Does anyone else feel like they are pulling their child into the logic stage?

[Roxy Roller]

I constantly feel like I am pulling my DD12 into the logic stage. We only started using some classical education components two years ago. We started K4 with Abeka and continued that for a few years before we had busywork burnout, then we struggled for a couple of years when I had the 4 younger boys to wrangle. Now I feel a little like I am failing her. She is a little behind in some subjects and on par with others. She was a late reader, and her spelling and comprehension sometimes is lacking because she still guesses at words she doesn't know, even though I did take SWB's advice and I ran my 4 older kids through Saxon Phonics 2 last year to make sure the phonics was covered.

 

I still have to go over most of her work with her and she only does a few things independently. She is only in the beginning stages of puberty and has not matured yet like most of her friends. Could this be why I am frustrated? I want her work to be challenging(I was bored silly in school), but I want her to feel successful too.

 

I guess I am looking for advice as to what I can do to help her move into the logic stage. I feel high school looming and it is stressing me out.

 

Oh, here is a list of what she is doing:

 

MUS Pre-Algebra (I tried ChalkDust BCM at the beginning of the year, but it was a bust.)

Key to Fractions, Decimals and Percents(to brush up on the basics before Algebra)

Growing with Grammar 5(she will be moving into 6 after Christmas)

WWS(I really have to go over everything before she will do any of it herself)

Daily Skill Builders in Phonics and Spelling(she needs constant phonics review)

Spelling Plus(we are working through this book so that she has the 1000 most commonly misspelled words)

Chronicles of Narnia with PP Guides(the guides are done orally with me)

Vocabulary from Classical Roots 4(we just started this and she will go through 4, 5 and some of 6 this year)

Grammar of Poetry(once a week with me)

Getting Started with Latin(with me)

History(MARR with the rest of the kids - we are loosely using TruthQuest/Biblioplan)

Apologia General Science

Building Thinking Skills

Fallacy Detective

Apologia Who is God?(together)

AWANA Trek

[thowell]

I really don't have any advice for you as I am in the same place with dd11. She sounds exactly like your dd. I will be watching this thread for any advice and suggestions. :grouphug: you are not alone!!

[Lori D.]

First (((hugs))) and encouragement Roxanne! Sounds like you are doing a fine job -- NOT failing your DD at all! You have your "finger on the pulse" of her needs; you've made curriculum changes as needed; and you are working with her *where she is*. That's wonderful! :)

 

 

Second, a reassurance: every child matures at a very different rate. Not just physically, but also in different brain areas (abstract thinking; logic; reasoning; etc.). We must be VERY careful not to look at those three stages in WTM and assume that just because the theory says that children in 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th grade are in the "logic stage" doesn't mean that is true of all children. Remember that good old bell curve -- there are going to be a few students who are way to the left of the peak of the curve who enter the Logic Stage early -- most fit in somewhere in the curve -- and a few students enter the Logic Stage later, way to the right end of the bell curve. So, patience, and acceptance of who your child is (and where your child is developmentally) can help. Sounds like your DD is right at the beginning of the process; I bet when you look back in 2 years, you will see that she HAS progressed into the Logic Stage. But it's not fair to expect her to be halfway through her marathon right NOW when she JUST got off the starting line! :)

 

 

Third, realistically, middle schoolers are not typically working very independently unless they are of a certain learning type, are advanced students, and/or are very self-motivated students. (I had none of those qualities in either of our DSs; hence, not much independent working until at least 9th grade for the older DS, and well into high school (11th/12th) for younger DS. ... sigh ...)

 

 

What are your expectations of what the Logic Stage should look like? Here's what SWB says in her article "Academic Excellence", on this page of the WTM website:

 

" “Logic stage” (middle school years, roughly grades 5-8)

The development of analytical thinking skills and abstract thought.

Strengths: Developing ability for abstraction and criticism

Weaknesses: Immature exercise of those skills

Logic: learn to evaluate validity of arguments

Literature: begin to ask questions about characters, plots,

motivations, techniques

Spelling: increasing application of rules to written work

Grammar: diagramming and outlining

Writing: outlining and using outlines for compositions

Mathematics: move towards abstraction (pre-algebra and

algebra)

History: focus on cause and effect, on chronology and relationships

between countries

Science: experimentation of the scientific disciplines."

 

 

Sounds like you are right there, in all the programs you are using, what you are doing, and how your DD is responding: "Developing ability for abstraction and criticism" -- but "immature exercise of those skills."

 

Notice SWB says "DEVELOPING". That means "beginning to develop". That means EXPOSURE to these skills (which you are doing through many of the programs you listed that you are using), and BEGINNING to put them into practice. Notice, too, SWB says "immature exercise of those skills". That means this is a PROCESS . SWB lists the Logic Stage as roughly covering 4 grades; so we need to remember that it will take our children several YEARS to:

- step into this stage

- begin to develop those skills

- and to finally become competent at it

 

 

Biologically speaking, most students do not BEGIN to develop the abstract thinking portions of the brain before age 12 -- age 14 is more typical. That's why so many students do MUCH better waiting to start Algebra 1 until grade 9, when their brains have actually begun to mature the abstract thinking they will need in order to "get" those abstract Algebra concepts. Also, analysis/discussion at this stage is still very simple -- mostly you, the parent asking a LOT of leading questions to help guide the student into making connections and comparisons. (Not much initiation of insights, analysis, criticism, etc. until we'd been doing it about 4 years -- somewhere along about 10th grade.)

 

Again, from that same SWB article above, here's what a Logic Stage literature discussion/analysis looks like:

 

"Talk. Then you’re going to talk to the child about the book: What is or isn’t important in the plot, whether the characters are heroes or villains.


For a novel/story:
Who is this book about? (central character)
What do the central characters want?
What keeps them/him/her from getting it?
How do they/him/her get what they want?
Do they have an enemy or enemies? Is there a villain?
What does the villain want?
What do you think is the most important event in the
story?
What leads up to this event?
How are the characters different after this event?
Pick out the most important event in each chapter.
How many different stories does the writer tell?"

 

 

Notice -- it's a lot of you, the parent, asking a lot of very simple, leading questions about what actually happened in the book. Not much in the way of analyzing theme, symbolism, characterization, etc. at this point. :)

 

 

As you mentioned, you have the additional stress of 4 younger boys to wrangle with, and it would really be a help to you if DD was able to work more independently -- BUT, gently, honestly, it doesn't sound like your DD is quite at that stage. If you're really stressed, here are some options:

 

- Have DD do the one subject that takes the most from you (time-wise and ability-wise) and outsource it as an online course, local classroom or homeschool co-op, or with a tutor.

 

- Decide to give DD an extra year to prepare for high school. Call this 6th grade instead of 7th (or, if you were calling this 8th grade, call it 7th), and take the pressure off of both of you. That would make DD's later entry into puberty not noticeable -- in fact it very likely would put her right on target with those at the same physical and scholastic level. That could really help her not feel like she's always having to struggle to keep up, but rather, give her the opportunity to excel and be a leader.

 

- One morning (or afternoon) a week, have all the younger DC go to a co-op, a friend's house, or swap time with another homeschooler, so you can really have some focused time with DD on a regular basis with no interruptions. That way you can do a few of those one-on-one things, have history/literature discussions, and go over problem areas without the distraction of the younger 4 DC.

 

Just to prepare you for high school: While some things DO become more independent for some students in middle school, for a lot of students it is a gradual process, a little each year, all through *high school*. (That was our older DS.) And some are late bloomers or have some learning issues so that independence in learning doesn't come until 11th or 12th grade (our younger DS). And, whether you have an early-, average-, or late-bloomer, a LOT of time is needed for those WTM discussions and analysis with your high school student, about history, literature, science, logic, etc. So if you can figure out a way NOW to work in regular undistracted discussion time/one-on-one time with your DD, it will be a real help to you both in high school.

 

 

Keep perservering, Roxanne! It sounds like you're doing a great job! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Lori D.
corrected the inevitable typos

[LisaKinVA]

I'm looking at your curricula... and I can't see anything that would be out of line for a 6th grader, or possibly a 7th grader. Each child is so different.

 

My 6th grader is more accelerated in math, but Pre-Algebra in 6th or 7th grade is still considered college-prep track.

 

I don't know much about the grammar/phonics/spelling, but if you're meeting her where she's at, that's the best.

 

Chronicles of Narnia would be fine for 6th or 7th grades.

 

Vocab 4/5/6... if this is an area she is struggling with, SWB would say back down on difficulty and do more.

 

We're also doing Who is God as a family. My oldest is 12.

 

Don't forget that 11-14 is filled with lots of physical changes (girls and boys). I could tell when my oldest started going through puberty, because he started crying all. the. time. We are in the brain-fog stage. It's a daily struggle. But, again, I don't think there is anything you are doing that would be too much or too little for a 12yo. It is very subjective.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm going to take a different tack here. When you say you're pulling her into the logic stage, do you mean:

 

1--You're having trouble getting her to synthesize and make connections with her history, science, etc? That's logic stage thinking, the difference between thinking about what the narrative is and thinking about why it is.

 

OR is the issue:

 

2--You're having trouble keeping her up with the SKILLS to keep her going forward into logic stage work and to allow her to do the output you're thinking you need for the logic stage based on WTM, etc.?

 

See the difference? When I look at your list and what you're saying, it seems to me more of the latter. And to me, this is just my chaste advice, I'd consider getting some answers. When you have a 12 yo who isn't sounding out words, doesn't retain phonics, is having trouble with comprehension, etc. etc., it's time to get some answers.

 

I'm all for the idea of different timetables, being patient, puberty fog, etc. etc., but I don't think that means you have to go it alone or without asking for help. When someone comes on the board this frustrated, I say it's time to get evaluations. Just my two cents. People challenged me on this, and we are. Join the club. :)

[Roxy Roller]

I really don't have any advice for you as I am in the same place with dd11. She sounds exactly like your dd. I will be watching this thread for any advice and suggestions. :grouphug: you are not alone!!

 

I am glad that I am not alone. Thank you for the hugs.

[Roxy Roller]

First (((hugs))) and encouragement Roxanne! Sounds like you are doing a fine job -- NOT failing your DD at all! You have your "finger on the pulse" of her needs; you've made curriculum changes as needed; and you are working with her *where she is*. That's wonderful! :)

 

 

Second, a reassurance: every child matures at a very different rate. Not just physically, but also in different brain areas (abstract thinking; logic; reasoning; etc.). We must be VERY careful not to look at those three stages in WTM and assume that just because the theory says that children in 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th grade are in the "logic stage" doesn't mean that is true of all children. Remember that good old bell curve -- there are going to be a few students who are way to the left of the peak of the curve who enter the Logic Stage early -- most fit in somewhere in the curve -- and a few students enter the Logic Stage later, way to the right end of the bell curve. So, patience, and acceptance of who your child is (and where your child is developmentally) can help. Sounds like your DD is right at the beginning of the process; I bet when you look back in 2 years, you will see that she HAS progressed into the Logic Stage. But it's not fair to expect her to be halfway through her marathon right NOW when she JUST got off the starting line! :)

 

 

Third, realistically, middle schoolers are not typically working very independently unless they are of a certain learning type, are advanced students, and/or are very self-motivated students. (I had none of those qualities in either of our DSs; hence, not much independent working until at least 9th grade for the older DS, and well into high school (11th/12th) for younger DS. ... sigh ...)

 

 

What are your expectations of what the Logic Stage should look like? Here's what SWB says in her article "Academic Excellence", on this page of the WTM website:

 

" “Logic stage†(middle school years, roughly grades 5-8)

The development of analytical thinking skills and abstract thought.

Strengths: Developing ability for abstraction and criticism

Weaknesses: Immature exercise of those skills

Logic: learn to evaluate validity of arguments

Literature: begin to ask questions about characters, plots,

motivations, techniques

Spelling: increasing application of rules to written work

Grammar: diagramming and outlining

Writing: outlining and using outlines for compositions

Mathematics: move towards abstraction (pre-algebra and

algebra)

History: focus on cause and effect, on chronology and relationships

between countries

Science: experimentation of the scientific disciplines."

 

 

Sounds like you are right there, in all the programs you are using, what you are doing, and how your DD is responding: "Developing ability for abstraction and criticism" -- but "immature exercise of those skills."

 

Notice SWB says "DEVELOPING". That means "beginning to develop". That means EXPOSURE to these skills (which you are doing through many of the programs you listed that you are using), and BEGINNING to put them into practice. Notice, too, SWB says "immature exercise of those skills". That means this is a PROCESS . SWB lists the Logic Stage as roughly covering 4 grades; so we need to remember that it will take our children several YEARS to:

- step into this stage

- begin to develop those skills

- and to finally become competent at it

 

 

Biologically speaking, most students do not BEGIN to develop the abstract thinking portions of the brain before age 12 -- age 14 is more typical. That's why so many students do MUCH better waiting to start Algebra 1 until grade 9, when their brains have actually begun to mature the abstract thinking they will need in order to "get" those abstract Algebra concepts. Also, analysis/discussion at this stage is still very simple -- mostly you, the parent asking a LOT of leading questions to help guide the student into making connections and comparisons. (Not much initiation of insights, analysis, criticism, etc. until we'd been doing it about 4 years -- somewhere along about 10th grade.)

 

Again, from that same SWB article above, here's what a Logic Stage literature discussion/analysis looks like:

 

"Talk. Then you’re going to talk to the child about the book: What is or isn’t important in the plot, whether the characters are heroes or villains.


For a novel/story:
Who is this book about? (central character)
What do the central characters want?
What keeps them/him/her from getting it?
How do they/him/her get what they want?
Do they have an enemy or enemies? Is there a villain?
What does the villain want?
What do you think is the most important event in the
story?
What leads up to this event?
How are the characters different after this event?
Pick out the most important event in each chapter.
How many different stories does the writer tell?"

 

 

Notice -- it's a lot of you, the parent, asking a lot of very simple, leading questions about what actually happened in the book. Not much in the way of analyzing theme, symbolism, characterization, etc. at this point. :)

 

 

As you mentioned, you have the additional stress of 4 younger boys to wrangle with, and it would really be a help to you if DD was able to work more independently -- BUT, gently, honestly, it doesn't sound like your DD is quite at that stage. If you're really stressed, here are some options:

 

- Have DD do the one subject that takes the most from you (time-wise and ability-wise) and outsource it as an online course, local classroom or homeschool co-op, or with a tutor.

 

- Decide to give DD an extra year to prepare for high school. Call this 6th grade instead of 7th (or, if you were calling this 8th grade, call it 7th), and take the pressure off of both of you. That would make DD's later entry into puberty not noticeable -- in fact it very likely would put her right on target with those at the same physical and scholastic level. That could really help her not feel like she's always having to struggle to keep up, but rather, give her the opportunity to excel and be a leader.

 

- One morning (or afternoon) a week, have all the younger DC go to a co-op, a friend's house, or swap time with another homeschooler, so you can really have some focused time with DD on a regular basis with no interruptions. That way you can do a few of those one-on-one things, have history/literature discussions, and go over problem areas without the distraction of the younger 4 DC.

 

Just to prepare you for high school: While some things DO become more independent for some students in middle school, for a lot of students it is a gradual process, a little each year, all through *high school*. (That was our older DS.) And some are late bloomers or have some learning issues so that independence in learning doesn't come until 11th or 12th grade (our younger DS). And, whether you have an early-, average-, or late-bloomer, a LOT of time is needed for those WTM discussions and analysis with your high school student, about history, literature, science, logic, etc. So if you can figure out a way NOW to work in regular undistracted discussion time/one-on-one time with your DD, it will be a real help to you both in high school.

 

 

Keep perservering, Roxanne! It sounds like you're doing a great job! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Thank you, Lori, for taking the time to encourage me. I really value your words of wisdom on this board and I am going to take these comments to heart.

[Roxy Roller]

I'm looking at your curricula... and I can't see anything that would be out of line for a 6th grader, or possibly a 7th grader. Each child is so different.

 

My 6th grader is more accelerated in math, but Pre-Algebra in 6th or 7th grade is still considered college-prep track.

 

I don't know much about the grammar/phonics/spelling, but if you're meeting her where she's at, that's the best.

 

Chronicles of Narnia would be fine for 6th or 7th grades.

 

Vocab 4/5/6... if this is an area she is struggling with, SWB would say back down on difficulty and do more.

 

We're also doing Who is God as a family. My oldest is 12.

 

Don't forget that 11-14 is filled with lots of physical changes (girls and boys). I could tell when my oldest started going through puberty, because he started crying all. the. time. We are in the brain-fog stage. It's a daily struggle. But, again, I don't think there is anything you are doing that would be too much or too little for a 12yo. It is very subjective.

 

This is what I have to remind myself of. I think that most of our issues are because of the physical changes that are starting to happen. I like everything laid out for me, and dealing with a child in the beginning of puberty is not an exact science, as I am learning.

[Roxy Roller]

Ok, I'm going to take a different tack here. When you say you're pulling her into the logic stage, do you mean:

 

1--You're having trouble getting her to synthesize and make connections with her history, science, etc? That's logic stage thinking, the difference between thinking about what the narrative is and thinking about why it is.

 

OR is the issue:

 

2--You're having trouble keeping her up with the SKILLS to keep her going forward into logic stage work and to allow her to do the output you're thinking you need for the logic stage based on WTM, etc.?

 

See the difference? When I look at your list and what you're saying, it seems to me more of the latter. And to me, this is just my chaste advice, I'd consider getting some answers. When you have a 12 yo who isn't sounding out words, doesn't retain phonics, is having trouble with comprehension, etc. etc., it's time to get some answers.

 

I'm all for the idea of different timetables, being patient, puberty fog, etc. etc., but I don't think that means you have to go it alone or without asking for help. When someone comes on the board this frustrated, I say it's time to get evaluations. Just my two cents. People challenged me on this, and we are. Join the club. :)

 

Thank you, Elizabeth. I think that we are a little of #1 and #2. My DD has only just turned 12, and immature 12 at that, so that would account for #1. #2 is harder to pin-point. She has most of the skills that she needs, as we have worked very hard to get her there. But, part of the problem is getting her to use the skills she needs, maybe some of this comes down to her heart-attitude. I guess I need to think of her as just beginning the logic stage as a prior poster pointed out, and not like she is half-way through, which is what I tend to do. As far as other problems, I do not think that she has any glaring symptoms, but I probably need to be more observant.

[redsquirrel]

and I swear I was listening to one of SWB's lectures and she said something about how some kids have to be dragged into the logic stage and many don't get it together it until they are about 8th graders. It is a process and it develops unevenly.

 

I heard that and thought, "Oh goody. That means we finally figure it out and then I get to drag him into the rhetoric stage. Great."

[PeterPan]

No, she's not half way through the logic stage, lol. About 6th grade it really starts to kick in. In 7th they go PLEASE mom let me do some thinking in my writing and stop doing those stinkin' narratives. 8th I haven't lived yet. I'm saying she's only on the cusp. The divisions in WTM have NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY. SWB is not some expert in child development, lol.

[Roxy Roller]

and I swear I was listening to one of SWB's lectures and she said something about how some kids have to be dragged into the logic stage and many don't get it together it until they are about 8th graders. It is a process and it develops unevenly.

 

I heard that and thought, "Oh goody. That means we finally figure it out and then I get to drag him into the rhetoric stage. Great."

 

Really? I wonder which lecture that was. I have a few of her lectures, and I don't remember that. If that is the case, it would be reassuring.

[Roxy Roller]

No, she's not half way through the logic stage, lol. About 6th grade it really starts to kick in. In 7th they go PLEASE mom let me do some thinking in my writing and stop doing those stinkin' narratives. 8th I haven't lived yet. I'm saying she's only on the cusp. The divisions in WTM have NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY. SWB is not some expert in child development, lol.

 

I think you are right, although I am sure there are kids who do follow the divisions in the WTM, but it is still hard to stop comparing.:tongue_smilie:

[lewelma]

I do not feel like I am pulling my child into the logic stage, but I do feel like there is more to do than we have time for. Everything takes my ds so long to do. I should rephrase, everything associated with writing takes my son so long to do - so this is WWS, science, and history. Day 4 of WWS takes my ds 1.5 hours if he is focused, more otherwise. A paragraph for history or science - an hour. My ds is advanced in math, but very average in spelling. I am pretty sure that we will be doing spelling until highschool, and then dabble in it until he graduates.

 

I really think you have to meet your child where she is. Add more time to her weaknesses (2 hours/day here for writing related stuff), and unfortunately take a bit from her strengths (math for my son, which is why it will take him 2.5 years to finish AoPS algebra). I am trying to keep my ds balanced until at least 9th grade.

 

If I were you, I would start ramping up the reading level. Just a little at a time, every book just a bit more difficult. I would also increase the level of the vocabulary you are doing. We have found that Caesar's English I and II go through the top 100 words typically found in classics, and these might help your dd to be able to read them more easily.

 

Good luck finding what works for you,

 

Ruth in NZ

[PeterPan]

I think you are right, although I am sure there are kids who do follow the divisions in the WTM, but it is still hard to stop comparing.:tongue_smilie:

 

There's a difference between them doing what's in WTM (which my dd has been fine with) and the *mystique* of logic stage. What I'm talking about is the latter, that what I thought I was supposed to see didn't really kick in hard till a couple years later. It's not like it wasn't there before, and I really don't think it's all neatly divided (now we think analytically and care about relationships, now we don't).

[RootAnn]

No, she's not half way through the logic stage, lol. About 6th grade it really starts to kick in. In 7th they go PLEASE mom let me do some thinking in my writing and stop doing those stinkin' narratives. 8th I haven't lived yet. I'm saying she's only on the cusp. The divisions in WTM have NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY. SWB is not some expert in child development, lol.

 

Whew. I don't feel so bad at not "dragging" my oldest into the logic stage this year (young 5th). :hurray: She really is starting to make connections between things & point them out, but she's not nearly as independent as I want (need) her to be.

[Roxy Roller]

I do not feel like I am pulling my child into the logic stage, but I do feel like there is more to do than we have time for. Everything takes my ds so long to do. I should rephrase, everything associated with writing takes my son so long to do - so this is WWS, science, and history. Day 4 of WWS takes my ds 1.5 hours if he is focused, more otherwise. A paragraph for history or science - an hour. My ds is advanced in math, but very average in spelling. I am pretty sure that we will be doing spelling until highschool, and then dabble in it until he graduates.

 

I really think you have to meet your child where she is. Add more time to her weaknesses (2 hours/day here for writing related stuff), and unfortunately take a bit from her strengths (math for my son, which is why it will take him 2.5 years to finish AoPS algebra). I am trying to keep my ds balanced until at least 9th grade.

 

If I were you, I would start ramping up the reading level. Just a little at a time, every book just a bit more difficult. I would also increase the level of the vocabulary you are doing. We have found that Caesar's English I and II go through the top 100 words typically found in classics, and these might help your dd to be able to read them more easily.

 

Good luck finding what works for you,

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Thank you, Ruth. We will be doing spelling well into high school around here as well. I will have to look into Caesar's English. I have to admit that we have only just started vocab work, I think you are right in saying that I probably need to ramp it up so that my daughter can more easily read the classics.