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Bravewriter and Michael Clay Thompson...


Rosie
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Are they compatible?

 

I have The Writer's Jungle. I'm thinking of buying MCT Island level. Are these programs too different in philosophy to work together?

 

I'm one of those people who doesn't see the need for extensive grammar instruction - at least for my kids. Once in elementary, once in middle school, once in high school. My 8 year old intuitively understands correct grammar from reading so much. Dictation is almost pointless because she rarely makes mistakes. She writes grammatically. I don't see a reason to study grammar so much when she doesn't seem to need it.

 

I like the whole to parts philosophy in Bravewriter where they "just write" and then adjust it later to fit a specific form instead of writing with a form in mind. I know MCT is coming from the opposite perspective of learning to write a sentence, then a paragraph, then an essay. I'm thinking of just getting the Island level and not the rest... but, I just don't know!

 

Though I don't see the point of her learning much grammar, I do want her to be "grammar literate" so she knows what people are referring to when she hears the terms. I like how MCT presents grammar. It seems like it would fit our style.

 

But does the philosophy clash too much with Bravewriter (which I'm not willing to give up)?

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Bravewriter complements MCT very well, except you would be doing more formal grammar study than Julie Bogart seems to promote. Honestly, however, the downplaying of grammar study is something where I personally disagree with her philosophy. I don't think most students need 12 years of it, but I do think it should be done more than 3 times even with a child whose strength is verbal & written expression.

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Bravewriter complements MCT very well, except you would be doing more formal grammar study than Julie Bogart seems to promote. Honestly, however, the downplaying of grammar study is something where I personally disagree with her philosophy. I don't think most students need 12 years of it, but I do think it should be done more than 3 times even with a child whose strength is verbal & written expression.

 

Would you mind explaining how exactly Bravewriter compliments MCT?

 

Also, I'm curious as to why you think grammar should be studied more than 3 times? I don't use the grammar I learned in school. I've just never been convinced that it is important for people who can pick it up intuitively. I'm willing to be wrong on that, though, and would like to know if I am!

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I don't know Bravewriter (except by the good reputation it has on the forum) but our public school has much the same general philosophy in the way ot approachs writing (and students write a great deal). Personally I want BOTH.

 

MCT is a dream for me because we can have our "formal grammar" instruction happen in a very fun way. Mr Thompson has an obvious love of language and that enthusiasm spills over into the program. I can't imagine it would seriously clash with any writing program, and personally I want more than an "intuitive sense" of grammar.

 

I do not believe being free in ones writing and being knowledgeable about the formal elements are antagonistic ideas. Much as with math education there is a Third Way that incorporates both.

 

Bill

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I do not believe being free in ones writing and being knowledgeable about the formal elements are antagonistic ideas. Much as with math education there is a Third Way that incorporates both.

 

Bill

 

I don't believe they are antagonistic. I just honestly don't see a reason to study grammar very much. I don't want to waste our time. I'd rather see my kids playing make-believe, painting, or jumping on the trampoline than have them learn the formal names year after year of things they intuitively understand and use already. (Just like how I freely have them skip pages in math that they already understand.)

 

If someone can show me a good reason to study grammar more than 3 times I'm open to hearing it!

 

I do think the two ways of teaching writing are antagonistic, though.. I guess you'd call them whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole. That's more specifically what I'm wondering about when I ask if the two programs are compatible. I realize that learning grammar will not hinder a whole-to-parts method of writing instruction, but will the parts-to-whole premise that MCT starts with clash with what we're doing with Bravewriter?

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"Why is grammar fun and valuable? Grammar reveals to us the beauty and power of our own minds. With only eight kinds of words and two sides (subject and predicate) of each idea, we can make the plays of Shakespeare, or the novels of Toni Morrison, or the poems of Elizabeth Bishop. No system, so gorgeously elegant, could be expected to make such a language. Through grammar we see the simple form of our binary minds; in all of our sentences,

however elaborate, we are making a predicate about a subject, and this reveals the meaning of clarity. For each sentence or idea, I must know both of these two things: what you are talking about, and what you are saying about it. For each paragraph of sentences, I must know what the paragraph is about, and what you are saying about it. For each essay of paragraphs, I must know what the essay is about, and what you are saying about it. A sentence, with its two sides, is a model of the mind.......

Another way to think about why grammar is fun is to ask, what is not fun? The feeling of confusion...is not fun. The off-center feeling of struggling with one’s own ignorance to accomplish just an ordinary thing is not fun. The private knowledge that you don’t even know which pronoun to use in your own language, this is not fun. The low self-esteem of guessing your way through commas, and spattering words around like a wordy Jackson Pollack, not really controlling where they will land or why, this is not fun. It is not fun to have a peer correct your usage, make your verb plural, shift your wrong pronoun to the object case where it belongs, or gently remind you that your sentence is a fragment."

Michael Clay Thompson

http://aea11gt.pbworks.com/f/developing-verbal-talent.pdf

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Not at all. It's parts, but it's not how you are imagining it. It's not worksheet after worksheet of circle this and underline that. It's very creative and engaging. It's a lot of discussing and thinking creatively.

 

 

OK, so, thinking about this more...

 

I think it may be the PARAGRAPH teaching that I'm worried about more than the sentence teaching, so we'll probably be alright with at least the Island level. My dd already knows how to form sentences well so giving her an understanding of their structure should not hinder her in that. It will just give definitions and clarity.

 

What I don't want is something that teaches a student to write a paragraph with a topic sentence at the beginning and a few supporting sentences after... and then expanding that into the 5 paragraph essay form. I realize that she will eventually need to learn that but I don't want her writing stifled by being squeezed into a mold too early. She's only just turned eight. Her writing right now is fluid and pleasant to read (once we get to the final draft). I don't want to go backwards to awkward, short sentences because she's thinking too much about form. Does that even make sense? I'm still working through all of this in my own mind...

 

I'm getting the sense that MCT is different than the run-of-the-mill grammar/writing curriculum, not only in tone, but maybe also in philosophy....

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"Why is grammar fun and valuable? Grammar reveals to us the beauty and power of our own minds. With only eight kinds of words and two sides (subject and predicate) of each idea, we can make the plays of Shakespeare, or the novels of Toni Morrison, or the poems of Elizabeth Bishop. No system, so gorgeously elegant, could be expected to make such a language. Through grammar we see the simple form of our binary minds; in all of our sentences,

however elaborate, we are making a predicate about a subject, and this reveals the meaning of clarity. For each sentence or idea, I must know both of these two things: what you are talking about, and what you are saying about it. For each paragraph of sentences, I must know what the paragraph is about, and what you are saying about it. For each essay of paragraphs, I must know what the essay is about, and what you are saying about it. A sentence, with its two sides, is a model of the mind.......

Another way to think about why grammar is fun is to ask, what is not fun? The feeling of confusion...is not fun. The off-center feeling of struggling with one’s own ignorance to accomplish just an ordinary thing is not fun. The private knowledge that you don’t even know which pronoun to use in your own language, this is not fun. The low self-esteem of guessing your way through commas, and spattering words around like a wordy Jackson Pollack, not really controlling where they will land or why, this is not fun. It is not fun to have a peer correct your usage, make your verb plural, shift your wrong pronoun to the object case where it belongs, or gently remind you that your sentence is a fragment."

Michael Clay Thompson

http://aea11gt.pbworks.com/f/developing-verbal-talent.pdf

 

 

Alright, well, I definitely appreciate that he is so passionate about the subject - a passionate teacher is what makes a subject interesting - but I'm still not seeing the NEED for 12 years (or even 5-6 years) of grammar instruction. My dd's writing is clear. She knows when something does not sound right and changes it. We don't have problems with usage, plural/singular verbs, wrong pronouns (though I'll admit I don't remember what the "object case" means), or sentence fragments. And, if we do run across something like that, I read it out loud to her and she notices and corrects it "by ear."

 

I'm truly not trying to be difficult. I just don't see the need....

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"Why is grammar fun and valuable? Grammar reveals to us the beauty and power of our own minds. With only eight kinds of words and two sides (subject and predicate) of each idea, we can make the plays of Shakespeare, or the novels of Toni Morrison, or the poems of Elizabeth Bishop. No system, so gorgeously elegant, could be expected to make such a language. Through grammar we see the simple form of our binary minds; in all of our sentences,

however elaborate, we are making a predicate about a subject, and this reveals the meaning of clarity. For each sentence or idea, I must know both of these two things: what you are talking about, and what you are saying about it. For each paragraph of sentences, I must know what the paragraph is about, and what you are saying about it. For each essay of paragraphs, I must know what the essay is about, and what you are saying about it. A sentence, with its two sides, is a model of the mind.......

Another way to think about why grammar is fun is to ask, what is not fun? The feeling of confusion...is not fun. The off-center feeling of struggling with one’s own ignorance to accomplish just an ordinary thing is not fun. The private knowledge that you don’t even know which pronoun to use in your own language, this is not fun. The low self-esteem of guessing your way through commas, and spattering words around like a wordy Jackson Pollack, not really controlling where they will land or why, this is not fun. It is not fun to have a peer correct your usage, make your verb plural, shift your wrong pronoun to the object case where it belongs, or gently remind you that your sentence is a fragment."

Michael Clay Thompson

http://aea11gt.pbworks.com/f/developing-verbal-talent.pdf

 

 

Wow... now I really am tempted to spend that $200... off to forum search MCT before I derail this thread! :D

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I'm currently using Town. It's not like that. I tried programs like that with my son and it didn't work for him. He basically didn't need it. His writing turned out much better without the steps. So I do know what you are talking about.

 

In fact, I came across programs that claimed a paragraph had to have five sentences in it. :eek:

 

I honestly think you will like MCT's books.

 

Yes, I'm thinking I will like them the more I read about them. It really helps to know that it's not the kind of program that forces children into the 5 sentence paragraph form!

 

I just wish the books weren't so expensive!

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Again, it's not like how you are imagining it though. He recommends to use the grammar book first and get through it quickly. We finished the grammar book working fairly slowly in less than 2 months. So if MCT wrote 12 years worth of grammar books (which I realize he did not) one wouldn't spend more than 2 years in total focused on just grammar. The other books tie into the grammar, but it's not worksheets of circle this and underline that.

 

Ack...it's hard to explain! ;)

 

 

OK, but don't the town and voyage levels mostly repeat what is in the Island level? That's what it seems like from samples - like, maybe we could skip the town level or something. I just really don't want to waste time. Is that obvious enough yet?! LOL!

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I think it may be the PARAGRAPH teaching that I'm worried about more than the sentence teaching, so we'll probably be alright with at least the Island level. My dd already knows how to form sentences well so giving her an understanding of their structure should not hinder her in that. It will just give definitions and clarity.

 

What I don't want is something that teaches a student to write a paragraph with a topic sentence at the beginning and a few supporting sentences after... and then expanding that into the 5 paragraph essay form. I realize that she will eventually need to learn that but I don't want her writing stifled by being squeezed into a mold too early. She's only just turned eight. Her writing right now is fluid and pleasant to read (once we get to the final draft). I don't want to go backwards to awkward, short sentences because she's thinking too much about form. Does that even make sense? I'm still working through all of this in my own mind...

 

I'm getting the sense that MCT is different than the run-of-the-mill grammar/writing curriculum, not only in tone, but maybe also in philosophy....

 

No, MCT's guidance in Paragraph Town is anything but formulaic. One of the big criticisms that some people have of it is that it is TOO open-ended.

 

I don't have time to write much today, but I'll try to remember to come back later and expand upon it.

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OK, but don't the town and voyage levels mostly repeat what is in the Island level? That's what it seems like from samples - like, maybe we could skip the town level or something. I just really don't want to waste time. Is that obvious enough yet?! LOL!

 

Time spent with MCT can never be called a waste. :tongue_smilie:

I know I sound like a groupie. :blushing:

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No, MCT's guidance in Paragraph Town is anything but formulaic. One of the big criticisms that some people have of it is that it is TOO open-ended.

 

I don't have time to write much today, but I'll try to remember to come back later and expand upon it.

 

I would REALLY appreciate if you would do that! I've been searching on the forums but still can't seem to get a feel for how the program works exactly!

 

(I like open-ended programs, by the way...)

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He has a power point slide show/presentation on his web site that talks about how to implement the books. At first it felt a bit weird to me. I didn't know where he was going with the whole thing, but after getting into it it's great and makes sense to me now.

 

I'm not a schedule sort of person. We crack the books and work as long as it feels right. So I'm not disturbed by the fact it's not conducive to a rigid schedule. I know some people need/like that.

 

Yep, I've seen the slideshow. I would have no problem with implementing it the way he says to. We are pretty free-flow here in how we do school...

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Are they compatible?

 

I have The Writer's Jungle. I'm thinking of buying MCT Island level. Are these programs too different in philosophy to work together?

 

I think that Brave Writer and MCT work beautifully together. I like and use elements from both programs.

 

 

Would you mind explaining how exactly Bravewriter compliments MCT?

 

Both teach you to fill your mind with beautiful writing.

 

BraveWriter focuses more on freeing yourself to generate ideas -- freewrites, narrowing and expanding, keen observation.

 

MCT is more about choosing specific ideas. It helps you examine individual word choices, phrasing, etc. and evaluate which ones work and why.

 

If someone can show me a good reason to study grammar more than 3 times I'm open to hearing it!

 

I don't think that grammar should be studied a specific number of times. I think that it should be an ongoing process. I think that grammar should be constantly reviewed by being put into practice. There is a lot more to grammar than the parts of speech, parts of a sentence, or even diagramming. Being fluent in the tools of grammar means that you can analyze different wording choices and have an intelligent conversation regarding which one is better and why.

 

I looked briefly at your daughter's writing sample. I like it. However, two things jumped out at me. (1) She dictated the story and you write it. So, you put in all the punctuation and spelled all the words. If she were to do all the handwriting by herself, there would probably be some grammar mistakes. Even though kids speak in complete and complex sentences, young writers often don't punctuate their writing in complete sentences when doing the handwriting. (2) It is a narrative. In general, it is easier for kids to write stories than more formal academic pieces. Of course, an 8 year old doesn't need to do more academic writing.

 

Here is one way that I mesh BraveWriter and MCT. I use The Arrow and DD writes the passages from dictation. We also pick a sentence from the passage and do an MCT four level analysis from it. We discuss how the grammar supports the ideas that the writing is trying to communicate. Then, for good measure, I have DD make an imitation sentence a la Killgallon.

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Would you all mind taking a look at my dd's writing sample here...

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=326892

 

... and tell me what you think? Thanks!

 

She writes very well. It is a small thing, but she also misuses the objective pronoun "me" instead of using the objective pronoun "I" in this writing sample. This is an easy enough fix (if one knows the difference) and I would not change her easy writing style, as it is quite nice.

 

But MCT is not going to undo anything that is already good (it inspires good writing) but it would open up an understanding of the grammatical underpinnings of the language.

 

MCT goes way beyond "grammar," however. It gets kids to think about the sounds words can make and how those sounds (when strung together) can effect the impact of the writing on readers.

 

It is really good stuff!

 

Bill

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Both teach you to fill your mind with beautiful writing.

 

BraveWriter focuses more on freeing yourself to generate ideas -- freewrites, narrowing and expanding, keen observation.

 

MCT is more about choosing specific ideas. It helps you examine individual word choices, phrasing, etc. and evaluate which ones work and why.

 

Thank you. This is helpful!

 

 

I don't think that grammar should be studied a specific number of times. I think that it should be an ongoing process. I think that grammar should be constantly reviewed by being put into practice. There is a lot more to grammar than the parts of speech, parts of a sentence, or even diagramming. Being fluent in the tools of grammar means that you can analyze different wording choices and have an intelligent conversation regarding which one is better and why.

 

Yes, I can see how this would be helpful. Just recently I found the need to teach her what an adjective is so that I could more easily explain what I wanted her to change in her writing. I guess maybe because I have no further experience with this I can't foresee needing to do this very often, though. Right now we just rely on what sounds right.

 

I guess my biggest hurdle in believing in the huge importance of grammar that most people on this board seem to believe in is that I've gotten by just fine with the basic overview of grammar that I got in the 5th and 7th grades. (I did not go to college at all, though, so maybe that is the difference? I don't think I would have done too badly in English classes, though, had I gone....)

 

I looked briefly at your daughter's writing sample. I like it. However, two things jumped out at me. (1) She dictated the story and you write it. So, you put in all the punctuation and spelled all the words. If she were to do all the handwriting by herself, there would probably be some grammar mistakes. Even though kids speak in complete and complex sentences, young writers often don't punctuate their writing in complete sentences when doing the handwriting. (2) It is a narrative. In general, it is easier for kids to write stories than more formal academic pieces. Of course, an 8 year old doesn't need to do more academic writing.

 

Yes, the dictating to me is a Bravewriter thing. Her handwriting has been slower to develop than her intellect and so I haven't transitioned her yet to writing everything on her own. My goal is to get her there by next year.

 

I honestly do think that if she had written it in her own hand that it would be grammatically correct. When I dictate sentences to her she rarely gets anything wrong and when I see stories she's written in her free time I haven't noticed grammatical errors. I think they may be simpler sentence structures, but The Writer's Jungle told me to expect that when they are first starting to write on their own.

 

As far as it being a narrative and easier to write, yes, of course it is. But, like you said, an 8 year old does not need to do more academic writing yet.

 

See, I believe that both things you mentioned will improve over time with or without grammar instruction. Again, I'm just not seeing the need for constantly going over it.

 

It does seem, though, that MCT may be a good fit for us, even with the grammar! (Or maybe we could skip some of it some years???)

 

Here is one way that I mesh BraveWriter and MCT. I use The Arrow and DD writes the passages from dictation. We also pick a sentence from the passage and do an MCT four level analysis from it. We discuss how the grammar supports the ideas that the writing is trying to communicate. Then, for good measure, I have DD make an imitation sentence a la Killgallon.

 

Would you mind explaining the bolded sentence further? Maybe some examples? I'm really curious!

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She writes very well. It is a small thing, but she also misuses the objective pronoun "me" instead of using the objective pronoun "I" in this writing sample. This is an easy enough fix (if one knows the difference) and I would not change her easy writing style, as it is quite nice.

 

Yep, I noticed that, too, but decided to leave it alone for the time being and discuss it later (through copywork?) when it's not connected to her personal work.

 

But MCT is not going to undo anything that is already good (it inspires good writing) but it would open up an understanding of the grammatical underpinnings of the language.

 

Now, that is exactly what I needed to know. I have read of children's writing styles being shut down because they are trying to work within a formulaic approach that their curriculum teaches. I don't want her writing to turn into the kind of stuff I see on the walls of the local public school - pages filled with a bunch of 4-5 word, boring sentences. I love working with her in her own unique writing style right now. I want to continue to develop that and keep her love of writing while slowly introducing more academic forms once she reaches middle school age.

 

MCT goes way beyond "grammar," however. It gets kids to think about the sounds words can make and how those sounds (when strung together) can effect the impact of the writing on readers.

 

It is really good stuff!

 

Bill

 

That sounds WONDERFUL. You're convincing me to order it!

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I can't be the only one with little kids who reads threads like this and dreams of using MCT with her kids in the future... :lol:

 

(I'm such a geek...)

 

 

I've been doing that with various curricula for years! I'm FINALLY getting to the point where I can start using them! Welcome to the geek club!

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So, just to be sure, you guys are saying that MCT does not repeat the same stuff over and over again each year (like FLL)? It sure seems like it does from the samples! It just seems to start with nearly the whole kit-n-kaboodle instead of slowly adding things.

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I guess my biggest hurdle in believing in the huge importance of grammar that most people on this board seem to believe in is that I've gotten by just fine with the basic overview of grammar that I got in the 5th and 7th grades. (I did not go to college at all, though, so maybe that is the difference? I don't think I would have done too badly in English classes, though, had I gone....)

 

Another user of BW and MCT chiming in... After reading the whole thread, I actually think your biggest hurdle is seeing grammar as a chore instead of as a tool used to artistic effect in writing. What you seem to be dreading is year after year of dull, workbook style grammar instruction and mindless, robotic application that chokes every bit of artistic expression out of a previously uninhibited writer. That's the opposite of what MCTLA is. Think of it more as year after year of acquiring new tools or fresh perspective. Your child will be experimenting with and refining the use of this extremely important tool. You could argue that the ability to use grammar to artistic effect may be the paramount difference between an ordinary writer and an extraordinary one.

 

Does that help? :tongue_smilie:

 

See, I believe that both things you mentioned will improve over time with or without grammar instruction. Again, I'm just not seeing the need for constantly going over it.

 

It does seem, though, that MCT may be a good fit for us, even with the grammar! (Or maybe we could skip some of it some years???)

 

Again, you need to reframe yearly instruction as years of refining grammar as an artistic tool. You could not necessarily use this argument with any other program, but with MCTLA, your child will be receiving increasingly complex artistic instruction from a master teacher.

 

So, just to be sure, you guys are saying that MCT does not repeat the same stuff over and over again each year (like FLL)? It sure seems like it does from the samples! It just seems to start with nearly the whole kit-n-kaboodle instead of slowly adding things.

 

See above. :lol:

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Being fluent in the tools of grammar means that you can analyze different wording choices and have an intelligent conversation regarding which one is better and why.

 

Yes, I can see how this would be helpful. Just recently I found the need to teach her what an adjective is so that I could more easily explain what I wanted her to change in her writing. I guess maybe because I have no further experience with this I can't foresee needing to do this very often, though. Right now we just rely on what sounds right.

 

In general, good writers rely on what sounds right. That means they have fully internalized the grammar. However, what if you disagree about a phrase? What if you know that something sounds wrong but don't know why? Understanding grammar can help in these situations. If you know how the pieces fit together and have a vocabulary to discuss them, it is easier to see and discuss alternatives.

 

You needed her to know what an adjective is so that you could discuss revising her writing. Similarly, later on you will want her to know adverbs, appositives, dependent clauses, introductory phrases, dangling modifiers, passive voice, etc. so that you can discuss them.

 

I guess my biggest hurdle in believing in the huge importance of grammar that most people on this board seem to believe in is that I've gotten by just fine with the basic overview of grammar that I got in the 5th and 7th grades. (I did not go to college at all, though, so maybe that is the difference? I don't think I would have done too badly in English classes, though, had I gone....)

 

 

Most people who are in an environment where everyone speaks with correct grammar *don't need* formal grammar. Some fabulous writers have never learned any formal grammar. However, I think that learning grammar is a useful tool to help immature or mediocre writers grow and improve.

 

I honestly do think that if she had written it in her own hand that it would be grammatically correct. When I dictate sentences to her she rarely gets anything wrong and when I see stories she's written in her free time I haven't noticed grammatical errors. I think they may be simpler sentence structures, but The Writer's Jungle told me to expect that when they are first starting to write on their own.

 

 

I overgeneralized in my comment. When writing from dictation, the young writer can focus all her attention on the conventions of writing (spelling, punctuation, penmanship, etc.). However with original writing, some brain power shifts to generating the ideas, and something usually slips -- either the complexity of the language, or the written conventions. It's totally normal.

 

See, I believe that both things you mentioned will improve over time with or without grammar instruction. Again, I'm just not seeing the need for constantly going over it.

 

I agree. Your daughter's writing will probably improve, even if you don't do formal grammar instruction. However, understanding grammar can make improving writing easier and faster because it gives you a common vocabulary for explaining writing choices.

 

I started teaching my DD grammar when I realized that she couldn't punctuate the complex sentences that she wrote, and she didn't understand why I suggested commas and periods in certain places. Now, I can say she needs a comma because she's joining two independent clauses with a co-ordinating conjunction and she totally understands. Or I can suggest rewriting a sentence with the direct object as the subject to shift the focus of the sentence. Or I can suggest that she joins ideas from separate sentences into a single sentence and she knows a variety of ways to do it.

 

Some can do all of these things with a good ear and no formal grammar, but I couldn't.

 

We discuss how the grammar supports the ideas that the writing is trying to communicate.

 

Would you mind explaining the bolded sentence further? Maybe some examples? I'm really curious!

 

Off the top of my head, here are two points from MCT Island Level:

- Word order matters. Words in the middle of a sentence are less powerful than words at the end.

 

- Use strong nouns and verbs. A long string of adjectives or adverbs detracts from the main meaning.

 

You can teach these things without teaching formal grammar, but I find it easier to teach them hand-in-hand with grammar.

Edited by Kuovonne
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After reading the whole thread, I actually think your biggest hurdle is seeing grammar as a chore instead of as a tool used to artistic effect in writing. What you seem to be dreading is year after year of dull, workbook style grammar instruction and mindless, robotic application that chokes every bit of artistic expression out of a previously uninhibited writer. That's the opposite of what MCTLA is. Think of it more as year after year of acquiring new tools or fresh perspective. Your child will be experimenting with and refining the use of this extremely important tool. You could argue that the ability to use grammar to artistic effect may be the paramount difference between an ordinary writer and an extraordinary one.

 

Does that help? :tongue_smilie:

 

 

Yes, I think you've understood me perfectly. And you're use of the word "artistic" has, I think, officially convinced me to push the buy button. :001_smile:

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I agree. Your daughter's writing will probably improve, even if you don't do formal grammar instruction. However, understanding grammar can make improving writing easier and faster because it gives you a common vocabulary for explaining writing choices.

 

Thank you, Kuovonne. Your tone in this post has helped me to "hear" you. It seems like the "grammar people" always imply in their posts regarding this topic that you just "do it because it's good for you" and I always need a "why" when deciding whether to do something or not. I actually really enjoyed diagramming sentences in jr. high, but I also never saw the point. Honestly, I didn't see the point of any part of school. That's why I never went on to college. I was so glad to be done with having to learn what someone else wanted me to learn and on to learning what I actually enjoyed learning!

 

I am pretty much convinced now that MCT is truly different than the run-of-the-mill grammar instruction that I've seen no use for. I am going to give the Island level a try and see where we go from there.

 

Off the top of my head, here are two points from MCT Island Level:

- Word order matters. Words in the middle of a sentence are less powerful than words at the end.

 

- Use strong nouns and verbs. A long string of adjectives or adverbs detracts from the main meaning.

 

You can teach these things without teaching formal grammar, but I find it easier to teach them hand-in-hand with grammar.

 

 

Now, this I love. I can see the purpose in learning those two points!

 

Thank you!

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My dd's writing is clear. She knows when something does not sound right and changes it. We don't have problems with usage, plural/singular verbs, wrong pronouns (though I'll admit I don't remember what the "object case" means), or sentence fragments. And, if we do run across something like that, I read it out loud to her and she notices and corrects it "by ear."

 

I'm truly not trying to be difficult. I just don't see the need....

 

I know what you mean when you say "by the ear", because that is the way I approach grammar and writing too. I have read a lot as a child and have developed an intuitive sense of grammar. By the way, I did have grammar instruction in school which was very parts to whole. None of that has really stuck with me. I do not think of form when I write as well.

 

However, I do not think this is good enough for my son. There are many times when I feel restricted in my ability to express complex ideas or write complex sentences in a way that would make sense to the reader. I would like my son to be able to analyse his own writing, know what is wrong and WHY it is wrong.

 

I like SWB's take on this topic. Here is the link to the sample chapter of WWE, where on page 10, she talks about how Grammar instruction helps to clarify intent in writing. I both agree with this as well as very much relate to this due to my own struggle with writing clearly.

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She writes very well. It is a small thing, but she also misuses the objective pronoun "me" instead of using the objective pronoun "I" in this writing sample. This is an easy enough fix (if one knows the difference) and I would not change her easy writing style, as it is quite nice.

 

Bill

 

"I" is not an objective case pronoun. It's a nominative case pronoun.

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So, just to be sure, you guys are saying that MCT does not repeat the same stuff over and over again each year (like FLL)? It sure seems like it does from the samples! It just seems to start with nearly the whole kit-n-kaboodle instead of slowly adding things.

 

I can't read all the responses, my brain is not able to do that this morning, so if this has been answered feel free to ignore.

 

Yes, he does repeat, but not in the way you think he does. ;) The repetition factor ala FLL is not there. Something is mentioned, clarified, then you move on to the next refinement. You can go through the "repeated" parts in passing. Really. It's not like you are doing exercises like circle the noun, what is the predicate blah blah blah.

 

He doesn't cover punctuation until the kid can understand how the grammar dictates the function. He doesn't really go into complex phrases until the more basic kinds are fully understood. But really, as it is program based on thinking and not on worksheets, you can spend as much or as little time on whatever part you want.

 

FYI I am in level 4, having started at Island, and we are still learning things. It is definitely not all review or repetition.

 

 

And to answer your original question, yes, BW and MCT compliment each other, IMHO. They deal with different types of writing and and there is not much overlap, if any. MCT is really big on thinking, considering and making sure your writing is concise, beautiful and powerful. BW is about brainstorming, creating and output. I think that BW is a good place to get juices flowing, and MCT is where you make that output the best that it can be. Also, BW focuses on creative writing, MCT on academic writing (at least eventually). I don't think either is formulaic or will stifle writing voice.

Edited by radiobrain
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I can't read all the responses, my brain is not able to do that this morning, so if this has been answered feel free to ignore.

 

Yes, he does repeat, but not in the way you think he does. ;) The repetition factor ala FLL is not there. Something is mentioned, clarified, then you move on to the next refinement. You can go through the "repeated" parts in passing. Really. It's not like you are doing exercises like circle the noun, what is the predicate blah blah blah.

 

He doesn't cover punctuation until the kid can understand how the grammar dictates the function. He doesn't really go into complex phrases until the more basic kinds are fully understood. But really, as it is program based on thinking and not on worksheets, you can spend as much or as little time on whatever part you want.

 

FYI I am in level 4, having started at Island, and we are still learning things. It is definitely not all review or repetition.

 

 

And to answer your original question, yes, BW and MCT compliment each other, IMHO. They deal with different types of writing and and there is not much overlap, if any. MCT is really big on thinking, considering and making sure your writing is concise, beautiful and powerful. BW is about brainstorming, creating and output. I think that BW is a good place to get juices flowing, and MCT is where you make that output the best that it can be. Also, BW focuses on creative writing, MCT on academic writing (at least eventually). I don't think either is formulaic or will stifle writing voice.

 

Thank you. This post was very helpful!

 

So, would you say it's worth it to do the grammar through all of the 3 first levels. I was thinking that, if we like MCT Island, we would maybe skip the grammar in Town and then pick it up again in Voyage. The samples in the grammar books seem so repetitive that it doesn't seem worth it to buy books that only have a little bit of new info - especially with how expensive the program is.....

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Thank you. This post was very helpful!

 

So, would you say it's worth it to do the grammar through all of the 3 first levels. I was thinking that, if we like MCT Island, we would maybe skip the grammar in Town and then pick it up again in Voyage. The samples in the grammar books seem so repetitive that it doesn't seem worth it to buy books that only have a little bit of new info - especially with how expensive the program is.....

 

Well, I think it is worth it, but in the end you need to make your own decision. :D

 

 

I am sure you can comfortably skip a year of the grammar if you want, but it is relatively painless. I have never regretted doing it each year, and I am not a hard core grammar geek (part of me is always like "Why does this matter?"), but I am a MCT devotee and trust what he is doing. If you are getting everything else in the "basic homeschool package" I don't think the cost of leaving out the grammar portion makes much difference, but I could be wrong. Not in the mood for math today.;)

 

Personally, I think that Town level is so awesome that I can't imagine skipping any of it. I can see where you would think that it is just repetition, but remember that MCT is a traditional school text that has been adapted to HS use -- it is supposed to be "taught" a year after the last one with a summer in between... there needs to be review and/or info for those who didn't start with Island.

 

You should search MCT threads and a lot of us probably already answered these questions, along with arguments against, for, about... we were all a very funny bunch a few years ago, LOL.

 

PS: Yes. MCT is expensive, but you are getting a whole LA program...grammar, poetics, vocab, writing and daily grammar practice in one. I don't think it is any more expensive than other programs that might have only one component (like IEW or something). It is all relative.

Edited by radiobrain
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Thank you. This post was very helpful!

 

So, would you say it's worth it to do the grammar through all of the 3 first levels. I was thinking that, if we like MCT Island, we would maybe skip the grammar in Town and then pick it up again in Voyage. The samples in the grammar books seem so repetitive that it doesn't seem worth it to buy books that only have a little bit of new info - especially with how expensive the program is.....

 

No, you would not want to skip the grammar in "town" because it goes into quite a bit more depth than "island". If I had to pick one of the 3 levels of MCT's grammar to do, it would be "town". "Island" mostly focuses on the 8 parts of speech with only a very brief introduction to phrases and clauses. I skipped the "island" level with my DD because she already had a good grasp on the parts of speech from having done FLL 1/2. She had no problem jumping right in at the "town" level.

 

We haven't yet started the "voyage" level because my DD isn't quite up to doing the writing in Essay Voyage just yet. I'm actually probably going to skip getting Grammar Voyage because it doesn't look like it adds that much new material to what was in Grammar Town. However, that doesn't mean that you can skip right from Grammar Island to Grammar Voyage because the latter assumes that the child is familiar with the concepts in Grammar Town.

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My dd's writing is clear. She knows when something does not sound right and changes it. We don't have problems with usage, plural/singular verbs, wrong pronouns (though I'll admit I don't remember what the "object case" means), or sentence fragments. And, if we do run across something like that, I read it out loud to her and she notices and corrects it "by ear."

 

This is a great beginning for her. I would encourage her to grow in her abilities with writing - how? - with grammar study. :D

 

Oh my word. When I started going through R&S 5 with my oldest child, I was blown away by what I had never learned. At first I couldn't see the point of learning that stuff, but as we've gone along with building grammar AND writing skills, I can see the point. I think grammar knowledge can even improve reading comprehension ability! And improve listening skills. You can more closely dissect (through mental diagraming if you wish - it has become a habit for me) what people have written or what they are saying, if you understand more complex grammar. And of course like most others have said, it greatly improves writing skills. There will probably come a point when your daughter cannot just rely on her "ear" for writing anymore, but then grammar could be there to serve her and take her even further. Sure, many of us have "gotten along just fine in life without grammar knowledge thankyouverymuch," but I have to tell you, that as one who used to think that, I now see how much intellectual stimulation and processing I have missed out on.

 

I actually think your biggest hurdle is seeing grammar as a chore instead of as a tool used to artistic effect in writing.

 

I love how you phrased this! And :iagree:

 

If you know how the pieces fit together and have a vocabulary to discuss them, it is easier to see and discuss alternatives.

 

:iagree:

 

It seems like the "grammar people" always imply in their posts regarding this topic that you just "do it because it's good for you" and I always need a "why" when deciding whether to do something or not.

 

Keep on asking "why." If you know why, and if you agree with why, then you'll be able to teach it wholeheartedly and get into the fun of it. Grammar really is fun. :D A new friend of mine called me the other day to ask me some grammar questions - she is another budding grammar geek like me! :D (notice I said "geek" and not "expert" - I am very much in the learning stages)

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