x-post: the number 12. Please help

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I also posted this one the K-8 board but wanted to post over here also to get some ideas!

 

 

 

Ds1st has made HUGE strides for the most part (occasional stumbling block or set back but he always over comes it eventually) since getting testing done and finding out what was going on. There is still 1 thing that we have made no progress on in over a year. The number 12. He just has no concept of this number. Any other number between 1-100 he can tell me the place value with full understanding. He can write it and tell me how many 10s and how many 1s and build it with his MUS blocks. He can not do that with the number 12. He ALWAYS calls it 20. When counting (just counting without looking at the numbers or using manipulatives) he does fine. He will count 12 correctly about 75% of the time. Occasionally he will count 10, 11, 20, 13 but that part he is over coming. To look at the number 12 he constantly says 20. We have spend whole days on the difference between 12 and 20 through out the last year. He builds them with MUS blocks and we talk about the place value of 12 (how there is 1 ten and 2 ones--- how any number in the 20's has 2 tens because 2 tens is 20 plus however many ones to make the other 20's numbers) but it just does not stick. We have been working on this since Sept of 2010. Over a year. I am just at a loss. He can count by 10's with ease and understands the concept of 10 more and 10 less. He is working on counting by 5's with ease and we are starting counting by 2's and he understands that (we have a 100's chart and I cross off the numbers to show him how skip counting works) He understands addition and subtraction. He understands money. He understands shapes, sizes and he even understands greater than and less than and uses the < and > appropriately. So why can he not figure out the number 12?? Its like there is a complete mental block on that 1 number. I am sure I asked before about this last year in K and we had lots of suggestions that we did (using legos, salt tray, water tray) I can't even remember what else we did because we have done so much. We even did some activites with an egg carton. He just does not get it. How can I teach my son the number 12?? WHY is this so hard for him?

[Walking-Iris]

It might be a speech thing. The tw sound. You say he can't tell the place value of 12 but can he add 10+2? Or other expanded forms----24 is 20+4 etc? 10+10?

 

I'm not familiar with MUS blocks but we love love love Cusinaire rods. If he could see there's a ten rod and two one rods and that's 12 and here's two ten rods and that's 20 it might help.

 

Also maybe give him two piles of candies--12 and 20. Count them with him and let him see which is more.

 

Sometimes i understand why math teachers get a bad rep for being grumpy or mean---the constant never ending review and even reteaching can get exasperating. Stay with it!

[EKS]

Could you call it one-ten two for now?

[peacefully]

.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Could you call it one-ten two for now?

 

Do you think that would confuse him?

 

 

Does he understand the concept of 12, but says the word, "twenty"?

 

Just trying to figure out if this is a retrieval/speech pattern issue or a number concept issue. My dh nearly always calls my hydrangea a hosta. He knows the difference, but he just never retrieves the word "hydrangea" when he wants it. Just hosta. Both are plants, both start with h... :rolleyes:

 

He can count (with no objects and not looking at anything) and will 3 out of 4 times say 12 appropriately. When he see's the number he calls it 20. When he is counting objects he counts 11, 20, 13.

[Celia]

My first thought was one-ten two as well. I might ditch all the teens and call them one-ten ___ for a good while, and then reintroduce it later. Also, call twenty two-ten, and thirty three-ten, ect.

[AliR]

DD9 has had this issue for years too, except it is with 12 all the way to 19. Sometimes 12 is said as 20, and sometimes 20 is said as 12. 13 is 30 etc. Drives me mad!

 

That said, she is doing long division and multiplication and almost never makes the subsitution when writing the number - only orally. This has been going on so long, and I have tried various strategies, but I figure that this is just part of her general language processing issues. My latest is to try to emphasize different parts of the name, e.g. thirTEEN, THIRty.

 

Being honest I think this is just who she is, so I am trying not to let it interfere with our math, I just correct and we move on.

[sixpence1978]

My DD went through this as well. It was with all of the teen numbers and 12. Honestly, nothing special really helped. She still occasionally will get them confused, but has definitely gotten better.

 

Just patience and not making a big deal out of it helped. I, like the PP, would also overemphasize the difference in the sounds (twelVE vs. twenTY).

 

I know it always seems like there is one struggle after another. But you said he is already doing better, that's a good sign. Sometimes it just takes longer than we think it should.

[merry gardens]

I also posted this one the K-8 board but wanted to post over here also to get some ideas!

 

 

 

Ds1st has made HUGE strides for the most part (occasional stumbling block or set back but he always over comes it eventually) since getting testing done and finding out what was going on. There is still 1 thing that we have made no progress on in over a year. The number 12. He just has no concept of this number. Any other number between 1-100 he can tell me the place value with full understanding. He can write it and tell me how many 10s and how many 1s and build it with his MUS blocks. He can not do that with the number 12. He ALWAYS calls it 20. When counting (just counting without looking at the numbers or using manipulatives) he does fine. He will count 12 correctly about 75% of the time. Occasionally he will count 10, 11, 20, 13 but that part he is over coming. To look at the number 12 he constantly says 20. We have spend whole days on the difference between 12 and 20 through out the last year. He builds them with MUS blocks and we talk about the place value of 12 (how there is 1 ten and 2 ones--- how any number in the 20's has 2 tens because 2 tens is 20 plus however many ones to make the other 20's numbers) but it just does not stick. We have been working on this since Sept of 2010. Over a year. I am just at a loss. He can count by 10's with ease and understands the concept of 10 more and 10 less. He is working on counting by 5's with ease and we are starting counting by 2's and he understands that (we have a 100's chart and I cross off the numbers to show him how skip counting works) He understands addition and subtraction. He understands money. He understands shapes, sizes and he even understands greater than and less than and uses the < and > appropriately. So why can he not figure out the number 12?? Its like there is a complete mental block on that 1 number. I am sure I asked before about this last year in K and we had lots of suggestions that we did (using legos, salt tray, water tray) I can't even remember what else we did because we have done so much. We even did some activites with an egg carton. He just does not get it. How can I teach my son the number 12?? WHY is this so hard for him?

Just some thoughts, (based on my own experiences trying to correct two confusable) but maybe you can try practicing the number 12 completely separate from any studying of the number 20. Keep all counting below 20--simply avoid the number 20 for a while. Just let that go and teach him to say twelve. Use something tactile, like a saltbox for him to touch and write "12" while he says twelve--with you directing him to say twelve. Then try a flashcard with 12. If he "gets" rhyme, maybe draw the flashcard with elves to shape the number, (or maybe just one elf shaped like the 1 in the ten position.)

 

Once he has that, then re-introduce the number 20, but keep it apart from any study of the number twelve. He's got those two numbers closely linked in his mind and you want to break that link.

Edited December 8, 2011 by merry gardens
new idea

[siloam]

My 3rd dd struggled with the exact same thing...but over time grew out of it.

 

Most of the time she did get the place value though, she just called 12 twenty. I give credit for her knowing the place value to Right Start because it uses the base 10 names at first then moves to the teen names.

 

My ds also struggles with the same things. Now he can recognize the teen number names and translate them into their proper place value, but he can't recall 11 and 12 and half the other teen names upon seeing the number. If I give him 11 he can do 12-19. He will make a couple of mistakes and correct himself. But getting him to remember 11 even 2 mins after we covered it (daily) and he won't be able to.

 

In his case because he can do the base 10 number (one ten one, one ten two, one ten three...)and he is able to translate the the word into a number upon hearing it, he is able to do math and function in most situations. The only problem is in communicating with other people.

 

My recommendation would be to also go back to place value names until he can nail place value consistently for an extended period of time. Then I would start to use both at once. "That is one ten one, or eleven." This is the phase we are stuck in...the using it both at once. The goal is to eventually transition to being able to use just teen names.

 

Heather

[Lecka]

My son was like that with 11, 12, and 13. They didn't follow the pattern of the other teens.

 

He understood the concept of them, just couldn't remember the names of the numbers. Written, he was as good with them as with the numbers he knew the names of.

 

He is better now, but not truly solid.

 

I don't make a big deal out of it, but I write the numbers if I say anything about them. I don't do anything oral involving those numbers.

 

I think the "ten one" "ten two" would work for him -- but at this point he is getting there.

 

He has a speech delay and this kind of memorizing is hard for him, but overall he is good at math. I would not hold him back until he had memorized the words eleven, twelve, and thirteen, personally, but keep donig it here and there.

[LaughingCat]

Maybe I'm just not "getting" it myself - but if someone's getting 14-19 and struggling with 11-13, then why not just have them say one teen, two teen, three teen to follow the pattern they already know rather than one ten one?

 

LL

[siloam]

Maybe I'm just not "getting" it myself - but if someone's getting 14-19 and struggling with 11-13, then why not just have them say one teen, two teen, three teen to follow the pattern they already know rather than one ten one?

 

LL

Because one ten one is the correct place value name, so they can progress in math with just that much knowledge, they just struggle to communicate with other people. One teen, two teen is neither correct place value nor the correct name, so they still can't progress in math or communicate with other people. Dyslexic (dyscalculic) kids are often very concrete so one teen would be just as abstract as eleven, where one ten one is perfectly logical. But my ds struggles with the rest of teen names as well...he self corrects, but struggles.

 

Heather

Edited December 9, 2011 by siloam