Miquon fans...

[threeturn]

What do you think of the

iPad app?

 

I am very new to Miquon. We have only been using it two weeks (thanks to you guys) and loving it. Would these be a fun, sometimes substitute for the rods or would the divided sections be a deal breaker for using them with the program?

 

Thanks,

Pam

[jennynd]

pretty cool. thanks

[rgrin]

Wow! Where is the "picking my jaw off the floor" smilie?! That looks so awesome. I'm only few weeks into Miquon myself, so I'll be watching this thread...

 

As I watched the video, however, I did have the thought that a month ago, I'd have been wondering why the colors randomly change as you move things around! ;)

[rgrin]

OH, and for free... why not! :thumbup:

[Kuovonne]

What do you think of the

iPad app?

 

I am very new to Miquon. We have only been using it two weeks (thanks to you guys) and loving it. Would these be a fun, sometimes substitute for the rods or would the divided sections be a deal breaker for using them with the program?

 

Thanks,

Pam

 

Wow, that's a cute app. However I wouldn't use it instead of the rods until the child is *very* familiar with the rods.

 

The blocks changing colors on the iPad screen is too much like magic for me. When you have real blocks, they don't change colors or lengths at a touch. They have a permenance about them. With the blocks you have to think what other blocks make an equal train, and then test it out. With the app, you just drag the blocks apart and the answer magically appears, even if you haven't thought about it first.

[ErinE]

Wow, that's a cute app. However I wouldn't use it instead of the rods until the child is *very* familiar with the rods.

 

The blocks changing colors on the iPad screen is too much like magic for me. When you have real blocks, they don't change colors or lengths at a touch. They have a permenance about them. With the blocks you have to think what other blocks make an equal train, and then test it out. With the app, you just drag the blocks apart and the answer magically appears, even if you haven't thought about it first.

 

I agree!

 

When the child puts together the 4-rod and the 3-rod, he must pull out the 7-rod to compare. On the app, the 7-rod disappears into the two component numbers. The physical rods not only have permanence, they show the relationship. The child can compare the length of 4+3 to the 7-rod and see the fact that 4+3=7. That element is lost when the 7-rod goes away.

[Amber in AUS]

I think it's a neat app but wouldn't use it for school. As others have mentioned the colour changing without comparison concerns me as does the counting side. It looks like you can only make 6 by adding 1's together or by starting with a 10 and taking part away. I want them to see what 6 is WITHOUT counting.

 

Also with Miquon which we use. DD is in the 4th books now. For several of the activities the kids need to put the rods on their page to compare them or use them with the picture on the page. An ipad app isn't going to help with that.

[threeturn]

The blocks changing colors on the iPad screen is too much like magic for me. When you have real blocks, they don't change colors or lengths at a touch. They have a permenance about them. With the blocks you have to think what other blocks make an equal train, and then test it out. With the app, you just drag the blocks apart and the answer magically appears, even if you haven't thought about it first.

 

I agree!

 

When the child puts together the 4-rod and the 3-rod, he must pull out the 7-rod to compare. On the app, the 7-rod disappears into the two component numbers. The physical rods not only have permanence, they show the relationship. The child can compare the length of 4+3 to the 7-rod and see the fact that 4+3=7. That element is lost when the 7-rod goes away.

 

Exactly what I needed to hear. You are right! Thanks for your feedback.

 

Still wish there was an app that worked more like the rods for on-the-go.

[Spy Car]

I would not use it.

 

1) The scoring of the segments into countable Units killed the app for me. I love the C Rods because they can't be counted to determine their value.

 

2) I have very mixed feelings about not being truly hands on with actual objects rather than virtual objects. But truth told I probally would have been too temped not to try it were it not for Point 1 above.

 

3) I agree with the magic comments and analysis from Kouvonne. I still might have been tempted to use it (in tiny doses as an adjunct to real rods) if not for Point 1 above.

 

Maybe I should be glad and feel they did me a favor by scored the rods. Now I'm not tempted to use an electronic approach one side of my nature thinks is cool and another is appalled with :D

 

Bill

[TengoFive]

What about magnetic rods? The ones they sell don't look great, but you could either make yours magnetic or print some on this.

Not as easy as a tablet, but it might be more portable.

Victoria

Exactly what I needed to hear. You are right! Thanks for your feedback.

 

Still wish there was an app that worked more like the rods for on-the-go.

[threeturn]

2) I have very mixed feelings about not being truly hands on with actual objects rather than virtual objects. But truth told I probally would have been too temped not to try it were it not for Point 1 above.

 

I was struggling with that one too. We do have this app of Montessori early math works. You can build the red rods and trace the sandpaper numbers and a few other works. Even on our iPod this app is beautiful - the look of the materials, the blonde wood grained backgrounds, and the sounds used make it a rich and yummy app. :D It is a universal app, so I really can't wait to see it on the iPad. My 4yo loves it, but sometimes struggles with the size of everything on the iPod.

 

If I could have a C-Rod app made with that kind of care and detail, without the "magic" and the scored lines I would definitely use it some.

[Guest Manch]

I hope you don't mind me posting here - I am the designer of the app. My comment consequently is a bit longer but I guess this may have been the end of the thread.

 

First and foremost, it is great to see people discussing these things. The app was a proof of concept, not a tried and tested design, and it is very helpful to hear any thoughts whether positive or not.

 

I did want to add a couple of my own thoughts. First, an important part of the app is to ability to remove the colour prompt as there are certainly times when the colour is not helpful. The second point concerns why the colour may help.

 

If you give children a set of blocks, they will only develop number ideas with support - anything from a specific task to possible just supporting number language. Children need support in identifying certain patterns. The colour is to provide a cue for children to explore patterns; a visual short cut. For example, to visually emphasise how a group of blocks can or cannot be partitioned equally. However, the potential of any design like this will always depend upon the context in which they are used - whether there is an adult to encourage children to reflect on these colour patterns.

 

As for the virtual versus physical - I very much think that physical still holds many advantages. The app, however, was simply to highlight certain limitations of physical materials. It is possible, yet unproven, whether using digital effects can provide children with more effective ways to represent and explore numerical patterns.

 

I would not use this app to teach my children about numbers, although I might use it as a side activity to get them to think about ideas in a different way. What I would like to do is carry out further work to see if this type of representation supports or possible hinders young children when exploring number patterns.

 

Thank you and please do contact me, here or off list, if you have any questions.

[ErinE]

Manch,

 

Thank you for giving us your comments. There are many fans of the colored rods on this board and the app as shown was very exciting. However, I would be reluctant to use it for my children because the rods change color when put together or pulled apart.

 

For example, if you add the light green rod to the red rod, the resulting rod suddenly changes into the yellow rod. For lack of a better term, this "magic" of the rods changing colors when put together doesn't allow the child to see the relationship and make the visual comparison: two rods of different lengths are equal to a longer rod. If there was some way to keep the rod lengths static when put together or pulled apart, I would be on board to try the app as a change of pace for my children. They love doing anything on the computer.

 

Also, Bill (SpyCar) brought up a great point. When using the physical rods, there is no scoring indicating length. The child must use the 1-unit cubes to see a light green rod is the same length as three 1-unit rods. This prevents the child from counting up or down when adding and subtracting.

[Guest Manch]

ErinE,

 

Thanks for your post. I would be very grateful for any research you could send about this - there is little empirical work on Cuisenaire rods. Like the app says, my expertise are more around interaction with technology than maths development - but it is important for me to build the latter.

 

From what I have researched, what you are indicating is that the colour prevents children from needing to compare rods by length. But that is the classic Piagetian error. Length provides a reliable but inaccurate substitute for quantity. Colour is also not enough. It would be very wrong for a child to simply think 'if I add red and green I get yellow'. But in the studies I have done (30+ children, aged 5-6), children do seem to recognise why they change colour (change in quantity). It is this relationship that is imperative and one that an adult can emphasise through talk.

 

Colour is intended as a scaffold, to draw attention to patterns. And like any scaffold, the ultimate aim is to remove at the right time. Whist you can remove colour, you cannot remove length so easily.

 

If this conversation is overusing the thread in anyway, I would be very happy to continue by email!

 

Kind Regards

[Spy Car]

ErinE,

 

Thanks for your post. I would be very grateful for any research you could send about this - there is little empirical work on Cuisenaire rods. Like the app says, my expertise are more around interaction with technology than maths development - but it is important for me to build the latter.

 

From what I have researched, what you are indicating is that the colour prevents children from needing to compare rods by length. But that is the classic Piagetian error. Length provides a reliable but inaccurate substitute for quantity. Colour is also not enough. It would be very wrong for a child to simply think 'if I add red and green I get yellow'. But in the studies I have done (30+ children, aged 5-6), children do seem to recognise why they change colour (change in quantity). It is this relationship that is imperative and one that an adult can emphasise through talk.

 

Colour is intended as a scaffold, to draw attention to patterns. And like any scaffold, the ultimate aim is to remove at the right time. Whist you can remove colour, you cannot remove length so easily.

 

If this conversation is overusing the thread in anyway, I would be very happy to continue by email!

 

Kind Regards

 

I think you are misunderstanding the point. I (for one) LIKE the COLOR. And especially that is conforms to the scheme of Cuisenaire Rods.

 

What many of us don't care for is is the scored segments. Is it possible to turn the scored lines off, just leaving a colored solid? Right now we can turn off what we want to keep (colored solids) but can not turn off the lines.

 

I could get used to the idea that these Digicubes were their "own thing." Rather like C Rods in color and form, but with their own virtual-magical quality. I might even grow to love them, as the interaction is interesting it it's own way.

 

But the scored Units is a big problem for me. One of the reasons many of us are such fans of C Rods in our introductory math education programs is precisely because the children can not "count" them in order to find value relationships. This builds the kind of mental ability to think in parts and wholes that we hope to cultivate. Counting undermines the mental skill acquisition. And scoring the Digicubes makes them a "countable" manipulative. Counting can be a very bad habit to break.

 

I get that for a general audience (one unused to C Rods) that the app might seem less immediately accessible that one with scored segments. But for those of us who are having great success using C Rods as a learning tool (and these were a critical tool in my child's early math exposure, one of inestimable value) the scored segment present (and I hate to sound overdramatic) a threat; they open a gateway to "counting" rather than building the parts-whole relationships mentally.

 

The tough thing is if an individual child could "look past" the score-lines and not count, or were there an option in future version where the lines could be turned off, I think playing with an app like this could be another way to build the mental skills and understanding of value relationships and whole-part combinations. Not the same as using C Rods, not a replacement for C Rods, but an intriguing and fun complement.

 

I don't know if the programming involved to turn the scored lines off and leave colored solids behind (much like one can turn color off now, just the inverse) would be easy or unreasonably difficult, but I would like to play around with solid color (with no scoring) Digiblocks as an "option."

 

Bill

Edited December 12, 2011 by Spy Car
Typo

[Guest Manch]

Big Apologies - I understand what you mean. Yes, that is very easy to address. I am currently looking for funding to evaluate the app and am keen to see in greater detail how children respond to features such as colour and the division lines. Is this not an ongoing debate with regard Cuisenaire versus Stern rods? It should be quite easy to see if, and how, children count using the divisions.

 

On a separate note, I think the potential of these apps will amplify in the next generation which will allow simple sharing between screens. I would love to see what happens when a teacher / child can set up a problem on one screen and send to another to solve. This is the best way, in my eyes, of avoiding the right / wrong activities usually designed for number learning apps.

 

Many thanks

[ErinE]

Exactly what Bill said. I planned on answering Manch's post earlier but held off, as I figured Bill could answer it far better than I could.

[Spy Car]

Big Apologies - I understand what you mean. Yes, that is very easy to address. I am currently looking for funding to evaluate the app and am keen to see in greater detail how children respond to features such as colour and the division lines. Is this not an ongoing debate with regard Cuisenaire versus Stern rods? It should be quite easy to see if, and how, children count using the divisions.

 

Stern Rods are not widely used in this community, but there are very similar (and widely used) manipulatives called "MUS blocks" (from the math program Math-U-See). I will not deny that there are parents who prefer MUS blocks, but those of us who use C Rods are convinced they are superior for not being scored and for being "uncountable." Is there "debate?" Sure. But there is no question in my mind about which is preferable.

 

On a separate note, I think the potential of these apps will amplify in the next generation which will allow simple sharing between screens. I would love to see what happens when a teacher / child can set up a problem on one screen and send to another to solve. This is the best way, in my eyes, of avoiding the right / wrong activities usually designed for number learning apps.

 

This would be interesting.

 

Many thanks

 

Thank you for seeking us out and being open to feed-back. We are a community that really cares about early math education and appreciates the sort of work you are doing.

 

Best wishes!

 

Bill

[Amber in AUS]

:iagree:

 

With Bill (Spy Car)

[SnMomof7]

I'd love MUS block colors as an alternate option.

[mindygz]

I was wishing that the color scheme could be adjusted to match the MUS rods, as I thought it could be beneficial for my son (we aren't using MUS but do pull out the rods on occasion). I think there is value in the countability, personally, as it allows for a "check" mechanism. But to each their own. If you do make changes to the app, perhaps allowing for a color change or making a "MUS color scheme" an option would make it very usable for a lot of homeschoolers, I think. As it is, I won't use it because the different colors would be a challenge for my kids who are familiar with the MUS scheme. It's a neat app, though, and I had fun playing with it for a while the other day.