s/o What does Quiverful mean to you?

[Bluegoat]

I would say the main thing that would make me lable a person quiverful would be that their refusal to use bc or NFP or abstinance is ideological, and is usually thought to apply to everyone, or most people. Not someone who simply things it is what they want for their family, or even what God wants for their specific family.

 

I also would tend to say it is associated with other things - with a fundamentalist and evangelical Protestantism and also to some extent with American Christianity, but one can have those things without being quiverful, and theoretically I think vice versa.

[LBS]

May I ask an ignorant question, please?

 

Whether NFP, quiverfull mindset, Quiverfull Movement, patriarchal family, or any other of the life choices being discussed here: how does the women and girls wearing long skirts/dresses/jumpers and wearing long hair tie in with these?

 

I'm just curious and intend no offense, just that I have noticed very large families in our community, where the women did this, and wondered if it was a mark of showing femininity?

[Veritaserum]

May I ask an ignorant question, please?

 

Whether NFP, quiverfull mindset, Quiverfull Movement, patriarchal family, or any other of the life choices being discussed here: how does the women and girls wearing long skirts/dresses/jumpers and wearing long hair tie in with these?

 

I'm just curious and intend no offense, just that I have noticed very large families in our community, where the women did this, and wondered if it was a mark of showing femininity?

 

It's a legalistic interpretation of a Bible verse about women not wearing men's clothing. The long hair is from verses about hair being your crowning glory and long hair as your covering. Marked femininity and submission to male authority are hallmarks of extreme patriarchy and the Quiverful Movement.

 

I love my obviously women's pants. ;)

[twoforjoy]

You also have to note that if someone marries when they are quite young and then both have good fertility rates, the odds are good that they will have much larger families than average.

 

I guess this is where I find it hard to believe there isn't, for many of these QF families, some intentionality. I'm talking about people with 12+ kids. Now, I don't doubt that some of those are just unusually fertile people. But, even if somebody went their entire life without using BC or trying to prevent pregnancy, that would be an unusually high number of children to have. I was just looking at statistics, and the Niger has the highest fertility rate, and it's 7.6 children per woman.

 

I'm from a long line of Roman Catholics, and my grandparents and great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents were Catholics before there were basal thermometers and books telling you how to check your cervical mucous. On my maternal side, my grandmother had four kids, her mother had six kids, and her mother had five. My MIL had one child, never using birth control, and her mother had three and was one of four. My FIL's mother had eleven children. My father and his siblings knew one family in their neighborhood who had 14 kids--and this was a Catholic neighborhood in the 1950s--and that was considered an astonishingly large number of children.

 

So it's not like most normally-fertile people will end up with 10+ kids if they don't use any form of birth control. Very few will, I'd be willing to bet. I'm not super aware of the QF movement, but my impression of it is that many involved have extremely large families. It's hard for me to believe that so many QF families have so many kids without there being some effort made to have lots of kids.

 

Or, and I hope this isn't an inappropriate question, is it that the partriarchal structure of a lot of QF families puts the woman in a position where very frequent sexual activity is expected? Because, honestly, I imagine that the reason that many of my ancestors stopped at 4-6 kids or so was because, at a certain point, they were too darn tired to get around to making more babies. But if abstinence from sex, even if it was sort of an unconscious thing that happened because both partners were just tired and not very interested for a period, is seen as unacceptable, then you might see more frequent pregnancies.

Edited November 9, 2011 by twoforjoy

[Jackie in NE]

Well, I just glanced at some of the other posts, so forgive me if this is off..... but being infertile as I am, using or not using birth control is a moot point for me. But in answer to the direct question..... I always seem to want one more child than I currently have.... lol. :) It was true while we were fostering, and it is true now. Wish I had one more to love and hold and teach and raise. Always. I would take 3 or 4 or 5 more..... but I really just want one more, for now.

[AFwife Claire]

So it's not like most normally-fertile people will end up with 10+ kids if they don't use any form of birth control. Very few will, I'd be willing to bet. I'm not super aware of the QF movement, but my impression of it is that many involved have extremely large families. It's hard for me to believe that so many QF families have so many kids without there being some effort made to have lots of kids.

 

 

 

Hmmm . . . well, I don't know about all your theories. I have 8 children. We are not "Quiverfull", as in espousing any sort of movement (and I don't wear skirts!). Right now I would call us "lazy about birth control because it doesn't really matter if we have more or not--we like kids", LOL. There have been a few times in our marriage where we did use birth control. I nurse for around a year for each baby, and I usually return to fertility when a baby is around a year (although I got pregnant with #6 when #5 was 4 months old--and I was doing all the right things and had never been fertile before that early so YOU JUST NEVER KNOW AND SHOULDN'T JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE!!). We married when I was 20, but we didn't have our first child until I was 24. We have not sought out having children, I haven't tested for ovulation, or anything. Yet we have 8 kids, I am only 38, and we could conceivably have a few more, and we could have had a few more on the front end if we had started earlier. I do not consider myself super fertile, and like I said before, we were not deliberately trying to conceive--just not doing anything to stop it. (And no weird patriarchal must-say-yes-to-sex thing going on either!)

 

So again, anecdotally, it is indeed quite possible to have a large family without trying at all. And it is also pretty much impossible to accurately describe to someone who doesn't have a large family how it gets so much easier to have babies when your older kids are older, how the older kids really want more younger siblings, and how much fun it really is!

[silliness7]

Hmmm . . . well, I don't know about all your theories. I have 8 children. We are not "Quiverfull", as in espousing any sort of movement (and I don't wear skirts!). Right now I would call us "lazy about birth control because it doesn't really matter if we have more or not--we like kids", LOL. There have been a few times in our marriage where we did use birth control. I nurse for around a year for each baby, and I usually return to fertility when a baby is around a year (although I got pregnant with #6 when #5 was 4 months old--and I was doing all the right things and had never been fertile before that early so YOU JUST NEVER KNOW AND SHOULDN'T JUDGE OTHER PEOPLE!!). We married when I was 20, but we didn't have our first child until I was 24. We have not sought out having children, I haven't tested for ovulation, or anything. Yet we have 8 kids, I am only 38, and we could conceivably have a few more, and we could have had a few more on the front end if we had started earlier. I do not consider myself super fertile, and like I said before, we were not deliberately trying to conceive--just not doing anything to stop it. (And no weird patriarchal must-say-yes-to-sex thing going on either!)

 

So again, anecdotally, it is indeed quite possible to have a large family without trying at all. And it is also pretty much impossible to accurately describe to someone who doesn't have a large family how it gets so much easier to have babies when your older kids are older, how the older kids really want more younger siblings, and how much fun it really is!

 

I can identify with much of this post...just to throw another anecdote out there for non-patriarchal, not trying to have a large family but have 7 anyway kind of story. My kids have baby fever at the moment. Unfortunately for them, I do not. :001_smile:

[Melissa in Australia]

. I was just looking at statistics, and the Niger has the highest fertility rate, and it's 7.6 children per woman.

 

So it's not like most normally-fertile people will end up with 10+ kids if they don't use any form of birth control. Very few will, I'd be willing to bet. I'm not super aware of the QF movement, but my impression of it is that many involved have extremely large families. It's hard for me to believe that so many QF families have so many kids without there being some effort made to have lots of kids.

 

QUOTE]

 

I don't really agree with you . I think historically there was a very high infant mortality rate, Infanticide was practiced widely in many civilizations to reduce offspring numbers plus heaps of women died in childbirth which limited the family size.

 

I come from a long line of over fertile women.

[Natalieclare]

I can identify with much of this post...just to throw another anecdote out there for non-patriarchal, not trying to have a large family but have 7 anyway kind of story. My kids have baby fever at the moment. Unfortunately for them, I do not. :001_smile:

 

Add me to this list...

 

And my 4 yo just sat on me the other day, pushing on my tummy, saying, "Pop a baby out! Pop a baby out!"

 

We are donedonedone, though. I now have a blood incompatibility issue that makes me too darn scared to even think about another baby. So my 4 yo is just going to have to suffer...

[mommaduck]

twoforjoy, my experience in the QF movement was that NFP was acceptable. In fact, I had used it to avoid. I also was more in the mood for tea when I was fertile. My periods a year after every baby. There was no "intent" for me except with a couple of them. In fact, I got pregnant at times that I was trying to avoid and NFP failed (the signs were off). I still had eleven pregnancies.

 

I come from a line of small families on one side and large families on the other.

Edited November 9, 2011 by mommaduck

[Renee in NC]

So it's not like most normally-fertile people will end up with 10+ kids if they don't use any form of birth control. Very few will, I'd be willing to bet. I'm not super aware of the QF movement, but my impression of it is that many involved have extremely large families. It's hard for me to believe that so many QF families have so many kids without there being some effort made to have lots of kids.

 

Or, and I hope this isn't an inappropriate question, is it that the partriarchal structure of a lot of QF families puts the woman in a position where very frequent sexual activity is expected? Because, honestly, I imagine that the reason that many of my ancestors stopped at 4-6 kids or so was because, at a certain point, they were too darn tired to get around to making more babies. But if abstinence from sex, even if it was sort of an unconscious thing that happened because both partners were just tired and not very interested for a period, is seen as unacceptable, then you might see more frequent pregnancies.

 

I still disagree with you. Even with demand nursing and co-sleeping, I usually had 9 months or so from 1 baby to getting pregnant with the next. Sometimes a little more. From 21 to 33, I had six children (with no effort to get pregnant and no effort *not* to just before I got pregnant with #3.) So, from age 24 to age 33 (9 years) I had 5 children. I have no reason to think had I continued that I would have had less fertility because I was getting older.

 

If I had started at 18, and continued to not use bc (NFP), and assuming an average of 2 years apart, I would most likely have 9. Even stretching it out so that I had 3 years apart from here on out, I could easily have 3 more.

 

I had no twins. My fertility is not higher than normal. The above estimate is low because my dc came 18 months apart, not 2 years. You are right that most QF families don't have HUGE families (as in more than 12.) The only family I have seen with more than 12 is the Duggars (and that other family they hang out with?) Life happens - some people have multiple miscarriages, some don't. Some have twins and some don't. Some get their fertility back sooner and some don't.

 

As for the patriarchal nature of QF, that is a separate issue. We are not and were not patriarchal. At one point I tried to be that way and dh was NOT happy.:tongue_smilie: I could say more, but we'll just leave it at that.;)

 

Your family in the past used NFP to prevent pregnancy. QF families do not. Maybe they were just too tired, or maybe they didn't want more than they had, or maybe they had hysterectomies (this seemed to be way more common in the past.)

 

However, you are right that abstinance is not acceptable for any length of time either - there is a Bible verse for that, too. To me, that doesn't mean actively trying (active trying would be to use NFP to make sure that you were together on fertile days.) And, remember that QF would also mean no fertility treatments, so some QF families may have NO children.

 

I won't say that some families might try to "win" the biggest family race, but it is *not* the norm in the QF people I have known.

[mommaduck]

 

As for the patriarchal nature of QF, that is a separate issue. We are not and were not patriarchal. At one point I tried to be that way and dh was NOT happy.:tongue_smilie: I could say more, but we'll just leave it at that.;)

 

Ditto. I've found that a lot of families seem to start with the WIFE aiming for this.

[Scarlett]

I disagree. I have 7 dc, and when #7 was born I had 5 that were 7 and under. We did *nothing* to try and get pregnant (other than the obvious:tongue_smilie:) - I breastfed on demand, co-slept, etc. When he was born, I was 33. I could easily have ended up with another 7!:001_huh: We decided not to.:D

 

Avatar change equals confused Scarlett. :001_huh:

[cathmom]

I see twoforjoy's point. I have family genealogy back to 1640 on one side of my family. Super big families (say, over 8) are rare even if you include children who did not survive to adulthood. I'm sure malnutrition and illness were factors.

 

I am not, and have never been, quiverfull, even though I have a large family. Those 7 children are spread out over 19 years and include one set of twins. I could never be quiverfull because I am Catholic and believe that NFP is acceptable. The QF people I know and know of do not accept NFP.

 

As for all the things mentioned before that are associated with the QF movement, may I just say a very emphatic, "Ick!"

[Renee in NC]

Avatar change equals confused Scarlett. :001_huh:

 

:lol::lol:

 

Yes, I have a face now. I keep confusing *myself*!:tongue_smilie:

[Renee in NC]

I see twoforjoy's point. I have family genealogy back to 1640 on one side of my family. Super big families (say, over 8) are rare even if you include children who did not survive to adulthood. I'm sure malnutrition and illness were factors.

 

 

 

I wonder, too, though I still don't think it is because those families are "trying" to get pregnant.

 

According to the CDC, the average family size in 1800 was 7 - which would mean that the mid 50% range was more in the 3.5 to 10.5 area. This would mean that some families had none and some had much larger families. This was before bc was wide spread and people didn't know as much about NFP. The (limited) knowledge I have about QF families is that this statistic fits. No matter what, you are going to have some outliers (and those are the ones who get TV shows!:tongue_smilie:)

 

The same link says that in the 1900-1910 decade, 71% of women reported using contraception of some sort. It is possible that women were using bc even though they weren't "supposed to" or didn't tell anyone.;) Other factors include nutrition, number of years of fertility (some have more than others), age at marriage, etc.

 

The man I met that was one of 24 said that his mother had multiple sets of multiples (twins and triplets.) She was also married very, very young (13 or 14?) Obviously, his mother is an outlier.

 

I wish I could access some kind of a distribution curve for family size.:tongue_smilie:

[Ginevra]

I guess this is where I find it hard to believe there isn't, for many of these QF families, some intentionality. I'm talking about people with 12+ kids. Now, I don't doubt that some of those are just unusually fertile people. But, even if somebody went their entire life without using BC or trying to prevent pregnancy, that would be an unusually high number of children to have. I was just looking at statistics, and the Niger has the highest fertility rate, and it's 7.6 children per woman.

 

I'm from a long line of Roman Catholics, and my grandparents and great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents were Catholics before there were basal thermometers and books telling you how to check your cervical mucous. On my maternal side, my grandmother had four kids, her mother had six kids, and her mother had five. My MIL had one child, never using birth control, and her mother had three and was one of four. My FIL's mother had eleven children. My father and his siblings knew one family in their neighborhood who had 14 kids--and this was a Catholic neighborhood in the 1950s--and that was considered an astonishingly large number of children.

 

So it's not like most normally-fertile people will end up with 10+ kids if they don't use any form of birth control. Very few will, I'd be willing to bet. I'm not super aware of the QF movement, but my impression of it is that many involved have extremely large families. It's hard for me to believe that so many QF families have so many kids without there being some effort made to have lots of kids.

 

Or, and I hope this isn't an inappropriate question, is it that the partriarchal structure of a lot of QF families puts the woman in a position where very frequent sexual activity is expected? Because, honestly, I imagine that the reason that many of my ancestors stopped at 4-6 kids or so was because, at a certain point, they were too darn tired to get around to making more babies. But if abstinence from sex, even if it was sort of an unconscious thing that happened because both partners were just tired and not very interested for a period, is seen as unacceptable, then you might see more frequent pregnancies.

 

 

But consider - Niger is a developing country. A fertile woman in a developing country is not likely to have 12+ children for many reasons: she dies before age 30, she suffers multiple miscarriages, she may not be brewing any teA because the children she has are dying and she is ill.

 

A fertile woman in a developed country can conceive easily, is probably not refraining from teA, has a very high chance of having a healthy baby and may be able to have babies for 25 years. All of these things throw in a higher probability of having a very large family.

 

Most of the QF people I knew of did not continue in this mindset from marriage at 19 until menopause. Truly, the Duggars are a breed apart. In part of one of their books, she describes an earlier time when they had 6-7 children and they were living in the 900sq' "home" space attached to the used car lot office. JimBob was working almost constantly. I admire their fortitude, but I promise you, I would not have continued my views under that amount of disadvantage and neither would my dh. I personally would at least have waited on having a few more kids or else I would say we had to take on some small mortgage to have a decent housing situation. I would not stare dire straights in the eyeballs and say, "Yes, give me more children!" Most QF people I have known have also altered their views because of flaws in the plan that made them decide that having more children (or having more children *right then*) simply did not make sense.

 

I think with the 12+ QF families, you generally have a combination of high fertility and several years of embracing those beliefs. I'm sure there are some who ratchet-up the attempts to get pg again, but that is not what I saw on the whole. I was more familiar with seeing people get to 7-9 kids and re-think the whole concept because there were serious flaws to face up to. I can only remember ONE instance of someone aiming to have as many kids as possible and in her case, it wasn't even happening because her dh would not play along.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Quill
Good grief! Major tag fall!