Another math recommendation

[Guest]

My dsd (11) that has autism is currently working on a 2nd grade math level. She doesn't have many of her math facts memorized, but we are just going to keep practicing those. Right now she has to use manipulatives 98% of the time for adding/subtracting. She does talk fairly well, but is still speech delayed. She also has a very bad memory. Can you recommend a math program that is high in repetition, and direct and to the point in language/instruction? She does not do well with abstract, or mental tricks. So, for now we just need rote learning. Do you think saxon, cle, etc?

 

One thing I am very frustrated with is her inability to understand less and more. She has no understanding when I try to explain to her 6 is more that 2:001_huh:. I don't know if she actually does understand the concept, but she doesn't understand the words more/less. I have tried gesturing with my arms big for more, and small for less, but she still doesn't get it. Do you have any advice? I am starting to wonder what I should do with her. She reads very good, and writes well. Math is just not going well at all.

[PeterPan]

Summer, do you mind if we ask about her speech and whether she has been getting therapy? I assume she has. And have they evaluated her to determine if it's an expressive-receptive delay (ie. both are delayed) or if it's just the expressive? See if it's the latter, then that, in an autistic child, would likely be caused by praxis (motor control). Praxis can show up anywhere (oral, verbal, etc. etc.). Anyways, if it's apraxia, it doesn't respond well to regular therapy and needs a different kind. My ds is not on the spectrum (as far as we know), but he is getting PROMPT therapy for verbal apraxia. This therapist works with numerous children on the spectrum, and in fact I have met a lady bringing her non-verbal early teen dc there to see if he can speak. Anyways, I just wanted to throw that out, as it seems like you are having basic, reasonable questions that an SLP ought to be able to answer.

 

Next, that lady with the non-verbal teen ds on the spectrum was telling me about a method called Rapid Prompting that she uses to teach her ds. You might google it. Once you find the website, there are videos demonstrating it.

 

So Rapid Prompting is a teaching method for non-verbal children. PROMPT uses sensory-motor connections to improve speech with apraxia. Two different things.

[Guest]

She did get speech therapy when she was in public school. When she was diagnosed with autism at 2 she had both receptive and expressive speech delay. She was pretty severe, and got therapy from 2-8. I have been homeschooling her since she was 8, and she hasn't got any therapy since then. She actually talks a lot more now then she did when she was in school. She does talk fairly well. I mean people in public and at church don't even know that she has autism. She understands, and does talk a lot. I think she has more trouble now with expressive language. Although, new math concepts just seem to bounce off her brain. I really don't know how to explain it right.....it is so complicated. She just seems really immature and stuck at a 1st grade level mentally right now.

 

I am about to put her into public school....although I don't know if that will be any better. When I pulled her out she didn't hardly make sense when she talked, couldn't do math, couldn't read, etc. She had tantrums and hid under the teachers desk, and they let her! She is now reading, writing, add./subt. with manip., and she has no outbursts. She is able to go to church functions with our other kids and fit right in. So....I really dont know if public school is the right thing. I am just running out of ideas.....I feel like we are getting no where when it comes to math right now.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Guest

[Misty]

So....I really dont know if public school is the right thing. I am just running out of ideas.....I feel like we are getting no where when it comes to math right now.

 

I imagine they would get no where with her in math at the public school as well. Sounds like she is thriving at home.. Why change that? She probably has a math disability.. She can be accommodated throughout life for this. Just work with her at her level and progress when she is ready.. don't stress about the grade level. That's her level and that's all that's relevant. That's all that matters.

 

As for good rote, mastery programs.. Saxon would fit this description.. However, I think it would be a torturous program for a kid on the spectrum with math issues (I have one). I know what you mean about skipping the mental tricks and full understanding and just going with rote. It can be extra work for these kids with the wrong program. But honestly, RightStart Math saved us from math hell when my oldest daughter was 8. She just was not getting it.. I had tried every program on the market and nothing worked for her.. RightStart was the only thing I didn't throw out the window! It's full of the "extras", but it's also very gentle and easy to understand. Fully scripted and fun too.. My daughter began to enjoy and understand math. We no longer had the daily math drama.. She just wasn't getting the traditional approach at all.. She needed the manipulatives, the alternative explanations, and the visual of the abacus. It all came together for her with RS. My daughter has great difficulty with abstract concepts.. RightStart makes math concrete. This is why it worked for her. I would highly recommend looking into it.. http://www.alabacus.com

 

Now, on the other hand, my 3rd daughter hates RightStart.. I think she just doesn't want to sit through a lesson though.. She wants to go straight to the workbook and be done as quickly as possible.. I'm still figuring this kid out. :tongue_smilie:

[happycc]

It is the best with these kinds of kids.

 

 

I haven;t found anything else...I have tried Saxon, Math U See, Miquon, Kumon, MPM Math, Abeka, BJU, public school , textbooks, Singapore, Calvert Math, Semple Math....

 

I think one should always start with Right Start and then when the kids are ready to move on to less concrete you can try other ways...I will be adding Teaching Textbooks to my daughters Right Start.

 

You will have to tweak Right Start some and add additional review. My daughter doesn;t per se like Right Start (she doesn;t like anything math related) but it is working and she is learning. In the past she knew her math facts (memorized) but didn;t understand it. Now she does get it.

Edited November 7, 2011 by happycc

[Guest]

Thank you both for the RightStart recommendation!

[Geo]

I personally don't think RightStart is such a good idea. Your daughter's difficulties sound like dyscalculia, a developmental learning disability. My ds 9 (almost 10), has this. I used and owned levels A-D of RS with my daughter, but couldn't even get past a couple of lessons with my son. RS is all well and good for the neurotypical child, maybe even a slow learner...but not a dyscalculic. Too many assumptions that the user has a certain intuitive grasp or number sense already present. I think MUS would be a better choice, or even Developmental Math by Saad.

[PeterPan]

It is true my dd couldn't memorize her facts with the RS methods. She did well with the conceptual instruction, at least for the first few lessons. So it's just something to watch. RS approaches them their way, but if it's not clicking, look for more ways. In retrospect, I should have gotten something like an ipad (which they didn't have back then) to work on them. In kids with these issues, I think you need a bit more explicit practice to build automaticity than what RS thinks. She could do them in a game context, process them as language (which of course words in a game are), and still not have them when she went to do her worksheets, grrr. There were too many steps (motor control, write the numbers, math sense, word name, etc.). So yes, I agree with Geo that it's something to watch.

 

I think it's good to think Tortoise and Hare. Just keep working and working and working on it. I would also look into using sign with her. ASL uses the same part of the brain as speech (because it's a language), so it's a win-win on a lot of fronts. It's both developing that part of the brain and bridging where you're having issues.

 

Keep working on it and keep it real. My dd drew Pacman people on her less than, greater than signs for YEARS. She probably still would if those problems were there. Some people need the math to be REAL. R&S would be another to look at. It's not going to use manips or anything, so you'll bring that part. But it has a progression that works for some kids. They'll send you an entire grade level sample (nice and thick, to give you a really good feel for it) for FREE.

[Guest]

Thank you both for the MUS recommendation. A couple years back we actually used MUS Alpha for her, and she did good with it. I never should have switched and tried other things. Knowing her...I think that she would do better with MUS. Plus, I am more comfortable teaching it.

[Guest]

At what point should I have her start using a calculator for math facts? She understands how to do addition/subtraction....she just has memory problems. How long do I keep making her use manipulatives? I think she is always going to have severe problems with math. We are currently using ACE math with manipulatives which is a super easy curriculum...but not for her.

[javafinch]

Have you tried touch math? It was the thing for my son! You just memorize where the touch points are on 1-9 and then you have build-in manipulatives for life! We previously used MUS and it was a failure.

[Guest]

Have you tried touch math? It was the thing for my son! You just memorize where the touch points are on 1-9 and then you have build-in manipulatives for life! We previously used MUS and it was a failure.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. No, we have not tried that. I remember when I was in kindergarten/first grade that is what they used! It is sad I still know where all the points are:tongue_smilie:. I am not sure if we need that though. She understands add/subt., she is just having a hard time memorizing some of the larger facts.

[Guest]

Your daughter's difficulties sound like dyscalculia, a developmental learning disability.

 

 

I am really thinking this is her problem.

[MyLittleBears]

Have you tried touch math? It was the thing for my son! You just memorize where the touch points are on 1-9 and then you have build-in manipulatives for life! We previously used MUS and it was a failure.

 

Diane Craft has something similar. They are math cards with with points on the numbers and a story to go with them. My older ds had trouble remember his facts and I think we went over the stories about 2-3 times and bingo, they were permanent. I think they are about $6 on her site.

[rafiki]

.

[Heathermomster]

My 12 yo DS has maths disorder. He sits in a regular classroom now and will come home in the Fall. I homeschooled 2nd semester, 5th grade and did the following:

 

1. Read the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa.

 

2. Read two books by Ronit Bird. I'm Belle3 over at Amazon, so read my reviews.

 

3. Read a book published by ETA Cuisenaire called Mathematics Made Meaningful.

 

4. Purchased Cuisenaire rods, base 10 blocks, and a Slavonic Abacus. Using these books and the concrete manipulatives, I taught DS slowly, using all the authors recommendations.

 

DS knows his times tables, can multiply/divide decimal numbers, perform fraction work, and work probability problems. He is prone to careless math errors involving borrows and carries, copy errors, and hates to simplify fractions. He can read a clock, but he is not solid with currency.

 

To get an idea of my son's difficulties, there is a 55 pt spread between processing speed and verbal comprehension, and a 45 pt spread between working memory and verbal comp.

 

He keeps a simple calculator and 12x12 times table nearby. We don't really use flash cards. Forget about timed math drills. We use the computer for practice where he can key in the answer. Touch Math was a joke. DS requires a top down, approach where he learns the underlying concept. He is very strong with abstract reasoning and verbal comprehension. Metric graph paper keeps his work organized. We also used colored pencils and pens. Math mnemonics are helpful. We worked in short intervals, spending no more than 10 minutes teaching a concept and 20 or so minutes practicing. These kids generally have poor working memory. Too much time will stress and tax them unnecessarily.

 

These books really helped me. YMMV...

 

For basic math facts, work on subitizing first, then use the abacus and rods. You have to go slow.

 

Blessings, Heather

 

eta: Lindamood-Bell has a math program called Cloud 9 math that is multi-sensory. That program may be worth a look.

 

http://teachmath.openschoolnetwork.ca/Subitizing.htm

http://www.xavier-educational-software.co.uk/content/Abacus/lesson.html

http://www.xavier-educational-software.co.uk/swgal/abacus/index.html

http://customgraph.com/SG/piart.php?art=660 free printable cm graph paper

http://www.mathusee.com/wp-includes/popup_math_drill.php free on-line drills

Edited February 17, 2012 by Heathermomster

[javafinch]

Thanks for the recommendation. No, we have not tried that. I remember when I was in kindergarten/first grade that is what they used! It is sad I still know where all the points are:tongue_smilie:. I am not sure if we need that though. She understands add/subt., she is just having a hard time memorizing some of the larger facts.

 

 

If she's still using her manipulatives for add/sub, though, I would consider touchmath. If not (your OP was back in Nov I see), then probably not. You can see videos about it on youtube. They don't have much of a 'curriculum', though, so all I would recommend is learning the touchpoints and getting some of their printable add/sub worksheets and just using the concept as a supplement to whatever other curriculum you use. Again, you said you're past this so just ignore me ... I am just responding again just in case she *is* still using manipulatives ... then keep it in mind :)

 

With my son I tried to teach him to be able to 'understand' and 'conceptualize' math, but he just cannot do it. He NEEDS to count (or memorize). I remember with MUS he would talk about how bad 'counting' was. That's great for the kid who can 'get' it, but did not work with my son. When he was completely LOST trying to play a game that required add/sub because he didn't have his blocks with him and he was 9 1/2 years old, I knew I had to do something different. :(

[happycc]

I am 40 yrs old and I still count on my fingers for addition and subtraction. I manage in this world just fine. Most of the time my addition and subtraction facts have improved as time went on as in with practice during math problems. But in general I still count unfortunately-actually I count a lot.

 

Nonetheless I went to college and did well in calculus and discrete mathematics. I took physics and chemistry and biochemistry.

 

I am sure it is awesome to be able to memorize all your facts and to learn all the tricks but it isn;t life or death. If your child can;t memorize their facts then they can't and will just need time to count unfortunately. However I have learned just keep moving forward in math.

 

So even though we use Rightstart B with my daughter and at times we get stuck for a bit, I ensure we move on by also using Teaching Textbooks and at least she is getting exposure to other things than just memorizing of facts. The main thing is that she understands the concepts that that when you add you are putting together two parts to make a whole amount.

 

I have a child who had memorized her facts but she didn't understand the concept part until Rightstart B.

[MomatHWTK]

The greedy alligator always wants to eat the biggest amount. I draw teeth sometimes to illustrate. < chomp chomp chomp ;)

 

ETA: Memorizing math facts stalled my DS for too long and we've moved past that. I help with the math facts or let Ds use a calculator.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I have not read the other replies, so please forgive me if this has been solved or you already had this recommendation. Have you checked out calculadders? I would not start by timing the tests, simply work through them. Every single day. The same page for 2 or 3 weeks as needed. If you need to, start out with half a page. They are very repetitive and work great for rote memorization. My kids do those daily for math warm up and I can not tell you the amazing changes I am seeing. My 1st grader has HFA among other issues and this is awesome for him. Start with the very first ladder. Simple, just write the number that comes next. Do that until she can do it within the time allotted. Then move on to the next and so on. They are awesome! Here is the website, to the left you can click on calculadders after you read about it. I would recommend you get the masterpaks. There are 2. All of the books are contained in those.

[Ottakee]

Touch math might help her with the basic math facts.

 

I really liked CLE for the basic, straight forward, systematic math instruction.

 

Honestly, at 11 with her struggles, if she understands what she is doing, I would use the calculator.

 

If she can use a calculator for more advanced problems and can tell time and count money, life can be just fine. With the use of cell phones most people have a calculator with them at all times.

[almondbutterandjelly]

I don't know if this will help you, but I wanted to mention it just in case...

For years, we had a giant number line around our living room. When we got to more and less, my dd did not understand it at all until I pointed out that if it was less, it was to the left of the number. If it was more, it was to the right of the number. That's when "more and less" clicked for her. Apparently, she needed that visual explanation.

 

That said, she still can't remember which sign is greater than or less than. We just got a cute game from Didax that I'm hoping will help.

 

Also, the Mathstart books have a couple books on More or Less. I believe one is called Just Enough Carrots and one might actually be called More or Less.

 

Hope this helps.

[happycc]

I love a lot of ideas from this company and have used them.

 

 

 

LOTS of hands on stuff.

 

http://www.primaryconcepts.com/math/count-sort-stamp.asp