Copywrite ethics poll

[Momling]

Would you copy educational materials which you bought for another of your own kids if there is a "no copying" policy printed in the book?

 

Edited to add: Errr... Copyright. Don't you hate it when you misspell words in the title of a post?

Edited December 12, 2011 by Momling

[Whereneverever]

Would you copy educational materials which you bought for another of your own kids if there is a "no copying" policy printed in the book?

 

No. Never.

[Jenny in Florida]

No.

 

The only "special circumstance" I can imagine is that the book is out of print or otherwise unavailable to purchase.

[TravelingChris]

I would not and voted in the poll. This isn't a hard question for me.

[JeneralMom]

99.9% of the time I would not, but I voted "yes, under certain circumstances" because if I had, for example, an old textbook that I used extensively in my teaching, it was out of print, and my copy was falling apart, I might photocopy it.

[LucyStoner]

To sell (either the copy or the original after making a copy for us) or give to a family so they did not have to buy? No.

 

To make a copy or pdf for personal use like work sheets so my son can redo them later to practice/reinforce? Yes. Same thing goes for copying for my notes. Sometimes I will make a copy or PDF for me to read and then write notes of the questions to ask my son and underline words to verify he knows them. He reads from the original and when the assignment is done, I shred my copy and may delete the PDF if I don't see a need to keep it.

 

A no duplication to sell copyrighted material policy is understandable and in sync with the law. Companies that say you can't resell their books are in violation of the law and companies who expect you to not ever make a single copy for you to note up are just silly.

[Night Elf]

To be honest, I cannot think of any curriculum I've used that had a specific 'no copy under any circumstances' statement, unless it was written somewhere in the workbook that I didn't see. For example, I do not read the page that has the publishing information. It has never occurred to me to do so. But yes I would copy pages for my children. When I buy a book, I consider that book to be purchased for my personal use whether I have 1 child or 10 children.

[myfatherslily]

No. But I can't say never, ever, ever. I have copied just a few pages for specialized use. :blushing:

 

I would not have children share one book *unless* the author specifically stated that I may. Otherwise it violates copyright even if there isn't a specific "no copyright" statement.

 

Since children are individual humans and not just sub-parts of me, a consumable book that's being used by DS1 may not be also be used by DS2. By nature, it's intended to be consumed by an individual. Even if it costs me, the purchaser, more money.

 

A school teacher may not make 20 copies of one book for her students to save the school money. Each child must have their own.

Edited December 12, 2011 by myfatherslily

[Grover]

I have copied some books because we have used them so much they were falling apart, so I copied them and bound the copy for us to use and put the original on the shelf. I have also copied individual pages from a few books if I think DS is going to need / want to redo them... but I'm pretty sure the law (here anyway) says you can copy 10% or 1 chapter of a book so I'm ok with that. I also copy CDs that I want the kids to use so I can keep the original safe - I feel ok with that too, but I'm not doing it in order to sell them, just so I have a copy I can actually use if they ruin the other one.

[jenn&charles]

No. I wouldn't.

[Skadi]

Of course I would use it again. I don't think copyright law works that way. It's for personal use. For you and your family.

 

It'd be like saying that you should buy a new copy of a book every time you want one of your kids to read it. That would be ridiculous. It's okay to re-use copyrighted materials as long as you are not distributing or selling it outside of your personal use, IMHO.

Edited December 12, 2011 by Skadi

[regentrude]

No. A lot of work goes into developing materials, and the authors should be paid for their labor.

Btw: the word is copyright. The term has nothing to do with writing.

[happyhomemaker25]

I have a Saxon workbook that I just used the tests in. I do copy the tests for one of my kids. That's the only thing I ever photocopied out of the Saxon workbook though.

I don't think I've ever knowingly copied anything else that I was not supposed to.

[Parrothead]

No. I don't think copyright law works that way. It's for personal use. For you and your family.

 

It'd be like saying that you should buy a new copy of a book every time you want one of your kids to read it. That would be ridiculous. It's okay to re-use copyrighted materials as long as you are not distributing or selling it outside of your personal use, IMHO.

:iagree:

[Bensmom]

I think there is a difference between coping a worksheet or few pages and copying an entire book. Last year I went to our local office supply store wanting to copy/enlarge three pages of a book. I think they said they can copy up to half of any book for educational (non-resale) purposes.

[Momling]

Btw: the word is copyright. The term has nothing to do with writing.

 

Yes, I know that. I'll have to look in shame at the title forever, as you can't fix them.

[Dmmetler]

Since part of my income, in the past, has been derived from writing music curriculum materials, I'm more than a little sensitive about copyright infringement. I understand the "I only have $100 in my budget this year" concern-but if every teacher and every school buys one copy of a $2 octavo (for which I might make $.10 or so) and photocopies it, instead of the one copy for every 2 students in the choir that is required by copyright law, it REALLY makes a difference to me as a composer/arranger!

 

Having said that, I did mark "Yes under special circumstances"- I often allow DD to work in the book rather than copy onto another piece of paper, and if there's not enough space, I've been known to make a photocopy so DD can cut out the Latin sentences (or whatever), paste onto the page, and then write her translation underneath. Obviously, reselling books isn't a priority for me at this point.

[Daisy]

Mostly no. I have copied a page or two from a coloring book or workbook when I wanted a back-up copy for possible mistakes, or if I needed something shrunk or enlarged in order to paste it into our history notebooking pages.

 

I have on rare occasion called the publisher and asked if I could make copies out of a book. One example was our R&S Math book. I photocopied and enlarged the pages for my dysgraphic son to write on. R&S was fine with that but thanked me for asking.

 

If you are copying more than a few pages, it is appropriate to contact the publisher.

 

And it is absolutely wrong to copy consumable items and then resell the originals.

[MominIN]

I said no.

 

We use Horizons Math and I buy a new workbook for each child. I think copying it would be wrong. I suppose you could get around it by having your student COPY (by hand) their answers onto a separate piece of paper. Otherwise, a consumable book is meant to be used by one person, not a whole family. It's very different, imho, than having multiple kids reading the same book.

[Myeightkiddies]

I chose: Yes, under special circumstances.

 

If the page had a map (or graphic) that they wanted to put in their timeline notebook, I may photocopy it prior to them writing on it, if that is what they want. Also, if I anticipate them not doing well on a test or assignment, I may photocopy it prior to just in case they need to redo it. Usually this happens when I want to pre-test them on a chapter in advance to determine which part we need to do and which is already mastered.

 

Each student has their own workbook and text. Any copies will be used with that same child.

[LMD]

To sell (either the copy or the original after making a copy for us) or give to a family so they did not have to buy? No.

 

To make a copy or pdf for personal use like work sheets so my son can redo them later to practice/reinforce? Yes. Same thing goes for copying for my notes. Sometimes I will make a copy or PDF for me to read and then write notes of the questions to ask my son and underline words to verify he knows them. He reads from the original and when the assignment is done, I shred my copy and may delete the PDF if I don't see a need to keep it.

 

A no duplication to sell copyrighted material policy is understandable and in sync with the law. Companies that say you can't resell their books are in violation of the law and companies who expect you to not ever make a single copy for you to note up are just silly.

 

This, and what Skadi said.

 

Generally, if it's a cheap consumable book I won't bother to copy it.

[Julie in CA]

No. I don't think copyright law works that way. It's for personal use. For you and your family.

 

It'd be like saying that you should buy a new copy of a book every time you want one of your kids to read it. That would be ridiculous. It's okay to re-use copyrighted materials as long as you are not distributing or selling it outside of your personal use, IMHO.

I agree with this, but wanted to add that I'd never knowingly buy a book that I could not use again if I were so inclined.

[MissKNG]

I've emailed publishers before and asked permission to copy some of the pages for my small girl to scribble on and was never denied. Most commented on my honesty too.

[BigMamaBird]

I would for my own personal children's use, but not for others.

[AK_Mom4]

To make a copy or pdf for personal use like work sheets so my son can redo them later to practice/reinforce? Yes. Same thing goes for copying for my notes.

:iagree:

[silliness7]

yes in very special circumstances like it was out of print. I detest copying even if I have the right because it is very expensive. I prefer finding ways of not consuming almost everything.

[WishboneDawn]

Keep in mind that the "policy" of the author means little.

 

What the author is entitled to are the rights granted her under copyright law. She can choose to reserve all of those rights or not but she can't come define what the person who bought the book can do with it beyond what the law grants. I've seen some crazy claims by authors (mainly on knitting patterns) about what right they think they have and how they think they can restrict the end user but most are fantasy that the law does not support.

 

The real question is whether the author has the right to restrict your ability to copy the material. For personal use within a household, she probably does not.

 

I'd comfortably copy the material. I'm all for honouring an author's wishes but I also believe we need to protect our own rights to fair use of the products we buy.

[QuirkyKapers]

Yes in special circumstances. I really like that you can now download items to the computer and so far it is ok to print multiple copies for your family. That has simplfied things here.

[Desert Rat]

I voted Yes, no problem. I bought it for our family. I'm not copying it and selling the book. I'm using it for my own children and no others. I don't see an issue with it.

Now, if I copied the book so I could resell, or I bought the book and copied it for several families, I would say that is in violation.

[justamouse]

Of course I would use it again. I don't think copyright law works that way. It's for personal use. For you and your family.

 

It'd be like saying that you should buy a new copy of a book every time you want one of your kids to read it. That would be ridiculous. It's okay to re-use copyrighted materials as long as you are not distributing or selling it outside of your personal use, IMHO.

:iagree:

[SunD]

Keep in mind that the "policy" of the author means little.

 

What the author is entitled to are the rights granted her under copyright law. She can choose to reserve all of those rights or not but she can't come define what the person who bought the book can do with it beyond what the law grants. I've seen some crazy claims by authors (mainly on knitting patterns) about what right they think they have and how they think they can restrict the end user but most are fantasy that the law does not support.

 

The real question is whether the author has the right to restrict your ability to copy the material. For personal use within a household, she probably does not.

 

I'd comfortably copy the material. I'm all for honouring an author's wishes but I also believe we need to protect our own rights to fair use of the products we buy.

 

This is exactly my answer, but you stated it better than I probably would have.

 

And if I noticed that clause printed in the book before buying, I would probably skip it. It would rub me the wrong way.

[Haiku]

When I buy a book, I consider that book to be purchased for my personal use whether I have 1 child or 10 children.

 

Yup. When I buy a shirt, the company selling the shirt has no right to say my kids can't both wear it. When I buy a book, the publisher of the book has no right to say that only one person can read the book. When I buy a book, it's mine to use as I see fit as long as I'm not making money on it.

 

Tara

[MHowell]

A consumable? Unlikely but not a definite no. A Text book? Without a second thought.

[mytwomonkeys]

i probably wouldn't, but not for ethical purposes. i wouldn't care if someone else copied pages and used them among their own children. for me, it's just more work than it's worth honestly.

Edited December 13, 2011 by mytwomonkeys

[TechWife]

No, I wouldn't. All authors deserve to be paid for their work.

 

If you have a legitimate need (other than I don't want to buy another book), then contact the publisher to request permission. I've done it & found it surprisingly easy.

[In2why]

I would for my own personal children's use, but not for others.

 

 

This is me as well. I wouldn't feel guilty either. I know some people who use the plastic page protectors so they can reuse a book or sell it, I am not sure how that is any different. But I am pretty sure that homeschool materials have a personal use rule, at least I haven't come across anything that doesn't. I also would think that used sales cut into the publisher/creators pockets more than personal use.

[TechWife]

I do not read the page that has the publishing information. It has never occurred to me to do so.

 

That is where permission to copy or a restriction/forbid to copy is located.

[higginszoo]

No, I wouldn't copy. I do/have used transparencies on books that are supposed to be consumable so that they can be erased and used again by multiple children.

[kalanamak]

99.9% of the time I would not, but I voted "yes, under certain circumstances" because if I had, for example, an old textbook that I used extensively in my teaching, it was out of print, and my copy was falling apart, I might photocopy it.

 

:iagree:Although I never have, I did vote yes in special circumstances. I can't think up all circumstances, so I don't want to give a blanket no. Wait, maybe I did copy one reference page once, to pin up by the desk, so I didn't have to keep flipping open the book.

 

(Okay, someone points a gun to your head and says, "COPY!" Do you or don't you?:))

[LucyStoner]

Of course I would use it again. I don't think copyright law works that way. It's for personal use. For you and your family.

 

It'd be like saying that you should buy a new copy of a book every time you want one of your kids to read it. That would be ridiculous. It's okay to re-use copyrighted materials as long as you are not distributing or selling it outside of your personal use, IMHO.

 

:iagree:

[Rhonda in TX]

I voted "no", but admit having done it in the past. It's been an issue I've had to work through on my own over the past few years. I've finally decided the amount of money saved is not worth it to me.

[Mama Anna]

I don't think I would. I've got dd8 copying her math problems out on notebook paper to save the workbook for dd5. She does her Latin on a sheet protector in wet-erase marker for the same reason. As a musician I've had copyright protection pounded into me until I'm sorta silly about it.

 

Mama Anna

 

ETA: I guess, for some of you, that would be the same thing as making a copy. It's not in my mind because I'm not photocopying it and it's basically the same thing I would do if we were unable for some reason to obtain further copies of the books. Which, with our present financial condition, we are.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Mama Anna

[AimeeM]

I don't buy curriculum that doesn't allow for copies. Whether they can require that legally or not, it rubs me the wrong way that they would even want to restrict copies made within the same family.

 

With that said, I want to purchase Calvert; but I'm not sure I will because of their no-resale policy. If I spend upwards of $900 on curriculum, I want the ability to sell it when I'm finished.

[5LittleMonkeys]

What is the difference in using a wipe off page protector so the workbook can be used for 2 or more dc and making copies for 2 or more dc. You are still preventing the publisher from making money on workbooks you would have purchased for your other dc. Are you justifying it because the rule states do not "copy" and you aren't technically copying?

 

Not trying to ruffle feathers...just trying to understand the reasoning.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

To be honest, I cannot think of any curriculum I've used that had a specific 'no copy under any circumstances' statement, unless it was written somewhere in the workbook that I didn't see. For example, I do not read the page that has the publishing information. It has never occurred to me to do so. But yes I would copy pages for my children. When I buy a book, I consider that book to be purchased for my personal use whether I have 1 child or 10 children.

:iagree: I would do it to use in my own household/family but wouldn't sell or give to someone else......

[Mrs Mungo]

I said yes, because fair use laws are pretty well defined. I would not hesitate to make copies for my own use *within those parameters*. I would not copy an entire workbook.

 

When my eldest went through SOTW, I bought extra student pages for my other kids to scribble on while she worked. I downloaded all of the student pages once that was available. So, I have paid for them multiple times over.

 

But, I typed out all of that stuff from TWTM that explains exactly what the high schoolers are supposed to do, step by step. I have it in my binder, dd has it in her binder. I also gave a copy of the typed out version to a friend who (like me) has owned all 3 editions of TWTM. That is within fair use parameters, as long as I don't put it on the internet or charge for it or pass it out to a whole school.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Mrs Mungo

[scrappyhappymama]

What is the difference in using a wipe off page protector so the workbook can be used for 2 or more dc and making copies for 2 or more dc. You are still preventing the publisher from making money on workbooks you would have purchased for your other dc. Are you justifying it because the rule states do not "copy" and you aren't technically copying?

 

Not trying to ruffle feathers...just trying to understand the reasoning.

 

:iagree:

 

If it is a consumable, and the issue is paying the author a fair wage for their work, then whether I copy the page or another parent makes a wipe off page protector has the same result: not buying an additional consumable copy.

 

I personally do make some copies of workbooks and consumable worksheets, for use within my own family and with my own children only. I have several children, and there are some curricula I intend to use for all of them. If I use the consumable books for the first few, what about when they are have been updated or are no longer available for purchase? Then I need to toss out perfectly good textbooks because the workbooks are no longer available?

 

That said, I actually prefer to buy curriculum like the SOTW pdfs and the Math Mammoth pdfs, where the authors explicity allow copying for use within one family.

[Crissy]

To be honest, I cannot think of any curriculum I've used that had a specific 'no copy under any circumstances' statement, unless it was written somewhere in the workbook that I didn't see. For example, I do not read the page that has the publishing information. It has never occurred to me to do so. But yes I would copy pages for my children. When I buy a book, I consider that book to be purchased for my personal use whether I have 1 child or 10 children.

 

I agree with this.

I only have two boys and I usually just had the first one write his answers on a sheet of notebook paper so I could re-use the same book for the second.

[Guest]

To be honest, I cannot think of any curriculum I've used that had a specific 'no copy under any circumstances' statement, unless it was written somewhere in the workbook that I didn't see. For example, I do not read the page that has the publishing information. It has never occurred to me to do so. But yes I would copy pages for my children. When I buy a book, I consider that book to be purchased for my personal use whether I have 1 child or 10 children.

 

A Beka is one! It's really annoying, because they update their material so often and if you do not photocopy the worksheets, they will update the book and worksheets and you can no longer get them for the book you bought, say, two years ago.

 

ETA: When I realized this, I decided to find something else to use.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Jinnah

[Ester Maria]

To be honest, I do think that the line of reasoning which says "as long as I do not financially profit from those copies, it is perfectly morally and/or legally acceptable" is a bit of an oversimplification of the issue. Workbooks, for example, are meant to be write-in books - unless specified otherwise, they were meant for a one time use for one person. It is morally and legally acceptable to use them as regular books, not workbooks (i.e. without writing in them, but solving the problems from the books on your own paper), but to use them as workbooks multiple times is actually not in the line of the original intent of the product and unless the publisher specifies they are okay with copies being made for a single family use, it is actually problematic because while you are not paying the money you normally would pay to purchase multiple copies.

 

That being said, I think it is too much of a hassle to overthink the issue if you just wish to make copies of a random page or two - but duplicating large parts of a workbook would clearly be against the copyright (unless specified) and financially hurt the publisher. You actually ARE financially profitting, even when you are not SELLING, if you make copies, because if you were using the product according to its original intent (which was to use *that one* piece of material, not duplicate the content further on other pieces of material), you would have to purchase multiple copies of write-in books for multiple users. Again, many homeschooling publishers are aware of the issue and even specify that copies for a single family use are fine because it is just unrealistic to expect that a large family would purchase so many copies of write-in books - they would either violate the copyright, either not use the workbooks are write-in books and use them as regular books with multiple "readers".

 

Personally, I greatly dislike write-in books. It is clearly a way to make profit; when I was a student, we rarely had write-in books, but books which contained exercises which were done on your own paper and thus the same book could be used many times over by many different people. I see a HUGE shift in regular schools when it comes to that because publishers are making a lot of money out of those books, so what used to a collection of math exercises of 150 pages, now it is a write-in workbook of 450 pages that has to be purchased for every single student. When I was a kid, math exercises were copied from a book into your cheap little notebook and solved there. Ditto for almost every school subject. Nowadays, most materials seem to want you to be "active" with them in that you constantly cut off something, glue something, color, write in something - all with the purpose, as it seems to me, to make more money. I get stingy when I get an impression that somebody does that (and I also see the lowered quality of such materials, because a lot of book space is empty / wasted), so I tend not to use workbooks in the first place, or use them as regular books. You may consider it my personal little fit and a pet peeve, because it is not even that I do not have my kids write in those books for genuine reasons such as not having enough money to buy several copies, but because I simply refuse to play that game. Again, homeschooling materials which specify that copying for family use is fine are not what I complain about, but schooling materials in general.

 

A book can be used by as many persons as you want as that one particular piece of material, as long as its physical condition allows so. A workbook, if used as a workbook, is just not the same as a book. You cannot have a cake and eat it at the same time, if you get what I mean. You can split the cake for various users (one does half the workbook, the other one the other half), but you cannot get two cakes out of one. Your consumption still has to revolve around that same physical material you purchased.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Ester Maria