Online schooling, consequences, and lack of motivation

[swimmermom3]

I have thought long and hard about putting this out here, but I am quickly running out of ideas and energy.

 

Many of you are familiar with the fact that we brought our never homeschooled daughter home for her senior year last year due to depression. For a quick update, she is doing very well and is one credit away from graduating. She will be done by December and will begin her cosmetology program in January. Her year home was lonely, but very successful academically. It was a pleasure to see her love of learning return.

 

Unfortunately, our oldest son experienced a significant academic meltdown last year for his sophomore year at our local high school. It was one of those weird 3 A's, 3 F's situations. He has to repeat a semester of Chemistry and Spanish II this year. I have long suspected that there was some element of ADHD and he was tested twice in the past: one positive and one negative. He is also a fast mover who pays no attention to details and has a questionable work ethic. I think he believes that either a person is born with a skill or not; effort does not play into the picture at all.

 

Anyway, we put him into our state's online school for this year. I thought if I could observe his habits firsthand and see where his gaps are, I could perhaps help him or find someone who could. In hindsight, putting a 16 yo boy who rides the border of gaming addiction onto a computer for 6-7 hours a day was a bad plan. He was sick last week, so I went into his school account to see if he needed to check in with any teachers. There were dozens and dozens of webmails from a female student in his Spanish class. I am usually fairly respectful of my kids' privacy, but these were all titled "Hey hunn" and "Hey babe." Uh, son, the webmail system is school property. I opened the first one. I think my eyeballs are permanently singed.:tongue_smilie: They made Anais Nin's books look tame. This would explain why in recent weeks he was having trouble getting his classwork done. Being sick on Monday and Tuesday of this week added to that problem.

 

I confronted him Wednesday night and he seemed receptive and somewhat remorseful. The girl contacted me by webmail on Thursday wanting to know if he could come to her Awana meeting that night. Did I mention that they have never met?:tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie: We said, "No way!" He went into immediate meltdown that night and said many things that I am finding hard to forget let alone forgive. Friday, there was no school. He is 14 assignments behind and has not touched his work either Friday or Saturday. We have not responded. We did not let our daughter fall, so why the heck do I feel like letting the boy reap his consequences for not doing the work? Intellectually, I know I need to do something, but I am burned out to the core from micromanaging people who don't seem to want to go anywhere or do anything.

 

I am really trying not to ask the "why" question, but I can't help it. We are a "normal" family. There are no skeletons in the closet. Dh and I were good students who liked school. We would have died of embarrassment to have our parents monitoring our schoolwork. Trying to figure out where we went wrong hasn't been very productive. My dd's counselor recommended a family counselor for my son.

 

Sorry for the long-winded whine, but if anyone has some suggestions on how to start turning this situation around, I am :bigear:.

[Jean in Newcastle]

:grouphug: There are some areas which you are dealing with where we've btdt. It's hard. :grouphug:

 

Some questions and advice that might possibly fit your situation:

 

1. Can you block the other students webmails? If so - I would do that now.

 

2. Is there a reason you can't actually homeschool him instead of the online school? (I don't know the background of your situation so forgive me if this has been stated before.)

 

3. I would suggest a Spanish tutor instead of the online class. (Esp. since the girl issue was related to this class.)

 

4. Perhaps the family counselor might be beneficial in helping to find coping strategies for him. I would look at this more as an ADHD issue even if he might be borderline when tested because his behavior fits the profile and so the strategies used might help him.

[Elizabeth in WA]

I may be excessively controlling, but I have all my children's computers set up so that I can see the monitor from my usual seat in the family room. This provides a strong motivator to have nothing on their screens they would be embarrassed to have me see ever, and also goes a long to to keeping them on task for schoolwork on the computer. We tried computers in bedrooms when we moved into this apartment due to space issues, but that lasted all of two weeks before I made it work to have them in my line of site always just because work wasn't getting done.

 

 

My sixteen year old is pretty responsible, but I not leave him unmonitored to get his work done on a computer. It is far too filled with tempting distractions.

[swimmermom3]

Thanks so much, Jean.

 

:grouphug: There are some areas which you are dealing with where we've btdt. It's hard. :grouphug:

 

Some questions and advice that might possibly fit your situation:

 

1. Can you block the other students webmails? If so - I would do that now.

I am not sure about this, but will check on it. Unfortunately, doing that removes some of the positive social interaction. On the advice of the counselor, I did inform the school of what had happened and let them know that we were handling the situation. A violation of this type along with the fact that he has given her answers to Spanish assessments could result in being kicked out of the school. He signed a student honor code. My heart is breaking at the thought that he is so unsure of himself that he is exchanging "I love yous" with someone he has never met.

 

2. Is there a reason you can't actually homeschool him instead of the online school? (I don't know the background of your situation so forgive me if this has been stated before.)

In Oregon, the homeschool rules are very loose until high school. At that point, you need to make a choice. We discovered this when we brought our dd home last year. For ds, he wants to return to his high school for his senior year, so all of his courses have to be accredited. Going through the state is the least expensive route. For dd, we chose classes independently and it cost us a couple thousand dollars. This expense along with private counseling for both kids has put a lot of financial pressure on dh. We don't go through insurance in order to preserve dd's insurability. So far, we are trying to do the same for our son, especially since his stated goal is to attend a military academy. Ideally, my homeschooling him would be the best academic situation; it is just not feasible.

 

3. I would suggest a Spanish tutor instead of the online class. (Esp. since the girl issue was related to this class.)

We were advised by the school to have him retake the entire Spanish 2 course and that is through the school. We could add the tutor, but that would be on top of the class, if that makes sense. If he doesn't retake it through an accredited program, the high school will not remove the F from his transcript.

 

4. Perhaps the family counselor might be beneficial in helping to find coping strategies for him. I would look at this more as an ADHD issue even if he might be borderline when tested because his behavior fits the profile and so the strategies used might help him.

They are just beginning to do some work on impulse-control. So, do you think from what I have described that ADHD does sound like a possibility? He feels very threatened by his younger brother who has a mind like a steel trap and more confidence than is good for him.

 

Thank you again. I know we aren't the only ones going through this. I think it just feels extra stressful coming on top of the stuff with my daughter.

[swimmermom3]

I may be excessively controlling, but I have all my children's computers set up so that I can see the monitor from my usual seat in the family room. This provides a strong motivator to have nothing on their screens they would be embarrassed to have me see ever, and also goes a long to to keeping them on task for schoolwork on the computer. We tried computers in bedrooms when we moved into this apartment due to space issues, but that lasted all of two weeks before I made it work to have them in my line of site always just because work wasn't getting done.

 

 

My sixteen year old is pretty responsible, but I not leave him unmonitored to get his work done on a computer. It is far too filled with tempting distractions.

 

I don't think that is excessively controlling at all, especially now. :tongue_smilie: The computer is in our great room with the large screen situated so that I can pretty much see it anywhere in the room. The main problem arises when I work with my youngest son. The older one maintains that it is distracting to him. Then again, I did discover reading those webmails that he would wait until I went to the bathroom or fixed a meal with my back turned. I have redone the parental controls on that computer and have a remote desktop on mine so that I can actually see what is on his screen even if I am not in the room. I remind myself that I am the parent, but the remote makes me feel sort of "sleazy."

[angel marie]

you can put spyware on the computer and see everything he does on it. we have it. wish we didn't have to, but we do.

[Ester Maria]

We did not let our daughter fall, so why the heck do I feel like letting the boy reap his consequences for not doing the work?

Because your children, even though they are both your children, are still distinct people. The same approach that helped one child might hinder another child, either right away, either on the long run. Maybe your son needs the natural consequences of his actions, maybe he needs the realization - albeit somewhat painful one - that you will not put up with that by handholding him at this age and micromanaging him, maybe he needs to be forced to OWN his academic failure, those assignments he is late with and those Fs and whatever and pick himself up afterwards? What sounds "cruel" as a method to deal with one child might be just what another child needs - and frankly, he does sound old enough for such a "treatment". You know him the best and you know your gut the best. If you think you need to let him go to deal with the consequences on his own, do it. It is a lot better to go through that lesson at his age than ten years later, and people of such a problematic disposition (keeping in mind what you wrote about his lack of effort, not seeming to want to go anywhere, etc.) typically will have to learn that lesson.

Intellectually, I know I need to do something, but I am burned out to the core from micromanaging people who don't seem to want to go anywhere or do anything.

Exactly.

 

But here is what you need to understand: letting go and leaving him to his own devices to sink or swim does NOT entail "giving up on him". I think this is what makes it hard for you because you feel you ought to do something, or you view it as giving up on him. It is not necessarily so, it is acknowledging that the time has come for him to be the responsible one for his future, not you.

 

We had friends with a son in a similar situation, albeit not homeschooled. At one point, they let him go as far as academics were concerned, making it crystal clear for him that it was his life and his duty. He ended up losing a year, almost giving up on school, then going back and having a poorer academic record and going through a period of a little personal mental hell within himself figuring out where he was and where he wanted to be, and then saying ENOUGH to himself. Right now, he is an excellent med school student - what looked like doom and gloom with no prospectives whatsoever ended up being exactly the kind of kick in the butt the boy needed to pull himself together, clear his head and succeed - and succed out of his own desire to succeed, not because mommy and daddy are pushing him and babysitting him while he studies. They did not give up on him, they just made him OWN his choices as truly HIS choices, rather than THEIRS. I am not saying the same approach would work for every child, maybe it would not for your child, but it is a possible choice which at least in several cases that I know of has worked.

 

Sorry you are having to go through this. :grouphug:

[amtmcm]

You might find this recent thread helpful....

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316730

 

Several people recommended these books:

 

Bright Minds, Poor Grades:

http://www.amazon.com/Bright-Minds-Poor-Grades-Underachieving/dp/0399527052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318617372&sr=8-1

 

That Crumpled Paper was Due Last Week: Helping Disorganized Boys Succeed in School and Life

http://www.amazon.com/That-Crumpled-Paper-Last-Week/dp/0399535594/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318617590&sr=1-1

[elegantlion]

No advice, really, just :grouphug:.

[Wildiris]

Swimmer~

My first reaction when my kids behave poorly, academically and socially, is to let the consequences fall on them, but of course I never follow through. Taking an active role in your child's failures doesn't feel good. I wouldn't let a friend fail, even if they deserved it, why would I let my child fail. This is 100% parenting prerogative.

 

Even if you devise a strategy for your son to catch up, he may fight you all the way to the finish. I know if it were me, I would put on my steely mom face and tuck all emotion away, knowing full well that my kids will throw emotion at me when I start pushing and taking charge of a situation they let get out of hand. In the teen years parents revisit the power struggles of the toddler years. Another thing to consider is the changing mother-son relationship. Sons need and want to shed their mothers. A strong father/grandfather/male influence may turn things around in a way you cannot as the mom.

 

The teen years are difficult even with a "good" kid.

 

The webmail is another issue. I would talk with the online school. Our online school has discussions and board type posts where students respond to one another, but NO webmail between students that I know of; I'll be asking about this when DD wakes up.

 

I check up on DD weekly. I can log into her account and see the grade book for each of her classes. She too is addicted to the computer but somehow manages to get her school work done with good grades. Going outside......that is another issue.

 

 

[swimmermom3]

Because your children, even though they are both your children, are still distinct people. The same approach that helped one child might hinder another child, either right away, either on the long run. Maybe your son needs the natural consequences of his actions, maybe he needs the realization - albeit somewhat painful one - that you will not put up with that by handholding him at this age and micromanaging him, maybe he needs to be forced to OWN his academic failure, those assignments he is late with and those Fs and whatever and pick himself up afterwards? What sounds "cruel" as a method to deal with one child might be just what another child needs - and frankly, he does sound old enough for such a "treatment". You know him the best and you know your gut the best. If you think you need to let him go to deal with the consequences on his own, do it. It is a lot better to go through that lesson at his age than ten years later, and people of such a problematic disposition (keeping in mind what you wrote about his lack of effort, not seeming to want to go anywhere, etc.) typically will have to learn that lesson.

 

My husband and I were discussing this exact point last night. My gut feeling is that if he does not understand consequences now, he will be a loose cannon later with poor credit and difficulty in holding jobs. His dream is to fly helicopters for the Coast Guard. While it is a great goal, at this point he does not like to do anything physically or mentally so I am not sure how he is going to get there.

 

Exactly.

 

But here is what you need to understand: letting go and leaving him to his own devices to sink or swim does NOT entail "giving up on him". I think this is what makes it hard for you because you feel you ought to do something, or you view it as giving up on him. It is not necessarily so, it is acknowledging that the time has come for him to be the responsible one for his future, not you.

 

Ester Maria, :grouphug: thank you so much for saying this. I needed to hear it and it helps to put the situation in perspective. During the summer, we had to take our daughter aside and remind her that her friends were enjoying significant free time because they had graduated from school. She still had studies to continue with. At that point, we turned over the communications with the school counselor and made our daughter responsible for all paperwork and testing for completion. If she failed to finish in time, it would be her responsibility to make arrangements for acquiring a GED. We were done with financing and arranging for her high school education. This seemed to be the motivation she needed.

We had friends with a son in a similar situation, albeit not homeschooled. At one point, they let him go as far as academics were concerned, making it crystal clear for him that it was his life and his duty. He ended up losing a year, almost giving up on school, then going back and having a poorer academic record and going through a period of a little personal mental hell within himself figuring out where he was and where he wanted to be, and then saying ENOUGH to himself. Right now, he is an excellent med school student - what looked like doom and gloom with no prospectives whatsoever ended up being exactly the kind of kick in the butt the boy needed to pull himself together, clear his head and succeed - and succed out of his own desire to succeed, not because mommy and daddy are pushing him and babysitting him while he studies. They did not give up on him, they just made him OWN his choices as truly HIS choices, rather than THEIRS. I am not saying the same approach would work for every child, maybe it would not for your child, but it is a possible choice which at least in several cases that I know of has worked. That takes an incredible amount of courage to stand by and not fix things. Wow.

 

Sorry you are having to go through this. :grouphug:

 

Thank you for the dose of hope, encouragement and firm resolve.

[swimmermom3]

you can put spyware on the computer and see everything he does on it. we have it. wish we didn't have to, but we do.

 

May I ask what spyware you used? Besides the moral issues of some of his activities, it's that even the "benign" gaming sites usually ending up doing something to the computer. Swimmer Dude and I are getting fairly slick at cleaning up the mess, but darn it, the kid puts our whole system at risk.

[swimmermom3]

amtmcm - Thank you for all of the links. I can certainly relate to the experiences expressed in the thread. Nan in Mass recommended The Crumpled Paper book a long time ago and I have had it in my cart. I think it is time to order it. I can't remember if it was in the threads or in the book reviews that mentioned kids who just don't try because in their mind that is different from failure. If you didn't try, then you could not have failed. That would describe my older two kids. I am anxious to read both books.

 

Paula, thanks so much for the support.:grouphug: When I come to the boards, I want to bring encouragement and good ideas for other board members. It bothers me that over the past year that I have shown up with more academic dilemmas, rather than academic delights.

[swimmermom3]

Hi Iris, I was just wondering how your dd was liking school.

 

Swimmer~

My first reaction when my kids behave poorly, academically and socially, is to let the consequences fall on them, but of course I never follow through. Taking an active role in your child's failures doesn't feel good. I wouldn't let a friend fail, even if they deserved it, why would I let my child fail. This is 100% parenting prerogative.

 

I get the part in bold emotionally, and am unsure how to argue against it intellectually; however, with my two older kids, I am feeling as though if we are always there for them, we will always need to be there for them. For the past couple of years, I feel as though I have had to eat, learn, and breath for these kids. Part of the problem is that I don't do any of that for myself. They both are adults or near adults; their needs are becoming very complex such as sorting out school options. I missed the PSAT deadline for my son this year. Not that he was ready, given his practice scores.:tongue_smilie:

 

Even if you devise a strategy for your son to catch up, he may fight you all the way to the finish. I know if it were me, I would put on my steely mom face and tuck all emotion away, knowing full well that my kids will throw emotion at me when I start pushing and taking charge of a situation they let get out of hand. In the teen years parents revisit the power struggles of the toddler years. Another thing to consider is the changing mother-son relationship. Sons need and want to shed their mothers. A strong father/grandfather/male influence may turn things around in a way you cannot as the mom.

 

Your point about the changing mother-son relationship is a good one and I can see it with my son. But if I am micromanaging every bit of his life, then it is hard for him to "shed" his mother. I think if I were in his position, I would be more than a bit irritated even though the situation is one of my own making. How does he grow without personal responsibility? This boy avoids it like the plague. Nothing is ever his fault. The only time I ever see him "man-up" is for Civil Air Patrol.

 

The teen years are difficult even with a "good" kid.

 

The webmail is another issue. I would talk with the online school. Our online school has discussions and board type posts where students respond to one another, but NO webmail between students that I know of; I'll be asking about this when DD wakes up.

 

When we discovered the situation, it was my daughter that reminded me to look a the handbook. At K12, she was unable to webmail other students. I can see my son's grades and his assignments. Unfortunately, webmailing allowed him to learn that kids at online schools are often all over the board as to where they are in the class. He thought this information was an okay to slide a bit.

 

I check up on DD weekly. I can log into her account and see the grade book for each of her classes. She too is addicted to the computer but somehow manages to get her school work done with good grades. Going outside......that is another issue.

 

 

 

Iris, how do you feel about the online environment? Do you feel it is as effective as when you were teaching your daughter with books and other media?

[elegantlion]

 

Paula, thanks so much for the support.:grouphug: When I come to the boards, I want to bring encouragement and good ideas for other board members. It bothers me that over the past year that I have shown up with more academic dilemmas, rather than academic delights.

 

I think it is important to talk through dilemmas. Obviously none of us are raising perfect children, and if it looked that way it might mis-represent this board. Many of these types of conversations have been helpful to me as the parent of an only child.

 

It all circles around, you have been supportive of me in so many ways. This is a community and I have seen time and time again those who have been encouraged come back to encourage others. I'm know you know that.

 

I believe perfect children are only seen in some blogs and the occasional granparents' eye.:D

[swimmermom3]

I think it is important to talk through dilemmas. Obviously none of us are raising perfect children, and if it looked that way it might mis-represent this board. Many of these types of conversations have been helpful to me as the parent of an only child.

 

It all circles around, you have been supportive of me in so many ways. This is a community and I have seen time and time again those who have been encouraged come back to encourage others. I'm know you know that.

 

I believe perfect children are only seen in some blogs and the occasional granparents' eye.:D

 

I just want to say "thank you so much" to all of you who have posted here and emailed and pm'd me. I owe so many of you coffee, wine, chocolate, and a numerous hugs. Know that each of you are in my heart and have my gratitude.:grouphug:

[Nan in Mass]

I don't have any advice for you. Hugs hugs and more hugs.

 

Just some random thoughts...

 

Sometimes not doing something is the thing that you are doing. It can be a hard something, something that takes all your energy. I have found, the times I had to do it, that it was the hardest thing I have ever done. I have no idea whether doing something or not doing something is the right thing to do in this particular case, but I didn't want you to think that deliberately not doing something is neglect or inattention.

 

I think that even though you as the mother feel like you are not putting in the same amount of energy into the youngest, I think often times that the youngest actually feels like everyone is watching his every move and putting way too much energy into him, including Mum. That makes him be extra nasty to Mum when he thinks he is being managed or watched, because you are one of the more influenceable people in his life, someone he knows won't abandon him if he is impolite and says how he feels, and he wants to discourage you. At least, this is the way my own youngest feels.

 

As to why your family - you are right. It is better just not to go there. Or if you find can't do that, then tell yourself a made-up, fake reason like that these children were born to you because they are particulalry difficult and need the particular parenting that you can provide, or that you got these children because you would learn the most from them, or something like that. Anything that will make your mind stop thinking why.

 

When we had our first family disaster, the bus driver in our town, who has had a ton of troubles of her own, told me that parenting is very hard and that parenting a teenager forces you to learn what unconditional love is. That saved me from making many mistakes. And it comforted me to know that I wasn't alone, that I wasn't the only one who had done their best and had their best turn out not be enough to avoid bad things from happening.

 

Nan

[AnitaMcC]

We are in the same situation here with Ds#1.

 

He is doing cyber school this year (11th grade). He is doing three classes each semester (block schedule). He failed all three of his classes the first quarter. The school is asking what is going on and I don't have answers.

 

Dh and I are keeping on Ds's case about it and all it is doing is making us all miserable. But at the same time Dh and I are feeling like if we do nothing... then we are the ones who are failing. I keep asking myself where did I go wrong?

 

End of 8th grade he scored a 1600 on the SAT. We offered to let him do college in place of high school because he felt that doing high school was "redundant". But he didn't even try to get the work done... and we weren't requiring him to do "homework", only told him to do exams for most of his subjects (only English did we insist on lots of homework as that is his weakest subject).

 

Ds could have graduated high school in two years!!!!! He could have attended college full time starting in 9th grade. We held off and told Ds that before we paid out $$$$ for the classes, he first needed to prove to us that he could be independent and successful with his school work. He didn't do it...

 

Now instead of graduating two years early, he will be at least a half year behind... if not a full year. And his twin sister is going to graduate a full year early and has already applied to DePaul University in Chicago. It was her that I had doubts about on going to university since her plan is to be a professional metal rock band musician-LOL. She is wanting to major in sound engineering.

 

We know he is capable, and he says he knows that he needs education beyond high school. But he sure isn't on that path.

[GinaPagnato]

No advice to add to what you've gotten already. Just :grouphug:

And, blech, this parenting thing can be a real drag sometimes.

[angel marie]

the spyware is spector pro. is is great spyware. we have it on our computers out of necessity unfortunately for our teens. they know it is on there. i check the computers at nite to make sure the correct choices were made etc... it records everything. they cannot find the program on the computer. there is a secret code to pull it up. it records each screen, every keystroke, download, emails, instant messages, fb, sites visited etc... and time and date. it has really helped us get a handle of the computers. we also have rules for computers like not allowed in their rooms, in my room at certain time at nite etc. hope this info helps.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just an off the wall question, but isn't this your kid who was the competitive swimmer for so many years? Could it be that he's partly reacting to the loss of physical outlet in a time of the year that normally would have been a heavy practice time?

Oddly, I find that my teen is just as "lazy" when he's had too much time without exertion as when he's totally worn out.

[Nan in Mass]

I have found the same thing about excersize. My boys talk about it themselves. One of mine had a hard time switching from elite athlete to ordinary person when his gymnastics career ended. It was quite an adjustment and required some serious refocusing, not just of the physical energy kind. That is another thing to watch for.

 

Nan

[Teachin'Mine]

I think it is important to talk through dilemmas. Obviously none of us are raising perfect children, and if it looked that way it might mis-represent this board. Many of these types of conversations have been helpful to me as the parent of an only child.

 

It all circles around, you have been supportive of me in so many ways. This is a community and I have seen time and time again those who have been encouraged come back to encourage others. I'm know you know that.

 

I believe perfect children are only seen in some blogs and the occasional granparents' eye.:D

 

What Paula said is so true! I find these threads really helpful as we can all relate to the issues to one degree or another. It's always encouraging to know that we're not alone, and the advice of the hive is invaluable. :001_smile:

[memphispeg]

Online coursework did not work for us. Too much glancing at fb or tmz during paper writing time. I abandoned it all v. quickly. Dd writes out her assignments on paper and gives them to me.

In reality though, isn't all this on-line time wasting temptation just like all the other choices a teen has to make? I personally, do not know how to give advice on this particular temptation to teens. They may have to work thru it all themselves, understand the choice they make when they play on-line rather than working. Either they do it in high school or, they'll have to work thru it in college.

Re: stopping swimming. I found that having dd forego ballet has not been positive, too much excess physical energy and none of the social interaction during classes has made her antsy. Wish I could send her. But $$ won't allow it.

[QuirkyKapers]

:grouphug: Don't have any advice. Just hugs as you try and figure out what to do. Parenting stinks sometimes huh?

[swimmermom3]

Sebastian and Nan, this is my oldest son who is 16. It is the youngest one who was the serious competitive swimmer and life was horrible after he quit. He went to his room and did not come out for several months until he started sailing. Of all three kids, he is the one who is most driven.

 

The 16 yo has done competitive swimming and actually has returned to it, but he has never really experienced much success at it, primarily because he seldom finishes a workout. He has ran track for years as well, but again, he believes that a person is born with skill and that effort is not a factor. He will try something and if he is not good at it immediately, he will give it up.

 

Both boys are short and slight and as they get older, this has made sports a bit more difficult. The difference between the two is that the youngest one has confidence for two, while the oldest one has none.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Ah.

 

A shirt I saw this summer was one that I wanted to get for all of my kids. "Hard work beats talent when talent hardly works."

 

It is trite and a little simplistic. Yet I've seen it borne out many times. When you look at people who have had great success in their lives, many of them achieved success as a result of picking themselves up after tremendous, catastrophic failure.

 

But I'm guessing that you know that already.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Sebastian (a lady)

[swimmermom3]

Ah.

 

A shirt I saw this summer was one that I wanted to get for all of my kids. "Hard work beats talent when talent hardly works."

 

It is trite and a little simplistic. Yet I've seen it borne out many times. When you look at people who have had great success in their lives, many of them achieved success as a result of picking themselves up after tremendous, catastrophic failure.

 

But I'm guessing that you know that already.

 

:tongue_smilie:Love the t-shirt. One of the best books for raising kids that I have read is by Carol Dwek. Ignore the rather awkward self-help title. Dwek is a Stanford psychologist who has done years of research. I regret that I did not read the book until my kids were older because I certainly would have changed how I talked to them. I had bought into the whole "build their self-esteem by praising their gifts" mentality. Bad plan. Effort is what you want to praise and encourage because it is something kids can control, unlike talents. We have seen this play out in swimming. One of the most talented high school swimmers we have seen received only one scholarship offer. With the types of records he set, he should have been able to go anywhere he wanted, but his reputation for being a slacker preceded him. Fellow teammates with less innate talent but a much stronger work ethic received substantially better packages than he did. It was a rude awakening.

[Mommyfaithe]

Boys are different from girls. Boys are weird. They are difficult to homeschool. There....I said it.

 

Don't try to overanalyze what "you" have done. This is about what HE is going to do, like it or not. He has to graduuate High School. He has to do well in his studies. He has to FOCUS and FINISH.

He has to apologize for being a butt head to you and for engaging in being a butt head to this girl. (YEAH...I know...the girl is being stupid too...but that is her parents problem.)

 

He does not have to have e-mail relationships....

He does not have to have the privelidge of going online

He does not have to be allowed to go ANYWHERE until he is up to date and getting passing grades.

 

Be calm. Be cool. Be matter of fact.

Maybe he does need family counseling. Having a depressed sibling is awful. Having an ill sibling effects all the kids...especially because, like it or not, our attention (rightfully) is on the sick one.

 

It is really hard being the Mom of a teenage boy. They are complicated and you don't have the experience of being one. Everyone always talks about hormonal girls....but BOYS!!!! AHHHHHHH!!!!! And I have 4 of them! :D

 

Also, don't blame yourself. This is his doing, and he needs to rectify the situation. You can help, but you can't do it for him. Try to stay strong and positive. I am rooting for you.....and your son.

 

Faithe

[Mommyfaithe]

I have found the same thing about excersize. My boys talk about it themselves. One of mine had a hard time switching from elite athlete to ordinary person when his gymnastics career ended. It was quite an adjustment and required some serious refocusing, not just of the physical energy kind. That is another thing to watch for.

 

Nan

 

Oh Boy, is this true. My son is still not ok after almost 18 months. He isn't angry anymore...but oh, so sad sometimes...at what might have been....sigh

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:tongue_smilie:Love the t-shirt. One of the best books for raising kids that I have read is by Carol Dwek. Ignore the rather awkward self-help title. Dwek is a Stanford psychologist who has done years of research. I regret that I did not read the book until my kids were older because I certainly would have changed how I talked to them. I had bought into the whole "build their self-esteem by praising their gifts" mentality. Bad plan. Effort is what you want to praise and encourage because it is something kids can control, unlike talents. We have seen this play out in swimming. One of the most talented high school swimmers we have seen received only one scholarship offer. With the types of records he set, he should have been able to go anywhere he wanted, but his reputation for being a slacker preceded him. Fellow teammates with less innate talent but a much stronger work ethic received substantially better packages than he did. It was a rude awakening.

 

Thanks for the reminder about this book. I read an article by her a while back but had forgotten about the book.

 

I'm not totally sure how you convey to a teen, especially a teen boy, that effort, attitude, and willingness to work ones hind end off really do get noticed and rewarded. Not all the time. Not always to the highest extent. But enough. And as you mentioned, being the smart, fast, talented kid who is lazy gets noticed too.

[Colleen in NS]

:tongue_smilie:Love the t-shirt. One of the best books for raising kids that I have read is by Carol Dwek. Ignore the rather awkward self-help title. Dwek is a Stanford psychologist who has done years of research. I regret that I did not read the book until my kids were older because I certainly would have changed how I talked to them. I had bought into the whole "build their self-esteem by praising their gifts" mentality. Bad plan. Effort is what you want to praise and encourage because it is something kids can control, unlike talents. We have seen this play out in swimming. One of the most talented high school swimmers we have seen received only one scholarship offer. With the types of records he set, he should have been able to go anywhere he wanted, but his reputation for being a slacker preceded him. Fellow teammates with less innate talent but a much stronger work ethic received substantially better packages than he did. It was a rude awakening.

 

Thanks for the book recommendation; it's now on hold at my library. The part I bolded above is what caught my eye enough to search for this book.

[Nan in Mass]

There was a discussion about this on the accelerated board awhile back. I tried to find it for you but couldn't seem to hit on the right search term. Someone posted an article about the dangers of praise, or at least the wrong sort of praise, how it can make a child afraid to try hard things, and how praising effort rather than success is a better approach. I think you have to be cautious with praising effort, too, because the world tends to reward success, not effort, and you don't want to mislead your child about how the adult world works, but it is still something to be considered, especially if you can manage to make your home an emotionally safe place, distinctly different from the outside world. If you can do that, then saying "we're proud of you for trying" is a good thing, something that won't discourage your perfectionist from trying something hard. (I still define home that way - as a place where trying counts and nobody yells at you for misjudgements or mistakes.)

 

Lisa - I've been thinking about your problem. My husband grew up one of four brothers. They tried everything, just about, as teenagers, but they still grew up to be good men. He always reminds me that often it is better not to make too big a deal out of things. As one of three sisters who pretty much never did anything wrong, I tend to over-react. He reminds me that boys learn by trying things, and that it is often sufficient just to tell them that they have made a mistake, point out why, and leave it at that, without going to any great effort to prevent them from doing it again. They will only do it again if it is something that is an irresistible (irresistable?) temptation. Perhaps in your situation, what you really need to do is figure out whether this is an irresistible temptation or not. If not, perhaps you could just say something along the lines of "what on earth made you think this was an acceptable thing to do?" and find a way for him to fix it (those apologies were a good idea) and then pretend it didn't happen? Sometimes, if you don't leave them a chance to try again, they don't really learn the lesson that they should have. It also shows that you don't have confidence in them. Of course, if it is an irresistible temptation, then you have to help them to overcome the problem. In that case, not going to a lot of effort to keep him from "failing" would be a very bad idea. Perhaps that is your answer for when it is ok to let him fail and when it is important to make every effort to help them. There are a number of temptations in the event and it might be that not all of them are irresistible and he can be left to deal with some of them himself and just needs help with one. (If this doesn't make sense, just ignore it. These things are tricky.)

 

Nan

[swimmermom3]

Thanks for the book recommendation; it's now on hold at my library. The part I bolded above is what caught my eye enough to search for this book.

 

Colleen, my dd's counselor originally gave us the article which I believe is from Psychology Today. It really shook me. We had spent years saying, "You are smart enough, gifted enough..." It haunts me to a certain extent because now I realize that the older two kids sort of hold a belief that if the gift doesn't show up then there is nothing to be done; there is nothing they can do. Now, we discuss effort; we compliment effort. It is a long, slow process in turning things around.

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the book.

 

Update: My 16 yo has just completed his application for the Coast Guard. Even though he is young, they won't talk to him without the application. We are hoping this lights a fire for him.

 

Also, does anyone else have children who if they work for 20 minutes at the beginning of a 6 hour period of time and for 20 minutes at the end of those six hours with nothing but messing around in between, firmly believe that they have worked really, really hard for all 6 hours?:tongue_smilie:

[Nan in Mass]

Also, does anyone else have children who if they work for 20 minutes at the beginning of a 6 hour period of time and for 20 minutes at the end of those six hours with nothing but messing around in between, firmly believe that they have worked really, really hard for all 6 hours?:tongue_smilie:

 

Groan...

[swimmermom3]

Lisa - I've been thinking about your problem. My husband grew up one of four brothers. They tried everything, just about, as teenagers, but they still grew up to be good men. He always reminds me that often it is better not to make too big a deal out of things. As one of three sisters who pretty much never did anything wrong, I tend to over-react. He reminds me that boys learn by trying things, and that it is often sufficient just to tell them that they have made a mistake, point out why, and leave it at that, without going to any great effort to prevent them from doing it again. They will only do it again if it is something that is an irresistible (irresistable?) temptation. Perhaps in your situation, what you really need to do is figure out whether this is an irresistible temptation or not. If not, perhaps you could just say something along the lines of "what on earth made you think this was an acceptable thing to do?" and find a way for him to fix it (those apologies were a good idea) and then pretend it didn't happen? Sometimes, if you don't leave them a chance to try again, they don't really learn the lesson that they should have. It also shows that you don't have confidence in them. Of course, if it is an irresistible temptation, then you have to help them to overcome the problem. In that case, not going to a lot of effort to keep him from "failing" would be a very bad idea. Perhaps that is your answer for when it is ok to let him fail and when it is important to make every effort to help them. There are a number of temptations in the event and it might be that not all of them are irresistible and he can be left to deal with some of them himself and just needs help with one. (If this doesn't make sense, just ignore it. These things are tricky.)

 

Nan

 

Nan, what you say makes a lot of sense. It is the sorting out what to respond to that gets me. I don't expect my kids to be saintly; their parents certainly weren't. My dh had a set of rules for himself in high school: go to class, get good grades, be respectful at home, and party like a wild man in the off hours. Fortunately, he and his buddies were bright enough to not do anything incredibly stupid since they lived in a foreign country.

 

I should probably go find ds since we just had another explosion. His brother went to get on the computer and ds rushed over to close out his school account, but not before I saw yet again dozens and dozens of webmails from the young lady at the school. She lives in town, but they have not yet met. They really want to.:tongue_smilie: Right. In one webmail she asked him where she would live if she became "preggers," since her aunt would kick her out. Gulp! Bang head against wall. She is a year younger than ds, but is a freshman since she failed all of her core classes last year.

[Nan in Mass]

Ak!

[AnitaMcC]

Also, does anyone else have children who if they work for 20 minutes at the beginning of a 6 hour period of time and for 20 minutes at the end of those six hours with nothing but messing around in between, firmly believe that they have worked really, really hard for all 6 hours?:tongue_smilie:

 

 

Yes!!!!!!! This is my Ds#1.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I was thinking about the whole praise thing tonight. I realized that I praise my kids on occasion but it is usually more related to character than achievement. Character can include effort but not necessarily.

[swimmermom3]

I was thinking about the whole praise thing tonight. I realized that I praise my kids on occasion but it is usually more related to character than achievement. Character can include effort but not necessarily.

 

Jean, I think you just gave me an "Oh duh" moment. Character. That is something we apparently need to discuss a lot more.

[lisabees]

:grouphug: to you, Lisa.

 

How many times have we discussed "balance" on this board? Usually, the discussions are about academic and intellectual freedoms. As always, the comfort zone depends on a person's personality, history and baggage. This is no different. How do we guide kids into being resilient, self-sufficient problem solvers with a strong work ethic? How do we know the best balance between letting our kids fail and lending them a hand? For each family, this would certainly look different. I am not sure there is an answer that we could give for your family.

 

I am frequently heard saying that I wish I could do my first born over again. Someone pointed out that I already have, when I had the other three (who are so much easier in all ways). I wish I had given ds18 difficult chores and forced him to contribute more to the family. I wish I hadn't caved when he put up a fight. I wish that I forced him to get a job at Wendy's, rather than his cozy "web design" business. I wish my husband contributed more to the parenting. I wish ds was born with a different personality. While I take on much of the responsibility, I do not take all. He was born stubborn and resistant to any kind of control. Because of this, I naturally asked less of him. Like I said, I wish I could have a do-over!

 

I worry too, Lisa, about our boys. I fear my kid is going to be living in the basement with no job. He has no time management; no self control with going to sleep at night; no motivation to do the things that must be done versus the things he just wants done. Everything has been easy for him. I sometimes joke that I should have created struggles in my kids' lives on purpose. Character building, don't ya know?

 

Ds will graduate soon. Of course, I originally played a huge role in the college process. That is, until a few months ago. He hated the nagging and asked me to stop. So, I did. No applications have been filled out. No SAT subject tests have been taken. For the first time ever, he has two B- on his report card. This is how I am letting ds "fall". He is self selecting which schools will accept him. He is also decreasing his chances of good enough merit aid. I will not let him fall hard enough where he doesn't go to college. I need him out. He needs to be out. He is going to be sorely disappointed in his choices, though.

 

I have a good kid. He just needs life to humble him. I just hope it doesn't take too long. And I hope it doesn't have too many horrible consequences.

 

Lisa, I cannot offer too much advice, as we are going through such parallel situations. I can offer two bits, though. One, try to get rid of the anger in your heart. Try to see him like others see him. Likely, he is combative with you. You are the enemy. And he is yours. Try to see him with a calm, peaceful heart. Don't let him reduce you to his level. The next is something my husband discovered after having (another) long talk with ds recently. Dh was shocked to learn that ds has little self-confidence. For such an arrogant chap, this was surprising. He is scared by who he is and how he is going to deal with this world. He is scared of asking out girls, for fear of rejection and not believing he would be a good boyfriend. He is trying so hard to figure out who he is. He has been told over and over again (by us) that he will not be successful if he lacks motivation, time management, and a strong work ethic. Guess who now believes he will never be successful? Sigh. When it is deserving, I swear to be positive rather than destructive.

 

You can use this advice whether you let your ds fall completely or just a little bit. Or if you decide to hold his hand throughout the entire process.

 

And remember - good kids make bad decisions. I wouldn't be overly concerned about what he and the girl are writing to each other, but rather ask yourself "Why?"

 

Hugs to you, my friend.

Edited November 17, 2011 by lisabees
added "just wants done"

[lisabees]

 

Also, does anyone else have children who if they work for 20 minutes at the beginning of a 6 hour period of time and for 20 minutes at the end of those six hours with nothing but messing around in between, firmly believe that they have worked really, really hard for all 6 hours?:tongue_smilie:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Ds says that he is too busy to do everything. Too busy to finish papers, study for tests or get a job. But, he's never too busy to take his daily nap. :glare:

[Colleen in NS]

We had spent years saying, "You are smart enough, gifted enough..." It haunts me to a certain extent because now I realize that the older two kids sort of hold a belief that if the gift doesn't show up then there is nothing to be done; there is nothing they can do.

 

I will try to remember to come back and post after I read the book.

 

Now that you are putting this stuff into words, I realize that I spent earlier years telling my kids these kinds of things, too. I guess it's because it was in parenting books I was reading at the time? After awhile, I realized it wasn't working the way books said it would. So I put that mentality aside and concentrated on praising accomplishments/effort, like you mentioned earlier. In a way, this is somewhat easier to do within the kind of education we are doing (the skills-learning I require of them - grammar, etc.), although it's also harder because I feel like Monster-Mom so much of the time these days.

 

I'm not even sure what "gifts" are anymore. I just know what my kids can do in terms of "skills," and what next skill-set I plan out for them to master. I also know what my kids *enjoy* doing, so in their free time they do those things (ds is totally into computer programming at the moment, and dd likes to write stories/poems). Are they gifted? I have no clue.

 

OK, it also just struck me that I myself spent a few years believing what you say your kids believe right now - that if a gift doesn't show up then there is nothing they can do. It's sort of a dismal way to live, isn't it. Hopeless, almost. But, now I don't believe it's actually TRUE. There is plenty that people can do, even if "gifts" don't hit you over the head. This is probably part of what drives me to be the Monster-Mom right now. :D If there is anything I've learned from doing education this way and esp. reading these boards, it's that there is a HUGE world of variety out there that I never knew about. I never knew that if I had only had a decent education in academic skills, the world would have been much more open to me. I was told several times in my late teens/early 20s that I had a "gift for dance." Well, I never even had any dance training in my younger years - I just happened to get involved with early adult dance/dramatic dance/creative movement teams, and learned a few things and had fun. I did take a 3.5 month course one time in performing arts (met my husband there, so that was a bonus!), and worked in performing arts for another year after that, but then I never did anything with it again. And I really was left with a feeling of, "So, I guess my gifted life is over, I'll just work in office jobs until we start a family." And then I read about the interesting and varied lives of Moms here on the boards and realize there is so much more out there.

 

Lost my train of thought....Oh, yes, so I don't think it's TRUE that there is nothing your kids can do, even though some gift isn't presenting itself right now. I guess you have to somehow make them understand that, though, don't you.

 

:grouphug:

 

I should probably go find ds since we just had another explosion. His brother went to get on the computer and ds rushed over to close out his school account, but not before I saw yet again dozens and dozens of webmails from the young lady at the school. She lives in town, but they have not yet met. They really want to.:tongue_smilie: Right. In one webmail she asked him where she would live if she became "preggers," since her aunt would kick her out. Gulp! Bang head against wall. She is a year younger than ds, but is a freshman since she failed all of her core classes last year.

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: as you carry on mothering!!

[Ester Maria]

I'm not even sure what "gifts" are anymore. I just know what my kids can do in terms of "skills," and what next skill-set I plan out for them to master. I also know what my kids *enjoy* doing, so in their free time they do those things (ds is totally into computer programming at the moment, and dd likes to write stories/poems). Are they gifted? I have no clue.

That's a GREAT attitude, IMO.

 

The only thing which is the ultimate arbiter of anything in life is *concrete accomplishment*, not any kind of vague, real or imaginary, *potential*. I think it does a HUGE disservice to our children to focus on that real or imaginary potential (especially if "justified" by IQ tests or stuff of the kind :lol:) and then dwell on it, excuse behaviors based on it, etc. I say to hell with that, what matters is concrete accomplishment, and that is what should be praised along with effort AND that is what should be the FRAME OF REFERENCE.

 

I never ask parents if their child is "gifted", "average" or whatever - I ask them what, concretely, HAVE THEY DONE or ARE THEY DOING, and that gives the best picture of all, the most accurate one.

Meet them where they are and take it from there, too much philosophy over the whole "gifts" thing is pointless, IMO.

 

(I am in a "combative" mood today, I hope I do not sound too much so. :lol:)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

That's a GREAT attitude, IMO.

 

The only thing which is the ultimate arbiter of anything in life is *concrete accomplishment*, not any kind of vague, real or imaginary, *potential*. I think it does a HUGE disservice to our children to focus on that real or imaginary potential (especially if "justified" by IQ tests or stuff of the kind :lol:) and then dwell on it, excuse behaviors based on it, etc. I say to hell with that, what matters is concrete accomplishment, and that is what should be praised along with effort AND that is what should be the FRAME OF REFERENCE.

 

I never ask parents if their child is "gifted", "average" or whatever - I ask them what, concretely, HAVE THEY DONE or ARE THEY DOING, and that gives the best picture of all, the most accurate one.

Meet them where they are and take it from there, too much philosophy over the whole "gifts" thing is pointless, IMO.

 

(I am in a "combative" mood today, I hope I do not sound too much so. :lol:)

 

I am laughing out loud at your last sentence! Because I was just noticing that you've used the word "hell" at least twice on the boards this afternoon. :lol:

[Ester Maria]

I am laughing out loud at your last sentence! Because I was just noticing that you've used the word "hell" at least twice on the boards this afternoon. :lol:

There are days when I feel like I am trapped in the mental dynamic of a five year old. I have such a nice thought, but it develops itself too fast for me to grasp it, so I get frustrated with it and try to catch some of it, and then I urgently type and type and type (or, if in talking, I speeeeeed it a little :D), and I get this combative attitude because I am wrestling with the thought - but really in good humor! - and trying to type it all out before I lose it forever, so I tend not to watch my language so much or express myself poorly. And THEN, instead of rereading it and editing it to sound like a normal adult, I get a "aha!!!" moment and want to share it and then I post it without reading, so the "hell" remains there. A mix of something totally combative and totally childish, I know. :lol:

Edited November 17, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Colleen in NS]

I am laughing out loud at your last sentence! Because I was just noticing that you've used the word "hell" at least twice on the boards this afternoon. :lol:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

EM, thanks for the encouragement, too.