Why are there so many bad high school teachers???

[Shawn On the Border]

When ds16 went to school in 9th grade, it was somewhat of a relief. I knew I wouldn't be happy with all of his teachers, but I thought he would learn a lot from them. After all, they are specialists in their subject! He had very little homework. The Geometry teacher gave only a few problems a day, and he gave them time in class to do it. The Spanish I teacher taught very little Spanish (so now, in Spanish II, he has huge gaps in his vocabulary and grammar). The only teacher that was really good was his religion teacher.

 

This year, ds16 is in a public school in a different state. The classes have up to 34 kids in them. The English teacher is pretty good, but he has only written 3 essays (with probably 3 or 4 to go). They are all in-class essays (so kids can't cheat). How can he learn how to write well without practice and feedback? When I was in school, we wrote essays every week.

 

The math and science classes are very hard, but the teachers don't seem to teach the material thoroughly. The Chemistry teacher skips the textbook, and gives occasional handouts which summarize pages and pages of the text. He rarely gives homework, and expects the kids to memorize his handouts, and then take the test. Does he really think most kids can learn that way? I have emailed him multiple times, but he is very vague.

 

Believe me, I appreciate challenging material in high school. But, I can't understand these teachers that don't teach, or don't teacher properly. I know there are good teachers out there (and ds has had a few of them), but I'm really surprised how many bad ones there are!

[creekland]

Your school sounds a bit like the one I work at. What I've discovered is:

 

- Many of the teachers are local and grew up with similar teachers to the types they have become. They don't know any differently.

 

- Many, MANY students are apathetic and won't do homework (or will cheat). If tests are difficult, they'll get bad grades. If they get bad grades, the teachers are blamed. Therefore, the tests become easier. At our school, it's to the point where the day before a test students study (or do) "practice tests" that tend to be almost the exact same as the real thing. Top kids don't need to study and "learn" that habit. Don't ask me how, but many kids still get lower grades. This aspect alone can really burn out the few really good teachers I've come across.

 

- In general, it's not our top students who go into education... it's students who aren't really good at anything else. That, alone, doesn't help. They are taught to follow the system, but not think outside the box (or perhaps aren't capable of doing so). In college they often don't have to take all that many classes in their field of study as long as they have the "teaching" classes.

 

- Many times there are fads in teaching (like the new math) and those have to go through a few years of trial before someone who can think figures out the fad might not be the best thing since sliced bread. For years I've been telling the head of our math department that the new math isn't helping our kids learn math. She teaches our highest level Alg class (College Alg). This year she told me that the students in her classes are the worst academically of any she's ever had. I counted back the years and noticed this is the first year that the students had from Alg 1 on up with our new books (CPM Math). Does she link the two? No. (She also is a sales rep for the book...) It'll take a while.

[mom31257]

My dh is a public high school history teacher, and I can tell you his experiences in the public system. This is his 6th year in public school after spending 16 years in private, Christian education. As far as textbooks go, only the AP students currently are issued textbooks at my dh's school. There's no money for new books and most are old and needing to be replaced. Each classroom has a set to be used as a reference for in class work. The school received a several million dollar grant, but if the money's not earmarked for textbooks it can't be used to purchase new. Textbooks are seen as the old way of teaching anyway, so I don't think there's any plan to replace them.

 

Teachers are expected to do lots of media presentations and have group projects in class. Homework is not required because the administration would rather them be working in class cooperatively. There seems to be a push for kids to teach each other and themselves, and teachers are seen as a facilitator of learning rather than the traditional view of a teacher.

 

At dh's school they strongly discourage lecturing and require teachers to give students options on how they show they've learned the material. He's expected to give a few choices on completing assignments. For example, to show students have learned a particular event in history, they might choose to write a story about it, make a brochure or pamphlet highlighting the events, draw a picture, etc. It's supposed to help appeal to the individual child's way of learning, but I think school's should be trying to help kids develop the ways that they don't learn so they can be stronger in all of them(IMHO). Bosses on jobs aren't going to give employees 3 choices on doing a particular assignment, so I don't see how it prepares them for real life.

 

Dh is a good teacher. He loves history and is a natural teacher. He was even teaching an adult Sunday School class when he was 15. There have been students who've told him they never liked history until having him, so that's got to say something. Because of the bad behavior of students, he really can't teach and manage his classroom in the manner he would really enjoy. He has to work hard to keep control which hinders true learning.

 

I guess I'm saying all this to say, don't automatically assume the teachers are bad. It could be that they are just bad teachers, but it could be their hands are tied by the system and difficult students as well.

This year, ds16 is in a public school in a different state. The classes have up to 34 kids in them. The English teacher is pretty good, but he has only written 3 essays (with probably 3 or 4 to go). They are all in-class essays (so kids can't cheat). How can he learn how to write well without practice and feedback?

 

If this English teacher teaches six classes, and 30+ kids per class, and assigned weekly essays, that would mean she would need to grade 200+ essays a week. If she spent just two minutes grading each one (which doesn't seem like nearly enough time), that totals almost seven hours a week just grading essays. I can see why good public school teachers burn out quickly.

 

I bet the real reason for in-class essays is to give the teacher time to catch up on grading and other prep work.

 

And, of course, you are correct: you can't learn to write without writing frequently.

[MBM]

We are very fortunate to have wonderful teachers and administrators at my son's high school. They are intelligent, caring, hard-working, and enjoy teaching. I am so grateful for them and all they do. Honestly, I like ALL of them.

 

I think one difference in this school -- a public school, btw -- is that teachers are paid well. Many make six-figure salaries. It's not unheard of for someone with a PhD to apply for a job here instead of a higher institution. As a result, we have teachers who also have expertise in the subjects they're teaching. I think that is partly what separates this school from others.

[memphispeg]

The pay is terrible, the students are apathetic, classes are too big, and there is v. little real support from the community. My eldest dd had quite a shock at her small LAC in fr. year! It is all so sad.

[Ester Maria]

There are three main issues at hand:

 

1. The teachers in the US are not necessarily subject matter experts. Many of them have very vague education degrees with a particular concentration, but are still far from actual subject matter experts. So you quite often do not get mathematicians teaching math, but people whose degree was a mix of rather general math and education (i.e. classroom management), you get people who are less than proficient themselves teaching foreign languages, etc. This is a big thing to keep in mind.

 

2. There is a culture of systematic "babying" of kids at schools; schools have stopped being academic institutions and pretty much became daycares where real education is secondary.

 

3. The #1 and the #2 combined have brought about a horrific lowering of standards and grade inflation, which has reached the point of pretty much no return. So you get kids with excellent grades, but very poor knowledge, accompanied by poor teachers, all in the game called "travesty of what used to be education". The parents have a significant role in it too, in that they like the current system and like when their kids are good on the paper, even if in reality they know nothing.

 

And then the cycle repeats with some of those students going into teaching. The blind leading the blind is what you get, unless you are lucky to live in a good district or to be able to pay for private education.

[MBM]

Money is not the issue, it's culture. The money here is good..most teachers have their children in private school or live in a pricier area with better schools.

 

Yes, culture definitely plays a role. Where I live, parents are very in-tune with their children's development and what is happening at school. Also, the administrators are willing to listen to parents and students. Students, parents, teachers, and administrators work together. We don't have the sort of divisiveness that makes the educational process difficult. (I really should say that I haven't come across it yet. We still have three more years to go.)

 

I do believe, though, that pay and time-off do attract good teachers in our district. My son's physics teacher was a former physicist; his math teacher, a former chemical engineer at Kimberly-Clark; another, an actuary with his FSA. The salaries are good enough for them to leave jobs that paid well, and I'd think the pensions and time-off play a role as well.

 

Regardless, at this point, I think we are very lucky. (Must knock on wood.)

[JumpyTheFrog]

In some states, you don't even have to major in the subject you plan to teach in high school. Even if you do, the majors at some schools might be not that difficult. I went to a private engineering school. I took about 8-10 math courses (on a quarter system), which wasn't enough for a math minor at our school. The state schools filled with future math teachers had math majors that had about the same requirements as our math minor. Which college is more likely to have math majors that really, really know their subject matter?

[mom31257]

If this English teacher teaches six classes, and 30+ kids per class, and assigned weekly essays, that would mean she would need to grade 200+ essays a week. If she spent just two minutes grading each one (which doesn't seem like nearly enough time), that totals almost seven hours a week just grading essays. I can see why good public school teachers burn out quickly.

 

I bet the real reason for in-class essays is to give the teacher time to catch up on grading and other prep work.

 

And, of course, you are correct: you can't learn to write without writing frequently.

 

I don't think most parents of school kids stop and think of the time it takes to grade, prepare lesson plans, etc. At my dh's school, state and federal consultants have put much more paperwork on the teachers the last two years. The new lesson plan form introduced this year takes about 30 minutes to fill out for one subject's lesson for one day. My dh only teaches two subjects this year, but some have 4-5 different subjects a day. The teachers there who are not overwhelmed and usually win teacher of the year awards are the ones without families. They are the only ones who have the time to do all that is truly required of them.

 

There is no way my dh would have time to grade lengthy writing assignments for all 120+ students he has in a day, especially with all the paperwork required by administration. Well, he would have time if he was okay with not seeing our children any during the school year. I know teachers get more time off, but that doesn't justify requiring every waking moment to be work during the actual school year.

 

He really can't do grading during class, either. If an administrator walks in and he's at his desk, he would get in trouble. He is expected to be up moving in and out checking on the students' progress during in class assignments. They also take a lot of their planning periods for meetings, usually 2-3 a week.

[Shawn On the Border]

The problem with this new school is not that it is too easy. It is that the teachers don't thoroughly teach the material. The math teacher teaches Algebra II as Algebra II/Precalculus (all in one year). I am already tutoring ds in that. Although he has always been a bright math student, the teacher expects the kids to learn much of the material themselves and come to him for questions. He is, at least, organized and posts lists of assignments and test dates.

 

The Chemistry teacher doesn't use the textbook, Zumdahl's World of Chemistry. He condenses about 30 pages of material into 3 page handouts, and expects the kids to learn from that. He only gives homework every few weeks, and it is pages and pages of very difficult material. I am going to try to get ds into another teacher's class, but the school is resistant to switching classes. If he can't switch, I'll have to do some tutoring, plus he will have to go to in-school tutoring. The problem is that the teacher never makes it clear what they are studying until it's too late.

 

I don't know how schools can expect good quality teachers with 150+ kids/day. I know there are some great teachers out there, but they seem to be the exception. When I was in school I was fortunate to have very good teachers, in a mediocre school. I am very disappointed that my son is having this sort of high school educational experience.

 

I read about many of you that homeschool, worrying over curriculum choices, or the rigor of your math or writing programs. Many of you are doing far more than the average school is doing. They may be making more posters, and doing more art projects, but your children are getting a far better education.

[mom31257]

.

 

The Chemistry teacher doesn't use the textbook, Zumdahl's World of Chemistry. He condenses about 30 pages of material into 3 page handouts, and expects the kids to learn from that. He only gives homework every few weeks, and it is pages and pages of very difficult material. I am going to try to get ds into another teacher's class, but the school is resistant to switching classes. If he can't switch, I'll have to do some tutoring, plus he will have to go to in-school tutoring. The problem is that the teacher never makes it clear what they are studying until it's too late.

 

.

What about Khan Academy? It had free Chemistry lessons.

[creekland]

There are three main issues at hand:

 

1. The teachers in the US are not necessarily subject matter experts. Many of them have very vague education degrees with a particular concentration, but are still far from actual subject matter experts. So you quite often do not get mathematicians teaching math, but people whose degree was a mix of rather general math and education (i.e. classroom management), you get people who are less than proficient themselves teaching foreign languages, etc. This is a big thing to keep in mind.

 

2. There is a culture of systematic "babying" of kids at schools; schools have stopped being academic institutions and pretty much became daycares where real education is secondary.

 

3. The #1 and the #2 combined have brought about a horrific lowering of standards and grade inflation, which has reached the point of pretty much no return. So you get kids with excellent grades, but very poor knowledge, accompanied by poor teachers, all in the game called "travesty of what used to be education". The parents have a significant role in it too, in that they like the current system and like when their kids are good on the paper, even if in reality they know nothing.

 

And then the cycle repeats with some of those students going into teaching. The blind leading the blind is what you get, unless you are lucky to live in a good district or to be able to pay for private education.

 

Add the apathy of the students and I agree with you 100%. It's sad.

[whiskeywife]

My oldest DS goes to the public school. He is taking a public safety class. For the first two weeks of the school year he didn't even have a teacher for that class. Now that he has a teacher, they watch CSI or other "related" movies three days a week. The other two days the students read a paragraph they are supposed to write about a crime from the daily paper.:confused:

 

Oh, and BTW, DS is failing that class because he doesn't like reading in front of the class.

[regentrude]

The Chemistry teacher doesn't use the textbook, Zumdahl's World of Chemistry. He condenses about 30 pages of material into 3 page handouts, and expects the kids to learn from that.

That alone does not have to mean he is a bad teacher. If he assigned the book as reading, the students would very likely not read it; they would either not want to, or not be capable. He may have made this experience. (All my colleagues agree that it is terribly hard to get college students to read their textbooks; it is an uphill battle).

[creekland]

(All my colleagues agree that it is terribly hard to get college students to read their textbooks; it is an uphill battle).

 

That's because they learned in high school that they don't need to, so why bother? If we could change high school expectations, students would likely carry on their 'reading' habit in college just as they now carry on their 'non-reading' habit.

[TranquilMind]

When ds16 went to school in 9th grade, it was somewhat of a relief. I knew I wouldn't be happy with all of his teachers, but I thought he would learn a lot from them. After all, they are specialists in their subject! He had very little homework. The Geometry teacher gave only a few problems a day, and he gave them time in class to do it. The Spanish I teacher taught very little Spanish (so now, in Spanish II, he has huge gaps in his vocabulary and grammar). The only teacher that was really good was his religion teacher.

 

This year, ds16 is in a public school in a different state. The classes have up to 34 kids in them. The English teacher is pretty good, but he has only written 3 essays (with probably 3 or 4 to go). They are all in-class essays (so kids can't cheat). How can he learn how to write well without practice and feedback? When I was in school, we wrote essays every week.

 

The math and science classes are very hard, but the teachers don't seem to teach the material thoroughly. The Chemistry teacher skips the textbook, and gives occasional handouts which summarize pages and pages of the text. He rarely gives homework, and expects the kids to memorize his handouts, and then take the test. Does he really think most kids can learn that way? I have emailed him multiple times, but he is very vague.

 

Believe me, I appreciate challenging material in high school. But, I can't understand these teachers that don't teach, or don't teacher properly. I know there are good teachers out there (and ds has had a few of them), but I'm really surprised how many bad ones there are!

Boy, I could have written this post, and my daughter attends a charter classical school that is supposed to be "the best". And a few teachers really are excellent and passionate.

 

But then there are the others. Like you said, little work, no textbooks! and sometimes no handouts - the osmosis form of learning, I guess - crazy.

 

She had a very tough time with a higher science (won't mention) class this far and she is very close to the top student. If she's not getting what the person is saying, no one else understands either.

 

We had to go around, with textbooks and khanacademy.com So far so good.

 

But yes, I expected ALL of them to be better than me. They weren't, though some are. She does have some great AP teachers.

[TranquilMind]

Shawn On the Border;: the teacher expects the kids to learn much of the material themselves and come to him for questions. He is, at least, organized and posts lists of assignments and test dates.

 

 

Yes, this! This is why we were homeschoolers before! I thought they'd get more from a "teacher". Ugh.

 

My kids have taught themselves to learn from books.

 

 

The Chemistry teacher doesn't use the textbook, Zumdahl's World of Chemistry. He condenses about 30 pages of material into 3 page handouts, and expects the kids to learn from that. He only gives homework every few weeks, and it is pages and pages of very difficult material.

What is up with Chemistry teachers??? I don't get this "not using the textbook" thing. We bought one anyway. I hope she's reading it, but at least it is there if she has a problem.

 

The problem is that the teacher never makes it clear what they are studying until it's too late.

 

 

YES!!!

 

I am very disappointed that my son is having this sort of high school educational experience.

 

 

I can relate, though the APs have been good.

 

I read about many of you that homeschool, worrying over curriculum choices, or the rigor of your math or writing programs. Many of you are doing far more than the average school is doing. They may be making more posters, and doing more art projects, but your children are getting a far better education.

 

 

Yes! Parents of younger kids just don't worry! You are doing fine!

[cathmom]

I bet the real reason for in-class essays is to give the teacher time to catch up on grading and other prep work.

 

 

While I'm not ruling this out, the real reason is the easy cut and paste made possible by the internet. It's the same reason I make my Spanish class usually write whatever they are writing in class in front of me.