Another Science Thread. How Important is it?

[happyhomemaker25]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. We do Science but it sometimes gets put aside for more grammar, literature, and/or math study. My husband and I started talking about our high school and early college experiences and I questioned some of my high school friends.

Was science really important in high school as far as your college experience and future career? I went to a public college prep school and had some friends who went to a big private college prep school in the same town. We kind of all agreed that while high school science introduced us to science our college science classes were the real deal. Even my friends who are now in science related career fields say that our advanced math classes in high school were much more essential to college and career than high school science.

I ask this because so many people in the home school and public school community have said that many home school science courses for high school are seriously lacking.

We love doing science here, but more for fun. My 14 and 11 year old daughters don't do any in depth science and I do focus more on math, grammar, and writing skills with them. Sometimes I worry that they won't be prepared, but then I think if I am teaching them to learn and giving them the skills to think and study they will do fine catching up in college. The first two years are so remedial anyway. The science classes I took my first two years were nothing more than basic science courses as far as I was concerned. Neither of my girls has expressed a strong interest in science anyway beyond enjoying it.

Those are just my rambling thoughts. What does the Hive say?

[elfgivas]

we may be in the minority here, but for us science is critical....

 

we didn't start formal, textbook science until grade 7, but before that did lots of supercharged science, david attenborough (as in every single day), nature walks, raising moths, chickens, pressing and naming wildflowers, studying the stars, etc, etc.

 

for us, this is our world and understanding it as best we can is crucial.

 

grammar, on the other hand, we simply pretty much left alone until we started latin. (we did singapore grammar which gave them the basic tools, and played around with things like mad libs). it is more pain than joy, whereas science can be full of joy and wonder....

 

fwiw,

ann

[regentrude]

Was science really important in high school as far as your college experience and future career?

 

Absolutely essential! I have a PhD in theoretical physics.

 

I grew up in Germany where science education in schools is much stronger: biology beginning in 5th, physics in 6th, chemistry in 7th, all taken concurrently through high school. I studied physics at the university, and even with this foundation and two years of calculus in high school, had a hard time my first semester.

 

Here in the US, I am an instructor at a 4 year university and teach introductory physics courses. Those courses are not just taken by physics majors: all science and engineering majors must take calculus based physics; all biology majors, premeds, veterinarians must take at least algebra/trig based physics. They also have to take rigorous biology and chemistry courses.

 

Having a weak science background from high school severely limits a student's options for possible careers, because university science classes are hard. Skimping on science closes doors and limits the choice the kids have for what they want to do with their lives (I mentioned veterinarian specifically, because often parents and students do not think that certain majors require much sciences)

 

Career aspects aside: I believe that every educated person should know enough science to understand the basics of how the world works. Every person has to make decisions in life where a science understanding is crucial. I am thinking of things like: how does the body work? How do antibiotics work, why can't I take them for a cold, why must I finish my course? How do vaccines work? How does a microwave works? Can heating my water bottle really create dioxins as claimed on the internet? (no, it can't) Why does the moon not fall down? What is CO and why can it be dangerous? Why should I not mix certain household cleaners? I can think of many many more questions which arise for average people in daily life where a science understanding is important.

And then there are more global issues: how can a voter make an informed choice about global warming, fracking, ecology, power plants without the foundation of a solid science education?

 

but then I think if I am teaching them to learn and giving them the skills to think and study they will do fine catching up in college. The first two years are so remedial anyway. The science classes I took my first two years were nothing more than basic science courses as far as I was concerned.

That is not true for many universities. At the school where I teach, students will, during their first two years, take calculus, calculus based physics, and chemistry which are hard, time consuming classes. There is nothing remedial about them. OK, students who previously have taken AP physics or chemistry will find that they know some of the material, but by no means everything.

I do not think you can generalize your experience.

Edited November 12, 2011 by regentrude

[Friederike in Persia]

As long as they get enough "general science" knowledge they should be fine, even if they should choose to study it later on at college level.

I never took much science at school (went to school in Germany, where you get to choose to a degree), but then majored in biology at an Englisch university. Even though I had some catching up to do I did just fine.

[happyhomemaker25]

Absolutely essential! I have a PhD in theoretical physics.

 

I grew up in Germany where science education in schools is much stronger: biology beginning in 5th, physics in 6th, chemistry in 7th, all taken concurrently through high school. I studied physics at the university, and even with this foundation and two years of calculus in high school, had a hard time my first semester.

 

Here in the US, I am an instructor at a 4 year university and teach introductory physics courses. Those courses are not just taken by physics majors: all science and engineering majors must take calculus based physics; all biology majors, premeds, veterinarians must take at least algebra/trig based physics. They also have to take rigorous biology and chemistry courses.

 

Having a weak science background form high school severely limits a student's options for possible careers, because university science classes are hard. Skimping on science closes doors and limits the choice the kids have for what they want to do with their lives (I mentioned veterinarian specifically, because often parents and students do not think that certain majors require much sciences)

 

Career aspects aside: I believe that every educated person should know enough science to understand the basics of how the world works. Every person has to make decisions in life where a science understanding is crucial. I am thinking of things like: how does the body work? How do antibiotics work, why can't I take them for a cold, why must I finish my course? How do vaccines work? How does a microwave works? Can heating my water bottle really create dioxins as claimed on the internet? (no, it can't) Why does the moon not fall down? What is CO and why can it be dangerous? Why should I not mix certain household cleaners? I can think of many many more questions which arise for average people in daily life where a science understanding is important.

And then there are more global issues: how can a voter make an informed choice about global warming, fracking, ecology, power plants without the foundation of a solid science education?

 

Thank you for this answer. I am thinking about some online courses or a science intensive co-op for high school. I totally agree with your last two paragraphs. Just working through it with friends who have science related careers makes it seem like as long as they are introduced to science and study science in highschool they'll be ok. If they had more interest in medicine or some other science field I'd probably be thinking more about it. One of my boys has a lot of potential in this area and I will probably be more vigorous with him. It kind of seems like we ignore science according to my post, but we really do not. We do a lot of science readings and experiments just not really intensive science study.

[regentrude]

As long as they get enough "general science" knowledge they should be fine, even if they should choose to study it later on at college level.

I never took much science at school (went to school in Germany, where you get to choose to a degree), but then majored in biology at an Englisch university. Even though I had some catching up to do I did just fine.

 

Friederike,

if you went to school in Germany, your science education would have been much better than the average US public school, even if you got to drop a science during the Oberstufe and had to take only one Leistungskurs. Last I checked curricula, everybody had to take all three sciences at least for a few years. Here, I encounter students who never had any physics in their lives. It really is no comparison.

[MamaSheep]

...

Career aspects aside: I believe that every educated person should know enough science to understand the basics of how the world works. Every person has to make decisions in life where a science understanding is crucial. I am thinking of things like: how does the body work? How do antibiotics work, why can't I take them for a cold, why must I finish my course? How do vaccines work? How does a microwave works? Can heating my water bottle really create dioxins as claimed on the internet? (no, it can't) Why does the moon not fall down? What is CO and why can it be dangerous? Why should I not mix certain household cleaners? I can think of many many more questions which arise for average people in daily life where a science understanding is important.

And then there are more global issues: how can a voter make an informed choice about global warming, fracking, ecology, power plants without the foundation of a solid science education?...

 

 

This is my primary motivation for making sure my kids get taught science. for me, the goal isn't so much college and career, but life. I think by the end of high school people should have a firm grounding in the basics of "how stuff works" just in order to be a competent, productive member of society. A basic understanding of economics would have helped a large portion of the world citizenry in recent years, for example. And over the course of the last 14 autistic years for our family I've met a disturbing number of parents who don't have enough basic scientific understanding to intelligently evaluate autism "treatments" well enough not to get scammed.

 

That said, the "Advanced Biology" class (which focused on human physiology) I took in high school came in handy during my art studies in college, especially during one life drawing class in which the mid-term exam was a blank piece of paper on which we were to accurately draw and label all the bones in the human skeleton, and the final exam was the same, except with the addition of the major muscle groups. You never know when knowledge will come in handy, so I say the more, the better.

[happyhomemaker25]

Friederike,

if you went to school in Germany, your science education would have been much better than the average US public school, even if you got to drop a science during the Oberstufe and had to take only one Leistungskurs. Last I checked curricula, everybody had to take all three sciences at least for a few years. Here, I encounter students who never had any physics in their lives. It really is no comparison.

 

We follow the WTM science rotation so even my elem kids have been introduced to Physics. I'm just trying to make sure they won't be totally out of the loop in college. It's just not a big part of our day or even our week. We plod through it slowly and enjoy it. I do want it to be a bit more intensive in high school though. I took Physics in high school and the only think I remember is we had to make our own roller coasters. My friend and I made ours out of candy. It flopped but it was a great example of why we need Physics. The teacher actually loved it and gave us an "A" because he got so much teaching material out of it. LOL

I keep refreshing this page because these responses are so wonderful. Thanks!

Another question kind of a spin off, if my kids have great study skills and critical thinking skills, an introduction to high school sciences and advanced math prep how hard will college be for them? I'm thinking the first year is kind of hard for everyone, but they should be able to keep up and acclimate, right?

[Night Elf]

Hmm.. my answer doesn't really fit the classical educational theme. I don't think science is all that. We did very little in the years leading up to high school. I never found a program that was good enough to finish. And then the other unpopular fact is that my family uses a traditional type of school that uses the same textbooks as b&m schools. My ds15 is finishing up Biology right now. He's working on the final research paper. He has a very strong A in the class because it just really wasn't that difficult. Writing essay questions and the 2 research papers were the worst part. Oh, and we didn't do dissection. It surprised me but our program said the transcript just says Biology and it's not a big deal. My oldest dd's transcript has no mention of her lab work either and her transcript comes from a public high school.

 

College biology was almost as easy. I took notes during the lecture, memorized the information and passed the tests with As and Bs. I found a lab partner who did all the dissecting and I did all the written work. I didn't lay an eye on any yucky dissection in either semester. I didn't need any other science in college.

 

My children will do the typical run of high school classes, all the way through physics, which I didn't do in high school. DH knows lots about math and science so I expect he'll be the one to help them if we reach a rough spot.

[Lisbeth]

For us it's a non-negotiable essential.

[Joanne]

I think that science is critical for any student whose goals involve traditional undergraduate studies.

 

I see a lack of needed foundational science in many homeschooled kids.

[gardenmom5]

I have four adult children, I required all of them to do physics, chemistry, and bio. in high school. I think it is necessary for basic understanding of many things.

[Night Elf]

That would be me. :blush:

 

I tried in high school but dropped out fairly quickly. That science is simply not in my arsenal of talents. People have different talents. I do not believe that everyone will "get" every subject. I also think that people who are very into their favorite subject think that everyone could love it as well if they could just experience it in a certain way. I am obviously an ignorant person when it comes to science. I'm thinking of that list of questions that Regentrude posted. Many of those have never occurred to me to wonder about. Many are questions that can be answered by other people I trust, like doctors. The internet is also a wonderful place to get answers. But on my own, just for the sake of knowing, I really have no inclination to truly understand how the body works, how antibiotics or vaccines work, or a microwave. I also imagine that others could list a hundred more things that voters should know before voting. That would be pretty impressive if all voters really understood all that information. We truly would be a highly educated population indeed. Nope, I'm doing fairly well with what I do know and what I can find out if I come across something I discover I need. Maybe it's because I'm ignorant, but I really do not think physics is a requirement in life.

[gardenmom5]

.

 

Here in the US, I am an instructor at a 4 year university and teach introductory physics courses. Those courses are not just taken by physics majors: all science and engineering majors must take calculus based physics; all biology majors, premeds, veterinarians must take at least algebra/trig based physics. They also have to take rigorous biology and chemistry courses.

 

kids also need math *at least* through calculus for those higher chem and basic general physics classes.

 

Career aspects aside: I believe that every educated person should know enough science to understand the basics of how the world works. Every person has to make decisions in life where a science understanding is crucial. I am thinking of things like: how does the body work? How do antibiotics work, why can't I take them for a cold, why must I finish my course? How do vaccines work? How does a microwave works? Can heating my water bottle really create dioxins as claimed on the internet? (no, it can't) Why does the moon not fall down? What is CO and why can it be dangerous? Why should I not mix certain household cleaners? I can think of many many more questions which arise for average people in daily life where a science understanding is important.

.

:iagree: My dd referred back to her chemistry background to figure out how to get the desitin (lots and lots of desitin) out of dudelings hair, as not even a bottle of dawn would touch it. (she used peanut butter.).

 

while this is an example of applying good science understanding, it is one more example of why it is important. another is all the "bad science" running around out there. e.g. the "petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide" designed to expose poor understanding. we fell on the floor laughing when ds brought it home, but when reading most of a COLLEGE chem class signed it :svengo: it wasn't funny. (I'm thinking it had to have been a remedial chem class. I can't imagine a 101 class would be so naive.) seriously, what were they studying? (like the female students at UVermont who signed the petition designed to expose the appalling lack of civics education. the petition was to "end women's suffrage", but lots of female students signed it. only a scant handful objected.)

 

we have a saying in our house - cooking is chemistry.

[Parker Martin]

I think it's critical to have a deep understanding of how science works and an especially deep understanding of the scientific method and excellence in methodology.

 

I am appalled every day at articles in the news that demonstrate such poor understanding of the scientific method. Nearly every report that hits the major media about a scientific study misinterprets the results. It's disgraceful.

 

You even commonly see it in the actual studies. Usually an overreliance on correlation or terrible variable control. It's incredible the number of studies performed that are basically meaningless because they are so poorly designed. You also see ridiculous statistical errors and misapplications.

 

So yes, I think science is essential, less for the knowledge of the specific scientific facts, though that is essential for cultural literacy, but for understanding how science works. Plus, it's a boon to critical thinking.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Parker Martin

[myfunnybunch]

Absolutely essential for my husband's career.

 

My boys want to be scientists and engineers (most days, although the 6 y.o. said yesterday he wants to grow up to be a puppy :confused:), so a solid science education will be essential for them as well.

 

I believe that a good solid foundation in science is important for everyone, whether science will be a part of their career or not. An understanding of the basics of science and the scientific method can help in many areas of daily life from cooking (baking powder + buttermilk=base+acid=a reaction that produces fluffy biscuits), to an appreciation for the complexity of the natural world, to carefully evaluating scientific, and "scientific," information presented by the media.

 

Cat

[happyhomemaker25]

If a child has a good basic knowledge of highschool science, good critical thinking skills, good advanced math skills and good study skills how hard will it be for them in the first year or two years of college? I'm really basing this on being surrounded by kids who went through public schools. My kids will more than likely spend their first two years at our local community college.

[Ester Maria]

I think a solid science background should be a non-negotiable part of a high school education. Now, we could debate what "solid" means, but basically I think that high school bound students should do the typical four-year math and science progression (which would include Biology, Chemistry, Physics and an advanced / elective science). Even if one does not go into a science or a math-heavy field, the ability to understand scientific method, how to assess information, how science works and the basic ability tell scientific from pseudo-scientific claims is very important, along with the core content from high school classes.

[lauracolumbus]

We've been sort of lackadaisical about science here for the exact reasons you've mentioned. I sort of justified this by the approach used in LCC. Lots of nature studies, science museum trips, science dvds, and weekly experiments w/CC and those adorable little books written by Dan Green(e).

 

I'm trying to ramp it up w/ds this year as he will be in 9th grade next year and will hit science head on. He's using PH Physical Science Concepts in Action and it is pretty meaty for him. It's also his first textbook/outlining experience. The good news is he is enjoying it. I think in part b/c it's a whole new world to him. He also just started piano and seems to be enjoying it more now than if I had started him earlier.

 

However, I think both my dds will be more math/science oriented and I'm doing a lot more with them now. In part b/c I think the study of science really is the study of the world and our lives. So much of our future will revolve around science. A good book to read is "Science Matters." DS will be reading it this summer.

 

Laura

[catz]

We've been sort of lackadaisical about science here for the exact reasons you've mentioned. I sort of justified this by the approach used in LCC. Lots of nature studies, science museum trips, science dvds, and weekly experiments w/CC and those adorable little books written by Dan Green(e).

 

With my kids at their current ages, we are kind of lazy about science. We do nature center programs, jr. ranger programs, videos, outside classes or camps 2-3 times a year, various science kits, and I always have a science related read aloud going. I've had science curriculum through the house and we've tried it, but elementary to jr. high science just does not have much actual content. We seem to do better and have more fun with it on our own and my oldest who tests every year is doing great. He could do high school science now, but I want him to really be able to do lab reports and be ready for the work load before I do it.

 

I'm setting my kids up for a 4 year rigorous University experience if that is what they want. Both my husband I took that route and we both have tech degrees that required rigorous college level science.

[regentrude]

Many are questions that can be answered by other people I trust, like doctors. The internet is also a wonderful place to get answers.

 

And how will you be able to evaluate the conflicting information you find on the internet? there is a lot of incorrect information circulating out there, and just because something is copied and pasted many times, it does not make it true.

For example, if you don't know how a vaccine works, how can you make an informed decision to vaccinate, or not to vaccinate, your children? Which doctor will you trust? (Not all doctors give identical advice)

How can you decide that it is safe to use a microwave? There are certainly sites on the internet that warn of the radiation... on what information do you base your decision to use, or not use, a microwave?

How do you decide which political faction to believe re global warming without understanding the mechanism?

 

I can only imagine the world being a very confusing place if I had to rely on other people to explain, issues, devices, phenomena and had no idea if what they are advising could possibly be correct. I think I personally would find it scary not to understand what is going on around me.

[Catherine]

IMO, both have a role, but I agree with others who've pointed out that it's not for everyone. My goal for my kids is to have a basic knowledge of the facts of how things work, like the laws of mechanics, the parts of a cell, etc. I think understanding is a separate issue-HOW scientists do what they do. I want to teach that too, but it's a way of thinking, not a body of knowledge.

 

My goals are different there. I want my boys to understand the nature of scientific inquiry-experimentation, comparison of results with hypothesis, and the all-important step of assessing, given the findings, whether our previous understanding is correct or needs modification. It sounds simple, but it's not. The essence of scientific inquiry is figuring out how to actually test a hypothesis, and how to assess the results. It's amazing to to think that for more than 1,000 years, people did not understand the basic laws of mechanics, because no one had done the experimentation to confirm or refute their assumptions. The careful dissection of our assumptions, and testing of their validity, is what scientists do. Teaching this, sometimes called "teaching the scientific method" is not at all simple and I would argue is not about teaching the steps, but is about engendering a way of looking at the world. How can this be tested? What would happen if.....?

 

Thus my gripes with so many of the science curricula out there (and I'm NOT exempting PS curricula here-they are just as big a problem)-they seem to be too focused on the knowledge, and lacking in encouragement of actual inquiry. There IS new information out there, within the reach of even the youngest students, but it's a matter of knowing how to look for it.

 

So I'd argue that science is important, but, not everyone will assign the same weight to it and that's fine.

[regentrude]

another is all the "bad science" running around out there. e.g. the "petition to ban dihydrogen monoxide" designed to expose poor understanding. we fell on the floor laughing when ds brought it home, but when reading most of a COLLEGE chem class signed it :svengo: it wasn't funny. (I'm thinking it had to have been a remedial chem class. I can't imagine a 101 class would be so naive.).

 

You are kidding, right?

Is that circulating on the Internet, or who came up with this brilliant idea?

Off to search... that one promises to be fun

 

ETA: Found it. This is so good, it deserves an extra thread...

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

Edited November 12, 2011 by regentrude

[delaney]

I think it depends on the child. For older DD it will not be needed. She is not that type of thinker and I could never imagine her in a math or science field. Younger DD yes. She thinks that way. I never took physics and seriously doubt that it has had an impact on my life. If I really need to know something I Google it. I mean really. Calculus was a waste too. I got a BS and MS in elementary ed. I needed nothing above basic math and science to do that. I think that I just want my kids to have a grasp of broad scientific topics but also be strong on nature study and understanding the world. I think science is not as cut and dry as reading, writing, and math in need. I also think that study of scientists in history is needed. We need to know the history of science to understand and appreciate it.

I will do General Science, Bio, Chem, probably for all but I don't know who will get physics. I think Earth science would be a better sub.

[gardenmom5]

I think it's critical to have a deep understanding of how science works and an especially deep understanding of the scientific method and excellence in methodology.

 

. Nearly every report that hits the major media about a scientific study misinterprets the results. It's disgraceful.

.

 

dd refuses to watch mythbusters becuase of the frequent violations of the scientific method. (hey, they're about entertainment.) makes her nuts. But people are learning their methods, and thinking it's good.

 

I frequent a science blog that has a well known (in circles at his level) solar scientist. He has freqeuntly commentted, "correlation is not causation."

[Colleen in NS]

I never took physics and seriously doubt that it has had an impact on my life. ...I think that I just want my kids to ...also be strong on ...understanding the world.

 

I never took physics, either, though it was offered at my high school. In fact, I didn't even know what physics WAS until about five years ago! I can say that now that we are in our second rotation of studying physics (we did a pass-through in grammar stage, and are currently on the logic stage rotation), boy did I ever miss out. I mean, probably everyone else knows this, but I never understood how a plane could fly. Imagine - I put myself into those metal tubes many times during my 20s, and trusted that it would stay up in the air and not crash. How stupid of me. Nothing I'd ever learned told me how that worked, yet I stupidly trusted. Never questioned. Anyway, I can say that I have learned things that have helped me to cope with life better. For example, our toilet (the only one!) is on the fritz today. Dh turned off the supply line to it until he figures out why the line is leaking. We have to dump buckets of water down to flush. And in the back of my mind, I knew that we had to also fill it with water after flushing, because of physics. I think it has something to do with the curved pipe needing to have water in it, or else sewer gasses might come up and possibly poison the bathroom air. And I know it's because of a physics concept. I would never have dreamed that or thought to refill with water, had I not learned some things about physics. And I'm sure regentrude is cringing at my lame explanation, and that I am missing something, but I'm coming along in my understanding. And I filled that toilet. :D

 

You mentioned you want your kids to be strong on their understanding of their world. Physics will explain a lot about our world that biology or chemistry won't. It also can give greater understanding to biology and chemistry.

 

I am terrified of the responsibility to make sure my kids get a good science education, but I am determined to do the best I can. The more I know, the more I realize how many parts of my life would have been MUCH easier in the past had I known more about physics (and the other sciences)(for example, not living in fear each time I had to take my broken-down car to a mechanic and hope that he wouldn't dream up some repair and take advantage of me financially).

 

Physics is everywhere. You can't see it like you can see a leaf or a tree or a bird, but it affects everything we do.

 

:iagree: My dd referred back to her chemistry background to figure out how to get the desitin (lots and lots of desitin) out of dudelings hair, as not even a bottle of dawn would touch it. (she used peanut butter.).

 

And if I'd had a better science background, I wouldn't have been so dependent upon books or magazine "tips" that tell you how to solve household problems, but don't tell you WHY they work. WHY does the peanut butter get the Desitin out? My kid is allergic to peanut, so I don't have any p.b., so how ELSE can I get this Desitin out of his hair?? It must be a freeing thing to be able to figure these things out on your own.

 

Yes, I totally think science is very important.