Melissa in Australia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 melissaL: In addition, maybe you also think it's a bit of a no-no in any case, do you? quite apart from any other issues that are definitely there. Personally wouldn't get my tongue pierced, and I often look at people who have lots of piercing and wonder what their mother's think. But my point is If I was paying for one of my adult children to live, I would feel it my job to give them some advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Personally wouldn't get my tongue pierced, and I often look at people who have lots of piercing and wonder what their mother's think. But my point is If I was paying for one of my adult children to live, I would feel it my job to give them some advice. Melissa: Thanks. Yes, I can see your point of view and to some extent I would agree. I wonder whether you would still say the same thing if she was being asked to remove her earrings instead of the tongue ring? (If you see what I mean, it's not necessarily a case of clear-cut categories between one piece of jewelry and another.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm sorry, but I think the crux of the matter is that as long as he is paying your bills, he will look upon some your choices as...immature. Were I in your position, I would either find my own way in the world (which I understand may seem impossible in your circumstances), or I would appease him however I could. A lot of older folks look upon tongue rings as a sign of a "teenager gone wrong", and will never be able to get past that. If you need to rely upon him for money, I think you need to do whatever you can to appear grown up & mature in his eyes. Sorry...:grouphug: :iagree::iagree::iagree: As long as he is paying the rent/bills, then you are under his "control". Which stinks as it sounds like he loves to make you squirm with that type of power. If it were me, I would begin looking at ways to be independent. Getting the kids on SSI/Disability for permanent medical coverage. Going to school at night while a friend babysits the kids. And begin creating a fund from small jobs to earn $$ for a future down payment/1st month's rent/rental van for you all to live somewhere cheaper or get off the Poppa $$$ Train. Your father sounds a bit cruel, to be honest. And that is not a healthy relationship for him to lord over you and the kids with his barbs and potshots. Empower yourself and get out from under his control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Melissa: Thanks. Yes, I can see your point of view and to some extent I would agree. I wonder whether you would still say the same thing if she was being asked to remove her earrings instead of the tongue ring? (If you see what I mean, it's not necessarily a case of clear-cut categories between one piece of jewelry and another.) I don't think what the jewelry is is relevant really. The point is that the father is paying for her accommodation and as a parent, feels he can give advice. Maybe he could do it with more tact. In reality we are only getting one side of the story. My Ds17 will be leaving home in 2 months to go to uni, he will have to live in residence and will need some monetary support from me. I will feel I can give him advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I don't think what the jewelry is is relevant really. The point is that the father is paying for her accommodation and as a parent, feels he can give advice. Maybe he could do it with more tact. In reality we are only getting one side of the story. My Ds17 will be leaving home in 2 months to go to uni, he will have to live in residence and will need some monetary support from me. I will feel I can give him advice. Melissa: Hope he has a great time and settles into his studies (and comes back regularly to visit mom!) I know that also he should be prepared to listen to mom's advice for much of the time. Since jewelry happens to be the thread's subject here, take for example, if he pierced his ears while living away and then came back home to live, would you really expect him to remove ear studs, if he was 18? or 20? or 21, 22? (It may not be relevant at all for you guys, but you know what I mean in the context of the thread.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Melissa: Hope he has a great time and settles into his studies (and comes back regularly to visit mom!) I know that also he should be prepared to listen to mom's advice for much of the time. Since jewelry happens to be the thread's subject here, take for example, if he pierced his ears while living away and then came back home to live, would you really expect him to remove ear studs, if he was 18? or 20? or 21, 22? (It may not be relevant at all for you guys, but you know what I mean in the context of the thread.) If he pierced his ears, or noes or anywhere, His father would be definitely having words with him even without him shifting back home! As for if he shifted back home, I am sure he would be asked to remove excessive metal from his face ( DH words). Fortunately my DS thinks facial piercing not his thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 If he pierced his ears, or noes or anywhere, His father would be definitely having words with him even without him shifting back home! As for if he shifted back home, I am sure he would be asked to remove excessive metal from his face ( DH words). Fortunately my DS thinks facial piercing not his thing. melissa: Well, you guys clearly have a perfectly valid opinion as to whether you like the look of boys with ear studs. In your case, you clearly don't. Fine. This is your right. I guess it begs another question. If this is the case (as is your right), at what stage are you likely to start regarding him as an adult in his own right eventually, when such decisions will be his to make? (It's hard, I know, but I guess the original poster's question broaches the larger issue - plus other aspects we maybe don't even know about - of when the parent can afford to 'let go' a little, when the son or daughter grows up.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Really?!?! No, you're an adult and should have the right to leave the darn thing in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Really?!?! No, you're an adult and should have the right to leave the darn thing in. Mommy22alyns: yes well the matter of respecting adulthood is the reason why I voted for keeping it in (not for aesthetic or whatever reasons, which is far more subjective). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I guess it begs another question. If this is the case (as is your right), at what stage are you likely to start regarding him as an adult in his own right eventually, when such decisions will be his to make? (It's hard, I know, but I guess the original poster's question broaches the larger issue - plus other aspects we maybe don't even know about - of when the parent can afford to 'let go' a little, when the son or daughter grows up.) When a child grows up and leaves home, they can chose for themselves if they get studs etc. You asked me what would happen if they shifted back home? My answer then would be that while I am supporting them, then I have some say. We really don't know all the details of the OP. We can only go on what her side of the argument is. Like others have pointed out, rightly or wrongly, appearances can limit job prospects, and how others view someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 When a child grows up and leaves home, they can chose for themselves if they get studs etc. You asked me what would happen if they shifted back home? My answer then would be that while I am supporting them, then I have some say. We really don't know all the details of the OP. We can only go on what her side of the argument is. Like others have pointed out, rightly or wrongly, appearances can limit job prospects, and how others view someone. melissa: Thanks, Yes, I see what you mean. Like you say anyway, some sons do choose for themselves if they get studs. Some parents might think this is actually a nice thing for them to do. Others might not, at all. I think that relatively few parents would in the final analysis try to throw a son out of the house because of studs in his ears, though. I think that the OP (whose full circumstances, like you say, are not completely known to us) is somewhat concerned about a manipulative stance that she may be facing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrg Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I don't think this is an issue of whether the father has a "right" to some control over the dependent daughter's life. I think it's just that the father isn't feeling appreciated and so looks for ways to judge the level of appreciation. "If she obeys my wishes, then she appreciates my efforts." I think that the OP might be able to break out of this cycle by making a concerted effort to show appreciation, ignoring the history of demands. Have the children regularly make cards and gifts, ask the father to write out childhood memories for the children to enjoy, ask his opinion on non "hot button" items and then take the advice. Change the situation so the OP/daughter is doing so much offering and appreciating, the father has no need to seek control. About the tongue stud, I would take it out for the cruise and, very cheerfully, tell him that you are taking it out just for him this time! Let him know you love and appreciate him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissad2 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Are you still living in his basement? I know this isn't your question, but you need to get out of his house and distance yourself. This is not a very healthy relationship for you. :iagree: I would get outta there ASAP! I also would not take a vacation with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Buckin' Longhorn Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I've had my tongue, nose, and ears pierced (just once) for over 20 years. I don't work outside of the home, but I don't *think* I'm looked down on in my community. I live in a pretty conservative suburb. I can't imagine anyone would be b@llsy enough to give advise or even suggestions about what I should do with my own body. I'm sorry you have to put up with this, OP. I probably would stay home from the cruise and enjoy the time away from such an intrusive parent. My son is an adult and lives in my home. I would never make such demands of him. His individuality is one of the things I love most about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I don't think this is an issue of whether the father has a "right" to some control over the dependent daughter's life. I think it's just that the father isn't feeling appreciated and so looks for ways to judge the level of appreciation. "If she obeys my wishes, then she appreciates my efforts." I think that the OP might be able to break out of this cycle by making a concerted effort to show appreciation, ignoring the history of demands. Have the children regularly make cards and gifts, ask the father to write out childhood memories for the children to enjoy, ask his opinion on non "hot button" items and then take the advice. Change the situation so the OP/daughter is doing so much offering and appreciating, the father has no need to seek control. About the tongue stud, I would take it out for the cruise and, very cheerfully, tell him that you are taking it out just for him this time! Let him know you love and appreciate him. nrg: You're right: a bit of good humor — epsecially if it's mutual — can ease tensions considerably. There is still the nagging idea lurking that if it weren't this piece of jewelry in question, then would it be another? and how does this make sense, when it comes to an adult's personal jewelry preferences? (Thinks ... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The whole constellation of issues is why the tongue-piercing removal would bother me. If it were isolated, I'd say "remove it out of respect". Here's the deal: you are taking money in the form of assistance from a jerk. You are, by act of allowing him to pay your rent, inviting his crazy intrusiveness into your life. *Should* he act like that? No. He's cucoo for cocopuffs. But you've accepted his money, and the strings you should know from history, come with it. Adding a vacation to the deal serves to up the ante and "say" in terms of his thinking he has a right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I am so sorry for your situation, and know that you must hate it. But with that said he does have an unhealthy bit of power over you since he pays the bills. Uggh though because does he really only want a relationship with you based on him paying your rent? With that said I will answer the tongue ring question, since I think the other stuff shows it is a power trip and not really the tongue ring. I have 3 adult kids and they can and do ignore me sometimes, but I would go to the mat about a tongue ring and drive them nuts if they had one. I don't even care if they want to pierce their "private" areas, and with the risk of TMI, I have a nipple ring. But I have told them and will always tell them that I spent too much time making them brush their teeth, paying for dental work and braces so that they had a beautiful smile and a healthy mouth to let them screw it up chipping away at their teeth with a tongue ring. Maybe it doesn't always happen but I have seen to many times when it does, and it would infuriate me. I am very easy going about most things, tattoos, piercings, and letting them live their lives as they see fit that none of them have done it after we had the conversation about why I would freak on them.....and they love and adore me and we all enjoy spending time together, so when I put my foot down they usually listen. Lucky me, and I try not to abuse the privilege. But that of course isn't what is going on with you and your Dad. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I would have no problems taking it out when we got together. I don't know why he has such issue with it. He avoids answering the question. Seriously he probably read or heard somewhere that women get them so that oral sex is more enjoyable for the guy. (not saying that is why anyone actually gets one, well I am sure some people, but maybe not you) :D But I could see my Dad not being able to have that conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 I am so sorry for your situation, and know that you must hate it. But with that said he does have an unhealthy bit of power over you since he pays the bills. Uggh though because does he really only want a relationship with you based on him paying your rent? With that said I will answer the tongue ring question, since I think the other stuff shows it is a power trip and not really the tongue ring. I have 3 adult kids and they can and do ignore me sometimes, but I would go to the mat about a tongue ring and drive them nuts if they had one. I don't even care if they want to pierce their "private" areas, and with the risk of TMI, I have a nipple ring. But I have told them and will always tell them that I spent too much time making them brush their teeth, paying for dental work and braces so that they had a beautiful smile and a healthy mouth to let them screw it up chipping away at their teeth with a tongue ring. Maybe it doesn't always happen but I have seen to many times when it does, and it would infuriate me. I am very easy going about most things, tattoos, piercings, and letting them live their lives as they see fit that none of them have done it after we had the conversation about why I would freak on them.....and they love and adore me and we all enjoy spending time together, so when I put my foot down they usually listen. Lucky me, and I try not to abuse the privilege. But that of course isn't what is going on with you and your Dad. :glare: In2why: Thoughtful response showing misgivings about this particular type of jewelry for dental reasons, though clearly far from hostile to piercings as a whole. It only goes to show, I think, that with the OP there really are various unrelated issues going on, I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 The whole constellation of issues is why the tongue-piercing removal would bother me. If it were isolated, I'd say "remove it out of respect". Here's the deal: you are taking money in the form of assistance from a jerk. You are, by act of allowing him to pay your rent, inviting his crazy intrusiveness into your life. *Should* he act like that? No. He's cucoo for cocopuffs. But you've accepted his money, and the strings you should know from history, come with it. Adding a vacation to the deal serves to up the ante and "say" in terms of his thinking he has a right. Joanne: Yes, context is important; not just the thing in isolation. So often the media, lawyers etc can portray things according to a narrative and context that is rather different from reality. In this case, we probably don't know fully all the facts and the related aspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amo_mea_filiis. Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 The cruise was awesome, and I didn't have the tongue ring. There were only 2 times we were all expected to be together and that was dinner on the first and last night. We all did our own thing, including the kids which was really cool! Thank you guys for all your insight. I will start to stand up to him, but I won't die on the tongue ring hill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 The cruise was awesome, and I didn't have the tongue ring. There were only 2 times we were all expected to be together and that was dinner on the first and last night. We all did our own thing, including the kids which was really cool! Thank you guys for all your insight. I will start to stand up to him, but I won't die on the tongue ring hill. amo mea filiis: Glad it worked out all right. You must know now whether you want to put in the ring again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuirkyKapers Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Glad it went well. Hope you can continue to figure out a balance between what you want and what your dad expects. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) PS: amo mea filiis: I think if you scroll down the various comments, folk are seeing that there have probably been many, many aspects to the situation you have described. For you (as for not a few people, too) the ring/stud aspect is important. But there would certainly also be many other aspects which are just as important, and even more important, too. Glad you had a good trip. Edited January 6, 2012 by farouk typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 (edited) Please don't take this the wrong way but it takes 2 to make babies. Why are you not getting child support from dad(s)? Enough to cover rent at least. (I don't need the answer just a suggestion for where else to turn instead of your dad.) I assume in your place you should qualify for HUD, Pell Grants for school ect. Meanwhile could you clean houses, shovel snow, rake leaves, bake bread, tutor special needs kids or something to earn an income. Think outside the box. :iagree: I know it feels like you can't work at all due to the kids issues, and are waiting for special housing but there is things you can do to make enough to get out from under needing his help. I am on my own with 4 kids, 3 of which have special needs, which means working f/t out of the house is not an option so instead I do everything else I can. I have worked out of the house in school aged daycare and taken the kids with me, I have done newspapers at 2 am with the kids asleep in the car, I currently run a home daycare. I have picked up random jobs here and there and made it work. If you are truly unable to work without further help or training, go down to the welfare office, explain the situation that you need help a) with expenses now but mostly b) with finding work or the services you need at home to help with the kids so that you can work, for training etc. They are there to help and if you are truly trying to be selfsufficient and out from your father's thumb they will help you. It is great that he is helping you, I certainly would not own my home or my new car without my parents help but the difference is I pay for them in full. Until you are paying for everything on your own even if they help you with the initial cost he is going to feel he has some (or all) say in how you run your life, and he has a point. He is going about it all wrong but he has a point. And if what you are getting the most hassle about right now is something so mundane as a tongue ring take it out when you are with him. I also will point out that if it was my child still needing me to pay their bills (again not refering to helping with something that they then pay 100% for) but actually having to pay their rent etc because they couldn't work due to special needs kids at home, I would not be supportive of their homeschooling even if I think homeschooling is best. I would tell them to put their kids into a school that offered special needs support and then get a fulltime job to pay their bills and support their children. I would likely be very vocal about this, because I have no intention of supporting my adult child forever. I would love to help them out where needed but not support them kwim. Living in that situation as a parent of special needs kids and a down right refusal to do that I know it is up to me to find solutions that work even if they are not ideal. Bundling the kids into the car at 2 am so I could deliver papers was not ideal but that $1000/month made a huge difference in covering the bills. Picking pop bottle is not ideal but that $20 or so I could scrounge up made the difference sometimes between having gas in the car and not, or having fresh fruit in the fridge or not. Running a homedaycare while trying to homeschool 4 kids and coordinate therapy appts is not ideal but It allows me to stay home with the kids and keep homeschooling them. Eventually I may have to put them into school and get a fulltime job, I hope it never comes to that. Now that Tim Horton's is open in the next town I am trying to see if I can find enough open days in my schedule to apply for a job for a couple evenings a week and maybe every other weekend (when I am down to 2 kids), or maybe I will find something else. One thing I learned and accepted a long time ago is I will never be able to bring inthe amount of money I need at 1 fulltime job without either paying for daycare or putting the kids in ps. So instead I do multiple things at once, each one parttime or less, but together they combine enough income coming in to keep us home. I know that your question had nothing to do with all of that, but until you are no longer needing his help you will have no choice but to either grin and bear it when he starts telling you what to do, and for things like the tongue ring comply with his wishes. Until you have an income coming in high enough to pay your own rent and bills he will continue to have say in how you run your life because he is the one supporting it. ETA: oops I didn't realize that this was an older thread. I am so glad your cruise went well and you had a great time without any issues with your father. Edited January 6, 2012 by swellmomma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 :iagree: I know it feels like you can't work at all due to the kids issues, and are waiting for special housing but there is things you can do to make enough to get out from under needing his help. I am on my own with 4 kids, 3 of which have special needs, which means working f/t out of the house is not an option so instead I do everything else I can. I have worked out of the house in school aged daycare and taken the kids with me, I have done newspapers at 2 am with the kids asleep in the car, I currently run a home daycare. I have picked up random jobs here and there and made it work. If you are truly unable to work without further help or training, go down to the welfare office, explain the situation that you need help a) with expenses now but mostly b) with finding work or the services you need at home to help with the kids so that you can work, for training etc. They are there to help and if you are truly trying to be selfsufficient and out from your father's thumb they will help you. It is great that he is helping you, I certainly would not own my home or my new car without my parents help but the difference is I pay for them in full. Until you are paying for everything on your own even if they help you with the initial cost he is going to feel he has some (or all) say in how you run your life, and he has a point. He is going about it all wrong but he has a point. And if what you are getting the most hassle about right now is something so mundane as a tongue ring take it out when you are with him. I also will point out that if it was my child still needing me to pay their bills (again not refering to helping with something that they then pay 100% for) but actually having to pay their rent etc because they couldn't work due to special needs kids at home, I would not be supportive of their homeschooling even if I think homeschooling is best. I would tell them to put their kids into a school that offered special needs support and then get a fulltime job to pay their bills and support their children. I would likely be very vocal about this, because I have no intention of supporting my adult child forever. I would love to help them out where needed but not support them kwim. Living in that situation as a parent of special needs kids and a down right refusal to do that I know it is up to me to find solutions that work even if they are not ideal. Bundling the kids into the car at 2 am so I could deliver papers was not ideal but that $1000/month made a huge difference in covering the bills. Picking pop bottle is not ideal but that $20 or so I could scrounge up made the difference sometimes between having gas in the car and not, or having fresh fruit in the fridge or not. Running a homedaycare while trying to homeschool 4 kids and coordinate therapy appts is not ideal but It allows me to stay home with the kids and keep homeschooling them. Eventually I may have to put them into school and get a fulltime job, I hope it never comes to that. Now that Tim Horton's is open in the next town I am trying to see if I can find enough open days in my schedule to apply for a job for a couple evenings a week and maybe every other weekend (when I am down to 2 kids), or maybe I will find something else. One thing I learned and accepted a long time ago is I will never be able to bring inthe amount of money I need at 1 fulltime job without either paying for daycare or putting the kids in ps. So instead I do multiple things at once, each one parttime or less, but together they combine enough income coming in to keep us home. I know that your question had nothing to do with all of that, but until you are no longer needing his help you will have no choice but to either grin and bear it when he starts telling you what to do, and for things like the tongue ring comply with his wishes. Until you have an income coming in high enough to pay your own rent and bills he will continue to have say in how you run your life because he is the one supporting it. ETA: oops I didn't realize that this was an older thread. I am so glad your cruise went well and you had a great time without any issues with your father. swellmomma: What you say about her being dependent financially is pretty accurate, it would seem. But amo mea filliis says she is aged 28. I wonder how old a person has to be before she can wear the jewelry of her choice? 30? 40? 50? (I think it should be 18, if not before.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 swellmomma: What you say about her being dependent financially is pretty accurate, it would seem. But amo mea filliis says she is aged 28. I wonder how old a person has to be before she can wear the jewelry of her choice? 30? 40? 50? (I think it should be 18, if not before.) I am sure you intended this to be rhetorical but my personal thought is if you are not supporting yourself and the person supporting you is offended by it you do not bite the hand that feeds you and you respect their wishes and not wear it in their presence. GO ahead and wear all the jewelry you want, but respect the wishes of the one who is supporting you and don't wear it for the extent of the visit with that person. Seems to be the least she can do in response to having someone support her imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I am sure you intended this to be rhetorical but my personal thought is if you are not supporting yourself and the person supporting you is offended by it you do not bite the hand that feeds you and you respect their wishes and not wear it in their presence. GO ahead and wear all the jewelry you want, but respect the wishes of the one who is supporting you and don't wear it for the extent of the visit with that person. Seems to be the least she can do in response to having someone support her imo. swellmomma: I fully agree with much of what you say. Especially not to 'bite the hand that feeds you'. I see this exactly, yes. Re. 'Go ahead and wear all the jewelry you want'; in her case, he isn't letting her. And she's 28. Maybe some ppl would make a difference about the type of jewelry. E.g., 'she can wear a nice pair of earrings but not a tongue stud'. Or: 'she can wear 2 nice pairs of earrings but not a tongue stud.' Or: 'she can wear 3 nice pairs of earrings but not a tongue stud.' Personally I would find this rather arbitrary. Not to say intrusive and controlling. But, yes, at the moment she is dependent financially; you're right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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