AP class into Medical school question

[Jonibee]

Regarding AP classes in the sciences:

 

If a student takes an AP class, say with PA Homeschoolers, and chooses not to take the test because of plans to apply to medical school later, does that AP class have to be reported as AP on the high school transcript?

 

And if it is optional, you would not want to state that the class was AP, right?

[snowbeltmom]

Regarding AP classes in the sciences:

 

If a student takes an AP class, say with PA Homeschoolers, and chooses not to take the test because of plans to apply to medical school later, does that AP class have to be reported as AP on the high school transcript?

 

And if it is optional, you would not want to state that the class was AP, right?

 

Unlike cc classes taken during high school, AP classes are not reported on the medical school application. This is one reason why many recommend AP classes over cc science classes if a student may be interested in medical school.

 

I would definitely have your student take the AP exam because it helps to validate the grade achieved in the class and is very useful for college admissions. More than likely, your student will not want to take credit for the AP class, but you definitely want the AP class listed on the high school transcript.

[Jonibee]

Oh, thank you. I was totally misinterpreting what I had read months ago and here on the forum today.

 

So taking the test is good and reporting it is good, but letting it count for credit at a university would be the choice of the student?

[Musicmom]

I'm no expert, but I would think you would want the AP designation on the high school transcript for undergraduate college admissions (shows the rigor of the course). Then just don't bother with the AP test (or don't use it for college credit), and instead take all the science prerequisites for medical school at the undergraduate college. I don't believe the high school transcript is used for application to med school (or any grad school for that matter)--only the transcript from the undergraduate college.

 

ETA: Oops, I posted at the same time as snowbeltmom and she answered the question much better!

Edited November 28, 2011 by Musicmom
clarification

[snowbeltmom]

I don't believe the high school transcript is used for application to med school (or any grad school for that matter)--only the transcript from the undergraduate college.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

Apparently, the high school transcript is considered for medical school. I was surprised to see that the medical school application requests the student to list all college level courses studied while in high school - even audited and "self-studied" classes, although I am not sure how they would verify the "self-studied" classes.:confused: AP designated classes are the only college level classes that are NOT to be listed.

 

ETA: I also responded to your post while you were responding to me.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm no expert, but I would think you would want the AP designation on the high school transcript for undergraduate college admissions (shows the rigor of the course). Then just don't bother with the AP test (or don't use it for college credit), and instead take all the science prerequisites for medical school at the undergraduate college. I don't believe the high school transcript is used for application to med school (or any grad school for that matter)--only the transcript from the undergraduate college.

 

ETA: Oops, I posted at the same time as snowbeltmom and she answered the question much better!

 

Except you can only list a course as AP if you've gone through the syllabus audit process with College Board (AP and Advanced Placement are brand names if you will and College Board controls that label).

 

If you don't use a certified AP course (either from an organization that has gone through the process or by doing it yourself), but the student takes the test, then you can list it as something like "American History with AP exam" and note the score.

 

IMHO, it is the test that gives weight to the course on the transcript, not the label on the course. That's not to say that you can't have quality courses without using AP, just that it's not about just saying that a course was AP level. (This is a problem that schools are having too. Too many courses that are full of students earning 1 and 2 on the exams. It is diluting the quality of the courses in the minds of some colleges.)

[creekland]

Just to clarify, taking AP tests isn't bad for med school applications. Taking the college credit due to high scores on the exams for AP Bio, AP Chem, and sometimes AP Calc - potentially AP Stats and AP Psych with the new MCAT coming up - is what some med schools don't want to see. They want to see the courses repeated at a 4 year college because those classes are considered difficult and "weeder" courses. Some med schools are ok with AP credit and most allow AP Calc. However, taking AP credits will limit one to applying only to those schools that are ok with it and most students want to leave their options open.

 

I opted to skip those AP tests with my guy in part because we wanted to save money and knew he couldn't use the credit. He was self-studying, so AP wasn't going to be on our course name anyway. He did take AP Stats and got a 5.

 

We're still deciding for this year with AP Calc and AP Psych, but will let his college med school adviser decide for him since he'll know where he's going by then. We're also going to let that person decide whether he accepts credit for his AP Stats score. The new MCAT makes these decisions quite tricky right now as few know how med schools are going to adjust what they want to see for pre-reqs based upon it. Most just figure they're going to change... ;)

[MeaganS]

Apparently, the high school transcript is considered for medical school. I was surprised to see that the medical school application requests the student to list all college level courses studied while in high school - even audited and "self-studied" classes, although I am not sure how they would verify the "self-studied" classes.:confused: AP designated classes are the only college level classes that are NOT to be listed.

 

AP tests don't count towards credit for medical school admissions. Your High School transcript also doesn't matter, they never see it. What they do see is all college work, regardless of when it was taken. So if you took a college class in HS, it would count, obviously.

 

My dh is a 2nd year med student and I was in charge of figuring all this stuff out, so my information is about 2 and a half years old. This is what we found with the 10 or so medical schools he applied to, though.

[snowbeltmom]

Your High School transcript also doesn't matter, they never see it. What they do see is all college work, regardless of when it was taken. So if you took a college class in HS, it would count, obviously.

I am confused when you say that the high school transcript doesn't matter when the medical school application requests that you must list all college level classes taken during high school on the medical school application - even those classes that you audited during high school and didn't receive a letter grade.

 

Did your child take college level classes during high school? If so, did he have to list them on the medical school application when he applied and was it a problem? I am still trying to figure all this stuff out and really appreciate the advice. The application I saw was last year's. I wonder if requesting cc classes taken in high school is a new requirement?

Edited November 29, 2011 by snowbeltmom

[MeaganS]

I am confused when you say that the high school transcript doesn't matter when the medical school application requests that you must list all college level classes taken during high school on the medical school application - even those classes that you audited during high school and didn't receive a letter grade.

 

Did your child take college level classes during high school? If so, did he have to list them on the medical school application when he applied and was it a problem? I am still trying to figure all this stuff out and really appreciate the advice. The application I saw was last year's. I wonder if requesting cc classes taken in high school is a new requirement?

 

CC classes aren't high school transcript stuff. They are recorded on college transcripts, which is why I said what I did. I don't know about taking classes not for credit, but even if a cc class is taken during high school, it doesn't count as high school as far as the college and medical school are concerned.

 

My dh didn't take any college classes during high school, although he did take AP tests and had to retake the science classes in college to get credit for medical school (medical school wasn't his original plan).

[creekland]

CC classes aren't high school transcript stuff. They are recorded on college transcripts, which is why I said what I did. I don't know about taking classes not for credit, but even if a cc class is taken during high school, it doesn't count as high school as far as the college and medical school are concerned.

 

 

I'm thinking the difference is that DE (Dual Enrollment) classes are counted as both high school and (sometimes) college credits. For my guy, his classes are on his cc transcript (and are college level, not remedial), but they are also on his high school transcript counting as high school credits. Med schools seem to not like it when students take Bio, Chem and/or Organic Chem at cc as those courses are perceived as easier than their 4 year counterparts.

 

With AP classes, there is a standard ending in the AP exam. Even so, as you mentioned, a fair number of med schools don't allow AP credit. With cc classes, so much depends on the professor and college with no common end of class exam. Of course, the same could be said of 4 year schools, but med schools seem to have their preferences among those, so perhaps they know the "standard" of incoming students better than cc? Or maybe they just firmly believe the 4 year class is more challenging based upon what generally happens. Regardless of the reason, they make the decisions and hold the keys, so we'll modify our actions to match what they seem to want.

[Teachin'Mine]

Just to clarify, taking AP tests isn't bad for med school applications. Taking the college credit due to high scores on the exams for AP Bio, AP Chem, and sometimes AP Calc - potentially AP Stats and AP Psych with the new MCAT coming up - is what some med schools don't want to see. They want to see the courses repeated at a 4 year college because those classes are considered difficult and "weeder" courses. Some med schools are ok with AP credit and most allow AP Calc. However, taking AP credits will limit one to applying only to those schools that are ok with it and most students want to leave their options open.

 

I opted to skip those AP tests with my guy in part because we wanted to save money and knew he couldn't use the credit. He was self-studying, so AP wasn't going to be on our course name anyway. He did take AP Stats and got a 5.

 

We're still deciding for this year with AP Calc and AP Psych, but will let his college med school adviser decide for him since he'll know where he's going by then. We're also going to let that person decide whether he accepts credit for his AP Stats score. The new MCAT makes these decisions quite tricky right now as few know how med schools are going to adjust what they want to see for pre-reqs based upon it. Most just figure they're going to change... ;)

 

See that makes sense. What makes absolutely no sense to me is how they view it differently if the course was taken at a cc instead of as an AP class - the content should theoretically be about the same. So how on earth do they justify one as okay and the other as being taken by a weak student who needs the class material twice??? :confused: Sorry - still annoyed at all of this. :lol:

[MeaganS]

See that makes sense. What makes absolutely no sense to me is how they view it differently if the course was taken at a cc instead of as an AP class - the content should theoretically be about the same. So how on earth do they justify one as okay and the other as being taken by a weak student who needs the class material twice??? :confused: Sorry - still annoyed at all of this. :lol:

 

Because the medical school application process is inane, that's why. :tongue_smilie:

[Jonibee]

Thank you for all of your replies. We live in the backwoods of Maine -- about an hour from any college/univ (or even Wal-Mart!). It is costly to go the paid-for online AP class route, and yet if my son does not have the standard of the rigor involved, it is so easy to do only a little more than fellow students we know -- and fool ourselves into thinking that we are excelling.

 

CC classes are not really an option for us, as around here you really only have to be breathing to get a passing grade at the CC. My older kids have done 4.0 in classes there with so little effort that it is embarrassing to compare to the standard I had for them in their 9th and 10th grade courses at home. My first 3 graduates all said high school with me was twice as hard as college. Sigh.

 

My thoughts are all jumbled with the thread about counseling -- I have a son now in 8th grade who wants med school, is pursuing advanced math and science and 2 languages right now. I really hate to think that I could mess up his chances because I am so ignorant. As others here, I've learned so much. There is so much to learn with both me and my husband not being college graduates ourselves!

 

BTW, I looked at that database someone posted about medical school applicants -- the last year only had about 80-some applicants from Maine. Geez, I am feeling more backwoods with every passing year.

 

Thanks for all the advice!

[Teachin'Mine]

Because the medical school application process is inane, that's why. :tongue_smilie:

 

Thank you!!! I knew there had to be a logical explanation. :lol:

[creekland]

See that makes sense. What makes absolutely no sense to me is how they view it differently if the course was taken at a cc instead of as an AP class - the content should theoretically be about the same. So how on earth do they justify one as okay and the other as being taken by a weak student who needs the class material twice??? :confused: Sorry - still annoyed at all of this. :lol:

 

Because... cc course content varies considerably. Around here it's rather easy to get As. In my high school the dual enrollment classes can also be super easy compared to many better 4 year schools. With AP, there's a standard and the test is proof (or not) that the standard was met, so some schools allow that. With cc, it's possible to get an A and yet miss a good portion of the material. Some people say they have good cc classes around them (and I don't doubt that some are good), but I've got proof near me that the colleges and med schools aren't that far off when they're wary about the content.

 

I don't know that they see it as a weak student as much as a student trying to slide by the "easy" way.

[creekland]

Thank you for all of your replies. We live in the backwoods of Maine -- about an hour from any college/univ (or even Wal-Mart!). It is costly to go the paid-for online AP class route, and yet if my son does not have the standard of the rigor involved, it is so easy to do only a little more than fellow students we know -- and fool ourselves into thinking that we are excelling.

 

CC classes are not really an option for us, as around here you really only have to be breathing to get a passing grade at the CC. My older kids have done 4.0 in classes there with so little effort that it is embarrassing to compare to the standard I had for them in their 9th and 10th grade courses at home. My first 3 graduates all said high school with me was twice as hard as college. Sigh.

 

My thoughts are all jumbled with the thread about counseling -- I have a son now in 8th grade who wants med school, is pursuing advanced math and science and 2 languages right now. I really hate to think that I could mess up his chances because I am so ignorant. As others here, I've learned so much. There is so much to learn with both me and my husband not being college graduates ourselves!

 

BTW, I looked at that database someone posted about medical school applicants -- the last year only had about 80-some applicants from Maine. Geez, I am feeling more backwoods with every passing year.

 

Thanks for all the advice!

 

You can certainly learn a lot here and on college confidential's pre-med site. I knew exactly nothing about preparing a youngster for med school, but now I feel ok with what we're doing - esp as merit aid and undergrad acceptances come in. Of course, I'll feel even better when he gets into med school - if he still wants to go that route then! ;)

[Teachin'Mine]

Because... cc course content varies considerably. Around here it's rather easy to get As. In my high school the dual enrollment classes can also be super easy compared to many better 4 year schools. With AP, there's a standard and the test is proof (or not) that the standard was met, so some schools allow that. With cc, it's possible to get an A and yet miss a good portion of the material. Some people say they have good cc classes around them (and I don't doubt that some are good), but I've got proof near me that the colleges and med schools aren't that far off when they're wary about the content.

 

I don't know that they see it as a weak student as much as a student trying to slide by the "easy" way.

 

I could absolutely see that -- if the student didn't repeat the course at the university. But what I was referring to is what Snowbeltmom had said in this thread:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327049&page=3

 

about how medical schools look at students who took the class in cc as needing to do that in order to "get" the material. IOW that they needed to take the class twice in order to do well.

 

Here's from her post on the guidance thread - as it pertains directly to this thread:

 

"I was told that it is a negative to take any pre-med science classes at the cc regardless of whether the student will use those class credits at his four year college.

 

My son is taking AP Chemistry this year, and I was planning on him taking Organic Chemistry next year at our cc. This class would have been listed on his transcript as a high school class as he had no intention of using the credits from this class to place out of Organic at his 4 year college. (In fact, our local four year private university would not even accept these cc credits.)

 

I questioned why is would matter what classes my son took while in high school, especially considering the fact that he was not using the credits to place out of any classes in college - these classes were meeting his high school requirements.

 

Many answered my question by stating that is would look like my son needed to take a class twice to "get it."

 

I then questioned how the med schools would even know what my son did in high school when he was not using any cc credits gained in his high school years at his four year college. Someone then posted me a link to the medical school application. The application specifically asks the student to list all college level classes taken during the high school years. The only exception was AP classes - those they did not want listed. Even classes that were audited or self-studied they wanted the student to list."

 

This thinking, on the part of the medical schools, is what prompts the description of inane. :tongue_smilie:

[creekland]

I get what you are saying and it makes sense for AP Bio and Chem. However, Organic Chem is generally considered the most difficult of the pre-req courses. It was even suggested to me that my guy take or audit the course first to get a taste of it, then take the "real" course at the 4 year school. Going off the belief that cc is easier, a student takes the easy course to learn some, then repeats the course at the harder U and it helps him get an easier A (should be true). Contrast this with the student who just takes the one course and gets an A. It looks like the student who took the cc course is the weaker student.

 

With stiff competition, weak is out. Traditionally it's been common for high school students to take AP, so that's expected. Taking community college classes as dual enrollment is newer and is probably seen in a similar light as the organic chem deal.

 

I'm REALLY glad I learned of this nick BEFORE I signed my guy up to take Bio and Chem at the cc as that was my plan (assuming they'd replace AP).

 

Inane? Hard to say as I can see their reasoning to an extent. Competitive? Definitely!

[Teachin'Mine]

From what Snowbeltmom shared, it sounds like your son would be considered a weaker student if he first audited the class. ;)

[creekland]

From what Snowbeltmom shared' date=' it sounds like your son would be considered a weaker student if he first audited the class. ;)[/quote']

 

Right. So we've changed plans and he's not going to. ;) Personally, I think he can keep up with anyone academically, but I might be a little biased. ;);)

[Teachin'Mine]

Right. So we've changed plans and he's not going to. ;) Personally, I think he can keep up with anyone academically, but I might be a little biased. ;);)

 

I'm sure he will! :)

 

Can you imagine this type of reasoning applied to other competitions? "No I'm sorry, but we can't accept your numbers from the high jump since you've been practicing and it's not fair to the others who tried it for the first time today."

 

And again, with biology, chemistry and physics, I don't see how a student who took it in cc would have an advantage over a student who took the AP class. If you go with what seems to be the consensus that the cc class is inferior to the AP one, then it would seem to be the other way around. No? I'll stick with inane to describe it. :)

[creekland]

 

Can you imagine this type of reasoning applied to other competitions? "No I'm sorry' date=' but we can't accept your numbers from the high jump since you've been practicing and it's not fair to the others who tried it for the first time today." [/quote']

 

From what I'm led to believe, one doesn't actually use much from the pre-req classes in med school as they start there from the ground up with what they want you to know. So, I guess their reasoning is to look for natural talent? I'm not sure. I'd agree with you that I think I'd prefer the doctor who was willing to work to be good as much as one with natural talent for difficult academics.

 

I've also been told that the US is the only country that "weeds" out so many potentially good candidates, but that's hearsay alone.

 

And again, with biology, chemistry and physics, I don't see how a student who took it in cc would have an advantage over a student who took the AP class. If you go with what seems to be the consensus that the cc class is inferior to the AP one, then it would seem to be the other way around. No? I'll stick with inane to describe it. :)

 

You got me there - especially when we're talking about dual enrollment as opposed to a student already in college opting to take a summer course at the cc before repeating the real one.

 

I think the wheels of change move slowly and dual enrollment is relatively new.

[snowbeltmom]

Can you imagine this type of reasoning applied to other competitions? "No I'm sorry' date=' but we can't accept your numbers from the high jump since you've been practicing and it's not fair to the others who tried it for the first time today."

 

And again, with biology, chemistry and physics, I don't see how a student who took it in cc would have an advantage over a student who took the AP class. If you go with what seems to be the consensus that the cc class is inferior to the AP one, then it would seem to be the other way around. No? I'll stick with inane to describe it. :)[/quote']

 

:iagree:

The whole process is completely illogical. As I mentioned in one of my other posts, my son will be studying calc. based physics his senior year. In order for there not to be a potential problem 4 years down the road with his medical school application, I am going to have to jump through the hoops of getting that AP designation on his class. How ridiculous!

[snowbeltmom]

It is costly to go the paid-for online AP class route, and yet if my son does not have the standard of the rigor involved, it is so easy to do only a little more than fellow students we know -- and fool ourselves into thinking that we are excelling.

You can have your "homemade" class designated an AP class by submitting your course material to the College Board for approval. I have not done this yet myself, but from what I have read, the process is relatively painless.

 

You would then have to find a school for your son to take the AP exam that is offered once a year in May. I make sure I have secured a location for my son by December of each year. Many schools have a March registration cut-off date.

[MeaganS]

From what I'm led to believe, one doesn't actually use much from the pre-req classes in med school as they start there from the ground up with what they want you to know. So, I guess their reasoning is to look for natural talent? I'm not sure.

 

Your question made me curious about this, so I just asked my dh who is an M2 and right in the middle of it all. He said that if he were putting together a list of very helpful pre-reqs for students, he would include bio, molecular bio, genetics, biochemistry, and chemistry. Physics and Calc haven't been helpful hardly at all, except that they are just good to know in general. He said O-chem has not been very useful on its own, but he does feel like he learned a lot of valuable lessons from that class, like how to memorize large amounts of information and how to study. He feels like the study methods he uses now most closely resembled those required in o-chem.

 

After talking to him, I'd say that some of the pre-reqs are useful, although not all, but if a student can't get through a class like o-chem, it may actually be a good indicator of whether or not they'd be successful in regular med school classes. Also there is a foundational knowledge gained from classes like these that would be very hard to gain at the same time as learning the massive amount of new information presented in med school. I thought that was interesting.

[creekland]

Your question made me curious about this, so I just asked my dh who is an M2 and right in the middle of it all. He said that if he were putting together a list of very helpful pre-reqs for students, he would include bio, molecular bio, genetics, biochemistry, and chemistry. Physics and Calc haven't been helpful hardly at all, except that they are just good to know in general. He said O-chem has not been very useful on its own, but he does feel like he learned a lot of valuable lessons from that class, like how to memorize large amounts of information and how to study. He feels like the study methods he uses now most closely resembled those required in o-chem.

 

After talking to him, I'd say that some of the pre-reqs are useful, although not all, but if a student can't get through a class like o-chem, it may actually be a good indicator of whether or not they'd be successful in regular med school classes. Also there is a foundational knowledge gained from classes like these that would be very hard to gain at the same time as learning the massive amount of new information presented in med school. I thought that was interesting.

 

That's good to know. Thanks for asking him and sharing! His assessment about a student's ability and Org Chem matches what I've heard from others, but it's also nice knowing he feels most of the other pre-reqs were useful!

[8filltheheart]

I don't know if this approach is an option for any of you, but how about dual enrollment at a 4 yr university vs. the CC? Our 4 yr university doesn't have dual enrollment per se. However, I have spoken to the admissions head and he told me that he is open to discussing ds taking math/science there after his AP exams. This university has its own reputable medical school, so I wonder if that approach might work for some of you?

 

Or perhaps EPGY's biology research seminar? http://epgy.stanford.edu/ohs/divisions/science.html or their college level maths? http://epgy.stanford.edu/ohs/divisions/university_mathematics.html

[Laura in STL]

My dh is an MD. We are in our late thirties, so med school admissions may have changed somewhat, but I have spoken with him about his thoughts on admission. He thinks that beyond the obvioius science/math prerecs, schools are looking at the whole student. Dh played in the university orchestra, had a music scholarship, minored in a foreign language, etc. There are so many great candidates that these factors come into play, especially in an interview situation. Dh had an undergrad classmate with a 4.0 and a good MCAT, who didn't get accepted his first year trying. Just one more thing to think about.

[MeaganS]

My dh is an MD. We are in our late thirties, so med school admissions may have changed somewhat, but I have spoken with him about his thoughts on admission. He thinks that beyond the obvioius science/math prerecs, schools are looking at the whole student. Dh played in the university orchestra, had a music scholarship, minored in a foreign language, etc. There are so many great candidates that these factors come into play, especially in an interview situation. Dh had an undergrad classmate with a 4.0 and a good MCAT, who didn't get accepted his first year trying. Just one more thing to think about.

 

I agree, that was a lot of our experience 2 years ago as well. My husband founded and was president of a University club and TA'd for a few years for a History of Jazz class. He was also head editor of a student publication. All of these were of great interest to his interviewers (many questions asked about them) even though they had nothing to do with science or medicine, and I have no doubt that they helped make him stand apart.

[StillStanding]

You can have your "homemade" class designated an AP class by submitting your course material to the College Board for approval. I have not done this yet myself, but from what I have read, the process is relatively painless.

 

You would then have to find a school for your son to take the AP exam that is offered once a year in May. I make sure I have secured a location for my son by December of each year. Many schools have a March registration cut-off date.

 

I am a bit confused. Do you need to take a "designated AP" class to take the AP exam??

One more question--anybody knows if SAT II exams are better than AP exams to "show" collages your kiddo has done a good job with the course??

 

Thank you (My dd is only in 9th grade this year, so I still have lots to learn).:001_smile:

[snowbeltmom]

I am a bit confused. Do you need to take a "designated AP" class to take the AP exam??

One more question--anybody knows if SAT II exams are better than AP exams to "show" collages your kiddo has done a good job with the course??

 

Thank you (My dd is only in 9th grade this year, so I still have lots to learn).:001_smile:

 

No. You do not need to take a "designated" AP class in order to take the AP exam. I am jumping through the hoop of having my homemade class approved by the College Board so my son will not have to list on his medical school application (if he decides to go that route) that he studied calculus based physics in high school - which for some ridiculous reason might look bad to the medical school admissions folks.:confused:

 

Some colleges request SAT II exams even if your child has an AP score in the same subject. My kids will take the SAT II exam around the same time that they take the corresponding AP exam.

[freesia]

I am a bit confused. Do you need to take a "designated AP" class to take the AP exam??

One more question--anybody knows if SAT II exams are better than AP exams to "show" collages your kiddo has done a good job with the course??

 

Thank you (My dd is only in 9th grade this year, so I still have lots to learn).:001_smile:

No, a student can self-study for an AP exam without taking the designated class. Many on this board have.

 

AP exams are designed to be college level classes while SAT IIs are designed to follow a high school class. APs are generally considered a indicator of more advanced knowledge.

 

HTH,

[StillStanding]

:grouphug: I love this forum.

[snowbeltmom]

AP exams are designed to be college level classes while SAT IIs are designed to follow a high school class. APs are generally considered a indicator of more advanced knowledge.

 

HTH,

While this is definitely true, many students take the SAT II's after completing the corresponding AP exam which affects the curve on the SAT II's.

 

Fwiw, my son took the SAT II in physics two days before he took the AP Physics B exam. He aced both exams but felt that the SAT II was more difficult than the AP exam.