Teaching/CNN

[justamouse]

GPS Special.

Finland: They're saying that one in ten applicants for teaching schools are accepted. That teaching is harder to get into the medical school. That elementary teaching is the hardest. That the Finns do not have standardized tests, and that the teachers are autonomous. They start school at 7 yo, have the shortest days and least amount of homework.

 

I wish I could remember the statistic he gave on the graduating level of American teachers. Something like the lowest two thirds of their classes?

Edited November 8, 2011 by justamouse

[Joker]

I don't think it would matter if our teachers were the cream of the crop. They are given very little respect and support. My sis, sis in law, and brother are all teachers and care a great deal about their students. The students are allowed to be disruptive and are not required to actually do any work.

 

My sis had to write an apology to parents of a student. She grabbed his arm as he was attempting to flee the building. Apparently, it is a huge no-no to grab your students for any reason (even when they admit he is on meds and they forgot to administer them that morninig). My brother has been berated by parents for calling to let them know that their child is struggling in Algebra. Apparently, it is his fault they don't do their homework or study. My brother offers to help before, during, and after school but that is overlooked.

 

We know there is a problem with education in the US but the powers that be want to act like our problems are with the teachers. My problem has never been with the teachers.

[justamouse]

I don't think it would matter if our teachers were the cream of the crop. They are given very little respect and support. My sis, sis in law, and brother are all teachers and care a great deal about their students. The students are allowed to be disruptive and are not required to actually do any work.

 

My sis had to write an apology to parents of a student. She grabbed his arm as he was attempting to flee the building. Apparently, it is a huge no-no to grab your students for any reason (even when they admit he is on meds and they forgot to administer them that morninig). My brother has been berated by parents for calling to let them know that their child is struggling in Algebra. Apparently, it is his fault they don't do their homework or study. My brother offers to help before, during, and after school but that is overlooked.

 

We know there is a problem with education in the US but the powers that be want to act like our problems are with the teachers. My problem has never been with the teachers.

 

It would matter a lot if our teachers were the creme of the crop. The profession as a whole would be more respected, and parents would respect the teachers more, passing that respect down to their children.

 

There's no respect because the whole system is a business, and not a school and the teachers unions play to that.

 

That's not what I was pointing out though, I was pointing out that our teachers are not the best students themselves, and how can we require excellence in our students if we accept such dismal grades from our teachers?

 

Finland aquired that culture of respect for teachers because everyone knows how hard it is to BE one--somewhat like the way the US respects Drs and Lawyers.

 

The system can't control the parents-it can control who becomes a teacher.

Edited November 8, 2011 by justamouse
cripes almighty what I was I trying to say there? :p

[pqr]

It would matter a lot if our teachers were the creme of the crop. The profession as a whole would be more respected, and parents would respect the teachers more, passing that respect down to their children.

 

There's no respect because the whole system is a business, and not a school and the teachers unions play to that.

 

That's not what I was pointing out though, I was pointing out that our teachers are not the best students themselves, and how can we require excellence in our students if we accept such dismal grades from our teachers?

 

Finland reacted that culture of respect for teachers because everyone know how hard it is to BE one--somewhat like the way the US respects Drs and Lawyers.

 

The system can't control the parents-it can control who becomes a teacher.

 

 

You and I are NOT supposed to agree. Change your position NOW!!!!! :-)

 

 

Well I do not have a great deal of respect for some lawyers so maybe that will be our point of contention.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

It would matter a lot if our teachers were the creme of the crop. The profession as a whole would be more respected, and parents would respect the teachers more, passing that respect down to their children.

 

There's no respect because the whole system is a business, and not a school and the teachers unions play to that.

 

That's not what I was pointing out though, I was pointing out that our teachers are not the best students themselves, and how can we require excellence in our students if we accept such dismal grades from our teachers?

 

Finland reacted that culture of respect for teachers because everyone know how hard it is to BE one--somewhat like the way the US respects Drs and Lawyers.

 

The system can't control the parents-it can control who becomes a teacher.

 

I agree with much of the above. I just can't help but think that to improve the situation would require such a fundamental change of the system that none of the parties involved would be willing.

[Joker]

The profession as a whole would be more respected, and parents would respect the teachers more, passing that respect down to their children.

 

Maybe I have trouble seeing your POV because I already have a great amount of respect for teachers? My children also show them respect. I don't see my examples as being about a lack of respect for teachers. I see them as a lack of respect for people in general.

 

I agree there need to many changes but I don't think the biggest problems are because of the teachers themselves.

[twoforjoy]

I know I've harped on this before, but a huge problem is the way teacher education programs are structured.

 

You do NOT find four-year programs ending in a teaching certificate at many selective schools, public or private. There's a few, but they are exceptions. Students at more selective universities have to go to grad school for at least one year, and often two (sometimes three), to become certified to teach. They have to pay for that themselves (there aren't TA-ships available for these programs the way there are for doctoral programs), at grad school rates.

 

I have a good friend who did her undergrad at University of Michigan, a well-regarded school. They did not have an undergraduate education program leading to certification. She went elsewhere for a master's and certification program, and now owes $60K for loans for grad school. And that isn't unusually expensive. I was accepted into a few MAT programs after I graduated college. The cheapest was about $18K/year; the most expensive was $44K for a one-year program. I ended up entering a doctoral program because that gave me free tuition and a teaching assistantship. I had really wanted to be a high school teacher, but it just wasn't feasible financially. (I am now qualified to teach English at the university level, and have been doing so for almost ten years now, but if I wanted to get my teaching certificate in Michigan, to teach high school English, I'd have to take at least two years of additional coursework.)

 

Less-selective schools are much more likely to have undergraduate education majors and certification programs. So, students at those schools are probably much more likely to become teachers.

 

If we want to see a higher caliber of teachers, we need to address this. I knew numerous people at my undergraduate university--and who I went to grad school with, and who I taught when I was in grad school at UM--who wanted to be secondary school teachers. Most were dissuaded because certification would have required paying for another 1-3 years of school. We need to encourage selective schools to have certification programs so that students can leave in four years ready to teach; to provide scholarships, grants, and/or assistantships for grad study for talented students wanting to to into teaching; to have generous loan-forgiveness programs for people who stay in teaching for a certain number of years; and/or to come up with other ways to encourage and support really good students who want to teach at the K-12 level. Right now the desire is there on the part of many good students, but the support just isn't, and the way the system is set up is a huge, huge deterrent to better students entering K-12 teaching.

Edited November 8, 2011 by twoforjoy

[justamouse]

You and I are NOT supposed to agree. Change your position NOW!!!!! :-)

 

 

Well I do not have a great deal of respect for some lawyers so maybe that will be our point of contention.

 

Well, I know some excellent ones, but for the most part where I live, there tend to be too many of them.

[justamouse]

Maybe I have trouble seeing your POV because I already have a great amount of respect for teachers? My children also show them respect. I don't see my examples as being about a lack of respect for teachers. I see them as a lack of respect for people in general.

 

I agree there need to many changes but I don't think the biggest problems are because of the teachers themselves.

 

So you're assuming that because I am critical of the profession, I have no respect for them? I'm just as critical of homeschoolers. Does that make me lack respect for them, too?

 

No one gets a free pass because we should respect them.

 

I know I've harped on this before, but a huge problem is the way teacher education programs are structured.

 

You do NOT find four-year programs ending in a teaching certificate at many selective schools, public or private. There's a few, but they are exceptions. Students at more selective universities have to go to grad school for at least one year, and often two (sometimes three), to become certified to teach. They have to pay for that themselves (there aren't TA-ships available for these programs the way there are for doctoral programs), at grad school rates.

 

I have a good friend who did her undergrad at University of Michigan, a well-regarded school. They did not have an undergraduate education program leading to certification. She went elsewhere for a master's and certification program, and now owes $60K for loans for grad school. And that isn't unusually expensive. I was accepted into a few MAT programs after I graduated college. The cheapest was about $18K/year; the most expensive was $44K for a one-year program. I ended up entering a doctoral program because that gave me free tuition and a teaching assistantship. I had really wanted to be a high school teacher, but it just wasn't feasible financially. (I am now qualified to teach English at the university level, and have been doing so for almost ten years now, but if I wanted to get my teaching certificate in Michigan, to teach high school English, I'd have to take at least two years of additional coursework.)

 

Less-selective schools are much more likely to have undergraduate education majors and certification programs. So, students at those schools are probably much more likely to become teachers.

 

If we want to see a higher caliber of teachers, we need to address this. I knew numerous people at my undergraduate university--and who I went to grad school with, and who I taught when I was in grad school at UM--who wanted to be secondary school teachers. Most were dissuaded because certification would have required paying for another 1-3 years of school. We need to encourage selective schools to have certification programs so that students can leave in four years ready to teach; to provide scholarships, grants, and/or assistantships for grad study for talented students wanting to to into teaching; to have generous loan-forgiveness programs for people who stay in teaching for a certain number of years; and/or to come up with other ways to encourage and support really good students who want to teach at the K-12 level. Right now the desire is there on the part of many good students, but the support just isn't, and the way the system is set up is a huge, huge deterrent to better students entering K-12 teaching.

 

Is that just a state problem? I may be wrong, but in NJ I don't see that problem. We even have a fast track where if you want to switch careers, you can take a few classes and get certified. I'll have to ask the teachers I know about it.

[ChandlerMom]

Well, I have family here in the US that are teachers, and are very dedicated. I also have a cousin in Finnland who is a teacher, and know what it took for her to get her job.

 

In other countries, the best in a field teach. In this country, those who can do, those who can't, teach. At least that's the model. I would point out that for all her education and for all the respect of her profession, she doesn't earn more money than a garbageman.

 

IMO, one of the biggest myths is that if we pay teacher's more, if we throw more money at education, we'll get better results. Study after study has shown what a poor motivator money really is. Respect? yes. Money? no. I went to a top performing private high school (in the US) and the teacher's earned 2/3 of what their public counterparts were paid. Many had taught in the ps system, a couple had retired from it -- they chose to teach at my school because they were wanted to.

 

If you want to fix math and science education in the country, the first thing you do is allow professionals in those fields -- physicists, engineers, mathematicians -- to teach high school accepting their graduate degrees in lieu of a teaching certificate. I know plenty of folks who would VOLUNTEER to teach math and science courses in ps *IF* they were allowed to.

 

That certification is great for the unions, but bad for our schools. Some even say we shouldn't be able to hs without one. If you need a certified teacher for crowd control, then have them in the room just for that.

[FO4UR]

It's the old question of the chicken or the egg.

 

Does it seem we have terrible teachers b/c ps teaching has become a TERRIBLE job! These people do get a college education and then are micro-managed to a pitiful fault. They work long hours in a respectLESS atmosphere and it seems pointless b/c they can't change what matters most. A teacher may know the exact issue going on with Johnny, know how to remediate the problem, have the desire to do so, but can't b/c their hands are tied with Red Tape. Smart teacher - Dumb system.

 

 

Do we (ps's in USA) do a terrible job at teaching b/c we have terrible teachers? This is true in atleast some cases. I've met them.:tongue_smilie: I've met plenty of smart teachers, but enough of "I don't need to know 5th grade math b/c I teach 4th grade." and "I seen it happen where I was sitting at!" teaching 2nd grade and more...it's a self-perpetuating problem.

 

 

If teaching were a profession where my success was 100% placed upon my skill and work (and I was rewarded accordingly), I'd be highly tempted to teach where I could earn a paycheck. Maybe I should move to Finland. "Autonomous" sounds like heaven...it sounds like a professional profession.

[justamouse]

"Autonomous" sounds like heaven...it sounds like a professional profession.

 

I think that's part of the solution, most definitely. You don't micromanage your top performers-you let them do what they're good at.

[dirty ethel rackham]

You do NOT find four-year programs ending in a teaching certificate at many selective schools, public or private. There's a few, but they are exceptions. Students at more selective universities have to go to grad school for at least one year, and often two (sometimes three), to become certified to teach. They have to pay for that themselves (there aren't TA-ships available for these programs the way there are for doctoral programs), at grad school rates.

 

 

I don't think this is accurate.

U of Michigan certainly does have a bachelor's of education program that culminates in earning a teaching certificate. You do not need a masters in their program.

Northwestern University has a secondary education bachelors that culminates in a teaching certificate.

University of Illinois has a bachelors in education that leads to a teaching certificate. I was in that program for a while.

 

Around here, a masters in education without classroom teaching experience is essentially worthless. No one wants to hire them because the paygrade is too high. Most teachers here gets their bachelors in education, teach for a while, then get their masters to bump up the pay grade, often at night and during the summers. Also, according the administrators here, teachers who come out of schools traditionally known for teaching (not necessarily top-tier universities) tend to be the better prepared teachers. Their education is much more practical than the highfalutin universities where the emphasis is educational policy.

[FO4UR]

I think that's part of the solution, most definitely. You don't micromanage your top performers-you let them do what they're good at.

 

 

Exactly!!!

 

 

 

Let them do the job they are paid to perform. Let them fail. Let them reap the rewards of failure. Let them innovate. Let them profit from their own innovations.

 

Imagine a world where Steve Jobs was micromanaged. Imagine a world where a mind like Steve Jobs was let loose on elementary school curricula and practices.

Edited November 8, 2011 by 3blessingmom
grammar gets funny late at night...

[Joker]

If you want to fix math and science education in the country, the first thing you do is allow professionals in those fields -- physicists, engineers, mathematicians -- to teach high school accepting their graduate degrees in lieu of a teaching certificate. I know plenty of folks who would VOLUNTEER to teach math and science courses in ps *IF* they were allowed to.

 

I've always wondered why they make professionals get certificates at this level. Dh has a math degree and taught college classes while on base in the Marine Corps but he would have to go back for certification to teach high school. It makes no sense.