What would you do with this K'er? (self-taught sight-reader)

[jplain]

I'm trying to figure out how to proceed with my 5.75 yo. Much to my dismay, she taught herself to sight-read when she was 4. She currently reads at a late first or early second grade level, comfortably devouring material around Lexile 400. However, when she does encounter an unfamiliar word, she guesses. I'm concerned that she's not absorbing phonics instruction (ETC), and that this'll eventually limit her reading progress and her spelling ability.

 

Though she can spell CVC words just fine, she doesn't seem to grasp other phonics topics very well. For example, if she's tackling an unfamiliar word, and I hint that the first syllable contains a long vowel, she'll often guess the short vowel sound anyway. Though she can read /ch/ easily, if I ask her what letters spell the sound /ch/, she'll guess "th" about half the time.

 

She's more than a little bit goofy, so although she's interested in spelling, I cringe at the idea of starting AAS with her right now. When using magnetic letter tiles, the tiles talk to each other as they jostle into position. She will deliberately assemble them out of order, and then make them argue with each other (each speaking in a different voice) about how to rearrange themselves. In the process of using the tiles as puppets, she might forget what word she was trying to spell. Hilarious, yes, but it also takes forever and makes me want to poke my eyes out. :lol:

 

Memorized rules don't seem to sink in. We tried FLL1 in September, and then shelved it. She could parrot back the definition of a noun, but clearly didn't understand it. No biggie, FLL can wait. We also have tried Bravewriter's The Wand, but that wasn't a good fit either, as some of the lessons seem much too esoteric for a 5/6 year old.

 

At this point I'm planning to have her go through the ETC half books after each whole book. She loves ETC, so I won't have to twist her arm. I may add Beyond the Code. I'm having her do a lot of reading aloud to me. We stop at every word she reads incorrectly, and we talk about how to sound it out. I find it strange that she tolerates this approach, but so far she doesn't mind it at all. I could pull out Phonics Pathways, but I'm not sure how best to implement it with this kid.

 

Maybe it's just a wiggly kid maturity issue? But given the level at which she's currently reading, I'm reluctant to wait it out.

 

So, if you've made it this far, do you have any suggestions? Keep on keeping on, or try something new? Try AAS with a whiteboard or paper/pencil instead of tiles? I'm open to (secular) curriculum suggestions if anyone knows of anything likely to be a good fit. :)

[boscopup]

You could try waiting another year and see if she's more ready for the phonics rules via spelling instruction.

 

My oldest taught himself to read at 4 also. In first grade, he got stuck at the 4th grade level words. We used AAS, and just 2 levels of that helped him get over that "4th grade slump". The syllable division is awesome. We used the tiles in AAS only for new concept teaching and for analyzing words/syllables. We did NOT use it for all the spelling of the words. He made every word explode, etc., so that would be way too time consuming. ;) The way we streamlined it, it gave him some fun play with the letters, but not so much that it drove me insane. I also just had to sometimes sit there and remind myself that he IS learning, even if I'm wanting to move on to the next word and stop exploding things. :lol: So it was a lesson in patience for me. We stopped halfway through level 3 and went to R&S Spelling 3, which seems to be going well, but it's still too early to see whether it will apply to his spelling in general. We're still at fairly easy words right now (but each list has some words he doesn't automatically know how to spell, so we still need to go through those lessons).

[Ellie]

I'd let her continue to goof off with the AAS tiles. How kewl is that?

 

In a few months, though, you might consider making spelling an Official School Subject, and most of you won't be surprised that I'll recommend Spalding. :D It's infinitely flexible, such that I'm sure you can do it in small spurts that won't mess with her creativity. Spalding teaches children to read by teaching them to spell; children who are already reading will fill in the gaps in their visual memory with phonics, and they'll learn how to spell those words (phonics is not the same as spelling, and sometimes visual memory just doesn't do the trick when you're trying to spell an unfamiliar word). And Spalding also teaches children to read and spell by writing, so penmanship is covered, as well as capitalization and punctuation and simple writing. Everything in one fell swoop. :D

[Cleopatra]

Oh my, when I read your post, it made me laugh! :lol: This completely describes my dd. We started to teach her to read with Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons and before we'd barely gotten into it, she was reading. So, of course, you panic :w00t: because you have hardly taught her any phonics rules and here she is reading!!! So you run and try to get the best curriculum to teach phonics, QUICKLY, :willy_nilly: so she doesn't get ahead of herself. The result???? Do you know how many hours I spent trying to get my dd to apply the phonics rules I taught her and how much of a struggle it was? She knew them, she just did not want to use them. I finally figured out that, because she never had to use the rules to learn how to read, it made no sense to her to apply them once she knew how to read. Yes, she made mistakes with certain longer words and I cringed :ohmy:, wondering if it would catch up with her and she would struggle at a higher level. Well, she's almost 13 and her reading is excellent. Rarely does she struggle with words, and (I noticed this with maturity) she now will try to sound out a word she doesn't know but, I think because I've always read to her at a high level, there aren't too many she comes across that aren't familiar. So take a deep breath and don't panic. At the age of your dd, I would make a game of sounding out some words while you are reading to her and gently give her some of the rules. That way, the instruction is in context, and I would think she'd then be more likely to apply the rules on her own. If it's done from a curriculum (out of context), these type of kids don't always seem to transfer over the phonics skills learned to their own reading.

 

As for FLL, all it basically does is get the rote definitions in the child's mind. At that age, it's perfectly normal for them not to "get" exactly how a noun, for example, functions. However, I did find the rote instruction very helpful for later on. FLL3 is where the grammar instruction really starts and I'd say it's one of the best programs I've ever used. We reached R&S 6 before they had introduced all the concepts that had been covered in FLL4. And the way FLL gently teaches and builds on concepts is excellent, without too much work for either the parent or the child.

 

Keep reading to her ..... LOTS! That seemed to resolve any spelling issues my dd had. You can use a program if she's interested in it, but I would, again, just try to do some spelling as a game or while you're reading to her. My dd's spelling became proficient enough that we dropped spelling in grade 3 (we used Spelling Workout until then) and haven't done a spelling program since. I simply choose words out of her writing which she spelling incorrectly and use them as her spelling words.

 

Oh yes, one other thing to mention ........ not having phonics completely entrenched in my dd's mind, IMO, allowed her to transition more smoothly into other languages. Each language has it's own phonics and it's harder to change something that is learned as a hard and fast rule.

 

What I've learned while homeschooling is that everything eventually falls into place, if not right now then later. With an advanced reader the problem you will fall into is that they will eventually be able to read books that they are not yet developmentally ready to fully comprehend. But have fun with her and, most importantly, READ, READ, READ .......... :001_smile:

[KristenR]

I'd let her continue to goof off with the AAS tiles. How kewl is that?

 

 

 

I was caught off guard when my oldest started reading cvc words at age 3. By four she was reading comfortably and now, half way through her Kindergarten year she is reading like a champ and almost done with OPGTR.

I noticed the same thing with phonics and didn't want her just sight reading and memorizing words so we added AAS about a year ago. She is currently on AAS2 and ETC4. She actually enjoys sitting and 'doing school'. That being said, we have LOTS of fun with it. Playing with AAS tiles is pretty much a right here. :D Why not let homeschooling be fun- ESPECIALLY at such a young age. I feel that if your child wants to learn and do some structured work then go ahead but let imagination and play seep into it.

[LindaOz]

Personally, I'd just let her keep reading, and when she gets stuck on a word tell her what it is so that she can keep reading.

 

And I would also use ETC on the side (although, not necessarily the 1/2 books if she is understanding the whole books properly). This will work on phonics and spelling skills and eventually the two (phonics and reading) will overlap. My ds7 is using ETC and we don't even use a spelling program because he is getting enough instruction from ETC. Sometimes I will dictate the words from ETC to him to write down - and that is spelling :) .

 

My oldest dd was reading at 3, and I later went back and worked on phonics with her too - I didn't know about ETC back then, we used Alphaphonics - and that was fine.

 

Anyway, that's what I would do. :001_smile:

[Annie Laurie]

Some kids can learn to read without phonics and have no problems later. (I know that is blasphemy here!) But honestly, I was just reading an article on TWTM site last night where SWB says that 60 to 70 percent of kids do learn to read in the same way they learn to talk.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/whole-language/

 

The reason why phonics is so important, is because if we just tried to teach every kid how to read with whole language, then it would be too late for the other 40 to 30 percent who do need explicit phonics instruction, by the time we could see that whole language was not working. Phonics does not hurt even the kids who learn to read on their own, so it's a much better policy to use phonics, most especially in public schools.

 

But when we're at home with our kids, we have a pretty good handle on how they're learning. So I think it's just fine when our kids teach themselves to read. All of my kids have, it's just how they're wired, and I spent too many years forcing phonics programs on them when we could have used that time for other skills they actually needed to work on. And in some ways, I took the joy out of their reading, with my phonics obsession.

 

SWB says just do a phonics program for spelling, like you mentioned. She recommends Spelling Workout, which is an easy to use workbook format. So Explode the Code may do the same thing for you. My kids have all done ETC as well as some AAS and the spelling in CLE LA and Elizabeth B's phonics videos. They all still read and spell well, in 4th and 5th grades. Except the 2nd grader, who does not seem to click with phonics, he sounds kind of like your dd. He is my worst speller, so I'm trying to stick with AAS for him.

 

I have had kids do exactly what you said with AAS- playing with the tiles and all. My 2nd grader has to illustrate everything, like drawing a gas pump around the word gas. But then he really does seem to remember the word well, as trying as it can be at times! I do just keep reminding him to focus and he can draw the picture, make the tiles talk or whatever, when we're done. He gets some free time with the white board and tiles when the lesson's over.

 

A lot can change as they get older, and I'd just pick one thing and do it consistently every day. I was listening again to SWB's teaching writing in elementary mp3 the other day, and I'm always struck by how much more relaxed her recommendations are than the recs here on the forums! She says spelling does not need to be a huge deal, 15 min 3 x week in elementary will do. Sometimes it doesn't really click and you don't see results until closer to logic stage.

[beaners]

I'll probably be flamed for this suggestion, but when my first started reading that early, but didn't necessarily have the phonics skills down for more complex words, I would often go through reading passages and write down the difficult words, have him practice reading the words, then give him the passage/book to read out loud to me. He very quickly got better at unfamiliar words. So I guess it was sort of a sight word technique. I did that for about a year.

 

The edition of McGuffey that we use is set up similarly. It lists each new word separated into syllables and with notation indicating long, short, hard and soft sounds.

[Annie Laurie]

I learned without phonics and never had trouble reading. I don't think it's the better method, but it obviously can work.

 

Ditto. Dh and I have always been strong readers and we didn't learn phonics. But I get why phonics is important.

[jplain]

Thanks so much for all of your thoughts!

 

DH started K having already taught himself to read, and he never ran into any problems with it, so I know it can work out fine. The possibility of a 4th grade slump bothers me, but I suppose I can put that worry aside for a few years.

 

...I would often go through reading passages and write down the difficult words, have him practice reading the words, then give him the passage/book to read out loud to me.

I like this idea. That way I'll have a better idea of whether she's guessing correctly based on context or if she's actually able to read a given word.

 

In a few months, though, you might consider making spelling an Official School Subject, and most of you won't be surprised that I'll recommend Spalding. :D

Ellie, I'm not familiar with WRTR. Do you think it offers something that AAS doesn't? She's already doing Getty-Dubay Italics, and she's been asking to start WWE1, so I don't want to pile on too much writing.

 

So, of course, you panic :w00t: because you have hardly taught her any phonics rules and here she is reading!!! So you run and try to get the best curriculum to teach phonics, QUICKLY, :willy_nilly: so she doesn't get ahead of herself.

I bought all kinds of phonics games, books, and products before realizing my son was already reading.

:lol: Yeah, I bought a few levels of HOP on clearance a couple years ago, and I was really annoyed when it became obvious that she was far beyond it. It is my own fault though; when she was 3 she constantly pestered me to open up HOP, and I kept putting her off, thinking she'd get frustrated.

 

I also just had to sometimes sit there and remind myself that he IS learning, even if I'm wanting to move on to the next word and stop exploding things. :lol:

Yes, but I may have to find something to do with my brain during the tile drama, or I'll explode. Maybe I'll dig up last year's Sudoku-a-day calendar.

 

Why not let homeschooling be fun- ESPECIALLY at such a young age.

No worries, I'm not trying to squash her playfulness. The squabbling letter tiles drive me bonkers, but I'm a good sport when she insists on holding up toes instead of fingers for math, I've homeschooled her in disguise under an assumed name, and I graciously stepped aside the day she informed me that one of our cats was her new teacher. (She spent 2 hours learning how to be a cat, minus litter box usage.) :tongue_smilie:

 

Personally, I'd just let her keep reading, and when she gets stuck on a word tell her what it is so that she can keep reading.

Heh. Except she doesn't ever get stuck. She guesses and then charges on, whether or not it made any sense. She's a busy kid! Yesterday she finally realized that she had been missing a lot of the funny bits in The Dragon of Doom, and she grudgingly slowed down...a bit. :glare:

 

The edition of McGuffey that we use is set up similarly. It lists each new word separated into syllables and with notation indicating long, short, hard and soft sounds

Sounds useful, will go Google that. :auto:

Edited November 25, 2011 by jplain

[jplain]

What is a 4th grade slump? Do you mean this whole dumb comment where everyone evens out in 3rd? I haven't seen it. My 9 year old would basically be in 4th based on his age and I haven't noticed any slump.

Here's the way I understand the theory: At or around 4th grade, school kids are expected to take on a lot more reading that would previously have been done by the teacher, including textbook passages and assignment instructions. In other words, 4th grade is when kids switch from learning to read to "reading to learn." Also, around 4th grade the complexity of vocabulary is purported to increase, because curriculum publishers assume all children are fluent readers. Any kids who have less than adequate decoding skills may start to flounder.

 

I have no idea whether this problem is real or imaginary, and whether it happens to kids receiving one-on-one instruction.

But if it is real, I'd love to avoid it! :)

[morosophe]

Here's the way I understand the theory: At or around 4th grade, school kids are expected to take on a lot more reading that would previously have been done by the teacher, including textbook passages and assignment instructions. In other words, 4th grade is when kids switch from learning to read to "reading to learn." Also, around 4th grade the complexity of vocabulary is purported to increase, because curriculum publishers assume all children are fluent readers. Any kids who have less than adequate decoding skills may start to flounder.

 

I have no idea whether this problem is real or imaginary, and whether it happens to kids receiving one-on-one instruction.

But if it is real, I'd love to avoid it! :)

 

And here's a study talking all about it, for those of you who want the research. Don't worry, this was definitely written for the layman. (The link is to the informational page, which includes a link to the .pdf with the actual report.)

[Tracy]

I'd let her continue to goof off with the AAS tiles. How kewl is that?

 

In a few months, though, you might consider making spelling an Official School Subject, and most of you won't be surprised that I'll recommend Spalding. :D It's infinitely flexible, such that I'm sure you can do it in small spurts that won't mess with her creativity. Spalding teaches children to read by teaching them to spell; children who are already reading will fill in the gaps in their visual memory with phonics, and they'll learn how to spell those words (phonics is not the same as spelling, and sometimes visual memory just doesn't do the trick when you're trying to spell an unfamiliar word). And Spalding also teaches children to read and spell by writing, so penmanship is covered, as well as capitalization and punctuation and simple writing. Everything in one fell swoop. :D

 

:iagree: I did this with my early reader (but we used SWR), and after more than a year, it is finally starting to stick. I can now see her using the phonics and rules to sound things out, both in reading and spelling.

[MelodyL]

I'm trying to figure out how to proceed with my 5.75 yo. Much to my dismay, she taught herself to sight-read when she was 4. She currently reads at a late first or early second grade level, comfortably devouring material around Lexile 400. However, when she does encounter an unfamiliar word, she guesses. I'm concerned that she's not absorbing phonics instruction (ETC), and that this'll eventually limit her reading progress and her spelling ability.

:)

 

I agree that she needs to learn phonics. Because you say she likes to play, she might like "An Ant - Learn to Read" better than other phonics programs. "An Ant - Learn to Read" teaches through stories, so it keeps kids attention better than Phonics Pathways.

 

Don't get me wrong, Phonics Pathways is a great book, but it mainly teaches through lists of words and isolated sentences, and requires a certain amount of discipline.

 

"An Ant -Learn to Read" teaches almost exclusively through color illustrated stories. She will probably breeze through the first pages, then slow down to a comfortable pace when she gets to the material that is new to her.

 

Studies show that kids who start with phonics retain it as a skill for life, but kids who start with memorization keep that strategy for life. This is why we have medical doctors who can't sound out the plethora of new medical words that are invented every year! They are smart enough to get through med school, but no one ever taught them phonics, and now they are too old to learn.

 

The ideal time to learn phonics is between the ages of 4-6.

[boscopup]

What is a 4th grade slump? Do you mean this whole dumb comment where everyone evens out in 3rd? I haven't seen it. My 9 year old would basically be in 4th based on his age and I haven't noticed any slump.

 

It technically may not be a "4th grade" slump for an early reader. It's when the kid learns to read by sight and doesn't get the phonics to get past the multi-syllable words of a 4th grade reading level. I saw it in my son, but that was in 1st grade, not 4th grade. ;) We had plenty of time to deal with it, and seriously, after about 3 months of phonics and syllabication, he jumped past the 4th grade words and was easily reading 5th and 6th grade level books. Now, less than a year later, in 2nd grade, he's somewhere around an 8th grade level of reading, as far as I can tell (he's read books that were grade level 7.3 with ease and comprehension).

 

So really, don't freak out about the "4th grade slump" for your early reader. It probably won't happen in 4th grade. :) Do teach phonics for spelling when you teach spelling, but it's ok to wait until 1st grade to start that, giving her another year to mature.

[Cleopatra]

The edition of McGuffey that we use is set up similarly. It lists each new word separated into syllables and with notation indicating long, short, hard and soft sounds.

 

:iagree:

Yes, this is a great suggestion!!! We just watched an episode of Little House on the Prairie where Miss Beadle was teaching a boy how to spell. He was at the blackboard, writing out the words and breaking every one into syllables. I could see that if a child learned to spell this way, when they had to recall a word, it would be divided in their mind into manageable chunks that would be much easier to deal with than the whole, complete word. What an epiphany! I wish I had taught spelling this way.

 

 

:lol: Yeah, I bought a few levels of HOP on clearance a couple years ago, and I was really annoyed when it became obvious that she was far beyond it. It is my own fault though; when she was 3 she constantly pestered me to open up HOP, and I kept putting her off, thinking she'd get frustrated.

 

If a child wants to learn, go with it :auto: The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work and then you are no worse off than when you started. I spent probably a year feeling that my dd couldn't possibly learn more than one language at a time, couldn't possibly handle high-school Latin in grade 6, couldn't do a number of things (you get my drift :tongue_smilie:), until I tried them and found out she could. She's now in a variety of different levels in her subjects from grade 6 1/2 up to grade 11/12. You just never know until you try.

[ElizabethB]

Nonsense words and then syllables and Webster's Speller.

 

Basically, a quick run through of the program on my how to tutor page, using the phonics concentration game for nonsense words, the Blend Phonics guide to show how to add in syllables and spelling rules. I would read and spell a few words from each unit while covering the spelling rules, skipping any spelling rules that are too complex. When you finish the Blend Phonics, move directly to Webster's Speller, doing the syllables then skipping to 2+ syllable words.

 

The nonsense words are very helpful for stopping guessing and promoting L to R sounding out of words.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html