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Joan in GE
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regentrude - thank you for all the discussion. I understand your points even if I hope for changes.

 

Here are two interesting things I've heard....

 

That the top politicians send their children to Switzerland, Austria, or elsewhere to private boarding schools. I found this odd and elitist. I don't have links though.

 

I also had heard that 10% of the students in Badenwurttenberg did not have even the lowest level of capacity for Haupschul Abschluss certificate in reading and writing. I don't have a link for that either though hope to find it at some point....So if that is the case, then maybe the situation is not as good as it seems....

 

Wikipedia has interesting remarks about the homogeneity of the gymnasiums on the section "On cultural and ethnic diversity"....it says that minorities have very hard times getting letters of recommendation simply because they are immigrants and that gymnasia are socially and ethnically exclusive. There are other comments about lack of representation by the working class...

 

loesje - there is an interesting section there about gifted students and how most gymnasia have no provision for gifted students. (I find this common here too)

 

Joan

 

ETA - there is something about this that bothers me ...

This is not going to happen, not with Germany's 20th century history looming large over the collective conscience.

 

Somehow, not letting religious minorities do their own thing, seems though to actually be a continuation.

 

I understand the other points you've made over the course of all your posts though, about German character in other ways....

Edited by Joan in Geneva
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Wikipedia has interesting remarks about the homogeneity of the gymnasiums on the section "On cultural and ethnic diversity"....it says that minorities have very hard times getting letters of recommendation simply because they are immigrants and that gymnasia are socially and ethnically exclusive. There are other comments about lack of representation by the working class....

 

If you look at the numbers, then yes, native Germans and children from families with educated parents have a higher probability to attend gymnasium. This said, it is not clear to me whether one can actually talk about discrimination. There are two ways to get admitted to gymnasium: in some states, the teacher recommendation is binding, and often there are mandatory grade cuts. In other states, the teacher recommendation can be overruled by parental wishes.

So, for the underrepresentation of minorities, two things have to come together: grades below the grade cuts (so that the teacher can get out of recommending) AND lack of parental push. Minority children who clearly make the grade cuts have no trouble, they must be admitted (unless their parents overrule this and want the kid NOT to attend the school).

Actually disadvantaged are children who are hovering right around the grade cut and whose teachers feel that they can not recommend the kid because he is lacking parental support - these are kids who might have gotten the recommendation if the teacher had the feeling that highly educated parents could help the kid in his secondary education, and that this help would be necessary to see the child succeed.

If a kid in a parental decision state got a teacher's recommendation for the non-college track, often parents who themselves went to a college prep school and have Abitur will push for their kid to attend gymnasium; parents who are lacking this kind of education are more likely to accept the recommendation- but the COULD overrule it if they so wished.

 

I do not know where the top politicians send their children.

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regentrude - thanks for your answers above....I'm curious if people from other parts of Germany have the same perceptions....

 

Could we discuss "tolerance" in Germany?

 

It seems that word carries so much weight and importance in some of the decisions related to home education....people worrying about home educators who don't want their children to be exposed to certain ideas (which from my very limited exposure, seem to have been related primarily to 'sex education' for Christians at least). I won't discuss about the Muslim situation as it seems that it is primarily Christians going to court these days (from the limited news I have - please correct misconceptions)...

 

I even read recently of parents whose children were in school being court ordered to make their children attend sex education classes...how can that be such a problem for the majority?

 

But my main discussion point/question is this....in the 20th century, there were problems because a minority group was severely persecuted (partly due to economical reasons). Therefore, the majority was 'intolerant' of a minority.

 

Now people want to be seen as 'tolerant'....and so they will go to any measure to make sure that every single person is 'tolerant' of "all" others.

 

Yet in doing so, it seems that minorities are then forced to think the same as the majority, which effectively changes them into the 'majority' (in a most general sense).

 

If the minority does not have "violent tendencies" toward the majority, why do they have to be forced to think in the same way? Essentially it seems to be a repeat of the past to try to force all people to have the same mentality. (This time the focus is not on eye color or genes, but on ideology).

 

And by the very act of forcing people to think the same way, the society as a whole is displaying an extreme "intolerance", it seems to me.

 

Eg. I'm quite far from being a radical unschooler. But I still think it important to let people have the option to raise their children differently than I do myself. Yes, I've seen 'lacks' but I see lots of lacks in children that attend "schools"....lack of "heart", lack of "independent thinking", etc. There are certainly people ruined by the bullying mentality in Germany as well. People at the top are the 'survivors' and so have trouble understanding the ones who have not....And home education has potential pitfalls too. I don't think there is one perfect solution that works for every single person.

 

Anyway, I'll stop there. It is just this concept of tolerance while demonstrating complete intolerance that is really bothering me about the decisions being made in Germany....

 

Joan

Edited by Joan in Geneva
typo
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Could we discuss "tolerance" in Germany?

 

It seems that word carries so much weight and importance in some of the decisions related to home education....people worrying about home educators who don't want their children to be exposed to certain ideas (which from my very limited exposure, seem to have been related primarily to 'sex education' for Christians at least). I won't discuss about the Muslim situation as it seems that it is primarily Christians going to court these days (from the limited news I have - please correct misconceptions)...

 

Issues are not just sex education, but also evolution, the selection of literature studied in school, and participation in mandatory PE and swimming classes. I have not heard about Muslims who want to homeschool, but quite a few Muslims want to exempt their daughters from PE. (Which is seen as a particular problem because it treats girls differently than boys, something that goes against the value of gender equality in German society.)

 

I even read recently of parents whose children were in school being court ordered to make their children attend sex education classes...how can that be such a problem for the majority?

I do not think this is specifically about sex ed, but more about setting a precedent. The sentiment is that what is taught in schools represents a canon agreed on by society about what is necessary to produce well rounded, well educated people - and that you can not pick and choose which parts of the canon you want to participate in. The societal consensus is that students should be educated about human reproduction and contraception. Society as a whole has an interest in it (and as it turns out, Germany has much lower teen pregnancy rates than the US).

Same goes for teaching about evolution. A student who has not been taught about evolution would be seen as inadequately educated.

Same goes for swimming. You would be hard pressed to find a person who would see anything beneficial in a girl being unable to swim, and parents who want to prevent their daughters from learning to swim would be seen as negligent.

 

But my main discussion point/question is this....in the 20th century, there were problems because a minority group was severely persecuted (partly due to economical reasons). Therefore, the majority was 'intolerant' of a minority.

Now people want to be seen as 'tolerant'....and so they will go to any measure to make sure that every single person is 'tolerant' of "all" others.

Yet in doing so, it seems that minorities are then forced to think the same as the majority, which effectively changes them into the 'majority' (in a most general sense).

If the minority does not have "violent tendencies" toward the majority, why do they have to be forced to think in the same way?

The basic idea is that a common denominator in society, a common belief in democratic values (with a humanist, enlightenment background) is seen as a safeguard against parallel societies and extremism. Germany is deadly afraid of extremism of any kind (and of history repeating itself.) And school is seen as the vehicle to instill democratic principles in every person, to unify a diverse population.

Btw, the Holocaust is not so much interpreted as a manifestation of intolerance about religion, but as an extremist aberration. The antidote is seen in assimilation and common values and prevention of extremist ideas, not in accommodating the separation of religious groups from society, if that makes any sense.

 

I don't have time right now to think about a better explanation - I hope the above makes some sense. It is hard to explain to Americans, because the ingrained notions are so different.

 

ETA: Slightly off topic, maybe: aside from the mandatory schooling in Germany, I personally feel much more restricted in my parenting here in the US than in Germany. My children enjoy more freedoms in Germany; they can move independently in the city, do things with much less supervision - from a German perspective, laws that forbid children to be home alone under a certain age would be seen as a huge interference with parental rights. (It is really absurd: here, parents can homeschool without any regulations, are allowed to beat their children -spanking is against the law in Germany - but can't let them stay home alone. Makes absolutely no sense to me.) This really shows that perception about parental rights are vastly different. In Germany, a person arguing that it is a parent's right to beat his children would be seen as completely outside all societal norms.

Edited by regentrude
added a few more thoughts
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ETA: Slightly off topic, maybe: aside from the mandatory schooling in Germany, I personally feel much more restricted in my parenting here in the US than in Germany. My children enjoy more freedoms in Germany; they can move independently in the city, do things with much less supervision - from a German perspective, laws that forbid children to be home alone under a certain age would be seen as a huge interference with parental rights. (It is really absurd: here, parents can homeschool without any regulations, are allowed to beat their children -spanking is against the law in Germany - but can't let them stay home alone. Makes absolutely no sense to me.)

:iagree:

 

[...]

 

A propos what I quoted above: I have always felt the same way. There is something deeply contradictory about the American concept of liberty on one hand, and its practical implementation; in my view, there is such a stifling overregulation of some fairly trivial matters (e.g. some states have prohibitions from leaving children unattended at home below certain age) which I believe interefere with the parental rights. There is currently a parallel thread on the General Board which is basically a God knows which variation of the "free range" debate again, but which is interesting because it reminds me yet once more that it is actually America, not Europe, where you are way more likely to have your parenting choices questioned or confronted by strangers if you have a grade school child move more independently in their neighborhood, for example (the thread in question was about whether you would alllow your seven year old child buy something in the store alone while you wait for them outside).

 

There are many other reguations which make little sense to me: so, a 16 year old child can drive, with all the potential dangers that a driving license entails - but it is borderline criminal to wish to demistify alcohol and teach a teen how to drink smart by allowing them to consume an occasional glass of wine, in your presence, after a meal (a completely normal thing in Europe). Or, like Regentrude says, there is a basically hands off approach as to homeschooling and you can quite literally academically cripple your child by doing your own thing, and that is fine, but at the same time, woe betide you if they stay alone one morning below that legal age of staying home (in some states it gets quite aburd) because you do not feel like dragging them with you to your appointments and have them bored out of their mind by having to accompany you, instead of staying at home and using their time more productively.

 

Homeschooling in Europe, in that sense, is only a part of a wider picture in which the laws are intended to protect the kids, even from their own parents - it is just that logic as to *in which camps* they need protection is different than the US logic. There is an attitude, which I tend to share most of the time, that there is a certain educational "standard package" which cannot be compromised. I only disagree with German regulations because they fail to recognize that there may be different modalities of schooling bringing about the same educational results. There is a HUGE grey area between a complete prohibition, as in Germany, and a completely hands off approach, as in most of the US or UK. I think that yearly equivalence exams in the core subject areas are fine, do not significantly interfere with anyone's freedom, but at the same time protect the child from educational neglect and from being denied that "standard package".

Edited by Ester Maria
I apologize, I was referencing a private conversation instead of PMing the relevant parties about it; I cut it off now
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There is something deeply contradictory about the American concept of liberty on one hand, and its practical implementation; in my view, there is such a stifling overregulation of some fairly trivial matters (e.g. some states have prohibitions from leaving children unattended at home below certain age) which I believe interefere with the parental rights.

America, not Europe, where you are way more likely to have your parenting choices questioned or confronted by strangers if you have a grade school child move more independently in their neighborhood, for example (the thread in question was about whether you would alllow your seven year old child buy something in the store alone while you wait for them outside).

 

There are many other reguations which make little sense to me: so, a 16 year old child can drive, with all the potential dangers that a driving license entails - but it is borderline criminal to wish to demistify alcohol and teach a teen how to drink smart by allowing them to consume an occasional glass of wine, in your presence, after a meal (a completely normal thing in Europe). Or, like Regentrude says, there is a basically hands off approach as to homeschooling and you can quite literally academically cripple your child by doing your own thing, and that is fine, but at the same time, woe betide you if they stay alone one morning below that legal age of staying home (in some states it gets quite aburd) because you do not feel like dragging them with you to your appointments and have them bored out of their mind by having to accompany you, instead of staying at home and using their time more productively.

 

Homeschooling in Europe, in that sense, is only a part of a wider picture in which the laws are intended to protect the kids, even from their own parents - it is just that logic as to *in which camps* they need protection is different than the US logic. There is an attitude, which I tend to share most of the time, that there is a certain educational "standard package" which cannot be compromised.

 

As somebody also from the other side of the ocean, I can't say enough times :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

When I try to explain to my American friends that they are in many respects much more restricted in their parenting (as well as other) choices, they can't even grasp what I am saying. I get nowhere.

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regentrude - I'm in the process of writing a reply to many of your points, but meanwhile I have a question about German educational requirements, etc...

 

Trying to understand the levels of educational possibilities...you said people either have to get the 10 year diploma or the 12-13 year one with Abitur? Are those the only possibilities?

 

Here in Switzerland we have apprenticeship programs which start, normally after 9th grade (which is now called 11th grade since kindergarten are now 1st and 2nd grade), when a student is 15 yo...

 

So for the lower level types of jobs, people only need to finish 9th grade or have reached their 15th birthday....

 

Do you have a mandatory educational attainment or can people just quit school once they have reached a certain age (eg if they have done extremely poorly and have failed several years)...

 

And if they can quit after a certain age (in the US it is 16-18 yo I think depending on the state - is this still true any Americans reading this?) what kinds of jobs can they get?

 

Thanks,

Joan

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And if they can quit after a certain age (in the US it is 16-18 yo I think depending on the state - is this still true any Americans reading this?) what kinds of jobs can they get?

 

 

I don't know if Americans are still reading this, but I am. In Quebec, a youth can leave school at age 16 without a diploma. There's almost no job they can get beyond the summer students kind of jobs. Everywhere else, a high school diploma is required for working. There's a lot of emphasis on getting the diploma, as you can imagine.

 

Homeschooled students that go to college without the high school diploma are at a disadvantage while in college because they don't qualify for jobs. Even if they're in college. If they can't show their high school papers, they're doomed. When and if you get your college degree, no one will ever ask you again for your high school one, but in the meantime, you suffer.

 

In Ontario, the government was pushing to make the driving license contingent with the high school diploma. No diploma? No driving license. This change to the law didn't pass, but they're going to try again.

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Trying to understand the levels of educational possibilities...you said people either have to get the 10 year diploma or the 12-13 year one with Abitur? Are those the only possibilities?

...So for the lower level types of jobs, people only need to finish 9th grade or have reached their 15th birthday....

 

 

No, there is also a Hauptschule Degree after 9th or 10th grade (I believe it is different in different states). After that, you can do vocational training or apprenticeship (but it is hard to find an apprenticeship with this degree, as employers prefer students who have the Realschule degree, the 10 year one).

..

Do you have a mandatory educational attainment or can people just quit school once they have reached a certain age (eg if they have done extremely poorly and have failed several years)...

 

 

I did not know, so I did a very quick search, and it looks as if there are very different rules depending on state:

some states require you to attend school for 9 years, some 10, some 12 - where the 12 years would include vocational school after finishing regular school (Hauptschule) after 9 years.

As far as I can see, these are not grade requirements, but attendance years; so a student who has to repeat several classes and is incapable to be promoted cal leave school in a lower grade after attending school for the required number of years.

So, in effect, it comes down to an age requirement.

As this seems to differ between states, I am not able to give you a comprehensive answer now.

 

And if they can quit after a certain age (in the US it is 16-18 yo I think depending on the state - is this still true any Americans reading this?) what kinds of jobs can they get?

 

 

Hardly any. It is VERY difficult to find employment without a specific job training, because the tradition of education is very different from the US:

traditionally, there is no "training on the job" - if you want to be employed, you need to have training in that specific area, through vocational school, apprenticeship, or college. For example: if you want to be a daycare teacher, you can not just have experience babysitting and be good with kids - you must have a degree that you obtain from a 3 or 4 year education after finishing 10th grade. If you want to be a car mechanic, same thing: you need to have a 3 year training to be certified.

In Germany, without certifications it is extremely ahrd to get jobs, and the job market is not flexible for career changes.

So, a school dropout has very few opportunities to find unskilled work.

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In the UK you can leave school at sixteen with or without having passed any academic exams. The hoped-for situation is that a child would have passed GCSEs in five or more subjects and be therefore qualified for basic, low-level jobs, or continuing on into a vocational training/more academic study. In practice, about half of sixteen-year-olds do not achieve this, although some may retake exams later. Remember that GCSEs are very roughly SAT subject test level, so they are not extremely easy.

 

I suspect that a stronger and earlier vocational track might be better for a lot of children.

 

Laura

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Oh I'm glad other people are adding country comparisons....

 

any other countries that people can give more information for - about end of mandatory schooling, types of jobs that can be acquired with which end of school degrees, etc.?

 

Thanks regentrude, Cleo and Laura,

Joan

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  • 3 months later...
Oh I'm glad other people are adding country comparisons....

 

any other countries that people can give more information for - about end of mandatory schooling, types of jobs that can be acquired with which end of school degrees, etc.?

 

Thanks regentrude, Cleo and Laura,

Joan

 

I know this is an old thread, but I'll just add the little I know about Italy:

 

Homeschooling is legal, but most people don't realize it. You're supposed to follow the national curriculum and take tests.

 

Leaving age is 16. That is, you're no longer required to go to school. But for any sort of further study, you need the maturita,' the national exit exam. That's usually taken at about 19, or after the fifth year of high school. I do know that my daughter would need a diploma of some sort (if you read my other posts, you know that this is in flux) to graduate from conservatory and to audition for any orchestra.

 

There's a nascent homeschooling movement, which seems to be comprised mostly of people who either want to raise their children with more freedom, or who are avoiding some particular problem they see with the schools. They mostly have young children, at least for now. Some are dual nationality families.

 

When I say we homeschool, I say it with the confidence of a crazy American, so I haven't had any shocked reactions, but some people do say something like, "I've heard of that, but it's not common here." Italians are generally warm, affectionate, polite people, so I wouldn't expect them to make a big stink about it if they did disagree.

 

Also, they know that my daughter goes to a conservatory, so they probably assume we're doing it to allow her a flexible schedule for practice. She tells her Italian friends at the conservatory that she does online American school (which at this point is pretty much true), and they say, "Cool!"

 

Then again, in Italy generally, there is a tradition of a sort of double narrative: That is, there's an official way of doing things, and then there are all the ways people actually get around the official way. I don't think they trust authority very much, though they do seem to trust tradition. So there's a bit of sympathy in the mindset, if no actual desire to homeschool.

 

I don't know of any studies, but if I find any, I'll post them.

Edited by Laura in Torino
Needed to clarify the leaving age
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I know this is an old thread

 

It is somewhat timeless though. Glad you posted...

 

Then again, in Italy generally, there is a tradition of a sort of double narrative: That is, there's an official way of doing things, and then there are all the ways people actually get around the official way. I don't think they trust authority very much, though they do seem to trust tradition. So there's a bit of sympathy in the mindset, if no actual desire to homeschool.

 

I don't know of any studies, but if I find any, I'll post them.

 

Interesting what you write about Italian character and their relationship with authorities...I have seen that in relation to the lack of desire to pay taxes, even though things are falling apart around them... Hope it helps home education/educators!

 

Thanks for all the info and any studies you find in the future...

 

Joan

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  • 8 months later...

I just really want to thank regentrude for all her posts on this thread! My parents put me in an English speaking (DoD) school after 4th grade (we'd moved out of the state where I was signed up for Gymnasium three days before school started, and they hadn't planned ahead very well!), and we moved to the USA when I was in 7th grade, so you've really helped me understand a lot more about the eduction system (and paradigm behind some of it) in Germany that was very unclear to me as a child! :)

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just curious about the existence of Steiner/Waldorf schools and how they meet all the criteria, especially in the lower grades?

 

Also, aren't they falling into the category of parallel society?

 

In turn, many lifestyle elements that might be considered "Waldorf typical" are standard for parenting in most educated families (wooden toys, all cotton natural puppets for infants, music, art and nature focus...).

 

I'll have to chime in and agree with this. What most Americans (and probably others outside Germany) don't realize is how much "Waldorf" stuff isn't Steiner, it's German. Many of the "odd' holidays celebrated, like Martinmas (St. Martin's Day) are just German holidays, as Steiner was German. The prevalence of the fairy tales - that is common across Germany in any environment. Most of those funny Waldorf-specific songs? German folk songs. And yes, the toys in any German toy shop or German home are overwhelmingly Waldorf-like even if the shop or parents have no inclination to Waldorf. To the latter, I'm not sure if Steiner pulled from German culture, or whether the natural toys idea caught on from Waldorf and spread through the rest of German society. But Waldorf schools are very German. It's Germanness is one of the things that drew me to some elements of Waldorf when my kids were young, as I am culturally German. I don't have any interest in anthroposophy, though... ;)

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