What are my options for a guard dog?

[Jane Elliot]

We are being terrorized by a mountain lion who has killed several of our best sheep in the past few weeks resulting in losses well over $1K. But worse than that, our 4yo found a kill under the trampoline right by the house, so I've had to ban the little kids from going outside.

 

I know that the reason we're dealing with this is that our Newfie died of old age this summer. She wasn't technically a guard dog, so even with her here we had the occasional problem with bears.

 

Before that we had a Pyr who wandered so much he was a hazard to himself. We liked him a lot though, and we never had a problem with predators when we had him.

 

We don't want llamas as livestock guardians because they're hard on fruit trees.

 

We need a dog that:

 

1. Is absolutely safe around children.

 

2. Is classified as a guard dog and large enough to deter wolves, lions, and grizzlies.

 

3. Has a deep, not a yippie, bark.

 

4. Can be trained to stay reasonably close. (Fencing/penning is not an option.)

 

Can you all make some suggestions, please?

 

ETA: DS just shot that mountain lion dead, so problem solved... for now. I heard the shot as I was typing, and he just came in. We still want a guard dog.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Luann in ID

[Lara in Colo]

I had a chow and she was great protection from people, I don't know about animals though.

[simka2]

llama or alpaca. I do not think there is a dog who can take on a Mountain Lion that has discovered a food source.

 

Edited: I have 2 Rhodesian Ridgebacks. They are only 11 weeks or so, but they have already alerted us to cows in the yard, a coral snake, and taken on and killed a very large rat!

 

They are nicknamed Lion hunter's. They do not get huge, but they have a deep bark.

Edited December 7, 2011 by simka2

[LuvingLife]

Well, this is something I don't get to hear every day! but in regard to your suggestion I would reccommend:

 

1. Great Pyranees

 

2. German Shepherd

 

3. Burneese Mountain Dog

 

4. Irish Wolfhound

 

These dogs are known to protect and all are easily trainable, but I would highly reccommend a Great Pyr, the are known to guard livestock!

[OLG]

Anatolian Shepherd! Bred to protect sheep. Excellent at keeping all predators away and protecting all of its flock including humans. We have mountain lions and bears here as well and our guy has been a true comfort. He is a gentle giant around his family but watch out with intruders. Won't attack to kill or maim but can pin a threat in seconds. Little know breed but superb dog. Our came from a breeder in central FLorida almost 13 years ago now. Only downside is that they love to dig and dig and dig.

[simka2]

Just trying to think of quick fixes for you as well, but you might try a donkey in with the sheep. ;)

 

You may be able to find someone who will be willing to part with a gelded donkey or llama for pretty cheap, especially this time of year.

[Miss Marple]

ETA: DS just shot that mountain lion dead, so problem solved... for now. I heard the shot as I was typing, and he just came in. We still want a guard dog.

 

Wow! My son is soooo jealous! On the other hand I would have been a total basket case knowing he was out there stalking a mountain lion :svengo:

 

Have you considered a donkey for a guard? My sister had sheep and used a donkey. She had trouble with coyotes and dogs and donkey's hate dogs. That donkey could kill a predator! But she was bridle trained and very sweet with the kids.

[Hedgehog]

This link might help you.

[Jane Elliot]

Wow! My son is soooo jealous! On the other hand I would have been a total basket case knowing he was out there stalking a mountain lion :svengo:

 

Have you considered a donkey for a guard? My sister had sheep and used a donkey. She had trouble with coyotes and dogs and donkey's hate dogs. That donkey could kill a predator! But she was bridle trained and very sweet with the kids.

 

No, no, it wasn't exactly like that. DS was checking the traps set by the trapper yesterday, and he shot it when he found it in the trap. No stalking involved.:tongue_smilie:

 

A donkey's something to think about. I wonder how they are with fruit trees.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Luann in ID

[Jane Elliot]

This link might help you.

 

Perfect! Thank you.

[Miss Marple]

No, no, it wasn't exactly like that. DS was checking the traps set by the trapper yesterday, and he shot it when he found it in the trap. No stalking involved.:tongue_smilie:

 

A donkey's something to think about. I wonder how they are with fruit trees.

 

LOL! That's a bit easier to think about. But on the side of "total coolness" (as the boys would say) is he going to skin it and tan the hide? (inquiring minds want to know - this is more interesting than reading history ya' know ;))

[Jane Elliot]

LOL! That's a bit easier to think about. But on the side of "total coolness" (as the boys would say) is he going to skin it and tan the hide? (inquiring minds want to know - this is more interesting than reading history ya' know ;))

 

It's possible they'll let him tag it, but then he'll have used his tag, and since dh has arranged a hunt during Christmas break with a guide who is a patient, ds might want to save his tag for that. This one really wasn't that big. Considering all the problems he's been causing, I thought he'd be enormous but he's young.

 

Yes, I know all about getting distracted from history. DS is supposed to be doing history this morning. So am I, come to think of it. ;)

[Jane Elliot]

Anatolian Shepherd! Bred to protect sheep. Excellent at keeping all predators away and protecting all of its flock including humans. We have mountain lions and bears here as well and our guy has been a true comfort. He is a gentle giant around his family but watch out with intruders. Won't attack to kill or maim but can pin a threat in seconds. Little know breed but superb dog. Our came from a breeder in central FLorida almost 13 years ago now. Only downside is that they love to dig and dig and dig.

 

I can handle digging. Thank you for telling me about this. Is his bark deep?

[itsheresomewhere]

Well, this is something I don't get to hear every day! but in regard to your suggestion I would reccommend:

 

1. Great Pyranees

 

2. German Shepherd

 

3. Burneese Mountain Dog

 

4. Irish Wolfhound

 

These dogs are known to protect and all are easily trainable, but I would highly reccommend a Great Pyr, the are known to guard livestock!

 

 

Bernese Mountain Dogs are not guard dogs at all. Unless you want it to lick it to death. They are lovers not fighters. A giant teddy bear in disguise. Great Pyr are a good choice.

Edited December 7, 2011 by itsheresomewhere

[amy g.]

We bought a one quarter anatolian three quarter great Pyrenees. He is finished with training, and ready to come home.

 

I'm very interested in how he ends up being as a guard dog.

[Shelly in IL]

Bred for mountain lions and bears. Absolutely safe with kids. Look 'em up!

[itsheresomewhere]

I have heard that Mini Donkeys are very good watch dogs. Although, they are afraid of dogs.

[OLG]

I can handle digging. Thank you for telling me about this. Is his bark deep?

 

Bark IS deep and with 'authority'. Our Anatolian is a clear alpha male (neutered) who has taken up patrol of the entire area! We are on about 20 acres but he 'covers' miles. Well known in the community after some introductions! Breeders suggest fenced areas but we cannot fence a mountainside.

[Jane Elliot]

Bark IS deep and with 'authority'. Our Anatolian is a clear alpha male (neutered) who has taken up patrol of the entire area! We are on about 20 acres but he 'covers' miles. Well known in the community after some introductions! Breeders suggest fenced areas but we cannot fence a mountainside.

 

Fencing is not an option here either. Thank you. I will add this breed to our list of options. So much depends on availability that I'd like to have a list of reliable possibilities.

[Starr]

Bark IS deep and with 'authority'. Our Anatolian is a clear alpha male (neutered) who has taken up patrol of the entire area! We are on about 20 acres but he 'covers' miles. Well known in the community after some introductions! Breeders suggest fenced areas but we cannot fence a mountainside.

 

They need proper training. You don't want them going after people while protecting your children. They will consider the family theirs. ;)

[Happy]

I lived on a ranch with German Shepherds several years ago. My boys were toddlers and learned to walk by holding on to a dog's collar. A well trained, well socialized German Shepherd does all of what you request.

 

Hmmm....you will want to train around sheep. Mine were always around cattle and did well.

 

We never had fences and my GSDs stayed around the house. They stayed where ever I was so when I saddled my horse and rode to a friend's house, they were comfy in her yard until we went home.

 

Good luck on finding a good dog for your family!

[Once Again]

Anatolian and Great Pyrenees are two good choices. As for a donkey, I know they are helpful with coyotes and feral dogs, but I don't know how they would do with a mountain lion.

[astrid]

Fencing is not an option here either. Thank you. I will add this breed to our list of options. So much depends on availability that I'd like to have a list of reliable possibilities.

 

I heartily second the recommendation of an Anatolian. If you decide to go that route, be CERTAIN to get one from working lines. So many working breeds have evolved into "bench" and "working" lines. "Bench" dogs look like Anatolians, but have been bred to preserve the "look" for the showring (bench.) Working lines are bred to preserve the strong working instincts, regardless of the length of stop (forehead) or croup (tail set) or perfect conformity to the physical standard. You want a sound, working dog. Not a show dog. :D

 

astrid

[yarrow]

We have a maremma. They look sort of like a great pyr but bigger. Ours is 110 lbs. They were bred to stay with the sheep in the mountains in Italy and guard the sheep (not herd them - just guard).

 

I should add that this is an outdoor dog. This dog and his siblings and parents all have jobs to do and have never been in a house. I think that it's fairly typical of the breed. With ours, it's also because I have a dog allergy:). But it hasn't stopped him from bonding with us. He especially loves our youngest son and is loathe to leave his side when ds is outside.

 

If you have any more questions about him, please feel free to pm me.

[gardenmom5]

did you have a pyr that was raised with sheep? would a different personality that doesn't wander so much work? My sil used to have a farm near where they were studying the pyrs raised with the sheep, and I would see them out amongst the sheep. (just wandering around. the sheep treated them like another sheep. they'd act like a sheep until a predator showed up when their instincts to protect kicked in.)

 

why not another newfie?

Edited December 7, 2011 by gardenmom5

[Jane Elliot]

I lived on a ranch with German Shepherds several years ago. My boys were toddlers and learned to walk by holding on to a dog's collar. A well trained, well socialized German Shepherd does all of what you request.

 

Hmmm....you will want to train around sheep. Mine were always around cattle and did well.

 

We never had fences and my GSDs stayed around the house. They stayed where ever I was so when I saddled my horse and rode to a friend's house, they were comfy in her yard until we went home.

 

Good luck on finding a good dog for your family!

 

We had a dreadful experience with a German Shepherd about 1 1/2 years ago. She was given to us, and we had not been told that she clearly had a history of abuse. She attacked my then 2 year old leaving bite marks. It was a struggle to get ds away from her. It would take a lot to get ds to relax around a German Shepherd. I know they can be great dogs, but with this history, we need a different breed.

[justamouse]

A Turkish Akbash.

 

 

LOVELOVELVOVE them. If they were good house dogs (they prefer their flock, but are totally gentle giants), I'd have one in a minute. They used to be on a farm we lived on and battled mountain lions (yep, we have mountain lions in NJ).

Edited December 7, 2011 by justamouse
what can I say, it's a bad punctuation day

[Happy]

We had a dreadful experience with a German Shepherd about 1 1/2 years ago. She was given to us, and we had not been told that she clearly had a history of abuse. She attacked my then 2 year old leaving bite marks. It was a struggle to get ds away from her. It would take a lot to get ds to relax around a German Shepherd. I know they can be great dogs, but with this history, we need a different breed.

 

That is dreadful! I'm so sorry your family had that experience. Wish I had one of my old girls to send to you. They were loving family pets that were also terrific guard dogs.

[Happy]

A Turkish Akbash.

 

 

LOVELOVELVOVE them. If they were good house dogs (they prefer their flock, but are totally gentle giants), I'd have one in a minute. They used to be on a farm we lived on and battled mountain lions (yep, we have mountain lions in NJ).

 

What a gorgeous dog! Those eyes...seriously beautiful. sigh...

[Jane Elliot]

I would advise against donkeys or llamas--they SOMETIMES can handle lions, but rarely. Llamas are better on coyotes. A LGD is what you want. We've gone through the llama/donkey thing, to no avail. Donkeys tend to kill lambs, too. We had two Pyrs (quarter Anatolian) but lost one to the road. We now have an Akbash (quarter Anatolian) with the Pyr. We have not lost a SINGLE sheep to lions, bears or coyotes since we got the dogs. You need more than one dog for coyotes, as they'll gang up on them. Our Pyrs backed off an ENORMOUS bear when they were only 6 months old! Look for dogs that are NOT registered, that were whelped WITH the sheep and raised with them. Do not get dogs that were pets. You won't be able to do rescue dogs--no rescue will let the LGDs do their jobs. The dogs stay out 24/7/365. They do need to be socialized to a point, but they are NOT pets!!!! I like the bark of the Pyr better than the Akbash--it's lower. All LGDs are hard to keep around--nature of the beast. See a pasture? Guard the pasture. See ANOTHER pasture, guard that one too. I have to say though, every time ours have taken off, turns out they were after the lion or bobcat...

 

Want a REALLY tough dog? Look at a Gampr: http://www.gampr.org/

 

Margaret, I was hoping you'd chime in with your experience. This is all great information. Thank you for taking the time to type it out. Our Pyr was lost to the highway, too, and we are quite a distance from it. We've been hesitant to go with another one for that reason, but now I'm thinking that's the direction we should go.

 

We do have another dog, a Norwegian Elkhound who functions as a pet. But he could cooperate with another dog in fending off coyotes. He's been useless on his own in deterring lions and bears. We kennel him at night because his bark is so yippy that I can't sleep. Good to know the information on the difference between a Pyr and Akbash bark. I loved the bark of our Pyr; it was comforting.

 

I appreciate your information on donkeys and llamas. I wasn't certain if I should pursue the donkey route or not. We had already ruled out llamas because of the loss we'd take in fruit trees.

[AimeeM]

We love our German Shepherd. He is fantastic with our children (please notice that I said *our* children! While he loves all children, other children tend to be intimidated by his bouncing, jumping, joyful 90 lb self); an incredibly loyal companion; fiercely protective; playful and enthusiastic. He is a wonderful guard dog. I won't say he's a watch dog because he isn't. He WILL attack if he feels that we are threatened - he won't merely alert you to the danger... he will take care of it. We did have to train him on a shock collar. I know it sounds horrible, but he is a herding dog and went through a bad stage where he nipped neighborhood children. Better a shock collar than the humane society for a perceived "bite" (he is huge for his age and his nips hurt/break skin). That shock collar has been a life saver. He is now a favorite around the neighborhood.

 

Pros: Loyal, protective, will attack if necessary, extremely intelligent, fantastic with our children, beautiful, has an innate ability to deter potential issues with his very deep bark, snarling teeth, and throaty growl :D

 

Cons: Easily bored (read - destructive when bored, lol), has an intense hatred of delivery men and will attempt to attack all UPS trucks (at least ours does this), may be large - but believes he's small and likes to try his hand at life as a lap dog (big issue when he tries to jump into the lap of dinner guests and small children). Oh, and he pouts when he doesn't get his way.

Edited December 7, 2011 by AimeeM

[astrid]

A Turkish Akbash.

 

 

LOVELOVELVOVE them. If they were good house dogs (they prefer their flock, but are totally gentle giants), I'd have one in a minute. They used to be on a farm we lived on and battled mountain lions (yep, we have mountain lions in NJ).

 

Yes--- I was going to post this.

Another potential to consider is a Maremma. Not sure about mountain lions, though. But can anything, other than a person with a gun?

 

astrid

[Jane Elliot]

Arg! Typed a big thing and it disappeared...

 

Elkhounds were bred to corner the prey, then bounce in and out, yapping that high-pitched bark, keeping the prey from excaping. That's not what you want! (I used to show Elkhounds) They have a very high prey drive, so I would not trust them around lambs. We had to get rid of our last one after she slaughtered the chickens and started in on calves...

 

Here are our first two Pyrs:

 

They were just a month older when then stood up to the bear.

 

The second picture is the Akbash as a small pup. We didn't have the usual obnoxious adolescent behavior from him because the Pyr clued him in.

 

Love the pics. The dogs are gorgeous.

 

We did have trouble with the Elkhound around the ducklings, but we were able to train it out of him...I think...so far. Sounds like we better continue to think of him as a pet/foot warmer.

 

We rarely see the coyotes in packs as you do in Colorado. We see loners or sets of two.

 

I think I've found a local breeder of Pyrs and Pyr/Anatolians. He's actually another shepherd with whom we've done business, but I didn't know until today that he also breeds dogs. I'm going to call him after I make sure dh is still on board with this plan.

[astrid]

Maremmas are considered very good with lions! They're basically a variation of a Pyr, or maybe a Pyr is a variation of a Maremma!

 

Anatolians are good too--they just don't have enough fuzz for our climate. I would have preferred another Pyr when we lost Creme, but an Akbash is what came along. He's not near as fuzzy--much rangier. He has more of the Anatolian build--more sight hound.

 

Ah, good to know. Yes, I wondered about the Anatolian's coat once I realized she lived in Idaho. Yeah...not so much with the short, tight coat. Maremmas are fleecy though....and Pyrs, of course.

 

astrid

[Alyeska]

I realize that all dogs are different. But fwiw, a friend of mine got a Great Pyrenese from a shelter. It was the most loving family dog I had seen in a long time. Their baby would crawl all over the dog and she would just lift her head up and look at the baby with those big brown eyes of hers.

 

...and she thought she was a lap dog. Numerous times I sat down and ended up with a sweet 90 pound dog on my lap. :lol:

 

We are moving next week and will be buying a farm. We are already looking around for a Great Pyr. : )

[astrid]

And Maremma puppies just MIGHT be even cuter than Pyrs, though I'm not sure about that...

 

OH my gosh they ARE! SERIOUS cuteness factor.

Those dark eyes and white curls!!! Swoon!

 

astrid (who could give a fig about a guy in a kilt but dies a thousand deaths at the sight of a great working dog! :D)

[Laura Corin]

Bred for mountain lions and bears.

 

Not many mountain lions and bears in Airedale, West Riding of Yorkshire.

 

Laura

[Myeightkiddies]

I just wanted to post that I hope the OP and her animals stay safe. Hopefully a few new dogs will do the trick. I'm sorry that you lost your sheep and that the little one found one of them by the trampoline. :grouphug:

 

I'm off to read about Llamas and Alpacas. I never knew about them taking on other animals - donkeys either.

[Happy]

OH my gosh they ARE! SERIOUS cuteness factor.

Those dark eyes and white curls!!! Swoon!

 

astrid (who could give a fig about a guy in a kilt but dies a thousand deaths at the sight of a great working dog! :D)

 

I started to write something similar on my post...beautiful hard working critters make my heart melt...:lol: Toss in a tough but pretty Arabian and I'm a goner...

[missiemick]

I've seen lots of people use a donkey to guard their livestock.

[Jane Elliot]

I've seen lots of people use a donkey to guard their livestock.

 

We had a bear carry (literally carry) off a steer. I'm not completely sure a donkey would fare well here. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it needs to be a dog. Usually, just the presence of a dog's scent and bark will keep things at bay.

[zaichiki]

I'm off to read about Llamas and Alpacas. I never knew about them taking on other animals - donkeys either.

 

Llamas and alpacas as guards? With a grain of salt! It depends. There are numerous llama farms that have been decimated by coyotes and dogs. Certain individual llamas and alpacas are territorial and will guard their herd. Be sure to keep the guards the same gender as the stock they're guarding. I've heard, from llama farmers, of male llamas and pacas accidentally killing goats and sheep (mistook them as females of their own species).

 

We have pacas. They did a number on a rat once. We had one that tried to stomp my 2 year old. Most of them, though, run from my medium-sized dog (pet).