Favorite Logic Stage Grammar?

[Halcyon]

I'm full of questions today (can you tell I'm in planning mode?)

 

I love the look of R&S but it looks way too religious--I don't mind religious content (heck, we're using Henle) but this seems reaaaallly religious. We've been using GWG and will be finished with GWG 5. DS is fine with grammar when he writes--rarely makes grammatical errors. He also did well on his standardized test last year. But after using MCT with my younger, I feel he could be getting a lot more out of a grammar program. Unfortunately, MCT is NOT a fit for him--he needs more straightforward, more drill, and probably more workbook-y. VIE? We looked at that, but it's very pricey.

 

THoughts? What have you liked? ALternatively, we could forego grammar as he is retaining a lot from Henle.

[HollyDay]

We used AG for my youngest and BJU for my oldest. If you want more review, then something like BJU or Abeka might fit the bill.

[HollyDay]

:iagree:

How about Hake? I haven't used it, but I think it looks very thorough.

[hsmom2011]

n/m

[Halcyon]

Hmm. Going to check out Hake. What about Voyages in English? It looks like all of their books are online for free (unless I'm missing something??)

[Halcyon]

Hmmm, Hake looks nice! Why haven't I looked at this before? I have to do more investigating, as christianbook.com only has a few sample pages. For those who have BTDT, would you go to Hake 6 after GWG 5? Is there a placement test? Thank you!

[lewelma]

KISS grammar is free online and continues through the logic stage. It is secular. The grade 5 workbooks focus on verbals, so is more appropriately considered 6th or even 7th grade. We have been using KISS for 4 years, and love it; however, do be warned that the website is hard to navigate.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Mom-ninja.]

So you don't like GWG? I was going to get GWG 6 now that we're done with FLL 4 and ALL is not going to be available.

[Halcyon]

Kleine Hexe-We like GWG. After doing MCT with my younger, I feel that grammar could be more rewarding...is that the right word? I just feel it's a bit too rote, and while his retention is fine, and GWG does the job, I just wonder if something else would be more enjoyable..can grammar be enjoyable? I know MCT is for my younger, but older wouldn't like it.

 

That said, when I asked him which part of grammar he felt helped him learn the best, he told me he liked the free grammar book I downloaded for him with the stories about the Noun, the Pronoun, etc. Can't remember the name now.......arg. Anyway, that surprised me.

 

That said, we have definitely liked GWG, as long as it's coupled with memory work and occasional spiral review, of which I don't think there is enough. (I make up tests about once a month incorporating stuff from all the prior years/months) We may indeed stick with it. I'm just......exploring ;)

[Halcyon]

KISS grammar is free online and continues through the logic stage. It is secular. The grade 5 workbooks focus on verbals, so is more appropriately considered 6th or even 7th grade. We have been using KISS for 4 years, and love it; however, do be warned that the website is hard to navigate.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

 

Thank you! I can't deal with the website, unfortunately.

[abbeyej]

I really like Stewart, but it's probably 1-3 years away for your still.

[RootAnn]

Are you using the GWG tests that are available now? I agree that grammar isn't *fun* with GWG, but it seems to spiral enough for my kids (GWG 3 & 5). My older had more *understanding* of grammar last year with Writing Tales 1 than with GWG 3, but I was happy enough with GWG 3 to make my dd#2 do it this year. (We don't do GWG every year.)

 

I, too, am wondering what to choose for grammar for next year (for my oldest).

 

:lurk5:

[Halcyon]

I really like Stewart, but it's probably 1-3 years away for your still.

 

 

Do you mean this? Looks very interesting. I like the open-ended nature of the questions. (I dislike fill-in-the-blanks, which seem almost useless).It also looks like it does an excellent job relating grammar to writing itself. Doesn't seem like it would be over the head of my rising 5th grader, but need to find more sample pages. Thank you--I hadn't heard of this.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Halcyon

[Halcyon]

Are you using the GWG tests that are available now? I agree that grammar isn't *fun* with GWG, but it seems to spiral enough for my kids (GWG 3 & 5). My older had more *understanding* of grammar last year with Writing Tales 1 than with GWG 3, but I was happy enough with GWG 3 to make my dd#2 do it this year. (We don't do GWG every year.)

 

I, too, am wondering what to choose for grammar for next year (for my oldest).

 

:lurk5:

 

 

Yes, we use the tests, but I make my own also, as their "tests" are very easy and IMO don't test true comprehension. I make mine more challenging and open-ended. For example, rather than having the student simply fill in the blank with the word PREDICATE (the test having pre-written the rest of the definition, as in "A _______ noun follows a linking verb and......") I ask the question "Using a complete sentence, define a predicate noun. Compose a sentence that includes a predicate noun, and then underline the predicate noun. How does a predicate noun differ from a direct object?"

[abbeyej]

Yes, that's it. Rainbow has it here: http://rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?subject=7&category=1807

 

In my first edition WTM, it's recommended for advanced logic stage students. In the newest edition, it's recommended for 11th (the first two books) and 12th (the third book). According to the publisher, the first book is for use in 7th or 8th, the second in 9th or 10th, and the third in 11th or 12th. Ds did the first two books in 7th grade, is doing Killgallon this year (very different approach, but fits well in a year when ds is focusing on some creative writing, especially since he has done so much formal grammar in English, Latin, and Greek), and he'll do the last Stewart in 9th.

[Halcyon]

Thank you Abbey-I just noticed these in the latest WTM (I hadn't gotten to high school yet). They look very good. I might order them for next year (they're inexpensive enough to "try out") and if they're too advanced hold them for a year or two.

 

I am liking the look of Hake, to be sure, but again, wondering if it's a case of "the grass is greener" :001_huh: I always tend to write up extra review anyway, so I'll have to think whether changing things now is worth it.

[Cynful]

I'm waiting for our Hake 5 to arrive this week. We were going to do ALL but ..... since that won't work, I've had my eye on this for a while. I'd be happy to give more of a review once I receive it or if you have any specific questions on it, just let me know. I could even send a few samples your way.

[NittanyJen]

I haven't used it much yet, but have you checked out Grammarlogues? It looks kind of interesting... Straightforward instruction, but more interesting and challenging material. I don't really know enough to evaluate it yet though.

[Halcyon]

I haven't used it much yet, but have you checked out Grammarlogues? It looks kind of interesting... Straightforward instruction, but more interesting and challenging material. I don't really know enough to evaluate it yet though.

 

 

Never heard of it! Off to look! ETA: looks interesting, i just wish it was a workbook format!! I like the use of original texts!

Edited November 8, 2011 by Halcyon

[Amy in CO]

My son started the year with Hake, 7th grade book. I hadn't heard about ALL coming out yet, so that is what we went with. A little background on him, he completed FLL 1-4, had a reveiw/easy year, then AG season 1.

 

We made it to lesson 24, out of about 100 with Hake. It isn't that he didn't like it, it was just too easy. He was looking at my 4th grader doing FLL 3 and the level of diagramming required of him (ds4th is in about lesson 90). Then my 7th grader looked at his book, and just felt like he wasn't learning anything. He was given big sentences, but only "allowed" to diagram the subject and verb.

 

I looked ahead, and he still had a ways to go before he would add more to the diagram. If this was the 5th grade book, and diagramming was just introduced, I could see the constant repetition of just subject verb diagrams. But it is the 7th grade book. I feel that it should be doing more than what it is.

 

So we switched to ALL, right before it was announced that it wouldn't be released right away after all. Ds7th decided to go ahead and finish the lessons provided with ALL (he loves it), and then he had to try something on the shelf, because I didn't want to buy another program. He doesn't want AG, too much diagramming. He doesn't want Hake, no challenge. So he chose Applications of Grammar We will be using the 8th grade book as soon as we run out of ALL lessons. It is Christian.

 

I also liked the look of the Stewart books linked earlier, so if Applications doesn't work, we may try the Stewart books next year.

[Capt_Uhura]

Which of the Stewart english books do you need if you are just interested in grammar?

[Twigs]

Hmm. Going to check out Hake. What about Voyages in English? It looks like all of their books are online for free (unless I'm missing something??)

 

Can you provide a link for the free books?

Thanks

[abbeyej]

Which of the Stewart english books do you need if you are just interested in grammar?

 

They go in this order:

 

Book 1: Principles Plus (publisher recommends grades 7 or 8 -- WTM says first semester grade 11)

 

Book 2: Grammar Plus (publisher: 9-10; WTM second semester 11)

 

Book 3: Writing Plus (publisher: 11-12; WTM 12)

 

I would start from the beginning even with an older child. It's easy enough to do the first two books in a year if necessary, but the third is quite a bit thicker.

 

I probably would not start Stewart 1 with a child with little grammar background. It does begin with a review of parts of speech, but jumps in pretty quickly to more advanced concepts.

[Capt_Uhura]

Thanks!

 

Capt Uhura

[Halcyon]

They go in this order:

 

Book 1: Principles Plus (publisher recommends grades 7 or 8 -- WTM says first semester grade 11)

 

Book 2: Grammar Plus (publisher: 9-10; WTM second semester 11)

 

Book 3: Writing Plus (publisher: 11-12; WTM 12)

 

I would start from the beginning even with an older child. It's easy enough to do the first two books in a year if necessary, but the third is quite a bit thicker.

 

I probably would not start Stewart 1 with a child with little grammar background. It does begin with a review of parts of speech, but jumps in pretty quickly to more advanced concepts.

 

 

Seems odd that the WTM grade recs are so out of whack with the publisher's. Weird.

 

Do you think a child who is doing Latin and has finished GWG5 would be able to jump into Stewart Principles Plus?

[Create Your Ritual]

I remember doing a search recently at Rainbow Resource after finding out ALL wouldn't coming out anytime soon. The Stewart English Program was one of just a small handful that I actually liked the looks of. I think the only other one that really resonated with me was the grammar that goes with CW if I chose to move into that next year.

[Create Your Ritual]

Stewart English doesn't have a huge sample on RR though and the first book's TC seemed fairly straight forward. You mentioned though that Book 1 moves out of basic 8 parts of speech fairly quickly? Can you be more specific about what else it covers in Book 1? Thanks

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Another possibility if you don't like the cost of VIE is Exercises in English also by Loyola Press which many schools use as a stand alone product. It is strictly grammar and covers grammar extensively.

 

As for the free books, there are none. You can see virtually the whole VIE book at Loyola Press which is why I chose VIE and EIE:D

[abbeyej]

Seems odd that the WTM grade recs are so out of whack with the publisher's. Weird.

 

Do you think a child who is doing Latin and has finished GWG5 would be able to jump into Stewart Principles Plus?

 

In the first ed. WTM, they recommend Stewart for logic stage (late logic / early rhetoric?)... I'm not 100% sure why they changed the recommendations. Perhaps just a result of shuffling other recommendations?

 

I haven't used GWG and I'm not entirely sure whether the 5th grade level would completely prepare a kid or not. I suspect it depends more on the child and whether he or she is comfortable writing and has good facility with language. I would say 11 or 12 years old is pretty much a minimum even for a kid with strong language arts skills, though there are always exceptions of course.

[Halcyon]

Another possibility if you don't like the cost of VIE is Exercises in English also by Loyola Press which many schools use as a stand alone product. It is strictly grammar and covers grammar extensively.

 

As for the free books, there are none. You can see virtually the whole VIE book at Loyola Press which is why I chose VIE and EIE:D

 

 

Yes, we used the Exercises in English in 2nd--I actually liked it-very straightforward. Thank you for the reminder.

[Halcyon]

Has anyone used Exercises in English by Treanor? Looks substantial and straightforward but i just can't find enough sample pages online.

[Halcyon]

Stewart English doesn't have a huge sample on RR though and the first book's TC seemed fairly straight forward. You mentioned though that Book 1 moves out of basic 8 parts of speech fairly quickly? Can you be more specific about what else it covers in Book 1? Thanks

 

I'd be interested in hearing this too, thanks!

 

ETA: I found better sample on christianbook.com I think this is what we will go with for next year. We have enjoyed GWG, and I will definitely use it for my younger, but I think older is ready for more of a challenge. If not, I can always save it!

Edited November 16, 2011 by Halcyon

[mcconnellboys]

I've heard that Winston is sound, but I have not used it.

 

I switched to Easy Grammar because my son needed some remediation and it is all about the drill.

 

I used Abeka with my older son all the way through and it was less religious than R&S. It is also very sound. While I still really like it, my younger son was getting lost in it and not retaining the info....

[Alison in KY]

I like Rod and Staff, and I also like Winson Grammar. I'm considering trying the Saxon English for 7th grade.

 

Alison

[Jane Elliot]

I'm full of questions today (can you tell I'm in planning mode?)

 

I love the look of R&S but it looks way too religious--I don't mind religious content (heck, we're using Henle) but this seems reaaaallly religious. We've been using GWG and will be finished with GWG 5. DS is fine with grammar when he writes--rarely makes grammatical errors. He also did well on his standardized test last year. But after using MCT with my younger, I feel he could be getting a lot more out of a grammar program. Unfortunately, MCT is NOT a fit for him--he needs more straightforward, more drill, and probably more workbook-y. VIE? We looked at that, but it's very pricey.

 

THoughts? What have you liked? ALternatively, we could forego grammar as he is retaining a lot from Henle.

 

I personally like R&S. If you like the look of R&S but don't want the religious content, you would probably really like Warriner's. Although, if you can tolerate the religious content of Henle, I can't imagine R&S would be over the top for you. (I almost couldn't take the amount religious content in Henle and we ARE religious.)

 

Don't forego grammar. Just don't.

[Create Your Ritual]

Halycon, have you figured out whether it's going to be Stewart or KISS yet? lol. I have also thrown CW into the mix and the grammar that goes with Homer... grief... I am kind of liking KISS at the moment as I downloaded Grade 6 workbooks to peruse through. I need to go back and look at the Stewart samples now. ;-)

[Create Your Ritual]

There is something about Stewart that reminds me of SWBs ALL.. it might just be all the recent Verb Tense work though and the fact that it showed that in the christianbook sample. I need to work through a few weeks of KISS I think to decide... oh and I need someone to sell me the CW Homer Core Text already!!!

[trafal]

I have not read this whole thread so this may be a repeat.

Have you considered Grammar and Writing by Curtis Hake? It is specifically for middle school students. There are 4 books in the series- Grammar and Writing 5-8. The series is published by Saxon..

 

Pros- The grammar instruction is rigorous, incremental, and systematic. Dictation and journal prompts are also included.

 

Cons- I do not not like the writing instruction. it is not a complete writing program. The books are softbound and printed on extremely cheap and thin paper.

[Halcyon]

There is something about Stewart that reminds me of SWBs ALL.. it might just be all the recent Verb Tense work though and the fact that it showed that in the christianbook sample. I need to work through a few weeks of KISS I think to decide... oh and I need someone to sell me the CW Homer Core Text already!!!

 

Yes, I am comparing with KISS also at this point. :tongue_smilie:

[Halcyon]

I have not read this whole thread so this may be a repeat.

Have you considered Grammar and Writing by Curtis Hake? It is specifically for middle school students. There are 4 books in the series- Grammar and Writing 5-8. The series is published by Saxon..

 

Pros- The grammar instruction is rigorous, incremental, and systematic. Dictation and journal prompts are also included.

 

Cons- I do not not like the writing instruction. it is not a complete writing program. The books are softbound and printed on extremely cheap and thin paper.

 

 

Ack, at this point I can't remember WHAT I've looked at--yes, I think I've looked at Hake. I liked it, but seem to recall it being too formulaic? Maybe I'm remember wrong.....

[Halcyon]

I personally like R&S. If you like the look of R&S but don't want the religious content, you would probably really like Warriner's. Although, if you can tolerate the religious content of Henle, I can't imagine R&S would be over the top for you. (I almost couldn't take the amount religious content in Henle and we ARE religious.)

 

Don't forego grammar. Just don't.

 

 

I am off to look at Warriner's. Oh, the options!!

 

(Oh, and while I think I can handle ONE course with a heavily religious content, I don't know if I can handle two ;) We love Henle for the rigor, the grammar and the incremental approach, but it DOES have a lot of religion!)

[Halcyon]

I am off to look at Warriner's. Oh, the options!!

 

(Oh, and while I think I can handle ONE course with a heavily religious content, I don't know if I can handle two ;) We love Henle for the rigor, the grammar and the incremental approach, but it DOES have a lot of religion!)

 

 

 

Re Warriner's: I think I'm in love.........It is REALLY like Henle, isn't it? Found samples of an earlier version here for anyone who is interested.