KISS grammar questions....

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok, I'm looking at KISS Grammar. Can someone explain to me how to use this? Can you download it? Can you buy it printed?

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes, as I stated in another post I am very intrigued by it, but I can't figure out how to use it exactly. I would love to have KISS users explain where to start and what a typical day would look like?

[Halcyon]

I want to look into this further too, but I can't deal with the site. Would love help.

[lewelma]

We have been using KISS grammar for 4 years. My son loves grammar and has loved the approach that KISS uses. We tried MCT last year, and he asked to go back to KISS because he was learning more. The professor, Ed Vavra, has been working on this program for 10+ years I think. He has organized grammar into 5 "levels" of work, and has put the work into grades. So regardless of your child's grade, you MUST master the material at each level. It looks like he is currently trying to make materials that are appropriate for older kids, but I have not found that my 11 year old cares that he has just finished the 4th grade book, because the books are hard. There have been older kids (7th grade) using the 2nd grade book -- it is just that the literature is more juvenile (Peter Rabbit) but the sentences are still equally hard as a typical 7th grade book.

 

The levels are:

1. the basics: adj, adv, verbs (tense, mode, etc), direct objects, indirect objects, pred noun, pred adj, prep phrases

2.advanced basics: phrasal verbs, understood you, when is to a preposition, etc.

2. clauses

3. gerundives and gerunds and infinitives

4. 8 more constructions - these become very convoluted!

 

Ed's goal is for children to be able to analyze real sentences, and be able to understand EVERY word in ANY sentence EVER written. Instead of setting up a repetitive exercises that are easy, eg: "the boy his the ball. please find the direct object." He picks sentences out of real literature, beatrix potter and other classics for 2nd grade, Call of the Wild for 5th grade. I just pulled this out of the 2nd grade book to give you an example:

Underline verbs twice, their subjects once, and label complements (PA, PN, IO, or DO).

1. While the mother duck was eating a big bug, the old duck bit the ugly duckling.

2. At last the king of the north went back to his own country, and drove before him the thunder and lightning and rain and the black storm-clouds and the icy wind.

 

this is tough stuff for 2nd grade. You are not expected to id everything in the sentences for each exercise, but your child is expected to work through long detailed sentences, and find what they are looking for.

The site is pretty hard to navigate. because there is a LOT of content, and he is catering for different needs. Some want the online approach, others want just the textbook material and to use their own sentences. I prefer the all inclusive workbooks, so for those go to http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/KISS.htm (or google KISS grammar), hit the Kiss grammar workbooks, scroll down to section 2, complete workbooks for grades 2 through 11, and down load the appropriate work book (e.g. 6th grade workbook is in "level 4" which is about verbals, it is 66 pages and answers are an additional 90 pages) The workbook contains both the exercises and text book material (it is interspersed).

 

Also, be warned, that Ed has not yet finished his project so although there is a lot that is done, there is plenty that is still under construction.

 

there is a Yahoo board that is available to answer more questions at: KISSgrammargroup

 

Hope this helps! I am happy to answer more questions.

 

ruth

[Free]

Ok, I'm looking at KISS Grammar. Can someone explain to me how to use this? Can you download it? Can you buy it printed?

 

KISS Grammar is available in word doc files on their website. You have to download it.

 

This is how it works. You go to the "KISS Grammar workbook page".

 

There are four KISS Levels (Basic concepts, More basic concepts, Clauses and Verbals). A child has to work through all four levels starting from 1 to 4.

 

Under each KISS Level there are grade level books. The concepts covered in all Grade level books will be the same. Only the level of difficulty will vary. So you can pretty much choose any grade level book that your child would be comfortable working with. For example if your child is going to just start KISS and is in grade 2, then you can choose KISS Level 1, Grade 2 book. If you have an older child who is about to start KISS, then you can choose KISS Level 1, Grade 6 book.

 

Once the child finishes KISS Level 1, then you move to KISS Level 2 and so on.

 

Right now, only some of the grade level books are available as word documents. You will need to download both the workbook which the child will work on, and the Answer Keys.

 

Hope this helps.

[matilda]

http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/PBooks/index.htm

This is the page to get the actual workbooks. From the home page, you can find other information, but I assume this is what you have questions about.

 

I use KISS for two of my dc. I decided to start with the grade level books, since they were easier to figure out than the master books at the bottom of the page. For dd10, I am using the 6th grade book, since that is the closest to her grade. I downloaded the Level One book and the IG, which is called the AK (Analysis Key). I printed both books, but you would probably only need to print the student book. Once dd is finished with the Level One book, then we will move on to the Level Two Sixth Grade book and so on. Currently the sixth grade books end at Level 4, so after we finish that, we will move on to the Master books starting at Level 5.

 

As for a typical day, there is not much to say. We only do one page, since we are not really in a hurry and dd's ps grammar education was minimal. There is information about each exercise in the AK, along with some guidance for the instructor. We are using KISS in addition to MCT, and it has been working well.

[Kfamily]

Ruth,

I have been looking at KISS as well. I need a grammar program for my 3rd grader who reads about 6th-8th grade level and writes and spells above level too. I was wondering if I could use the level one work but with a workbook designed for a upper elementary/lower middle school level (say 6th grade)? The grammar lessons seem to cover the same material (within the first level) except the literature choices are more advanced. Is this correct? I would like to use the literature from this level because it is a much better fit for her. Would this be okay?

 

Thanks so much!

[Free]

I was wondering if I could use the level one work but with a workbook designed for a upper elementary/lower middle school level (say 6th grade)? The grammar lessons seem to cover the same material (within the first level) except the literature choices are more advanced. Is this correct? I would like to use the literature from this level because it is a much better fit for her. Would this be okay?

 

If your third grader is comfortable with the sentences in the 6th grade workbook, then this is perfectly okay to do. You can of course download both the 3rd grade and 6th grade books for KISS Level 1 and see for yourself which would be a better fit.

[Kfamily]

Thank you!

[letsplaymath]

Ok, I'm looking at KISS Grammar. Can someone explain to me how to use this? Can you download it? Can you buy it printed?

You've gotten some good answers so far. Let me see if I can think of anything to add...

 

Important Background Information

 

The key to understanding the KISS Grammar system, IMO, is A Psycholinguistic Model of How the Human Brain Processes Language. In this article, Dr. Vavra explains how we can understand sentences longer than seven words, even though we only have (on average) seven slots in our short-term memory. They "chunking" process he describes is what KISS Grammar teaches your student to analyze.

 

If you're going to use KISS Grammar, you definitely want to join the KISS Grammar Yahoo Group, where you can ask questions as you work through the lessons. You WILL have questions!

 

Choosing a Grade Level

 

The easiest way to use KISS Grammar is to pick one of the grade level workbooks, and you should normally pick one at or below your student's grade level. My daughter used the 2nd grade book in 2nd-4th grade (we stretched the lessons out and took several long breaks), and then used portions of the 3rd and 4th grade books for 5th and 6th grade. Just this fall, as we were headed into 7th grade, I noticed that Ed had a 6th grade book out. At the rate we're going, it will probably last us into high school.

 

Getting Started

 

To start with, download the level 1 doc file (student book) and AK file ("Answer Key" - teacher book) for whichever grade you choose. Read through the book and try some of the exercises for yourself. Decide which ones you want your students to do and print those out. (It really helps if you print the answer keys in color.) If you have done other grammars, you may find that much of level 1 is review, and you can probably skip several of the lessons. The most important lesson in level 1 is identifying the types of complements, emphasizing the analytical process, so make sure your student masters that!

 

Points to Remember

 

My daughter and I use the buddy method to work through our KISS Grammar lessons: I do a sentence, then she does one, then me, her, me, her, all the way down the page. This year, using the 6th grade book, the sentences are much more complicated, and we will often do only two (one for each of us) or four of them. It may take us several days to finish one workbook lesson.

 

Do not feel that you need to hurry through the workbook. We are learning together, and even one sentence a day is a good workout, when that sentence is near the edge of the student's ability to analyze.

 

Also, keep in mind that mistakes are expected. Some phrases are complex, and we don't want to confuse students with all the nuances at first. So, for instance, until they have studied verbals (introduced in level 2, but not fully mastered until level 4), students will probably mark infinitive phrases as part of the verb. That's fine!

 

And remember that alternate explanations are often equally valid. Sometimes Ed mentions alternative ways to mark a sentence in the answer key, but he couldn't possibly think of every alternative for every sentence. If the student's explanation makes sense to you, it is probably fine. Whenever you are unsure, feel free to post the sentence and analysis on the Yahoo group.

 

Continue Through the Levels

 

Take as long as you need on level 1. When you and your students are completely comfortable with that material, then go back to the printable books page and download the level 2 doc file (student book) and AK file ("Answer Key" - teacher book) for whichever grade you choose. Again, read through the file and decide how much you are going to do, then print out what you need.

 

Work through the level 2 lessons at whatever pace is comfortable for your student -- even if it's only one sentence per day, or three sentences per week. The important thing is to master the material, not to get through it in a certain amount of time. When you are completely comfortable with the material in level 2, move on to level 3.1, and so forth.

[Capt_Uhura]

The HIVE to the rescue!!! I love you guys!!!! :001_smile: OK, after all of your wonderful explanations, I will give it a second look.

 

Thank you!

Capt Uhura

[Create Your Ritual]

Thanks everyone!

[TracyP]

Wow, your explanations are awesome!:001_smile:I have tried to use KISS in the past but could not make sense of it. This is so helpful! I have a few more questions.

 

Do you print in color? I saw the recommendation to print the AK in color. What about the student books?

 

How do you store the student book/AK?

 

How hard is it to teach? I am very much learning grammar alongside my children. The AK looks pretty thorough at first glance...is it?

[lewelma]

We print in color. You could get away with black and white for the student book (although there will be a few areas in the explanations within this book that would be nice in color). But the answer key HAS to be in color. If you have no color printing, you could always just look at the answers online without printing them.

 

I punch holes and store 10 weeks at a time in a softback folder that has a 2 hole clip in it (we have 4 10 week terms/year). I include the answers for those weeks in the back, as my son references them all the time while he is working.

 

I don't actually teach it at all. It is one of the curriculum that is fully self-teaching for my ds(11). He has been self teaching it since about 8 or 9. When we did a brief trial of MCT, he obviously had learned the material in KISS because he could answer all the questions.

 

The answer key is the very definition of thorough. Not only does he mark what you were supposed to find, he has a discussion for the parent about the unusual constructions in the sentence that you are not supposed to know. Also, he sometimes indicates the alternative ways to analyze something.

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited November 15, 2011 by lewelma

[matilda]

Do you print in color? I saw the recommendation to print the AK in color. What about the student books?

 

How do you store the student book/AK?

 

 

I printed everything in color.

 

I store both the student book and the AK in 3-ring binders. I put the pages of the student book into page protectors so that I could use it for more than one kid and my dc do their work with markers.

[Cosmos]

Just watch out for the cost if you're printing in color. A couple of years ago I had a KISS workbook and answer key printed and bound at Office Max. I knew it would cost a bit, but since the curriculum was free, I splurged and did the whole thing in color.

 

When I went to pick it up, the price tag was over $100. :eek: How stupid of me not to get a precise cost ahead of time! However, since the store had not quoted a price for me, as they are supposed to do, they gave me a substantial discount. Very lucky!

 

I like the KISS approach, though I would prefer traditional diagramming to the sentence marking method. We're doing sentence diagramming this year, and grammar is really clicking for my son. He's a very visual learner, and I think the graphical layout helps him a lot. He says sentence diagramming is his favorite part of school!

[Create Your Ritual]

With the printable KISS Grammar Books, I would probably just download the entire document and then put it on their laptops to use instead of printing it. Then they could work the solutions on lined paper. Would that work, or is there a lot of the time that printing would be better? I suppose it will have them writing out a lot of sentences if I do it off the laptop.. so perhaps we could do it orally if I find that I like the program enough.

 

The main question I have is the printable workbooks are only for 2nd or 6th grade right now. I guess the 6th grade one could last a while, but what if you want to move beyond? Is that what everything else on the website is about? I can figure out if there are all grades available somewhere or just 2nd and 6th?

[lewelma]

Well, it has been 2 years since I printed everything he had available, and since then he has rearranged a lot of stuff. Given that, my understanding is that you need to get through Level 5 and then you are done with theory and ready for application. It appears in the grade 6 book he does all of level 4 and level 5.8. I think that level 5 has 8 constructions, so I am not sure where the other 7 went. But these are pretty obscure things if I remember correctly, so he may have dropped it out of the standard sequence. I will write Ed today and ask. So after 6th grade, you do the applications which if you scroll down are at the bottom of the page.

 

As for limited printing, I would print various pages within the student book. The student book contains the instruction (which you could read in color online) and the worksheets. He explained a few years ago that some teachers wanted extra worksheets to give to struggling students, so he has more than a typical student would need. When he has repeats (sometimes 4 repeats on a topic) I usually just print 2 of each kind. If ds doesn't get the concept, then I print the extras that he needs. So you probably only really need to print 1/3 to 1/2 of the student book, and you could definitely do that part in black and white. You would just have to pick and choose which pages to print.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Create Your Ritual]

I can see how this method would integrate easily with MCT, but since I don't know much beyond MCTs grammar, R&S4 that we did last year, and the few weeks of ALL I am unsure of which method to choose. It seems clear that he doesn't do traditional diagramming, but by the time you completethe levels, the student would be well versed in any sentence they wanted to understand better, so I am not sure where diagramming would come into play at that point. Perhaps others might be able to clarify that for me?

 

I am just trying to figure out why this method appeals to some vs. a more traditional route. I need to dig around a bit more, but if I am missing something obvious about it I would love for someone to reply. I do like the examples he uses, and the fact that he takes so much of his material from literature. My kids would definitely like that aspect of it. I noticed with Level 1 6th grade he is having you identify PN and PA and that would be new to us.

 

Do you all feel like KISS is a very indepth grammar curriculum? Would it have you more than ready to take on any higher level of R&S or Hake or some of the others out there once you were done with it?

[lewelma]

SaDonna,

 

KISS grammar moves very fast. By the end of his 6th grade book, you are basically DONE. There is no additional grammar to learn (well, unless you are into linguistics etc). Next is application, which is really the copia of Classical Writing or a book like Sentence Composing by Killgallon.

 

My plan is to get a diagramming book and spend a few months on that. But once you know the grammar, doing it visually is just a small change, nothing really new. My goal is to be done with grammar and diagramming by the end of 7th grade, and then just analyze a sentence from ds's writing and a sentence from literature every week until he graduates. I also plan to do the copia exercises listed above during 8th-10th grade.

 

Also, depending on how much grammar your dc have done, you may need to backtrack to Level 1,2 and 3 and make sure they know everything before moving to the 6th grade book in Level 4. It is all about mastering the Levels regardless of the grade.

 

Ruth

 

(I e-mailed Ed, and will let you know what he says about what is after 6th grade)

Edited November 16, 2011 by lewelma

[Free]

With the printable KISS Grammar Books, I would probably just download the entire document and then put it on their laptops to use instead of printing it. Then they could work the solutions on lined paper. Would that work, or is there a lot of the time that printing would be better? I suppose it will have them writing out a lot of sentences if I do it off the laptop.. so perhaps we could do it orally if I find that I like the program enough.

 

The main question I have is the printable workbooks are only for 2nd or 6th grade right now. I guess the 6th grade one could last a while, but what if you want to move beyond? Is that what everything else on the website is about? I can figure out if there are all grades available somewhere or just 2nd and 6th?

 

You could use the 6th grade books for all KISS levels, because really it is more about the actual concepts covered and those are same for all grades.

 

The other grades are available, but not as downloadable word documents. There are only available online. If you look at this page, every KISS level has material upto the 11th grade. If you click on any of the grade links it will take you to the online material.

 

I have printed the workbooks. Since each exercise involves analyzing anywhere between 10 to 20 sentences, I feel it would be tedious for a child to first write those down in their books.

[Free]

I am just trying to figure out why this method appeals to some vs. a more traditional route. I need to dig around a bit more, but if I am missing something obvious about it I would love for someone to reply. I do like the examples he uses, and the fact that he takes so much of his material from literature. My kids would definitely like that aspect of it. I noticed with Level 1 6th grade he is having you identify PN and PA and that would be new to us.

 

I have not seen any of the other grammar programs such as MCT or RS4, so I do not know how KISS compares to those. The appeal of KISS for me is that it teaches grammar in context, rather than as discrete bits of information that need to come together in your head. With KISS, I will be able to read or write a sentence and see how the different parts relate to each other.

 

I also like that it uses real sentences from quality literature where it is often difficult to see the concept being demonstrated, rather than contrived and easy examples set up so that the concept is obvious.

 

And lastly, it is comprehensive, top quality program which is completely free of cost. That makes it very valuable to me.

[letsplaymath]

I can see how this method would integrate easily with MCT, but since I don't know much beyond MCTs grammar, R&S4 that we did last year, and the few weeks of ALL I am unsure of which method to choose. It seems clear that he doesn't do traditional diagramming, but by the time you completethe levels, the student would be well versed in any sentence they wanted to understand better, so I am not sure where diagramming would come into play at that point. Perhaps others might be able to clarify that for me?

Ed has discussed diagramming:

Diagramming Sentences within the KISS Approach

 

No, thanks! I'll stick to marking up the text the KISS way. It makes sense to me, lets me understand the sentence, and doesn't take nearly so much space.

[lewelma]

The main question I have is the printable workbooks are only for 2nd or 6th grade right now. I guess the 6th grade one could last a while, but what if you want to move beyond? Is that what everything else on the website is about? I can figure out if there are all grades available somewhere or just 2nd and 6th?

 

Here is Ed's response. I have bolded the main part that states that when you have finished grade 6, you are done. There are no workbooks after that because there is no more grammar material to make into additional workbooks. Any 7th-12th grade workbooks are just the 2nd through 6th grade books remade with more mature literature (but not necessarily more difficult grammatically)

 

Here is Ed's response .....

 

 

I’m not sure of what pages on the site you have looked at. The most important page is probably the “Printable Books†page at: http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/PBooks/index.htm . It has been reorganized with the “Grade-Level†books above the “Master Books.†The main difference between the two is the sentences used for exercises. KISS is organized around the Levels, and the instructional materials for each level are identical, that is, the same in the book for third graders as in the (future) book for eleventh graders.

 

The assumption (justified, I think) is that third graders who learn how to identify the subjects and verbs (for example) in any sentence will be able the subjects and verbs in longer, more complicated sentences – including sentences with more advanced vocabulary – as they move up through the grades. (This assumes that the students will be doing at least a couple of analysis exercises every month after they have finished the Level One book. Otherwise, they will forget what they have learned.) Thus the purpose of the grade-level books is to provide grade-level entry points into the KISS Levels.

 

In addition to the second-grade book (which I am considering deleting), there is now a totally complete set for sixth graders. There are also a printable Level One and Level Two books for third graders. And there is a printable Level 3.1 book for fourth graders. Students who finish that book can then move to the printable Level 3.2 book for sixth graders, and then to the Level 4 book.

 

You may remember that KISS was originally developed for a one-semester course for future teachers. In that context, we simply did not have time for many simple (and some not-so-simple) constructions. These were relegated to Level 5.

 

The curriculum design on the web site is intended as basically a five-year sequence for students starting as early as grade three. Within that context, each “level†is proposed as approximately a year’s work. (It can, of course, be done faster or slower.) But within that context, three simple “Level 5†constructions (interjections, nouns used as adverbs, direct address) are included at the end of the Level 2 book. (You’ll be able to see this under the “Master Books†on the printable books page.)

 

For a number of reasons, clauses (KISS Level 3) are the most important construction that students need to master. For that reason, I broke Level 3 into two parts. Level 3.1 introduces the basics. You can probably see this best by looking at the on-line sixth grade books at: http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/G06_WB_Start.htm#L3. If you look at that, you may note that these sections include many of the practice/application exercises that used to be in the “P/A†sections. For example, they include punctuation exercises, combining and de-combining exercises, and exercises on the logic of subordinate clauses.

 

KISS Level 3.2 is a separate book. It includes four “advanced questions†about clauses, but these can almost certainly be more or less mastered in less than a year. Thus the printable versions of this book also include four more “Level Five†constructions (appositives, post-positioned adjectives, delayed subjects, and passive voice). The most important of these is passive voice, and it is not a bad idea to have students spend a fair amount of time on passives. You can see this set-up on-line at: http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/G06_WB1.htm.

 

The final printable books in the sequence are for Level Four. These focus on verbals and on noun absolutes. Noun absolutes really need to be left until last because students will probably not understand them before they have mastered gerundives (one of the three verbals). Theoretically, sixth-grade students can finish level four, which means that they will have learned everything they need to be able to identify and intelligently discuss the function of any word in any sentence they read or write. Of course, they will need more practice as their own sentences become more complicated, etc.

 

On the KISSGrammar Yahoo group, some people have indicated that their ninth or tenth graders do not mind doing the exercises in the sixth grade books. (They didn’t particularly appreciate doing the exercises based on Beatrix Potter stories in the second or third grade books.) My mid-range objective is to complete the printable books for ninth grade. (You can see the difference at: http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/G09_WB1.htm#L4_Verbals. )

 

My immediate concern is the switching of Level 1.2 and i.3. Members of the Yahoo group have reported problems in getting their students to understand complements and their types. I’m improving the instructional material for that, but I also realized the if adjectives and adverbs (currently Level 1.3) were introduced before complements (currently Level 1.2), students should have fewer problems with predicate adjectives. (I should have realized this long ago, but I’m a slow thinker.)

 

The “Practice/Application†exercises are intended as supplemental exercises, or as exercises that students might use after they finish KISS Level 4. See for example, http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/LPlans/G09_WB1.htm#Practice_L_4. There is no need to do all of these – teachers or parents can choose. The basic idea is that students should USE and APPLY what they have learned.

 

I also want to develop the section on “Statistical Stylistics.†The primary idea here is to have students evaluate their own writing in comparison to that of their peers.

 

I hope this helps,

Ed

[Create Your Ritual]

Thanks Denise for the link to the diagramming info. It does appear to get a bit difficult at the more complex stages.. lol.

 

Lewelma.. I appreciate you posting his response. I am going to spend the time clicking on all the links this week. Are you using the 6th grade levels right now? Obviously it has been going well if you are sticking with it, but have their been any snags along the way? It seems relatively straight forward if you just steer clear of the website and download the workbooks. ;-)

[Create Your Ritual]

The combining exercising in KISS at the later stages reminds me of Killgallon, but I also have to wonder if the work a student might do in CW Homer might be helpful? It is all very interesting though.

[lewelma]

Are you using the 6th grade levels right now? Obviously it has been going well if you are sticking with it, but have their been any snags along the way?

 

We have done the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade books (although back then they were labelled differently). We have just started the 6th grade book, and it looks to be very fun. My ds asked to move on from the 5th grade book with still about 3 weeks left of exercises to do. He felt that he had mastered clauses, and was ready for verbals. The first day of verbals in the 6th grade book blew him away, and for the first time in 4 years, he told me that he could not do the work without my help. Well, I have never studied verbals. I never had grammar in school, ever. All the grammar I know is from 6 years of Latin, and Latin does not really use verbals like English does. So I had to spend some time with the grade 6 workbook today. I have decided to rearrange his presentation somewhat, and start with the "intro to gerunds" rather than the Mixed verbals section. And I think that will solve a lot of problems. What is great about Ed is that I am on his direct list, so I can just send him my suggestions. He will take them or leave them, but I know they will be considered. I guess I am a beta tester. :001_smile:

 

As for any trouble, no, none really. My ds just loves KISS. It has always been challenging, and the answers never obvious. He corrects each sentence after he analyzes it and learns from his mistakes, and then he works on the next sentence. He typically can only do 1/2 an exercise in 20 minutes, but sometimes he can do a whole one. I just let him do what he thinks he can in a day. I suppose you could say he self-paces. What is the absolute best thing about KISS is that it uses REAL sentences from the beginning. Nothing easy and obvious, but rather the convoluted stuff that we write every day.

 

I definitely think that Ed's end goal is like the work in Classical Writing' sentence shuffle or Killgallon. You don't just learn grammar, you use it to improve your writing. When I write, I see the grammatical structure of each and every sentence. I write and puncutate with grammar. I know that a lot of people don't, but in the end, using it to improve your writing is what studying grammar is all about. So it seems to me that studying REAL from the beginning is the way to go.

 

We LOVE KISS and have since ds(11) was 7.5. It is the ONLY curriculum that I have never questioned.

 

As for the website, just download the workbooks and never go back. :001_smile:

 

Ruth

Edited November 17, 2011 by lewelma

[Create Your Ritual]

Thank you Lewelma. So, did he used to have grade level workbooks for 3rd, 4th, 5th grades to download or are you talking about the individual downloads for each assignment and having to download them separately. I thought about starting dd in 6th grade one, but now with your description I am not so sure. ;-)

[Capt_Uhura]

For the levels that don't have downloadable word docs, how you do use it? Do you just print directly from the webpage or do you use it only online and have DC write out all the sentences?

[Free]

Thank you Lewelma. So, did he used to have grade level workbooks for 3rd, 4th, 5th grades to download or are you talking about the individual downloads for each assignment and having to download them separately. I thought about starting dd in 6th grade one, but now with your description I am not so sure. ;-)

 

For the levels that don't have downloadable word docs, how you do use it? Do you just print directly from the webpage or do you use it only online and have DC write out all the sentences?

 

All KISS levels have downloadable word docs for Grade 6. Right now ds10 is in KISS level 1, and we are using the 3rd grade book for this level (even though ds is in 5th grade). I plan to use Grade 6 books from KISS Level 2 onwards.

 

The grade level does not really matter, because the exercises are mainly analyzing sentences from literature. The kind of literature used will vary with the grades, but the actual exercises will not.

[lewelma]

KISS is all about mastering the levels. There are 5 levels, and Ed just said above that level 5 has been integrated into the other workbooks for levels 1-4. The student needs to start at level 1. If you have done grammar before, your student might know level 1 (or even 2 or 3), but you should look first. Ed's stuff is HARD.

 

In the beginning, he did not have any printable grade-level books, and a number of parents from Ambleside Online (who was recommending it at the time) asked him to write them. It was just too difficult to pick and choose from what was available online. So Ed started this very massive project. Then he had school teachers say that kids had to get through verbals by the end of 5th grade because of testing, so Ed made the books for grades 2 through 5. What I think he found is that the material was too difficult to do for those ages, and the school teachers were actually talking about the easy, staged type exercises not real sentence exercises. So then he stretched it out and it looks like you could do grades 3 to 6 at the earliest to finish. But then so many older students wanted to do the material, and some were insulted that they found the 2nd grade book difficult in 7th grade, so Ed started the next project of making another SET of workbooks. Keep in mind this is not his job, just his hobby. He has only really started this second set of workbooks. As he says above, it does not matter if you child is in 7th grade and doing the 3rd grade level 1 workbook. The student must master level 1, and the 3rd grade workbook would challenge any age if the student had not had any grammar.

 

So..... look at level 1 3rd grade book (Ed has said that the 2nd grade book is mostly repeated in the 3rd grade book and he might get rid of it, but my ds did both the 2nd and 3rd grade books over 3 years b/c they were long and hard). Work with the KISS style of marking, make sure you can handle some nasty verbs, and all the basic parts of the sentence, and then look at level 2. Work through the workbooks by levels 1-4, regardless of the grade they are called.

 

I really wish that Ed could get someone to spend the time to help him with his website. I have actually looked, and thought I had found someone, but it fell through. So if you know a designer looking for some pro bono work, Ed's project would be something to be proud of.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Create Your Ritual]

Thanks Ruth. When you say made the books for 2nd - 5th though I don't see all those grade level workbooks available as one doc. to download per level. There are a lot of --- sections which presumably means that I would have to go and individually download each lesson for each grade (say.. level 1 grade 5, all of those are somewhere else and not on the easy download place where it's one workbook). So, I think I am getting that I would either work with Grade 3 Level 1 or Grade 6 Level 1 at first before moving onto Level 2 in either grade, as those are the workbooks that I can see to download. Grief... I hope I am not confusing you all.

 

I have actually downloaded Level 1 of both grades to compare. I would only need the student book for that level as well as the answer key and then I am set, right?

 

Oh.. and I agree about the website. I have looked at this countless times over the past two years and always stepped away as I couldn't make heads or tails of it. I soooo appreciate you all taking the time to explain it more. It is worth someone making it more user friendly!

Edited November 17, 2011 by SaDonna

[Capt_Uhura]

But the levels above 6th grade are only online correct? So you'd have to just print them directly from the website, yes?

[lewelma]

But the levels above 6th grade are only online correct? So you'd have to just print them directly from the website, yes?

 

I'm not sure I am understanding you here.

 

KISS teaches ALL grammar in the English Language in levels 1-5. His 6th grade workbook is for level 4 and the last stuff of level 5. The is nothing else you need. Your student now knows English grammar. So "levels above 6th grade" does not make sense to me.

[lewelma]

I believe that this is what I have used, although everything had different names back then:

 

Level 1:

2nd grade (141 pages)

3rd grade (153 pages)

 

Level 2:

3rd grade (61 pages)

 

Level 3.1

4th grade (84 pages)

 

Level 3.2

6th grade (85 pages)

 

Level 4 and 5.8

6th grade (66 pages)

 

People considered the grade 3 book too long, so he split it up. It did take us 2 years to do 3rd grade. Also, the level 3.2 and level 4 6th grade books used to be merged in a 5th grade book, and for some reason he has called them 6th grade, which is why 5th grade seems to be missing. But the material is still there.

 

The problem is that this project is a work in process, and he is getting feedback from so many types of users that it is confusing at times. But well worth the trouble IMHO.

 

Ruth

[Create Your Ritual]

O.K... I think I understand where all the levels went then. ;-)

[Capt_Uhura]

I'm not sure I am understanding you here.

 

KISS teaches ALL grammar in the English Language in levels 1-5. His 6th grade workbook is for level 4 and the last stuff of level 5. The is nothing else you need. Your student now knows English grammar. So "levels above 6th grade" does not make sense to me.

 

If you look at this sheet page http://home.pct.edu/%7Eevavra/kiss/wb/PBooks/index.htm there are levels beyond 6th grade. So what you're saying is if your DC can do the 6th grade of all four levels, then they are done with grammar? THere is no need to do any of 7th-11th grade?

[Create Your Ritual]

There seems to be a lot of material you can click on in the 7th - 11th grade sections, but I wonder if any of it is the same or redundant??? I guess if it was new material, it would be a way to stay on top of what you have already learned... I can't really tell though if it is the total and complete instructional material as would be in the 6th grade downloadable workbooks.

[lewelma]

If you look at this sheet page http://home.pct.edu/%7Eevavra/kiss/wb/PBooks/index.htm there are levels beyond 6th grade. So what you're saying is if your DC can do the 6th grade of all four levels, then they are done with grammar? THere is no need to do any of 7th-11th grade?

 

Yes. This is exactly what I am saying. The 7th to 11th grade material is identical to the 2nd to 6th grade materials but using literature like Moby Dick instead of Peter Rabbit. Ed found that there were 7th graders who were embarrassed to be doing the "2nd grade" workbook, so he started the project again with high school literature. However, these books DO NOT cover different grammar. Once you have finished the 6th grade level 4 and 5.8 book you are DONE with grammar.

 

Here is the first exercise in the level 4 6th grade book. I have not gotten to the last page yet. This is about as tough as it gets IMHO. I am not sure what else you would want to study in English grammar? How in the world would you fill 5 more workbooks for 7th to 11th grades? I think people are used to grammar taking into high school to learn. But Ed has the kids working with very difficult sentences from the first, so I honestly think it takes 5 years rather than 8 or 10 to get through it all.

 

Directions:

1. Place parentheses around each prepositional phrase.

2. Underline every subject once, every verb twice, and label complements (“PA,” “PN,” “IO,” “DO”).

3. Put brackets [ ] around every subordinate clause and use arrows or labels to indicate their function.

4. Put a vertical line at the end of every main clause.

5. Put a box around every gerund and gerundive. Label the function of gerunds and draw a line from each gerundive to the word it modifies.

6. Draw an oval around every infinitive and label its function.

 

1. Early next morning when the dawn was breaking she left her father’s house, leaving a little note behind her begging him not to be anxious but that she had gone to the Beast’s castle.

 

1. Earlynext morning [NuA][[#1]whenthedawnwas breaking]sheleft her father'shouse (DO), leaving a little note [#2]{behind her} begging him not to be anxious [#3]but *stating* [#3][DO thatshehad gone{to the Beast's castle}]. |

 

1. This clause can be described as adjectival to “morning” or as adverbial either to “early” or to “left.”

2. “Note” is the direct object of the gerundive “leaving.” The gerundive phrase modifies “she.”

3. “Anxious” is a predicate adjective after the infinitive “to be.” “Him” is the subject of that infinitive, and the infinitive phrase functions as the direct object of “begging.” “Begging” is a gerundive that modifies “note.” This gerundive phrase is connected to an implied gerundive, “saying” or “stating.”

 

 

In Ed's own words: Theoretically, sixth-grade students can finish level four, which means that they will have learned everything they need to be able to identify and intelligently discuss the function of any word in any sentence they read or write. Of course, they will need more practice as their own sentences become more complicated, etc.

 

You are DONE with grammar when you finish the level 4/5.8 6th grade book.

 

Ruth

Edited November 18, 2011 by lewelma

[Create Your Ritual]

Thanks for the continued guidance and explanations Ruth. ;-)

[Halcyon]

I am going to download the grade 3 and grade 6 workbooks tonight and try and understand them. Thank you for all your help!

 

(if i understand right, my rising 5th grader, who will have completed GWG5, can start with the Grade 6 workbook, and I will look at the Levels therein to determine which one to start him at. My rising 2nd grader, who will have finished GWG2, would start with workbook Grade 3, and again, I will look at the Levels to determine where he would fit.)

[Free]

If you look at this sheet page http://home.pct.edu/%7Eevavra/kiss/wb/PBooks/index.htm there are levels beyond 6th grade. So what you're saying is if your DC can do the 6th grade of all four levels, then they are done with grammar? THere is no need to do any of 7th-11th grade?

 

Yes. You move through the KISS levels, not the grade levels. You can choose the online materials for Grade 7-11, but since the printable formats are easier to use, I would personally use the 6th grade book for all KISS levels.

 

It does not mean you do all of the KISS Levels in 6th grade. Completing all 4 levels would take 3-4 years I believe. But you still choose the 6th grade books for the various KISS Levels over the time it takes to do them.

[Free]

I am going to download the grade 3 and grade 6 workbooks tonight and try and understand them. Thank you for all your help!

 

(if i understand right, my rising 5th grader, who will have completed GWG5, can start with the Grade 6 workbook, and I will look at the Levels therein to determine which one to start him at. My rising 2nd grader, who will have finished GWG2, would start with workbook Grade 3, and again, I will look at the Levels to determine where he would fit.)

 

I still feel you should start at KISS Level 1. KISS is basically analyzing sentences from real literature, so it would still be fun and interesting for a child who has had Grammar instruction already.

[lewelma]

It does not mean you do all of the KISS Levels in 6th grade. Completing all 4 levels would take 3-4 years I believe.

 

:iagree: This might even be true if your dc have done a couple of years in another program, as KISS uses much more complicated sentences.

 

Ruth

[lewelma]

I still feel you should start at KISS Level 1. KISS is basically analyzing sentences from real literature, so it would still be fun and interesting for a child who has had Grammar instruction already.

:iagree:again.

[Halcyon]

I still feel you should start at KISS Level 1. KISS is basically analyzing sentences from real literature, so it would still be fun and interesting for a child who has had Grammar instruction already.

 

Thank you. I am going to look at Level 1 right now, for both my 6 yo and my 9 yo.

[letsplaymath]

There seems to be a lot of material you can click on in the 7th - 11th grade sections, but I wonder if any of it is the same or redundant??? I guess if it was new material, it would be a way to stay on top of what you have already learned... I can't really tell though if it is the total and complete instructional material as would be in the 6th grade downloadable workbooks.

 

If you want to be able to download a single big file to cover a year's worth of material, you want the grade level workbooks. The links called "doc" will give you a Word file of student lessons and exercises. The links called "AK" will give you the corresponding teacher file with answers and additional comments.

 

Not all grade levels have these all-in-one "doc" files. If you click on the words "For students in Xth grade", that will take you to a page that lists all the KISS exercises, some of which will be links (meaning there is an exercise for that lesson in that grade level). These are exercises covering the SAME topics that are in the big grade-level workbooks, but using sentences from DIFFERENT literature.

 

If you want to blaze your own trail, you can follow those links and find literature that may match what your child is reading. These print perfectly from the webpages, but you have to print them one by one, and be sure to also print the "Instructional Material" and the "AK" (means "Answer Key"). The exercises will be the same as in the big all-in-one workbooks, but the sentences will be different.

 

But if you want to keep it simple, just choose the all-in-one grade level workbook that is closest to your child's level and stick with that.

 

WHATEVER grade level your child is in, he or she should start with KISS Level 1. Each KISS level is approximately one year's worth of work. The KISS levels build on each other, and they must be taken in order. If your child has done other grammar before, he or she may be able to skip several individual lessons, but you must do enough of each level to be sure that the topics (and the style of marking a sentence) are mastered.

Edited November 18, 2011 by letsplaymath
grammar :)

[grace'smom]

I am wondering why he is considering deleting the second grade texts. Is it because he thinks the material is too advanced for a second grader to master? I have a first grader (let me know if I should be asking this on the other board) and this looks very interesting for second grade next year. However, she's a typical student, not an advanced one.

 

Does anyone have any opinions on how this compares to First Language Lessons or Phonics Road?

[jplain]

Cross-posting my question to Ruth from the K-8 Curriculum board, in case she checks here first, and in case anyone else using KISS has thoughts!

 

Would it be a good idea for me to go through the self-paced course before starting with my 8 year old? Or the master books?

Or should I just start working through the 6th grade Level 1 book on my own?

 

My own grammar education was pretty pathetic. I avoid most of the common grammatical errors, but that's only because the errors look & sound wrong to me, not because I know why they're wrong.

[Free]

Would it be a good idea for me to go through the self-paced course before starting with my 8 year old? Or the master books?

Or should I just start working through the 6th grade Level 1 book on my own?

 

I work through the exercises in the workbook before handing them down to my son, so that if he has questions I would be able to guide him. Many of the sentences do stump me, and my plan is to learn grammar along with my son :001_smile:.