanks for clarifying. I think the part I bolded is a too simplistic, but I'm glad you came back to clarify your previous thoughts.

 

How so? That would be considered a full tithe in the LDS church.

[Myeightkiddies]

Lol...now I'm curious what your question is...lol. I will disregard, but "genuine curiosity" makes my curiosity bone itch to no end...lol.

 

A couple of ladies read the questions before I deleted the post and were kind enough to respond through PMs.

 

I didn't mean to post and delete. I re-read my post and thought it could be misinterpreted into something negative. I didn't want that, so I removed it.

[Colleen in NS]

How so? That would be considered a full tithe in the LDS church.

 

I also bolded "Everybody can tithe." I think that combined with the other bolded part is quite idealistic. I understand, from all your explanations here, how the LDS church cares for its members, and I think that's wonderful. But not everyone is LDS, yet there are many poor people around who really cannot donate 10% without it being a tremendous hardship. Therefore, I do not agree that "everybody can tithe." The truth is, if someone (again perhaps not in the LDS church) is only making ten cents, they have much bigger concerns rather than giving one cent to a church.

[PeacefulChaos]

Everybody can tithe - read the story of the widow's mite in the Bible. Even if you only earn 10 cents you can still give 1 cent to the Lord. It's a sliding scale. In LDS church history when the people had no money they still tithed - instead of cash they gave 10% of any "increase" they had. So if you were a farmer for instance and your chickens laid 20 eggs - you took two of those eggs and gave them to the church to put in the storehouse to use for their purposes KWIM.

 

I probably didn't choose my words carefully when I said that God can't bless you when you don't tithe. God can do whatever he wants - he can certainly bless poor people who don't tithe if that is his choice. However there isn't any doubt to me that paying tithing does bring forth blessings from the Lord that might not be as forthcoming otherwise.

 

:iagree: completely. :)

(oh, and ftr, I'm not LDS) :D

[MamaSheep]

I also bolded "Everybody can tithe." I think that combined with the other bolded part is quite idealistic. I understand, from all your explanations here, how the LDS church cares for its members, and I think that's wonderful. But not everyone is LDS, yet there are many poor people around who really cannot donate 10% without it being a tremendous hardship. Therefore, I do not agree that "everybody can tithe." The truth is, if someone (again perhaps not in the LDS church) is only making ten cents, they have much bigger concerns rather than giving one cent to a church.

 

Oh, ok I see what you're saying. Thanks for explaining. :)

[MamaSheep]

A couple of ladies read the questions before I deleted the post and were kind enough to respond through PMs.

 

I didn't mean to post and delete. I re-read my post and thought it could be misinterpreted into something negative. I didn't want that, so I removed it.

 

It is sometimes hard to communicate clearly online, it's true. And I totally understand. Don't worry, my cat and I shall both survive the curiosity. ;)

 

Ok, you caught, me, I don't even have a cat. I'm glad you got your questions answered. :)