Rosie Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I just posted on the K-8 board about my dd's writing being grammatically correct and how she doesn't seem to need grammar instruction... and then I thought, "Well, maybe I've got mommy goggles on. I'm the only one who judges her writing." So, can I have some honest opinions on this? She just turned 8 years old. We call her a 2nd grader but she is probably working more on a 3rd/4th grade level. It's hard to say because we don't use many "graded" texts. We just this year started doing any original writing. Last year was just copywork/dictation/oral narration. I did help her a bit with this. I gave her the idea of writing it in first person, present-tense narrative (though I didn't use those words!) and helped a bit with the first and last paragraphs. It is 95% her work, though. Oh, and I should add that she dictated this to me. I don't think she has the hand strength yet to both "compose" and "write" at the same time... * The King Dies I walk out of my mud brick house with my three children. We are going to a funeral procession. The king of Egypt has just died. The priests are going to bury the king in an underground stone tomb. My children dance ahead of me because this is their first time going to a funeral. They laugh and talk and play with other kids that are coming, too. As we get closer, we hear women weeping and we see people carrying baskets of food and clothing. I am carrying a bottle of wine and a basket of food for the king to eat and drink in the afterworld. We all hope that the king’s heart will be light when it is weighed against a feather by the god, Anubis, so that he can live happily. The priests bring the king into his stone tomb, and me and my children and all of the other people put in the tomb the baskets with food and clothing, and the jars with wine and water. Then the priests close up the tomb and we all go back to our homes. Later that day, as I prepare a delicious supper of hippopotamus and carrots for my family, I think of how much we loved our king and I hope that his son will be a good king to all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 I do see that "me and my children" should be "my children and I." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I just posted on the K-8 board about my dd's writing being grammatically correct and how she doesn't seem to need grammar instruction... and then I thought, "Well, maybe I've got mommy goggles on. I'm the only one who judges her writing." So, can I have some honest opinions on this? I do see some grammar and mechanical errors in her composition; but it's hard for me to tell if it's because she composed it, or if it's because you took down her dication. However, they are mostly concepts I would not expect an 8yo to know just yet, so I won't bother to list them unless you want to know for curiosity's sake. But they are there, and I would still recommend she start studying grammar soon. It helps kids (and adults! I've learned a TON of grammar with my kids) to get into the habit of improving their compositions using their grammar knowledge. hth BTW, I liked her composition overall! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I did help her a bit with this. I gave her the idea of writing it in first person, present-tense narrative (though I didn't use those words!) and helped a bit with the first and last paragraphs. It is 95% her work, though. One more thought. You said you helped her "a bit" with this. As to the errors I saw - I would probably NOT have her correct them if she doesn't even know what they are, and if she did this composition mostly on her own. What I would do, though, is work on her grammar knowledge via shorter narrations that you do work with her on. For example, if you are going to have her summarize a few paragraphs in a story, let her say one to three sentences that summarize them, you rephrase any that aren't grammatically correct, and then have her repeat the corrected sentences back to you. This will help her practice correct grammar, too, alongside her grammar study. IOW, she will see how grammar study applies to composition. Does that make sense? And again, the actual composition itself? I am very impressed that an 8yo came up with these ideas! It made for a pleasant read for me. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 I do see some grammar and mechanical errors in her composition; but it's hard for me to tell if it's because she composed it, or if it's because you took down her dication. However, they are mostly concepts I would not expect an 8yo to know just yet, so I won't bother to list them unless you want to know for curiosity's sake. But they are there, and I would still recommend she start studying grammar soon. It helps kids (and adults! I've learned a TON of grammar with my kids) to get into the habit of improving their compositions using their grammar knowledge. hth BTW, I liked her composition overall! Yes, please share what you see! I am curious! I'm brand new to this teaching writing thing so I'll take all the help I can get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 I would still recommend she start studying grammar soon. It helps kids (and adults! I've learned a TON of grammar with my kids) to get into the habit of improving their compositions using their grammar knowledge. Another thought - I personally NEVER used the grammar I learned in school to improve my writing. I could see absolutely no use for it. I'm starting to think, though, that maybe I just didn't have great teachers. There was never an excitement for language and writing imparted to me. I loved writing in my own time but never for school assignments. And my grammar was rarely corrected in high school so maybe I've been assuming that my grammar is better than it is. I was never shown how grammar instruction actually relates to writing. I still don't see it, but plenty of people are telling me it does, so maybe I really am missing something.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 * The King Dies I walk out of my mud brick house with my three children. We are going to a funeral procession. The king of Egypt has just died. The priests are going to bury the king in an underground stone tomb. My children dance ahead of me because this is their first time going to a funeral. They laugh and talk and play with other kids that are coming, too. "laugh" "talk" and "play" are items in a series, and they should be separated by a comma and only one "and." So, "They laugh, talk, and play...." (some might argue that it's fine to leave the "and"s in there - it depends on the writer's intent. I just wouldn't have let my newly-learning 8yo do it for schoolwork. I say learn and practice all the rules first, and then break them when you have a specific writerly intent in mind. :D) Also, "kids that are coming, too" - "kids" are people, so the relative pronoun "who," instead of "that," should be used. As we get closer, we hear women weeping and we see people carrying baskets of food and clothing. This is a compound sentence with an adverb phrase which requires a comma after it, so there should be a semi-colon after "weeping" in the independent clause. I am carrying a bottle of wine and a basket of food for the king to eat and drink in the afterworld. We all hope that the king’s heart will be light when it is weighed against a feather by the god, Anubis, so that he can live happily. The priests bring the king into his stone tomb, and me and my children and all of the other people put in the tomb the baskets with food and clothing, and the jars with wine and water. (I know you already know about the "my children and I" part) "baskets..." and "jars..." together are a compound direct object and don't need a comma to separate them. "my children," "all the other people," and "I" are items in a series. They need commas and one "and." Since commas are being used for the items in a series, a semi-colon should be used after the independent clause of this compound sentence. Also, "in the tomb" - should be "into the tomb." They are putting things somewhere - the things are not just sitting there. "Into" implies forward motion, whereas "in" implies being in something. So. "The priests bring the king into his stone tomb; and my children, all the other people, and I put into the tomb the baskets with food and clothing and the jars with wine and water." Then the priests close up the tomb and we all go back to our homes. Another compound sentence - needs comma after "tomb." Later that day, as I prepare a delicious supper of hippopotamus and carrots for my family, I think of how much we loved our king and I hope that his son will be a good king to all of us. I'm not positive, but I think this is a compound-complex sentence which requires a semi-colon (rather than a comma, because commas are already being used within the first independent clause) after "king." Yes, please share what you see! I am curious! I'm brand new to this teaching writing thing so I'll take all the help I can get! I'm not an expert, but those are the grammar issues I saw. Again, they are not things I'd expect an 8yo to know yet. My theory is that if I want my kids to apply the grammar they are learning so far, let them practice on very short pieces so they don't get overwhelmed. I coached mine in narrations very closely when they were that age, so that they would learn proper grammar. I still edit their (somewhat longer) narrations closely for grammar, but they know to expect that. They know to ask me if they have trouble with something grammar-related. Now. If one of my kids writes a longer piece that I have not assigned, I don't say a WORD about corrections! Another thought - I personally NEVER used the grammar I learned in school to improve my writing. I could see absolutely no use for it. I'm starting to think, though, that maybe I just didn't have great teachers. There was never an excitement for language and writing imparted to me. I loved writing in my own time but never for school assignments. And my grammar was rarely corrected in high school so maybe I've been assuming that my grammar is better than it is. I was never shown how grammar instruction actually relates to writing. I still don't see it, but plenty of people are telling me it does, so maybe I really am missing something.... If you learn grammar and use grammar knowledge, your writing will be much clearer. Compare her original piece with this grammatically-corrected (I hope! I'm still learning all this, too!) rewrite (heck, even try reading them out loud - pause at periods, do a shorter pause at semi-colons, do a shorter-still pause at commas - and take note of the effect the read-aloud corrections have on your understanding): "I walk out of my mud brick house with my three children. We are going to a funeral procession. The king of Egypt has just died. The priests are going to bury the king in an underground stone tomb. My children dance ahead of me because this is their first time going to a funeral. They laugh, talk, and play with other kids who are coming, too. As we get closer, we hear women weeping; and we see people carrying baskets of food and clothing. I am carrying a bottle of wine and a basket of food for the king to eat and drink in the afterworld. We all hope that the king’s heart will be light when it is weighed against a feather by the god, Anubis, so that he can live happily. The priests bring the king into his stone tomb; and my children, all the other people, and I put into the tomb the baskets with food and clothing and the jars with wine and water. Then the priests close up the tomb, and we all go back to our homes. Later that day, as I prepare a delicious supper of hippopotamus and carrots for my family, I think of how much we loved our king; and I hope that his son will be a good king to all of us." Another theory I have - once kids correct their compositions/narrations grammatically/mechanically/spellingly :D, sometimes it's as if they get a broader view and decide to change how they worded something or eliminate completely some info. that doesn't really matter. For example: "The priests bring the king into his stone tomb; and my children, all the other people, and I put into the tomb the baskets with food and clothing and the jars with wine and water." might become: "The priests bring the king into his stone tomb; and my children, all the other people, and I put into the tomb the baskets of food and clothing and the jars containing wine and water." or something similar. Sometimes they can see that one or two word changes reflect more accurately what they really mean. And that is one of the benefits of learning grammar - it gives you the frame to use, and then you can decorate your thoughts more beautifully. Esp. when you learn how to use a thesaurus to its full extent or start learning rhetoric techniques. (mind you, I'm very worried about posting this, because I know I have a long way to go in really cementing these concepts into my own brain...am open to technical correction from grammarians on anything I said incorrectly here, though...it actually took me about an hour to figure this all out, lol!) P.S. Please don't inflict this post upon your daughter - she might never write again, lol! I just went to this much effort in order to show you what appears to be missing from her knowledge (and would take a few years to solidify) and how gaining that knowledge could help her in the future. And truly, this is just a fraction of that knowledge and a fraction of what can be DONE with that knowledge. You'd have to get into the study and apply it to writing/reading comprehension/listening in order to more fully understand. But it's FUN! You gotta believe us fanatics! :D And if you do a grammar study three or four times per week, it won't take that long each day. hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I learned a lot from that, Colleen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Wow! Thank you for taking the time to write all that out! I appreciate it! And I will most definitely NOT tell my daughter a single thing that you said about her work! LOL! I understand how fragile writing confidence is, especially for new writers. All of the punctuation mistakes were mine since I was the one typing. The word choices were completely hers. So, I can see that I need work on comma and semi-colon usage. I've always been a bit fuzzy on those. I can see how your edits made especially the "read aloud" version sound better, but do I really want to commit years of study to this in order to improve punctuation a little bit? Is this only important if she decides to be an English major? She could use an editor for any other writing, right? I know you said this is just a fraction of the knowledge that can be gained and used so I'm still open to the idea that I just have no idea what I'm missing here... As far as her awkward wording in a few places, I did notice most of them (not the that/who one, though!) and chose not to say anything. We had already met twice to revise this from the original draft and I didn't want to overwhelm her. I think maybe you and I have different views on this aspect of teaching writing, too. I am okay with leaving some things in her writing unfixed and, instead, going over them out of the context of her personal work. When I see things like the need for lists to use commas and one "and" then I try to use copywork or casually point it out in a book so she notices it. I don't try to keep her pieces short so we can make them perfect. I want her to have the freedom at this time to explore various ways to write. I think maybe this mindset comes from reading Bravewriter stuff. Not sure. Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to say that I'm taking more of a long-term approach instead of expecting perfect grammar as the goal of every written piece of work. (And I'm kind of laughing at myself because this is maybe the 5th writing assignment she's ever done! It's not like I have tons of experience, but I do feel that I want to stick with this particular mindset in the way to approach correcting her writing.) Thank you, again, for taking the time to comment! I'll gladly hear anything else you'd like to add. The different perspective helps me see things more clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I learned a lot from that, Colleen! :lol: So did I!! I had to go get my R&S book to make sure of most things I was writing, because they're NOT cemented in my brain yet. Wow! Thank you for taking the time to write all that out! I appreciate it! And I will most definitely NOT tell my daughter a single thing that you said about her work! LOL! I understand how fragile writing confidence is, especially for new writers. You're welcome! All of the punctuation mistakes were mine since I was the one typing. The word choices were completely hers. So, I can see that I need work on comma and semi-colon usage. I've always been a bit fuzzy on those. I can see how your edits made especially the "read aloud" version sound better, but do I really want to commit years of study to this in order to improve punctuation a little bit? You wouldn't be committing years of study JUST to improve punctuation. You would be improving GRAMMAR and punctuation overall. See, it's not really "punctuation rules" - it's "grammar rules that punctuation supports." Punctuation helps grammar. So you have to know the grammar if you are to make punctuation do its job. You will be able to punctuate properly if you know grammar. Punctuation marks are like worker bees - they help the Queen Bee (grammar structure) do her job of communicating. Is this only important if she decides to be an English major? She could use an editor for any other writing, right? She could, but would she be able to find an editor who won't give up on her if she doesn't know her grammar? An editor's job is to EDIT, not write the thing or tell the writer how to write the thing. IMO anyway. I would think that the editor could do his/her job for the writer more efficiently if the writer knows grammar. Oh sure, writers-of-any-topic are going to make mistakes, but if grammatically trained, he/she should be able to efficiently take correction from the editor. Oh no, I fully believe that grammar is important for many aspects of living, many university majors, many jobs. If a person can *communicate clearly,* he/she has many more opportunities open to him/her. Think about it - isn't it just pleasant to interact with someone who communicates clearly, and who can understand easily what you are saying? It just makes LIFE easier. And then there's the whole argument I read here all the time - science/math/history/literature/art/music majors all benefit from the skills of grammar in writing. I know you said this is just a fraction of the knowledge that can be gained and used so I'm still open to the idea that I just have no idea what I'm missing here... I suggest asking on the high school board. I did not go to university, so I can't give you as detailed an answer as to what you are missing. I just know that I have read discussion after discussion on these boards about how grammar knowledge is applied to writing/communicating in many majors and many different types of jobs. Those discussions convinced me of grammar's importance. And I can't articulate things very well yet, but with being in R&S book 8 now with my son (and me barely keeping up with him - good thing I'll have a second chance with my daughter - they both learn more easily than I do because I'm busy mothering and organizing their lives!), I can tell you that the knowledge seeps through into unexpected areas of my life. The one example I use here all the time is that when someone is talking to me or trying to convince me of something, I mentally diagram their sentences. Then I can see if I agree or disagree, and figure out why. Or I can see if what they are saying is just gibberish and that THEY don't even really know what they are trying to tell me. Same with reading. That's why I kept talking about grammar being good for not only writing, but also listening and reading. It makes me feel competent in communicating, or at least much more competent than I used to be. As far as her awkward wording in a few places, I did notice most of them (not the that/who one, though!) and chose not to say anything. We had already met twice to revise this from the original draft and I didn't want to overwhelm her. Definitely. And this is why I mentioned using shorter narration pieces combined with her current grammar knowledge. Then her application learning won't be overwhelming. "awkward wording..." See, there are specific REASONS why the wording was awkward. If you can articulate those to her (after she learns the grammar concept), it will be easier for her to fix. You and she can USE the concept knowledge and the vocabulary of grammar to discuss her writing. It just makes the editing discussion more objective instead of subjective. "That sounds awkward! Fix it." is subjective, whereas explaining the difference between "into" and "in" is objective. It helps lessen the blow to the writer, so to speak. Writing *is* personal - grammar takes it out of the personal space and polishes it up. I think maybe you and I have different views on this aspect of teaching writing, too. I am okay with leaving some things in her writing unfixed and, instead, going over them out of the context of her personal work. And this is why I mentioned that when my kids write longer pieces for fun on their own, I don't touch those. When I see things like the need for lists to use commas and one "and" then I try to use copywork or casually point it out in a book so she notices it. I don't try to keep her pieces short so we can make them perfect. I want her to have the freedom at this time to explore various ways to write. I think maybe this mindset comes from reading Bravewriter stuff. Not sure. Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to say that I'm taking more of a long-term approach instead of expecting perfect grammar as the goal of every written piece of work. I can see why you'd say we have a different view on the teaching this aspect of writing. However, I, too, want my kids to have freedom to explore different ways to write. I just don't make that part of our formal school time. What I make part of required schoolwork is the short and focused writing assignments. Kind of like saying, "You have to eat three bites of beets, even if you don't like them," lol. I have found that doing it this way has helped my kids to build up to longer pieces that still don't take a long time to edit, because their grammar knowledge has grown right along with their skills in writing. I wouldn't subject my kid to the freedom of writing a longer piece and then editing every single mistake, if they'd never had practice on shorter pieces. It would be way too frustrating - thus my plea not to show my post to your daughter. :D (And I'm kind of laughing at myself because this is maybe the 5th writing assignment she's ever done! It's not like I have tons of experience, but I do feel that I want to stick with this particular mindset in the way to approach correcting her writing.) Thank you, again, for taking the time to comment! I'll gladly hear anything else you'd like to add. The different perspective helps me see things more clearly. I can't think of anything else. The grammar part of my brain is now fried for the night. LOL!! But yes, ultimately it will boil down to your preferred way of teaching. I guess, if I were you, I'd ask myself if I'm willing to let her go through the next ten years writing longer pieces, but never really knowing if the frame of communicating clearly (to others who are not her Mom) is within her compositions. Compositions are also practice for communicating in real life after formal education is finished. I dunno - take something such as horseback riding skills. Does one really need them? Well, if one is going to be a cowboy, one needs them. If one is going to board horses for others, one needs them. If one is going to be a doctor, one doesn't need them. But a doctor is going to need grammar skills. So is a lawyer, a car dealer, a cashier, a file clerk, a secretary, a nurse, a judge, a car repair person, a lab technician, etc. Communication is so basic to being human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_midori Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 "awkward wording..." See, there are specific REASONS why the wording was awkward. If you can articulate those to her (after she learns the grammar concept), it will be easier for her to fix. You and she can USE the concept knowledge and the vocabulary of grammar to discuss her writing. It just makes the editing discussion more objective instead of subjective. "That sounds awkward! Fix it." is subjective, whereas explaining the difference between "into" and "in" is objective. It helps lessen the blow to the writer, so to speak. Writing *is* personal - grammar takes it out of the personal space and polishes it up. Very good point! I was just talking with a friend the other day about grammar and she commented as to how she didn't have a specific curriculum or "sit down and learn" style for this because she was very good at all the rules on the fly & could make your sort of analysis a part of everyday writing. I told her that I loved the idea but it wouldn't work for me - I am able to proof-read, but I can only say "that sounds awkward" or "I know that isn't how you should word that..." but I can't explain WHY. I need a solid grammar book in front of me to explain how it is wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Thank you, again, Colleen. You've given me a lot to think about. I can't say I've jumped on the grammar bandwagon yet, but I'm at least starting to see a few reasons where grammar can actually be important and not just a waste of time. I started yesterday talking with my girls about nouns and a bit about adjectives. We were naming any nouns we heard people say. They were having fun... and if we're going to do grammar I want to keep it fun. I'm going to get MCT Island for them for Christmas (hehe!) and start it in January so I guess they'll be getting some grammar this year! Still not sure if we'll do it every year, though... So, thank you! I'm sure I'll be thinking about these thing for a while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) I can't say I've jumped on the grammar bandwagon yet, but I'm at least starting to see a few reasons where grammar can actually be important and not just a waste of time. You're a tough customer! hahaha, just kidding. :D Seriously, it's good to know and be confident in your reasons for doing something or not doing something. ETA: About wasting time - you can certainly waste time doing grammar overkill. But, if you decide to go for it, just know that there are also time-efficient ways of studying grammar and still getting a thorough grasp on it. Edited November 25, 2011 by Colleen in NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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