Would you use MM with very math able 4 year old?

[Chocolatemuffins]

Firstly, DS1 (6) is fairly weak at math so I don't have much experience with a math-gifted kid. I may be wrong about DS2's (4.5) ability, but he does seem very good at math to me. He plays around with numbers and sums for fun and can do simple sums like 10 + 10 and 6 + 2 without any teaching. He is always coming out with things to add and sums during our mealtime etc. He also plays on DS1's math game on the computer and is probably as good as DS1 (better on the geometry bits).

 

We have been working through MUS primer (DS1 is doing well with MUS Alpha) but DS2 he finds it very easy. He can do the sums without any of my help while I am cooking lunch and doesn't need my teaching or the instruction video.

 

I also have MM on my computer. (I bought it for DS1 but it went way too fast for him and he just didn't get it). I'm wondering if it would be a good fit for DS2 or should I hold off a year or so? He is starting to write and can read 3 letter words so far. I think MUS will be a bit slow and samey for him.

 

Thanks :)

Edited November 15, 2011 by Chocolatemuffins

[ChrissySC]

I would begin math facts. I would not approach a formal math, but I would start "cramming" those facts in that precious little head. Hold off until K or late-K to begin MM. The page is very full and demanding.

 

You can teach the foundation of addition or subtraction with blocks, but then it is time to memorize.

 

You could even teach the mulitplication tables now. They will not know why, but that can come later.

 

I am teaching addition and the common sight words to my 4yo. Anything that can be seen as a base for formal lessons, I am cramming inside her head to make my life and hers for that matter much easier!

[ChrissySC]

Yikes, I couldn't disagree more. I think pushing memorization at that age is completely unnecessary, might not work, and might make math a chore (not to mention boring). I first bought some sort of odd product for learning math facts in this way for young kids and my son just didn't respond to it. I then used SM, base ten blocks, and math games to learn about concepts and he took off.

 

If it is working for you I won't argue that, but I think it's a mistake to tell people that making a 4 year old just memorize facts is generally the way to go.

 

To the OP, have you taken a look at EarlyBird Math (SM)? Or even MEP? Those are great too for young kids.

 

 

LOL, but keep in mind that they can memorize. You are thinking of understanding the concepts. They do not need conceptual understanding. We teach them things to memorize all the time. Colors, ABC's, numbers, etc. Math facts are no different. They do not have any reason or rythme but they are there nonetheless for when the understanding starts. Take advantage of this stage of development and continue to cram it in there.

 

You do not not need to make it a formal sit down so that it is tedious and or boring. Instead, go around the house skip counting for multiplication and counting. Start saying 1 plus 1 is two while skipping. The facts will stick through repitition. Just say them like you did the ABC's. It is no different. We tought them letters without any foundation or understanding of what the symbol that they call "a" is for.

 

:lol: You cannot see it from our POV. Look at theirs. Nothing makes sense anyway. They memorize and regurgitate because we are pleased. OK, that sounds very much like getting the dog to salivate, but it really is just as simple.

[Terabith]

Chrissy, I'm 100% with you on memorization in the preschool years - in general. They are sponges and can soak up all kinds of things. We deliberately memorized lots and lots of poetry, shapes (including fairly obscure ones and terminology like equilateral), letter sounds, identification of numerals, animals, location of states and countries, planets of the sun, identification of famous paintings, etc. Just through regular exposure, they memorized a ton, and that knowledge does serve them well.

 

However, there is, in my mind, a distinction between things that make sense to memorize early, and those things that don't. Lots of things will have to be memorized at some point, and you might as well start learning them young, as long as it's painless. However, math is different. Yes, it does need to be memorized, but it is far more important in my mind that you UNDERSTAND it. Math is a conceptual activity, not a simply memorized one. Facility with math facts is necessary, but it comes AFTER understanding what you are doing and why. Now, some exceptions apply. I did do things like counting backwards from 10 to 1 (playing rocket ship), counting by 5's and 10's, reading a few of the Math Start books by Stuart Murphy, counting by odd or even numbers when my daughter did her asthma inhaler, etc. However, even the latter was done after some illustrations of odd and even. When they are doing addition in the earliest years, it is far more important to me that they can explain what they are doing and why than simply getting the correct answer. (The correct answer is important, though.) I want them "making 10's" and grouping by 5, rather than simply memorizing the answer.

 

With a math able 4 year old, I would do Miquon Orange and Right Start A.

[Wheres Toto]

If you son seems like he would enjoy doing some worksheet type activities, give it a shot. My son actually enjoys worksheets and loves the puzzles in MM. I wouldn't expect your 4 year old to be able to do all the writing and he may get a little overwhelmed by everything on the page, but there's nothing wrong with printing a few pages and giving it a try since you already have it. As long as you don't push it on him and he enjoys it, go for it.

[boscopup]

I could see you using MM in YOUR hand to give you ideas of problems to have your son solve, but I think 4.5 is a bit young to be doing the pages of MM, as crammed as they are.

 

Having had a son like that (my oldest), I would suggest just continuing to play with math and let him explore. Then when he's an age to write in a workbook (maybe next year), give him a placement test for whatever program you use (MM is excellent) and start where it places him.

 

Just because your 4 year old is learning things at an accelerated pace, it doesn't mean you need to use curriculum yet. That age 4-5 time was huge for my son to figure out math on his own, and I think using a curriculum would have squashed that discovery (as it kind of has now).

 

You'd be amazed at what a 4 or 5 year old can pick up on their own via discovery.

 

I also disagree with cramming him with useless memory work in math. Math facts will come once the conceptual understanding is there. I've had a very easy time with DS1 and math facts. We haven't had to do flash cards. We have done some 5 minute drills on multiplication, but that's fine. It didn't take much. DS2, who hasn't done addition/subtraction facts in his curriculum yet, is already starting to figure some out and remember them. If the kid is USING the facts with understanding, memory will come after that. Some kids will require a little drill as well, but memorizing without context doesn't help them in math, IMO. That's like learning the standard algorithm and not knowing anything about place value. Sure, you can work the problem, but you don't understand the problem, and if you get the calculations wrong, you probably won't notice what was wrong.

 

I also don't teach the ABC song until they're learning to read letters. ;) So far, all 3 kids have learned the song no problem, and they understand what they're singing.

[Chocolatemuffins]

As we speak "Mummy 2 add 2 add 2 is 6!". Thanks for the suggestions, off to check out a few of them. Do any other programmes have a kindergarten math? How about Saxon or Kumon?

[didadeewiththree]

Another vote for starting Rightstart A, very fun and informal with lots of singing and manipulatives. My daughter wants to do my younger sons math, and I do let her, especially when it is game time. Id make it seem like all fun stuff you are doing and far less sit down, teaching time. Im just now giving my 5 and a half yr old a short, very short worksheet from Rightstart, about 7 problems long, and he begged to do another. I want conceptual understanding first and Im finding that he rattles off facts like 5 plus 1 is 6, not only because of the song we sing (yellow is the sun, six is five and one), but its because of the fact that he can actually envision five and one in his head. We practice on the abacus and he can pull out numbers without counting each individual counter. We play addition bingo and while I thought this would be hard for him, it's not.

 

Make it fun and the facts will come, later. Set him up to be a lifelong math lover by not forcing any work that he doesnt want to do. And his attention span may only last 10 minutes, which will stretch longer later.

 

Ive looked at math mammoth and I would definatly not do those at this age; I wouldnt even do them at my son's age and he is a very mathy guy. Its too abstract at this point.

Edited November 15, 2011 by neenee7

[jennynd]

I didn't start formal math with my mathy DS7 until he was in K. We count, play numbers and reading MATHSTART books.

DD3 who appear to be also might be mathy. Is using Miquon primarily. I don't really follow any teaching manual or workbook. We just play the c-rod. She will flip through the orange book and tell me which page she wanted to do. She said she never want to do any other type math other than c-rod..:glare:

[ByGrace3]

We love MM, but it is a lot of writing for a 4yo. I would use something like Miquon or Right Start A first, and then in a year or so move to MM.

I also disagree with facts. We used Saxon 1 for K and it taught "facts" and tricks for those facts. When we finished, dd knew the facts as long as we drilled them but she had no idea of the concepts. I spent months using MM (doing another year of first grade math) and reprogramming her to get the concepts. Also, if you plan to use an Asian math based program (SM, MM, even MUS some) teaching just the facts could really confuse them bc those programs teach it so differently (grouping to 5 or 10).

 

If you don't want to buy something else, I might start MM but not in full worksheet mode, maybe use the concepts, get out some manipulatives and work it that way.

[Spy Car]

Put me in the 100% against learning math via rote-memorization at this age. I can't think of anything more damaging.

 

Instead approach it as a subject encourages creative problem solving learned though fun, playful and mind-engaging means.

 

Look at Miquon and MEP for two examples of how children can be introduced to mathematics in ways that are both fun and far more effective than relying on rote-memorization.

 

Bill

[Chocolatemuffins]

I've tried a bit of Miquon Orange with him. Some of it seems v hard for his age. There was one page with tables with 1 2 for rows and 0 1 2 for columns. He had to work out each addition sum to do by looking at the table (does that make sense?). I had to really hold his hand. Maybe I would need to skip some sheets?

 

He finds adding etc. with the rods is fine.

[wapiti]

I too think that MM would not be the best choice for a 4y.o. who is ready for more math. Eventually, you could print out the occasional page, such as the ones with number lines. But for now I would stick with something like Miquon or RS. I love MM but the page design is better suited for a bit older.

 

I also see no need to memorize facts by rote at this young age. My kids all did montessori math when they were that age, and none have needed rote memorization to learn math facts. I'd save that for special case scenarios such as older kids with certain LDs.

[Spy Car]

I've tried a bit of Miquon Orange with him. Some of it seems v hard for his age. There was one page with tables with 1 2 for rows and 0 1 2 for columns. He had to work out each addition sum to do by looking at the table (does that make sense?). I had to really hold his hand. Maybe I would need to skip some sheets?

 

He finds adding etc. with the rods is fine.

 

Absolutely skip anything that is too difficult. And feel free to make your own lab-sheets that expand on lessons in the Orange book, or add topics of your own.

 

Did you read "The First Grade Diary?"

 

The questions I kept asking myself as this age where: What does he understand? What do I hope for him to learn next? And what does he need to know before he can learn that "next" topic?

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Bill

[ChrissySC]

And so, I must say what makes memorizing math facts any different than any other item that we have them memorize? Nothing.

 

Just keep in mind, they will handle it without any damaging effects. We teach the ABC's without an context to every child all the time. We teach them to count way before the context and purpose is learned.

 

It is a shame to waste such an absorbitive state. :D LOL Why not stick basic facts and skip counting in there now?

 

Consider too - we teach shape recognition but we don't teach geometry thereoms. I could go on, but ...

[ocelotmom]

On the page on the Math Mammoth site dealing with Kindergarten math, it says:

 

Both the Light Blue first grade and the Addition 1 book start out dealing with addition within the range 0-10, but they also include missing addend problems such as 3 + __ = 7 and word problems. Kindergartners or younger children MAY get confused with the missing addend concept. If that happens, don't worry - just wait and let the child's brain mature. A lot of the lessons are accessible for kindergartners as well.

 

I ran into exactly that problem when trying to do MM with a 4.5 year old who, according to the other listed readiness signs, was ready to start level 1. I also found that the missing addends problems make up a large enough part of the problem sets that I wasn't willing to just skip over those problems.

[ByGrace3]

Just keep in mind, they will handle it without any damaging effects. We teach the ABC's without an context to every child all the time. We teach them to count way before the context and purpose is learned.

 

Except for my dd it was damaging (or at least temporarily frustrating). ;) Going back to teach her 7+5 is really 7+3+2 was more difficult when she was trying to recall 7+5 from her fact memorizing days which if she forgot led her to using fingers to add 5 to 7. Since we chose not to "do" math that way, it has been a challenge to reprogram this, months later we are still working on it.

 

Anyway, it all comes down to your future math plans, and what your expectations are in this area. Having done facts first with dd, I know for certain that I will not be doing that again, we will be using Miquon or RS ;)

[Spy Car]

And so, I must say what makes memorizing math facts any different than any other item that we have them memorize? Nothing.

 

Do you have children learn to "read" by memorizing the shape of words? I doubt it. It's same thing with math. one needs to learn the logic of the "language" one is dealing with.

 

Just keep in mind, they will handle it without any damaging effects. We teach the ABC's without an context to every child all the time. We teach them to count way before the context and purpose is learned.

 

It is a very different thing to learn "the names" of the alphabet or numbers and learning to read or to understand mathematical operations. Continuing on a path of memorizing when what's needed is a focus on the logic of the disciplines a child is learning is a superficial education (at best).

 

Why bother to teach phonics? Why not just sit with a stack of flash-cards?

 

It is a big mistake.

 

Bill

[kiana]

I would put learning the ABCs in the same category as learning to count ... and learning facts in isolation in the same category as learning sight words in isolation.

 

I would also add that at the university, one of the biggest problems that I have with students is that they view math as a collection of rules, facts, and algorithms to be memorized. This pervasive attitude is a serious issue with courses where there is simply too much to memorize and one MUST rely on understanding. I'd far rather see a young child playing with cuisenaire rods, geometric shapes, and seeing math discussed in an everyday life context, i.e. "Hmm, now we need one and a half cups of flour, but we're making a double batch, so we need three cups altogether ..." than memorizing facts in isolation.

[boscopup]

My oldest was reading before he learned the ABC song. :D

 

I also count objects when counting with my kids. I don't usually count in isolation with no understanding of what counting "is".

 

But yes, I like the analogy of math facts to sight words. I wouldn't teach sight words before a child has understanding of letter sounds (and we sound out our sight words first - I don't teach them to just remember that the picture of "the" says "the"... I teach that "th" says /th/ and this is an open syllable, so the 'e' says /E/... then we sound out /th/-/E/, "the").

[Parker Martin]

I give my four year old partial pages from MM now and then. I just cut them in half or wherever there is a logical break. He loves them.

[nmoira]

We teach them to count way before the context and purpose is learned.

 

Consider too - we teach shape recognition but we don't teach geometry thereoms. I could go on, but ...

 

I have little to add to what has been said, other than I've yet to meet a young child taught to count without reference to the meaningful act of counting something or learn random shape names without reference to their associated shapes. Learning to name things and recognize their attributes are not activities without context.

[Create Your Ritual]

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned the Reception year of MEP but I liked the looks of it and have considered using it and the first level before we start with MM. I have two older students currently using MM3 and MM5 and we are enjoying it.

[ChrissySC]

Do you have children learn to "read" by memorizing the shape of words? I doubt it. It's same thing with math. one needs to learn the logic of the "language" one is dealing with.

 

 

 

It is a very different thing to learn "the names" of the alphabet or numbers and learning to read or to understand mathematical operations. Continuing on a path of memorizing when what's needed is a focus on the logic of the disciplines a child is learning is a superficial education (at best).

 

Why bother to teach phonics? Why not just sit with a stack of flash-cards?

 

It is a big mistake.

 

Bill

 

We should not banter over the symantics of the purpose but the value of the knowledge.

 

Consider that the purpose will be revealed. Most education begins with remedial memorization of unrelatable or non-coceptualized fact or knowledge. This would even ring true for my own field of technology. There were many times that strict memorization was needed prior to being able to understand or conceptualize the reason or purpose.

 

We do eventually teach phonics. We will evenatually teach the addition, subtraction, and multiplication.

 

Nothing wrong with memorization of the facts or skip counting. They learn shapes without theory or proof. Same thing. :001_smile:

 

I won't beat this topic. Just consider how much you buck at the idea that your child is a sponge that can memorize them now while reading posts about how often fact memorization becomes an issue even when they have the concept in hand.

 

You are trying to make the task too complicated and find some educational rebuke. You cannot find one because it is not any different than what we do on a day-to-day basis.

 

Note: Children learn to read by decoding the symbols which are indeed shapes. So, not a very good example, but I think you are making the purpose too complicated or trying to find fault with the memorization. And perhaps, my point is a little ambiguous.

[Spy Car]

I'm thinking back on one of the exercises in Miquon on "shapes" that we did back when my son was 4.

 

There were two example boxes.

 

The first said: These are polygons, and in the box were a number of different looking polygons.

 

The second box said: These are not polygons. The examples, for various reasons, were not polygons. Some included arcs, some were not "closed", etc.

 

Then the child faced a third box containing a bunch of shapes, and they are asked to circle the shapes that are not polygons. The shapes in this box do not look like the ones in the example boxes, but a child can look at what makes a polygon, or what might disqualify it from being a polygon, and they can reason which is which.

 

Bill