CMs surprising recommendations for writing

[Caribbean Queen]

Charlotte Mason said this about writing:

 

In fact, lessons on 'composition' should follow the model of that famous essay on "Snakes in Ireland"––"There are none."

For children under nine, the question of composition resolves itself into that of narration, varied by some such simple exercise as to write a part and narrate a part, or write the whole account of a walk they have taken, a lesson they have studied, or of some simple matter that they know.

Before they are ten, children who have been in the habit of using books will write good, vigorous English with ease and freedom; that is, if they have not been hampered by instructions. It is well for them not even to learn rules for the placing of full stops and capitals until they notice how these things occur in their books.

 

Our business is to provide children with material in their lessons, and leave the handling of such material to themselves. If we would believe it, composition is as natural as jumping and running to children who have been allowed due use of books. They should narrate in the first place, and they will compose, later readily enough; but they should not be taught 'composition.

 

 

Here is a lesson Charlotte Mason calls sterilising, injurious and a public danger:

 

"Step I.

"1. What are you?

"2. How did you get your name?

"3. Who uses you?

"4. What were you once?

"5. What were like then?

"6. Where were you obtained or found?

"7. Of what stuff or materials are you made?

"8. From what sources do you come?

"9. What are your parts?

"10. Are you made, grown, or fitted together?

* * * * * *

"Step II.

"I am an umbrella, and am used by many people, young and old.

"I get my name from a word which means a shade.

"The stick came perhaps from America, and is

quite smooth, even, and polished, so that the metal ring may slide easily up and down the stick.

"My parts are a frame and a cover. My frame consists of a stick about a yard long, wires, and a sliding metal band. At the lower end of the stick is a steel ferrule or ring. This keeps the end from wearing away when I am used in walking.

"Step III.

"Now use it, is, and was, instead of I, have, my, and am.

* * * * * *

"Exercise.

"Now write your own description of it."

 

CM hated that lesson. Doesn't that remind you of Writing Strands? (I have only seen sample so maybe I am wrong.)

 

My oldest child is 8 and has not done any writing program. He recently wrote a page and a half narration which was very good, but he had to spread the work over many days. Do you think I should continue doing things the CM way or use a writing program?

I own WWE but don't use it because of the SWB style narration (questions and summary). I am sure my son could answer the questions and would HATE summarizing and be bad at it. I tried to figure out what writing program would mesh with the CM method and it looks like none would. Time to bite the bullet and do a writing program like everybody else, or should I believe in CM?

Edited November 20, 2011 by Caribbean Queen

[Faithr]

I personally do not think you need to do any writing other than copy work at age 8. CM didn't have them write out narrations until age 10. I think kids who do copy work and have lots of living literature read to them turn out to be fine writers when they are older. If your son wants to write, of course, then let him. My kids naturally like to write out skits, poems, notes to each other, stories. My current 12 likes to write reviews of shows and games on the computer.

 

There's no rush! So I say stick to CM; she knew what she was talking about!

 

Btw, summarizing is a handy dandy skill to have, but there's no reason your son has to practice it now.

[Bluegoat]

My kids are not that old, so I'm speaking theoretically, but I'd stick with CM and oral narration. But it should be more and more complex and complete, with the structure of a piece of writing, as you go on.

[KathyBC]

I don't think that is the whole sum of Charlotte Mason's thoughts on writing. The quote fits well with a natural writer; less so if you have a child who does not naturally notice grammar and punctuation, who needs more explicit instruction.

 

I find Writing With Ease to fit in well with a Charlotte Mason model (copywork, narration, dictation spread over several days). The questions gradually build comprehension and narration skills, IMO. We use the program at the level and pace that suits us. That said, no one program fits every situation. I've yet to use one program exclusively for even a single year. We like to dabble with many ways to approach writing.

 

If the recommendations you quote ring true with you, you may like The Writer's Jungle by Julie Bogart. Or you may just want to keep on with your own instruction, as it sounds like it is satisfying both you and your son.

[Walking-Iris]

I've been using Writing Strands at a bit of an accelerated pace this year and I don't think it resembles your example at all. The main idea of Writing Strands is that kids learn how to write by writing. It's pretty non-intrusive as far as the instruction goes.

 

I personally believe that CM will not work for every child (or any other program/method for that matter). I have a ds who actually likes creative writing and always wants to do his grammar first. We don't do copywork because the few times I've asked him to copy out something verbatim he looked like he was being tortured. I actually felt a little tortured too. It just doesn't work for us. We much rather make it up ourselves.

 

Being a natural writer, my son also wants instruction. Like an artist wants to hone their technical skills in their medium and technique before being set free to play with it.

 

My main advice is to find what works for your child and try not to stick with the "rules" of one type of method.

[Jay3fer]

I think the point is that CM believes that children are ALREADY doing composition when they narrate. By teaching our children to narrate effectively and efficiently (ie summarizing, not saying the story over line by line), we are already giving them writing skills. I generally avoid most writing-type things and feel that the incessant call for "creativity" in writing is a bit silly in the early grades.

 

However, as the pp says, it's not the sum total of CM's views, and I believe she does expect older kids to be writing quite articulately later on, stemming from their early start in narration. Some kids will never be "creative" as such - that's okay, as long as they can express themselves articulately, in essay or some other form.

[Bluegoat]

I think the point is that CM believes that children are ALREADY doing composition when they narrate. By teaching our children to narrate effectively and efficiently (ie summarizing, not saying the story over line by line), we are already giving them writing skills. I generally avoid most writing-type things and feel that the incessant call for "creativity" in writing is a bit silly in the early grades.

 

However, as the pp says, it's not the sum total of CM's views, and I believe she does expect older kids to be writing quite articulately later on, stemming from their early start in narration. Some kids will never be "creative" as such - that's okay, as long as they can express themselves articulately, in essay or some other form.

 

I think too that it's important to consider her students would be studying some foreign languages as time went on, and that means they would be getting some more formal grammatical content that way, especially once they started Latin.

 

But an 8 year old would really only be just transitioning to those kinds of more formal studies under normal circumstances, they only would be in their second or third year of school. Until then I think CMs idea is to give them a deep experience of language (or numbers or nature) so they have something really solid to build on when they begin to look at those things abstractly.

[hmschooling]

Charlotte Mason said this about writing:

 

In fact, lessons on 'composition' should follow the model of that famous essay on "Snakes in Ireland"––"There are none."

For children under nine, the question of composition resolves itself into that of narration, varied by some such simple exercise as to write a part and narrate a part, or write the whole account of a walk they have taken, a lesson they have studied, or of some simple matter that they know.

Before they are ten, children who have been in the habit of using books will write good, vigorous English with ease and freedom; that is, if they have not been hampered by instructions. It is well for them not even to learn rules for the placing of full stops and capitals until they notice how these things occur in their books.

 

Our business is to provide children with material in their lessons, and leave the handling of such material to themselves. If we would believe it, composition is as natural as jumping and running to children who have been allowed due use of books. They should narrate in the first place, and they will compose, later readily enough; but they should not be taught 'composition.

 

 

Here is a lesson Charlotte Mason calls sterilising, injurious and a public danger:

 

"Step I.

"1. What are you?

"2. How did you get your name?

"3. Who uses you?

"4. What were you once?

"5. What were like then?

"6. Where were you obtained or found?

"7. Of what stuff or materials are you made?

"8. From what sources do you come?

"9. What are your parts?

"10. Are you made, grown, or fitted together?

* * * * * *

"Step II.

"I am an umbrella, and am used by many people, young and old.

"I get my name from a word which means a shade.

"The stick came perhaps from America, and is

vol 1 pg 246

quite smooth, even, and polished, so that the metal ring may slide easily up and down the stick.

"My parts are a frame and a cover. My frame consists of a stick about a yard long, wires, and a sliding metal band. At the lower end of the stick is a steel ferrule or ring. This keeps the end from wearing away when I am used in walking.

"Step III.

"Now use it, is, and was, instead of I, have, my, and am.

* * * * * *

"Exercise.

"Now write your own description of it."

 

CM hated that lesson. Doesn't that remind you of Writing Strands? (I have only seen sample so maybe I am wrong.)

 

My oldest child is 8 and has not done any writing program. He recently wrote a page and a half narration which was very good, but he had to spread the work over many days. Do you think I should continue doing things the CM way or use a writing program.

I own WWE but don't use it because of the SWB style narration (questions and summery). I am sure my son could answer the questions and would HATE summerizing and be bad at it. I tried to figure out what writing program would mesh with the CM method and it looks like none would. Time to bite the bullet and do a writing program like everybody else or should I believe in CM?

 

I suggest liking at heart of dakota's writing progression (oral narration to written to creative writing using poetry, to a formal program that is very CM in that it has children model after great authors, and so on. You'll find the progression natural and CM friendly, and you'll see tw writing programs she schedules which will fit a CM education nicely. My daughter is 10 and never ha formal writing instruction and very little grammar. She's in 5th grade and barely I to R&S 4. Last year she spent one 9 weeks in public school for 4th gr. public schools start writing very early, yet every paper the teacher would tell me my dd Out performed all her peers and wrote the best paper she'd seen. This teacher actually decided to homeschool after we spoke at a parent teacher conference...she was so impressed with my DD's writing skils an such we spent most of the time discussing my homeschool methods and curriculum so she could do the same! Early writing just isn't as effective as one would hope. CM knows what works. She didn't just homeschool a few kids of her own bit classrooms full of many, many kids. She had all sorta and she just k ows how they work and learn! It's a very natural method and as ie witnessed, very effective. Others prefer that formulaic approach like the example you have and it makes very structured writers that can make the grade. But I don't think that's our goal.

[hmschooling]

I'm replying from my phone so I'm surenim not as ignorant as my auto correct makes me seem.

[Caribbean Queen]

I find Writing With Ease to fit in well with a Charlotte Mason model (copywork, narration, dictation spread over several days). The questions gradually build comprehension and narration skills, IMO.

 

If the recommendations you quote ring true with you, you may like The Writer's Jungle by Julie Bogart. Or you may just want to keep on with your own instruction, as it sounds like it is satisfying both you and your son.

 

I think of CM narrations as different from SWB's version of narrations.

SWB does comprehension questions orally.

"What did the children do on the grass?"

"Why did they run to the hill?"

"What did they then?"

"Why did Jane want the red shoe?"

- and 5 more questions like that

Then SWB wants a summary in 2-3 sentences.

 

I think CM would just ask children to retell the reading. There would not be all those leading questions. There would be no summary required.

 

I definately see the value of CM narrations.

But no writing instruction yet? Don't use a writing program? Really?

I don't want to wait a few years and then realise I was wasting time and CM's way didn't work. Then again, her advice has worked very well for us so far.

[hmschooling]

I think of CM narrations as different from SWB's version of narrations.

SWB does comprehension questions orally.

"What did the children do on the grass?"

"Why did they run to the hill?"

"What did they then?"

"Why did Jane want the red shoe?"

- and 5 more questions like that

Then SWB wants a summary in 2-3 sentences.

 

I think CM would just ask children to retell the reading. There would not be all those leading questions. There would be no summary required.

 

I definately see the value of CM narrations.

But no writing instruction yet? Don't use a writing program? Really?

I don't want to wait a few years and then realise I was wasting time and CM's way didn't work. Then again, her advice has worked very well for us so far.

We will get to the summaries in our HOD/CM education AFTER mastering oral and written CM style narrations...retelling, borrowing the authors style and verbiage, details, etc. then summaries will come in where they need to narrow down to the key points and use succinctness without style persay. His is working SO, SO well for us. Now in 5th grade I am able to see the purpose and benefit of this method start taking shape. So you for forsake those summaries and traditional classical Ed skills, you just do them at a more appropriate time. You can't point out key details and them be able to fully and interestingly tell back details from that outline if you are without the CM narration skills!

[Caribbean Queen]

I suggest liking at heart of dakota's writing progression

...Last year she spent one 9 weeks in public school for 4th gr. public schools start writing very early, yet every paper the teacher would tell me my dd Out performed all her peers and wrote the best paper she'd seen. This teacher actually decided to homeschool after we spoke at a parent teacher conference...she was so impressed with my DD's writing skils an such we spent most of the time discussing my homeschool methods and curriculum so she could do the same!

 

...Others prefer that formulaic approach like the example you have and it makes very structured writers that can make the grade. But I don't think that's our goal.

 

I like to tweak and heard tweaking destroys the beauty of HOD. I will give it another look, though.

 

Wow! What a compliment on your daughter's writing!

 

On your last point - Right.

[Caribbean Queen]

Faithr, did you forgo writing instruction for a while with your kids?

[hmschooling]

I like to tweak and heard tweaking destroys the beauty of HOD. I will give it another look, though.

 

Wow! What a compliment on your daughter's writing!

 

On your last point - Right.

 

Depends on what you tweak. The beauty of HOD is you can customize and there's room for tweaking...the Beauty-est thing (I'm making up words now...hehe) is that after a couple levels, you realize you don't need to anymore! :) I add Latin and use a different edition of Singapore than planned. I am using right start a in place of earlybird math. that's now all I tweak and I was a TWEAKER. After seeing the fruit, the amazing results that are now so obvious and so much a direct result of the combination of lessons and skill progression of HOD, I just can't help but trust it all now. It's just fabulous.

[KathyBC]

But no writing instruction yet? Don't use a writing program? Really?

I don't want to wait a few years and then realise I was wasting time and CM's way didn't work. Then again, her advice has worked very well for us so far.

 

You *are* using a writing method... you just don't have a script in front of you. So working as you are, it sounds as if you can see that your child's skills are progressing. This is not a lot different than those of us who need a little more hand-holding: we are trusting and hopefully seeing that the programs we are using are advancing our children's skills, too.

[Whereneverever]

You *are* using a writing method... you just don't have a script in front of you. So working as you are, it sounds as if you can see that your child's skills are progressing. This is not a lot different than those of us who need a little more hand-holding: we are trusting and hopefully seeing that the programs we are using are advancing our children's skills, too.

:iagree:You don't have to buy a book or package to make a writing method. If it's working for you, don't feel like you need someone else guiding you.

[LindaOz]

I have found/am finding the CM method of writing to be very effective. I also believe that she did teach elements of usage like punctuation and early grammar but all within the context of the copywork the young child would be doing. It wasn't ignored, but it wasn't given specific "I am teaching you the comma now, please insert them into the following sentences" style lessons.:)

 

I have my third grader write two narrations a week - plus copywork 4x a week, and dictation x2. The other day I sent her away to do a written narration on a chapter of The Wind in the Willows which we are reading together and she came back with a 5 page masterpiece complete with dialogue and all. I'm convinced this works. For me, summaries are something that can wait until she gets older.

 

My 9th and 10th graders are both skilled and fluent writers having spent much time, for the most part, doing written narrations. They are now able to adapt to other forms of writing more easily having already mastered fluency in writing through written narration. I love it!!!

[Faithr]

Answering CaribbeanQueen,

 

Yes, I did. First of all my kids didn't even read until age 9, so having them write at age 8 didn't make sense, UNLESS they were dictating a story to me or an oral narration they wanted me to write down. I varied a lot with each child. I've tried lots of different things. I really like WWE (we did it last year) but my kids were older than the recommended age.

 

I really believe less is more when it comes to writing instruction. And I really don't think you need to start as early as institutional school or most curricula think. As children mature writing comes much more easily to them. I have 3 kids so far who have turned out to be good writers with this very relaxed hit or miss method. I have one child who worried me because he didn't seem to be natural and I've tried more programs with him. He is now an okay writer. The programs were painful and didn't really seem to work. They actually made his writing sound more canned and self-conscious and made him dread writing even more. He is now writing essays regularly for his high school Shakespeare class. He's okay, but I can see improvement.

 

Frankly, I think the best thing you can do for children's writing is to read wonderful literature aloud a lot and encourage them to read good books. And do copy work. And then let them grow up and start writing for some meaningful reason (for a class they are interested in, because they want to express themselves, essay contest, writing club, because they imagine going to college one day and realize they need to write, science fair, 4H project, NaNoWriMo, fanfiction, reviews for Amazon, etc). For my high schoolers, I have so far, required one year of composition. They've chosen to do this different ways. My daughter did Kolbe's comp in 9th grade. My oldest son did Learn to Write the Novel Way with WriteGuide in the very last semester of his 12th grade year. I think my current 11th grader might take a Learn to Write for College class at the community college next year. My current 12 yo writes all the time on his own and he's good. So, I don't even worry about him.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary, because every kids is different.

 

Blessings,

 

Faith

[Caribbean Queen]

It is reassuring to read that I can think I am working on composition skills.

 

Nice to read about others who didn't use typical writing programs and had success.

[sagira]

It is reassuring to read that I can think I am working on composition skills.

 

Nice to read about others who didn't use typical writing programs and had success.

 

It is, isn't it? Every few weeks I get the itch to add another writing program, but WWE is working so well. I do allow him to elaborate if he wants, a la CM. I like to ask him what he knows. His writing is coming along nicely. I try not to stress about his reluctance to write or the amount of writing third graders in public school do.