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Waldorf--I don't get it


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I'd like to get some opinions on Waldorf. I like some of the ideas, as they help me to balance the relaxed vs. structured aspects of schooling, but some of their ideas throw me for a loop.

 

An example is this article--anyone care to comment?

 

excerpt--

 

According to Steiner’s views of the seven year cycles, a child under the age of 7 should be in their bodies, and in a rather dreamy state. You would not want to do things in this period that would call the child’s attention to himself or to promote having a child think in a grown-up way. The child should be immersed in feelings of warmth and delight by the parent, but not so many words.

 

How much we tell a child, how much we explain to a child, and how we answer things can be part of what leads to premature intellectualization, premature analytical ability, and essentially putting the cart before the horse as we use discipline tools that are beyond the child’s developmental maturity level.

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Hey, there, poetic.

 

I found the article fascinating, and I agree with a lot of it from a parenting, but not necessarily educational, standpoint.

 

I especially like the affirmation of attachment parenting juxtaposed with the need for boundaries as they get older.

 

I liked:

 

A three or four year old cannot reason, and they cannot put themselves in someone else’s shoes. They need to have gentle discipline methods that reflect this reality. They can certainly learn all the words that you say, and how to answer back “correctly†and play a very verbal game with you, but this is NOT the same as truly being able to internalize and rationalize.

 

 

If your child is doing something that you do not like, if it is at all possible, involve the child in practical work. If it involves an item, gently take the item away without words and then immediately involve the child in practical work! This does not mean to IGNORE the behavior, but to have the child make restitution later with their hands or their bodies (but do not intellectualize it for them). A simple sentence is all that is needed!

 

My approach to the above is less........escoteric? but is something like this:

 

Kids outgrow (most) behaviors at the same rate whether you yell, spank, time out or redirect. You can't punish a child into maturity or a later stage of development. Therefore, you *can* spank each time they reach for an outlet, or you can simply move the child. Either way, 6 months later, neurotypical children will not be reaching for outlets.

 

I also agree with the idea that adults need to be around adults and kids need to be kids. The kid-centeredness of our culture (I see it in attachment parents, homeschoolers, and mainstream parents - it just manifests differently for each) is pervasive and unhealthy.

 

I'm not a fan of *Steiner*, and I don't agree with everything in the theory.

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I used to think Waldorf was sweet and lovely until I looked into it closely. Does it have some things that could work in our homeschool? Sure, most methods do. But to me it wasn't worth picking through the crazy to find the usable stuff.

 

This is exactly the point I'm coming to ... I like some of the ideas, then I come across the crazy and I'm like, :001_huh:

 

An aquaintance once mentioned that she was now into waldorf and so wasn't reading any more books to her child. :confused: Apparently stories at a young age are more developmentally appropriate according to Steiner. :001_huh:

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Here's a pretty good rundown of his personal history and philosophy.

I do disagree with the idea that he was, at all, Christian.

Like most things, there's merit in some of it--love the natural surroundings/art materials/telling folk and fairy tales/being gentle stuff. But totally disagree with anthrosophany (I did NOT spell that right! lol). And things like ONLY using watercolors and no black, ONLY telling imaginative stories and not reading lessons, and all that spirit stuff. Not for me.

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We use some Waldorfy stuff and dd5 is in a one-day-a-week class at a friend's house, taught by a certified Waldorf teacher. The class is wonderful and the teacher is absolutely gifted at moving little ones through the day with delight, songs and loving patience, not coercion. I love having these influences in our lives and it helps ground my sense that early childhood is about sensory experience of the world, that play is the primary work for the youngest ones and that our homeschool days go best (for dd9 and me, too!) when we have a rhythm.

 

I'm not particularly interested in reading Steiner's writings or delving deeply into the philosophy and I'd never send my kids to a Waldorf school. Too many opportunities to create a cultish atmosphere, although I'm sure there are wonderful Waldorf schools too.

 

I'm at the point where no educational philosphy seems exactly right, so I have no trouble picking and choosing parts of several. Waldorf in the later grades seems mostly odd to me, with a few gems of wisdom that I might incorporate into our homeschooling.

 

About the quote--sometimes I meet a 5 or 6 year old who argues like a lawyer or delivers a lecture on the periodic table and I get where Steiner is coming from. Of course there are children who are more heady from the get-go, but they might be exactly the kids who most need to spend their time jumping repeatedly in puddles and looking in wonder at the stars. There are developmental reasons so many cultures begin more intensive education a couple years later than we do. Of course intellectual development is happening all of our lives, but being head-centered is not something I push in the early years because children are in that dreamy, singsongy state of early childhood only once and it's a precious and important time.

 

A few years ago research came out finding that executive function in adults was related to the ability to play imaginatively as a child. It made me think there's so much more than we know going on when children play and dream, and that I want to protect that phase for my girls. I see how dd9 has moved out of that stage to a great extent, even though she does enter back into it.

 

I'm sure lots of homeschoolers prioritize protecting playtime in early childhood, whether they draw from Waldorf ideas as an inspiration or not. It's pretty counter-cultural at this point with the unrelenting push for earlier education.

 

Amy

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This is exactly the point I'm coming to ... I like some of the ideas, then I come across the crazy and I'm like, :001_huh:

 

An aquaintance once mentioned that she was now into waldorf and so wasn't reading any more books to her child. :confused: Apparently stories at a young age are more developmentally appropriate according to Steiner. :001_huh:

 

I did a Waldorf preschool group with my kids for one year taight by a real Oregon Waldorf natural schoolish trained Waldorf teacher. :lol:

 

I discovered we love playsilks. And natural oatmeal. Some wooden toys. And breastfeeding whenever we want some quiet time in class.

 

I also "discovered" autism isn't real - it's just bad karma the kids must work through. :glare:

And that books with pictures and dolls with faces stunt children's imaginations and they will grow up depressed. :001_huh:

 

To this day, most Waldorf dolls freak us all out - DD would pick them up and say, "Where are their faces?"!! all horrfied.

 

Oh, and I discovered that my DS' bad karma meant circle time would not happen EVER again.

 

It was lovely and gentle and calm. To say it's lacking in any REAL modern child psychology would be making quite the understatement.

 

And another Waldorf preschool dropout homeschooling mom and I get a big kick out of going to the park and running into some of the older Waldorf kids now. The classical-ish kids are usually poking a magnifying glass at a bug or dragging books around. And the 12 year old Waldorf kids are running around wearing bedsheets for capes, paper bags for hats and sticking seagull feathers in their mouths or their butts. :lol:

 

We did Waldorf from 9:00 to noon once a week. Oatmeal snack at 10:30ish. By 12:30, when we were back on the road to head home, I had starving kids so I'd drive through McDonald's. I used to giggle everytime I did it and think, "Well, that organic oatmeal with the home grown nuts and hand ground millet will just overpower a couple of French fries."

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There are several things that I like about Waldorf education that I incorporate into what I do with my children. Now these are things that I have found on curriculum pages on Waldorf schools' websites, so i don't know if they were important or intrinsic to the original Waldorf philosophy, or if they are a modern interpretation. Anyway, here they are:

 

-appreciation of natural materials, such as wool, wood, etc

-processes that manipulate these materials into functional objects (I love the whole gathering, carding, spinning of wool thing)

- how humans learn to adapt to different environments (gathering food, building houses)

 

I just bought a book that is an anthology of poems used by Waldorf teachers called, A Journey through Time in Verse and Rhyme, and I love it.

 

- I like the artwork associated with Waldorf (watercolor, paper stars)

 

Here I things I do not embrace:

-waiting until children are considerably older before teaching the alphabet

-math gnomes

-teaching children that plastic toys are dead

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[quote name=suppleasthewind;3388464

 

I just bought a book that is an anthology of poems used by Waldorf teachers called' date=' A Journey through Time in Verse and Rhyme, and I love it.

 

 

 

Aha, thanks for this! One of the things I do like from Waldorf is the poetry and I was looking for a waldorf-inspired book of poems to read to the kids.

 

There was a huge thread on one of the major natural parenting forums for support for Waldorf dropouts. Apparently there is a huge cultish nature to the schools, and a lot of parents seek support coping with the horrific experiences they had. :glare:

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I'm not sure why some things are labeled Waldorf...

What's wrong with natural toys and playsilks even if you don't consider yourself Waldorf?

What's wrong with celebrating the seasons?

Or getting some books with beautiful poetry and rhymes?

Some people don't allow TV and video games for their dc and probably most Waldorfy-people don't. But that doesn't make you a Waldorf-person.

Fairy tales and imaginative play is a big part of Waldorf, that doesn't mean "regular" people won't do this just because they don't agree with some guys philosophies.

 

A lot of the stuff that is considered Waldorf here, is pretty standard stuff in Germany. In regular kindergartens and schools.

 

I'm typing in my phone, sorry...

 

ETA: my point is I like a lot of the things that are considered Waldorf here in the States. To me they are just part of what I grew up with. Trust me, my mother has no clue what Waldorf even is. So just take the parts you like and do what you want with them, don't worry about what other people consider them to be.

Edited by RainbowSprinkles
My point :)
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The following quotes from Steiner, and others, made me realize that Steiner was a racist. It was extremely disturbing to me when the Waldorf advocates in my alternative education group started defending the quotes, rather than distancing themselves from that part of Steiner's views. I think their educational philosophy is far from sound, but the racism is even worse.

 

Here you go:

 

“On one side we find the black race, which is earthly at most. If it moves to the West, it becomes extinct. We also have the yellow race, which is in

the middle between earth and the cosmos. If it moves to the East, it becomes brown, attaches itself too much to the cosmos, and becomes extinct. The white race is the future, the race that is spiritually creative.” – VOM LEBEN DES MENSCHEN UND DER ERDE, p. 62.

 

“[T]hese things [future human evolution] cannot happen in the world without the most violent struggle. White mankind is still on the path of

absorbing spirit more deeply into its essence. Yellow mankind is on the path of preserving the period when the spirit was kept away from the body,

when the spirit could only be sought outside of the physical human being. But the result will have to be that [mankind’s next step upwards] cannot

happen differently than as a violent fight between white mankind and colored mankind in the most varied areas. And world history will consist

of the events that will lead to these battles between white and colored mankind until the great fight between white and colored mankind has been

brought about. Future events are frequently reflected in previous events. You see, we stand before something so colossal that, if we regard it

through the diverse perceptions of spiritual science, we will in the future recognize it as a necessary occurrence.” DIE GEISTIGEN HINTERGRÃœNDE

DES ERSTEN WELTKRIEGES, p.38

 

“Lucifer and Ahriman ... fought against this harmonious tendency of development in the evolution of humanity, and they managed to change the

whole process so that various developments were shifted and displaced. While there should have been basically only one form of human being ...

Lucifer and Ahriman preserved [earlier human types] ... Thus, forms that should have disappeared remained. Instead of racial diversities developing

consecutively, older racial forms remained unchanged and newer ones began to evolve at the same time. Instead of the intended consecutive

development of races, there was a coexistence of races. That is how it came about that physically different races inhabited the earth and are

still there in our time although evolution should really have proceeded [unimpeded].” THE UNIVERSAL HUMAN: THE EVOLUTION OF INDIVIDUALITY,

Lectures from 1909-1916 (Anthroposophic Press, 1990), p. 75

 

"We are within the great Root Race of humanity that has peopled the earth since the land on which we now live rose up out of the inundations of the

ocean. Ever since the Atlantean Race began slowly to disappear, the great Aryan Race has been the dominant one on earth. If we contemplate

ourselves, we here in Europe are thus the fifth Sub-Race of the great Aryan Root Race." [Rudolf Steiner, THE TEMPLE LEGEND: Freemasonry and

Related Occult Movements (Rudolf Steiner Press, 1985), p. 201.]

Edited by Dialectica
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There is also this:

 

If blonde and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense ... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. In the case of fair people, less nourishment is driven into the eyes and hair; it remains instead in the brain and endows it with intelligence.' [Rudolf Steiner, Health and Illness, Vol.1 (Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1981), pp.85-86]

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It was extremely disturbing to me when the Waldorf advocates in my alternative education group started defending the quotes, rather than distancing themselves from that part of Steiner's views.

 

 

How does one even defend that? Sheesh! I will say that at least the Waldorf-y homeschoolers I know don't subscribe to the racism, though many follow the suspect (IMO) educational philosophy right down to the no black crayons rule.

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There is also this:

 

If blonde and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense ... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. In the case of fair people, less nourishment is driven into the eyes and hair; it remains instead in the brain and endows it with intelligence.' [Rudolf Steiner, Health and Illness, Vol.1 (Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1981), pp.85-86]

 

seriously? :001_huh: :lol:

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seriously? :001_huh: :lol:

 

Yep, and when I asked for an explanation of this, a former Waldorf teacher who is part of our alternative education group advise me to "not worry me head over what Steiner wrote about health and sickness, and to just follow his views on education instead." He went on to point out that Waldorf is not racist, but added that "not all races are equal". I really hoped that these people were ignorant of Steiner's racism, but I was disappointed.

 

The education theories are wacky and damaging enough, in my opinion, but the racism really makes me boil.

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I like a lot of the Waldorfy ideas, like an emphasis on natural foods and materials, imaginative play, celebrating festivals throughout the year, no TV, stuff like that. I think that fits well with my personal Christian beliefs and my general parenting style. I think there is a lot to be said for a handmade, unhurried, creative lifestyle, and I love the beautiful, timeless sorts of toys in the Nova Naturals catalog (as do my children). I like the emphasis on pretend play over academics for young children.

 

However, I also think plastic and screen time have their reasonable places in modern society. :) I do not particularly care for the more left field, as another poster said, ideas. And while I don't push academics on young children, I also can't see how I would have kept my 4yo DD from reading.

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That article is really interesting. Waldorf education was something I was looking into when dd was little. But I did keep coming across strange cultish stuff and many ideas I didn't like that put me off pursuing it. I have taken things from it though.

:iagree:

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I'm not sure why some things are labeled Waldorf...

What's wrong with natural toys and playsilks even if you don't consider yourself Waldorf?

What's wrong with celebrating the seasons?

Or getting some books with beautiful poetry and rhymes?

Some people don't allow TV and video games for their dc and probably most Waldorfy-people don't. But that doesn't make you a Waldorf-person.

Fairy tales and imaginative play is a big part of Waldorf, that doesn't mean "regular" people won't do this just because they don't agree with some guys philosophies.

 

A lot of the stuff that is considered Waldorf here, is pretty standard stuff in Germany. In regular kindergartens and schools.

 

I'm typing in my phone, sorry...

 

ETA: my point is I like a lot of the things that are considered Waldorf here in the States. To me they are just part of what I grew up with. Trust me, my mother has no clue what Waldorf even is. So just take the parts you like and do what you want with them, don't worry about what other people consider them to be.

 

:iagree: esp. with the bolded. What is standard in Germany is most available here through Waldorf catalogs, so it's easy to confuse the two. The aesthetic is very appealing to me and I don't see any problem with any of the questions you asked.

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There is also this:

 

If blonde and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense ... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. In the case of fair people, less nourishment is driven into the eyes and hair; it remains instead in the brain and endows it with intelligence.' [Rudolf Steiner, Health and Illness, Vol.1 (Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1981), pp.85-86]

 

While this is obviously racist, the the first adjective that springs to mind is "psychotic."

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You cannot seperate Waldorf and Anthroposophy (the worldview that Steiner and many others adhere to)...If you are an Anthroposophist, then the Waldorf way of doing things makes sense and probably would be necessary for you...If you are not an Anthroposophist (and if you don't know what that is you are not one ;)), then it won't make sense to you, nor will most of those things be necessary...Most Waldorf teachers and advocates are Anthroposophists...I took an entire course in Anthroposophy and decided that it was not for us...We are Christians, and regardless of what anyone has told me, I believe Anthroposophy to be a religious view...We followed a Waldorf way of life for several years, but last year decided to give it up...Once I read more and more, I just couldn't agree with it anymore...

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While this is obviously racist, the the first adjective that springs to mind is "psychotic."

 

:iagree:

 

I was completely unaware of Steiner's racist views. Makes you wonder about the devotees who are constantly urging people to turn back to Steiner as the be-all end-all authority on everything child-related. I wonder how many know about it or do they just downplay it/ignore it?

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:iagree:

 

I was completely unaware of Steiner's racist views. Makes you wonder about the devotees who are constantly urging people to turn back to Steiner as the be-all end-all authority on everything child-related. I wonder how many know about it or do they just downplay it/ignore it?

 

I have a friend, a single mother, whose daughter is biracial. She (the mother) is very sensitive to racism. She enrolled her daughter in a Waldorf school this year. I would bet a million dollars that she has NO IDEA that Steiner said any of this stuff. If she did, I bet she'd pull her daughter from the school.

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It is whack-a-doodle.

 

They do have some nice art materials and I love Rudolf Steiner bread. But the educational philosophy is rooted in cultic nonsense.

 

Bill (who could get sucked in by the food :D)

 

Bill at the kindergarten open house, "Um, I'm just here for the beeswax crayons and the bread." :D

 

Which is exactly what I got out of Waldorf. :lol: We did the seasonal table, the watercoloring, the fairy stories, the poems, the nature crafts, the playstands and silks, and the snacks for pre-K/Kindy. I also implemented the idea of rhythm to the day for young children...that was very useful. The rest of it.....not for me. Although I will say that I did love the Waldorfy toys from Magic Cabin. We ordered a lot of great stuff for my dd from there. She loved the fairy dolls and their houses.

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There's food? No one told me. Still not worth dealing with the crazy, but...food.

 

Why isn't there WTM food. SWB really needs to get on that.

 

:iagree:We need some fabulous WTM classical ed food. Whatever that might be. :lol:

 

In the meantime, here are some Waldorf cookbooks.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Waldorf-Book-Breads-Marsha-Post/dp/0880107030/ref=pd_sim_b_2

 

http://www.amazon.com/Waldorf-School-Book-Soups/dp/0880105755/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Waldorf-Kindergarten-Snack-Book-Hildreth/dp/0880105631/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

http://www.amazon.com/Waldorf-Cookbook-Kelly-Sundstrom/dp/1441486631/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323295817&sr=1-2

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You cannot seperate Waldorf and Anthroposophy (the worldview that Steiner and many others adhere to)...If you are an Anthroposophist, then the Waldorf way of doing things makes sense and probably would be necessary for you...If you are not an Anthroposophist (and if you don't know what that is you are not one ;)), then it won't make sense to you, nor will most of those things be necessary...Most Waldorf teachers and advocates are Anthroposophists...I took an entire course in Anthroposophy and decided that it was not for us...We are Christians, and regardless of what anyone has told me, I believe Anthroposophy to be a religious view...We followed a Waldorf way of life for several years, but last year decided to give it up...Once I read more and more, I just couldn't agree with it anymore...

This is interesting to me because, back in the day when I was looking into various homeschooling methods, I could.not.find an answer on what anthroposophy is. It was basically the "if you're not in the club, we're not going to tell you" vs "why would I want to be in the club if I don't know what you believe" standoff. :glare:

 

Since then, I've met a couple (as in 2) Waldorf "purists". I felt bad for the children who were not allowed to read.

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Yep, and when I asked for an explanation of this, a former Waldorf teacher who is part of our alternative education group advise me to "not worry me head over what Steiner wrote about health and sickness, and to just follow his views on education instead." He went on to point out that Waldorf is not racist, but added that "not all races are equal". I really hoped that these people were ignorant of Steiner's racism, but I was disappointed.

 

The education theories are wacky and damaging enough, in my opinion, but the racism really makes me boil.

 

 

WOW. :001_huh:

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There is also this:

 

If blonde and blue-eyed people die out, the human race will become increasingly dense ... Blond hair actually bestows intelligence. In the case of fair people, less nourishment is driven into the eyes and hair; it remains instead in the brain and endows it with intelligence.' [Rudolf Steiner, Health and Illness, Vol.1 (Spring Valley, NY: Anthroposophic Press, 1981), pp.85-86]

 

 

What a ridulous statement! And I AM blonde and blue-eyed!:tongue_smilie:

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I used to think Waldorf was sweet and lovely until I looked into it closely. Does it have some things that could work in our homeschool? Sure, most methods do. But to me it wasn't worth picking through the crazy to find the usable stuff.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I think most people find Waldorf appealing due to the natural toys, soft colors and low pressure early education. At least that was my attraction. Once I actually read Steiner and explored anthrophosophy it all became just too weird for me to get on board with.

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:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

I think most people find Waldorf appealing due to the natural toys, soft colors and low pressure early education. At least that was my attraction. Once I actually read Steiner and explored anthrophosophy it all became just too weird for me to get on board with.

 

yes, this. I know SO many people who have rushed in to the lovely fuzziness of the whole thing and then realised what's underlying it all and rushed right back out again. I had an acquaintance whom I knew was a staunch atheist announce she was moving house (and town) so that her child could attend the steiner kindergarten and school because she felt the attachment parenting / gentleness of it was just what she wanted. I sent her a few links and encouraged her to do a little more research and she changed her mind, but I was astounded that anyone would make that big of a decision based on such little information.

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