Ds14's Agamemnon Essay

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is ds14's first attempt at a strictly literary essay. I'd appreciate any feedback you can give. (The essay had normal indentation and was double spaced.)

 

In the Agamemnon, Aeschylus demonstrates one of his religious ideas: all sinners receive retribution. This is demonstrated in Agamemnon's death.

 

Aeschylus slowly reveals what happened in Troy for the first three quarters of the book. As he shows what happened, he hints at a wrong committed just after the fall of Troy. He does not reveal what happened until introduces the herald. The herald mentions1 that Agamemnon had desecrated the temples in Troy. To the herald, this is a small thing. After all, the Trojans were enemies. To the gods, the desecration was a major crime. The elders sense this, and it adds to the foreboding of the last scene.

 

After Agamemnon returns, he commits the crime that seals his fate: walking on a tapestry. It does not sound like much, but at that time, tapestries were for walls, not floors, and to walk on one was to be as opulent as the Persians, mentioned as a depraved "Oriental" or "Asiatic"2. The view of the time, which Agamemnon echoed3, was that the "red carpet treatment" was only for the gods. Because of his prideful and pompous personality, however, these arguments were only token in nature, and he accepted the honor.

 

To punish Agamemnon, Zeus moves Clytaemestra to kill her husband. This was Agamemnon's punishment for his crimes.

 

Aeschylus saw events as the result of actions, not necessarily because of strict cause and effect, but because of the gods giving the punishment or reward previous choices deserved. For Agamemnon, the final punishment was for his pompous and arrogant attitude, something the gods did not tolerate.

 

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1 Lines 527-530 of the Agamemnon translated by Richard Lattimore, Modern Library edition.

2 Lines 919-920 Ibid.

3 Lines 914- 930 Ibid.

[regentrude]

How much background studies has your son done before attempting this? Is he thoroughly familiar with Greek mythology?

I am a bit surprised to see no mention of the actual sins of Agamemnon and the curse of the house of Atreus for which he is ultimately punished - the treading on the robe can be only a pretense.

 

A few language mechanics issues:

In the Agamemnon, Aeschylus demonstrates one of his religious ideas: all sinners receive retribution. This is demonstrated in Agamemnon's death.

 

Repetetive. He should chose a different verb.

 

Aeschylus slowly reveals what happened in Troy for the first three quarters of the book. As he shows what happened, he hints at a wrong committed just after the fall of Troy. He does not reveal what happened until introduces the herald.

 

Avoid repetition and vary the verb.

Also, the first sentence presents a semantics issue (what did happen in Troy for the first three quarters of the book?) and would be better if the phrases were regrouped: During the first three quarters of the book, Aeschylus slowly reveals what happened in Troy.

Also, substitute "play" or "work" for "book" - it is not technically a book.

 

The herald mentions1 that Agamemnon had desecrated the temples in Troy. To the herald, this is a small thing. After all, the Trojans were enemies. To the gods, the desecration was a major crime. The elders sense this, and it adds to the foreboding of the last scene.

 

After Agamemnon returns, he commits the crime that seals his fate: walking on a tapestry. It does not sound like much, but at that time, tapestries were for walls, not floors, and to walk on one was to be as opulent as the Persians, mentioned as a depraved "Oriental" or "Asiatic"2.

 

Now I am confused: the gods care more about the tapestry than about the desecration?

 

The view of the time, which Agamemnon echoed3, was that the "red carpet treatment" was only for the gods. Because of his prideful and pompous personality, however, these arguments were only token in nature, and he accepted the honor.

 

I do not understand this sentence. What arguments is he talking about?

 

To punish Agamemnon, Zeus moves Clytaemestra to kill her husband. This was Agamemnon's punishment for his crimes.

 

He needs to elaborate on this.

Btw, I am pretty sure Clytemnestra is resolved to kill Agamemnon already before he steps on the tapestry - doesn't Cassandra prophesy this to Agamemnon?

Aeschylus saw events as the result of actions, not necessarily because of strict cause and effect, but because of the gods giving the punishment or reward previous choices deserved. For Agamemnon, the final punishment was for his pompous and arrogant attitude, something the gods did not tolerate.

.

Agamemnon is punished because of a multitude of things, not mainly because of being pompous. He is punished because his father doomed the family by cooking his nephews and serving them to their father. He is punished because he sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia.

Any discussion of Agamemnon without a discussion of the myth of the house of Atreus is incomplete.

[Jean in Newcastle]

How much background studies has your son done before attempting this? Is he thoroughly familiar with Greek mythology?

I am a bit surprised to see no mention of the actual sins of Agamemnon and the curse of the house of Atreus for which he is ultimately punished - the treading on the robe can be only a pretense.

 

A few language mechanics issues:

 

 

Repetetive. He should chose a different verb.

 

Avoid repetition and vary the verb.

Also, the first sentence presents a semantics issue (what did happen in Troy for the first three quarters of the book?) and would be better if the phrases were regrouped: During the first three quarters of the book, Aeschylus slowly reveals what happened in Troy.

Also, substitute "play" or "work" for "book" - it is not technically a book.

 

Now I am confused: the gods care more about the tapestry than about the desecration?

 

I do not understand this sentence. What arguments is he talking about?

 

He needs to elaborate on this.

Btw, I am pretty sure Clytemnestra is resolved to kill Agamemnon already before he steps on the tapestry - doesn't Cassandra prophesy this to Agamemnon?

Agamemnon is punished because of a multitude of things, not mainly because of being pompous. He is punished because his father doomed the family by cooking his nephews and serving them to their father. He is punished because he sacrificed his daughter Iphigenia.

Any discussion of Agamemnon without a discussion of the myth of the house of Atreus is incomplete.

 

Thank you, Regentrude. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for.

[Ester Maria]

One thing which stands out for me - especially if I vaguely recall your son's last year paper I reviewed back then - is his tendency to moralize things. Here he is literally reading Christianity into antiquity. Mind you, he is a high school student, and he is fourteen, so this tendency and the inability to fully mentally separate the two fundamentally different cultural matrices, is not something unheard of or something that is not appropriate for age and educational level; still, I would be cautious and possibly actively drawing his attention to these matters.

 

Here are concrete examples of what I find problematic:

In the Agamemnon, Aeschylus demonstrates one of his religious ideas: all sinners receive retribution.

Is "religious ideas" a proper expression? If so, what do we base that claim on - can we textually back up the religious nature behind his writings, OTHER than a very vague and general understanding that tragedy as a genre stems from ritual? And even if we do, do we equate the kind of ritual it stems from with religion? And even if we do, do we fully acknowledge that there are different stages of the Greek religion, different stages in the development of tragedy, and that Aeshylus belongs not only to a general "ancient Greek" context, but to a more specific context within that (already overgeneralized) period / Zeitgeist?

I do not actually expect the answers to these questions of a high school student, but I am voicing them to point out why the wording per se might have been problematic.

 

And even if it were not, other things would be problematic - does one necessarily voice one's religious ideas when writing? At which point can one speak of the "intent" behind writing anyway, and does it matter?

 

The word "sinners" is an INCREDIBLY loaded word, stemming from a completely different mental framework. In fact, the whole "crime and punishment" thing is also quite removed from antiquity. In fact, the whole phenomenon of tragedy is about a totally different approach to life than "action and consequences"... And that is the whole POINT of it and why it is so difficult to read in our times. Tragedy is NOT a story of good and evil - when approached that way, through those specific lenses, it is an almost positive sign that one did not understand what one had read. :(

 

Ditto for "prideful personality"... One may speak of hubris, but then one has to approach a culture on its own terms, not on Judeo-Christian terms of pride. Now, with attitude, he may be onto something, but he needs to tone down the moralistic notes.

Ditto for "punishment and reward", for reasons already stated. Ditto for the concept of "desert". Agamemnon did not really "sin", it is not a prescribed religion... and the concept of a "choice" is a very dubious one as well in the Greek culture. To focus on that aspect is another possible cross cultural misunderstanding.

 

 

If he wants to work on this further, basic additional things to consider are the family revenge cycle / the curse of the house of Atreus. He needs to put Agamemnon in that context and take it from there and severely tone down all of the things I brought up before, or it affects the essay and sheds a completely different light on it.

 

ETA: Just to make one thing sure. What I wrote about above are incredibly complex issues that for most people click at much older ages, after much more intense literature studies. You should not get worried or upset over it - I am just sharing my sincere view of it. In fact, in this particular instance, the level of "fixing" needed to make it a truly good paper might as well be out of reach for most children, if they want to hold on to the same topic, and it is something to consider. I am not sure I would hold it against him, so to speak - only you can estimate whether he could have drawn the necessary distinctions or not and whether he could have had a more nuanced view of it or not.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ester Maria - You have good points but in this case it was Cliff Notes who wrote the thesis, not my son! He chose this thesis statement out of a choice of 5 provided in the question / essay part of the Cliff Notes for Agamemnon. His conclusions, of course, are his own.

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria - You have good points but in this case it was Cliff Notes who wrote the thesis, not my son!

I never liked them, they have too many "lapses" like that. :glare:

 

I checked their essay questions in the online edition (here), your son's topic is #4. There are a few others I do not like, but #4 really stands out. The second question is good, but the first one is an eye-rolling one - no source, no text, "sinners", the way it is worded is a perfect trap.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

While I agree with Ester Maria that the sinners framework doesn't apply well to the religion and mythology of the ancient Greeks, I'd ask a different question. Does the essay prove the thesis?

 

Is the thesis that Agamemnon's death demonstrates that sinners receive retribution? Or is is that all sinners receive retribution? If the latter, then how does the essay prove the universal consquences received by all sinners?

 

If the former (and I think he does need to either alter the word sinner or include a discussion of what constituted "sin" in the Greek worldview), then what are Aganemnon's offenses? What about the sacrifice of his daughter? (Is this a "sin" or is he exonerated because it was done to appease a goddess?) Is hubris worthy of punishment? If so, how did he demonstrate hubris? What happens to the concept of "sin" when you are dealing with multiple gods, who are themselves in competition? (It may require an understanding of the story of Troy beyond the play for this last question.)

 

I think I would also have expected more direct discussion of the descecration (Whose temple? Did he suffer setbacks in the war as a consequence? Did he make any attempt to "atone" {bad word choice, I know} for the descecration via sacrifice to the god(s) offended?). Are the elders as offended by the descecration as an affront to the gods, or do they think it was justified because it was a Trojan temple?

 

I don't think it's the best thesis*. But sometimes you do have to work with bad essay topics. I think he could have done a more detailed and stronger job defending what he has as the thesis.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I never liked them, they have too many "lapses" like that. :glare:

 

I checked their essay questions in the online edition (here), your son's topic is #4. There are a few others I do not like, but #4 really stands out. The second question is good, but the first one is an eye-rolling one - no source, no text, "sinners", the way it is worded is a perfect trap.

 

Looking at the list of questions, I think that they can't all be an essay prompt (even though the page is labeled as such). The last four questions seem to be much lower level, comprehension/recognition type questions.

 

So it might be an opportunity to talk about weak and strong thesis statements. (A discussion happening at my house too, btw.)

[Ester Maria]

Looking at the list of questions, I think that they can't all be an essay prompt (even though the page is labeled as such). The last four questions seem to be much lower level, comprehension/recognition type questions.

 

So it might be an opportunity to talk about weak and strong thesis statements. (A discussion happening at my house too, btw.)

You are right; I had skimmed them before I replied, and I noticed the last few questions were about defining things rather than essay prompts, so I mentally wrote them off.

 

I like your suggestions on how to deal with this particular topic, if one chooses it. :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Thank you, Sebastian. Very good points. And yes, I had crossed some of the questions off of the potential essay thesis list. But you make good points there too.

 

Right now we're taking a break from the thesis to watch some of the Teaching Co. DVDs that Regentrude recommended on a s/o thread.

 

Before our next essay I'm going to come back and read this thread again so that we can approach it better right from the start.

[Teachin'Mine]

Personally I think that while some of the questions could be used as the basis for a thesis statement for a formal essay, the intent of their being listed in Cliff Notes is very different. They're just listed as essay questions which to me means that they require a fully written answer, with appropriate supports, as opposed to fill-in-the-blank or other types of answers, but not necessarily a full multi-paragraph essay. Kwim?

 

ETA: Ignore the above. I just realized that the questions linked here are different from the five thesis statements from which the OP had to choose. : )

Edited November 17, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[Guest Hopeliaibia]

I know I have seen somewhere a guide for writing the 5 paragraph essay paper topics in high school, but now I cannot find it. Was it part of my introductory packet, in one of the study guides, or somewhere online that I saw it? I would really appreciate hep in pointing me in the right direction to find this. My dd is ready to write her first paper topic and she is wanting to know just what Kolbe is wanting. Thanks.

[Teachin'Mine]

I know I have seen somewhere a guide for writing the 5 paragraph essay paper topics in high school, but now I cannot find it. Was it part of my introductory packet, in one of the study guides, or somewhere online that I saw it? I would really appreciate hep in pointing me in the right direction to find this. My dd is ready to write her first paper topic and she is wanting to know just what Kolbe is wanting. Thanks.

 

I would contact Kolbe and ask them to send the info - they should be able to do it by e-mail if you need it quickly. :)

[Create Your Ritual]

Could you tell me where to find that list of TC DVDs you mentioned? Thanks!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Could you tell me where to find that list of TC DVDs you mentioned? Thanks!

 

The spin/off thread with Regentrude's suggestions that I mentioned is here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323679&highlight=classical+mythology