Black Ships Before Troy

[Aubrey]

Ugh, I hate to ask, but my copy of The Iliad is packed, & I haven't read it since college. But I've watched Troy several times. :D

 

So...BSBT says that Paris was abandoned in the woods to die, found & raised by a shepherd, one of many sons of Priam, married to a wood nymph.

 

I'm pretty sure that none of that is in The Iliad & that Sutcliff...must have gotten confused with the history of Rome. I know the twins were cast out & raised by wolves...I forget who was raised by a shepherd. I'm sure enough that I feel dumb to double-check, but...

 

Anyway, I've looked at online versions, but the translation is different, which is distracting. :tongue_smilie: And now I"m starting to second-guess myself, afraid that my memory of the story might be based too much on the movie. :svengo:

 

Help. :o

[dangermom]

That's not in the Iliad, because the Iliad is pretty much only the story of Achilles and Hector. But yes, Paris was raised by shepherds. At his birth, it was prophesied that he would be the downfall of Troy, but his parents couldn't bring themselves to kill him so they exposed him, and he was saved.

[Aubrey]

That's not in the Iliad, because the Iliad is pretty much only the story of Achilles and Hector. But yes, Paris was raised by shepherds. At his birth, it was prophesied that he would be the downfall of Troy, but his parents couldn't bring themselves to kill him so they exposed him, and he was saved.

 

Ok, I had the opening of the Aeneid & the Iliad mixed up--"Sing, O muse, of arms and a man..."

 

BUT...you're saying that the history of Paris is accurate according to Greek mythology but not actually part of the Iliad?

 

Do you mind telling me where the story of Paris is found? I had a hard-core classics prof for the Iliad, & I'm surprised that I don't remember hearing any of this!

[momofkhm]

Ugh, I hate to ask, but my copy of The Iliad is packed, & I haven't read it since college. But I've watched Troy several times. :D

 

So...BSBT says that Paris was abandoned in the woods to die, found & raised by a shepherd, one of many sons of Priam, married to a wood nymph.

 

I'm pretty sure that none of that is in The Iliad & that Sutcliff...must have gotten confused with the history of Rome. I know the twins were cast out & raised by wolves...I forget who was raised by a shepherd. I'm sure enough that I feel dumb to double-check, but...

 

Anyway, I've looked at online versions, but the translation is different, which is distracting. :tongue_smilie: And now I"m starting to second-guess myself, afraid that my memory of the story might be based too much on the movie. :svengo:

 

Help. :o

 

I'm pretty sure (though not positive) that the twins you are htinking of are Romulus and Reamus. (Prob not spelled right( And I do remember they were raised by wolves.

 

I haven't read BSBT though it does reside in my house. :tongue_smilie:

[Aubrey]

I'm pretty sure (though not positive) that the twins you are htinking of are Romulus and Reamus. (Prob not spelled right( And I do remember they were raised by wolves.

 

I haven't read BSBT though it does reside in my house. :tongue_smilie:

 

Right, that's why I thought maybe Sutcliff got it wrong, but the twins aren't IN the book.

 

Looks like she just researched the Iliad more than Homer did, though. :glare: :lol:

[dangermom]

Well, the Iliad may mention it, but I don't remember it doing so. But the Iliad only covers the final period of the Trojan War--it starts after the Achaeans have been sitting there for nine years, goes up to the funeral of Hector, and then stops. It might go into Paris' backstory at some point. I don't know what the source is, just that it shows up in Robert Graves Greek Myths. Sorry.

[Aubrey]

Well, the Iliad may mention it, but I don't remember it doing so. But the Iliad only covers the final period of the Trojan War--it starts after the Achaeans have been sitting there for nine years, goes up to the funeral of Hector, and then stops. It might go into Paris' backstory at some point. I don't know what the source is, just that it shows up in Robert Graves Greek Myths. Sorry.

 

Actually, now that I've thought about it, just your confirmation of the story is helpful in improving my google terms. Thank you!

[BarbaraL in OK]

The backstory of Paris is not in the Iliad, nor is it mentioned in Lattimore's intro to his translation -- I just checked. The Cliffs Notes book "Greek Classics" lays it out and attributes it to legend.

 

According to Lattimore and other stuff I've been reading, the Greeks of Homer's time would have been familiar with all of the backstory, gods, mortals, demigods, etc., a/k/a "legend". I've begun to really get that there is no foundational text like, say, the Bible, for the ancient Greek culture but they still had foundational stories. They had the Homeric epics, other texts from that very early time, later texts that compile and retell various stories, and texts that use the stories (e.g., plays about Agamemnon).

 

So, the story of the prophecy about Paris, and his exposure, rescue, becoming a shepherd, and being asked to make the Judgement of Paris (to choose among the three goddesses)... are and were part of legend known to the ancient Greeks of Homer's time.

 

Yes, Romulus & Remus had the exposure & rescue story as well. It was not uncommon in the ancient world :)

[Aubrey]

So, the story of the prophecy about Paris, and his exposure, rescue, becoming a shepherd, and being asked to make the Judgement of Paris (to choose among the three goddesses)... are and were part of legend known to the ancient Greeks of Homer's time.

 

So I guess my Q is: how do WE know? Where have we gotten these legends from? Probably not the right way to phrase it--I'm not looking for an author, exactly, but...there is a basic canon of Greek myths that are generally in all the collections I've read. Sutcliff is including many I haven't heard. Where is she getting these? I can tell now that they're coming from somewhere because when I search the specific stories, they show up on legit sites, but...where did I miss it?? LOL--I thought my classics ed was better than this!

[kalanamak]

That's not in the Iliad, because the Iliad is pretty much only the story of Achilles and Hector. But yes, Paris was raised by shepherds. At his birth, it was prophesied that he would be the downfall of Troy, but his parents couldn't bring themselves to kill him so they exposed him, and he was saved.

 

I have always loved the image of Oenone as the giver of wine, and of their idyllic existence. I view it as a sort of Greek Garden of Eden, and instead of the apple of knowledge, there was the apple of discord, which brought the three goddesses to tempt Paris to long for someone even more wonderful and his place as royalty.

 

Ah, that ambition which burns us, but also marks us as human, accomplishing creatures.

[Mrs Mungo]

So I guess my Q is: how do WE know? Where have we gotten these legends from? Probably not the right way to phrase it--I'm not looking for an author, exactly, but...there is a basic canon of Greek myths that are generally in all the collections I've read. Sutcliff is including many I haven't heard. Where is she getting these? I can tell now that they're coming from somewhere because when I search the specific stories, they show up on legit sites, but...where did I miss it?? LOL--I thought my classics ed was better than this!

 

Ovid

[BarbaraL in OK]

...there is a basic canon of Greek myths that are generally in all the collections I've read. Sutcliff is including many I haven't heard. Where is she getting these?

 

LOL, I think you're asking really good questions! I bought the Great Courses DVD series "The Iliad of Homer" (Elizabeth Vandiver) recently. In the course booklet she discusses this background knowledge that Homer assumed, and points interested readers/listeners to this book:

 

 

 

"Early Greek Myth" by Timothy Gantz, Johns Hopkins University Press, 1993. Specifically Vol. 2, Ch. 16, "A very detailed account, listing all the ancient sources for each detail of the [Trojan War] legend"

 

 

Here's an example of the many sources for a legend: the Judgement of Paris, at Theoi.com

 

So, there are more than a few ancient sources for the legends known to the Greeks and, now, to us!

[Aubrey]

Here's an example of the many sources for a legend: the Judgement of Paris, at Theoi.com

 

So, there are more than a few ancient sources for the legends known to the Greeks and, now, to us!

 

Oh! That one came up, but I thought it was just a painting. :o

[kiana]

Here's a source for the childhood of Paris:

http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusFabulae2.html#91

 

(Btw, the story of this text is rather interesting.)