CHINA: Toddler Hit By Truck--and Passersby Do NOTHING to Help

[awisha.]

OMG, I had read that the video was bad. But it was worse, that poor little girl. And I ached inside when the rag lady picked her up and the girl flopped like she was a rag doll.

 

I don't care which country it happened in, but ignoring someone (a 2 y.old!!!) when they are obviously hurt is f-ing wrong.

[Cammie]

Oh for crying out loud to the lord above.

 

Of the many things one might contrive to call China's 1 child policy it is NOT prochoice. There is no choice. You either agree or you better be insane rich enough to have another baby. There is no choice for the vast majority of China's men and women.

 

I am willing to separate the government from the people to a some extent.

 

So no, I'm not going to think all Chinese people don't care about slaughtered toddlers in the road.

 

You are right. It could have happened anywhere.

 

That doesn't excuse it or make it less evil.

 

 

I agree, could have happened anywhere. I agree China's policy is not "pro-choice." I was referring to other comments made earlier that were clearly not referring only to China. I agree doesn't excuse it or make it less evil.

[bookfiend]

This is what happens when society stops valuing human life.

.

 

My thoughts exactly, and we aren't that far away.

[Denisemomof4]

this is a picture the beautiful baby and her beautiful mama. :crying:

 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterfoster/100111377/china-ponders-its-lack-of-good-samaritans/yueyue-and-her-mot_2028752c/

[LibraryLover]

The moving of an injured child as if she were a rag doll...wow. But we just don't know if average people understand that should not be done.

Edited October 19, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Murphy101]

The moving of an injured child as if she were a rag doll...wow. But we just dont' know if people know that should not be done. The hospital is caring for the child..they did not turn her away.

 

I screamed out loud "don't move her!" when I saw that part.

But the reality is that obviously at any moment the rag woman could have been run over and left for dead too. Maybe that is why?

 

And the hospital is not caring for her any longer... The little girl died.

[LibraryLover]

I screamed out loud "don't move her!" when I saw that part.

But the reality is that obviously at any moment the rag woman could have been run over and left for dead too. Maybe that is why?

 

And the hospital is not caring for her any longer... The little girl died.[/QUOTE]

 

 

:( But they did care for her.

 

I admit I did not have the heart to go back to read whether she survived. It did not seem to me anyone could live through that. Poor dear baby. I didn't check, but I assume she had parents by her side as she passed.

Edited October 19, 2011 by LibraryLover

[aggieamy]

I can't make myself watch the video. In a way I want to because I keep thinking that everyone here must be wrong. They must have missed something. Surely the situation didn't really happen like that. I know it's true though and I can't watch the video. Poor child.

[Georgiana Daniels]

I can't make myself watch the video. In a way I want to because I keep thinking that everyone here must be wrong. They must have missed something. Surely the situation didn't really happen like that. I know it's true though and I can't watch the video. Poor child.

 

I agree. I wanted to understand what everyone was seeing/talking about, but it is something I cannot watch. My heart breaks for her.

[swellmomma]

Oh my word, I can't believe they treated that little baby like a bag of trash. Walking around her, driving over her often, even those that found her just crumpling her up and pulling her aside. Messed up monsters imo. How can anyone be so desensitized that they don't think to stop and help a baby dieing in the street. It just breaks my heart.

[Free]

I hesitated to watch it after seeing all the warnings. But in the end, I felt it wrong to form an opinion about people or a culture without seeing with my own eyes.

 

I do not think one can form an opinion about a people or a culture even after watching this video. There are terrible things that happen everywhere (yes, even in the developed nations) and we find people capable of amazing acts of kindness, also everywhere in the world.

 

I suppose when poverty, pain, suffering and an overall feeling of helplessness become the norm in a society, the degree of apathy is also higher.

[The Governess]

.

[IsabelC]

Of course it is incredibly heartbreakingly sad - no it's beyond sad, it's incomprehensible..

 

But all the same I would rather try not to judge the people who were there, as there is just no way of knowing what was going on with them. While I sincerely hope that I would always try to help a child in distress no matter what the cost to me (whether financial risk or physical danger), there is also no way of knowing for sure what I would do in a situation, until I have actually been there.

 

Ever since Kitty Genovese there has been a load of research about bystander apathy and I haven't seen anything to indicate that it's a reaction limited to uncaring/'bad' people (assuming such people exist). (One experiment I read about was, as far as I remember, done on seminary students who were off to deliver a speech about the story of the Good Samaritan. They were set up so that on the way the passed an apparently sick/dying person. Many of them walked by pretending not to notice!)

 

On another note, remember that an estimated 25000 people per day are dying from hunger, many of them children. They are each of them no less precious than this little one, yet how many of those expressing outrage about this case are not doing all they can to combat poverty?

 

 

ETA- I didn't view the video footage - thanks OP for the warning

Edited October 19, 2011 by Hotdrink

[Free]

Ever since Kitty Genovese there has been a load of research about bystander apathy and I haven't seen anything to indicate that it's a reaction limited to uncaring/'bad' people. (One experiment I read about was, as far as I remember, done on seminary students who were on their way to deliver a speech about the story of the Good Samaritan. They were set up so that on the way the passed an apparently sick/dying person. Many of them walked by pretending not to notice!)

 

Thanks for mentioning this. I just googled bystander apathy and found a Wikipedia article on this. Unfortunately such behaviour is neither uncommon, nor limited to certain societies.

[Cammie]

Really interesting information on bystander apathy from the article that the above poster mentioned:

 

Kitty Genovese

The case of Kitty Genovese is often cited as an example of the "bystander effect". It is also the case that originally stimulated social psychological research in this area. 28 year-old Kitty Genovese was stabbed to death on March 13, 1964 by a serial rapist and murderer on her way back to her Queens, New York apartment from work at 3am. According to newspaper accounts, the attack lasted for at least a half an hour during which time Genovese screamed and pleaded for help. The murderer attacked Genovese and stabbed her, then fled the scene after attracting the attention of a neighbor. The killer then returned ten minutes later and finished the assault. Newspaper reports after Genovese's death claimed that 38 witnesses watched the stabbings and failed to intervene or even contact the police until after the attacker fled and Genovese had died. This led to widespread public attention, and many editorials.

According to an article published in American Psychologist in 2007, the original story of Kitty Genovese's murder was exaggerated by the media. Specifically, there were not 38 eyewitnesses, the police were contacted at least once during the attack, and many of the bystanders who overheard the attack could not actually see the event. The authors of the article suggest that the story continues to be misrepresented in social psychology textbooks because it functions as a parable and serves as a dramatic example for students.[16]

Stanley Milgram hypothesized that the bystanders′ callous behavior was caused by the strategies they had adopted in daily life to cope with information overload. This idea has been supported to varying degrees by empirical research.[17]

[edit] New York’s Central Park Parade

 

In June 2000 following a parade (The Puerto Rican Day parade) alongside New York’s Central Park which more than a million locals and tourists had attended, a pack of alcohol-fueled men became sexually aggressive. They began to grope and strip nearly 60 women. At least two victims approached nearby police who did nothing to help them. Nobody dialed 911 or offered assistance.[1]

[edit] Sergio Aguiar

 

On June 16, 2008, on a country road outside Turlock, California, friends, family and strangers, including a volunteer fire chief, stood by as Sergio Aguiar methodically stomped his two-year-old son Axel Casian to death, explaining in a calm voice that he "had to get the demons out" of the boy. He stopped at one point to turn on the hazard lights on his truck. No one moved to take the child or attack Aguiar. Witnesses said they were all afraid to intervene because Aguiar "might have something in his pocket", although some people looked for rocks or boards hoping to find something to subdue him. The fire chief's fiancee called 911.[18] Police officer Jerry Ramar arrived by helicopter and told Aguiar to stop. Aguiar gave Ramar the finger and Ramar shot him in the head.[19][20] Police officers and psychologists later explained that the inaction of the crowd was justified in that "ordinary people aren't going to tackle a psychotic," that they were not "psychologically prepared" to intervene, and that being frozen in indecision and fear is a normal reaction.[18]

[edit] Brooklyn Hospital Case

 

In June 2008 a woman collapsed in a Brooklyn hospital waiting room, but was ignored by other people present in the room and two security guards. People tried to help her only after an hour has passed. The woman died.[21]

[edit] Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax

 

In April 2010 Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax was stabbed to death in New York City after coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked by a robber. Yax was on the sidewalk for one and a half hours before fire fighters arrived. Almost twenty-five people walked by while he lay dying on a sidewalk in Queens, one of them took pictures, none of them helped or called emergency services.[22][23]

[edit] Simone Back

 

On Christmas Day 2010, Brighton UK woman, Simone Back, posted a suicide note on the social networking site Facebook. Several of her 1,082 Facebook friends commented on her status, but none of them called for emergency services or went to check on her personally. Some of her friends lived within walking distance of Simone's flat. Her body was discovered by police the next day.[24][25] The incident likely reflects a popular myth about suicide, that a person who talks about killing themselves is unlikely to do it.[26][27][28]

[edit] Yue Yue (悦悦)

 

In October 2011, a two year old girl YueYue was run over by a truck in the city of Foshan, and because bystanders didn't move the child, a second truck ran her over. A total of 18 passerbys ignored her, going so far as to walk around the blood, and the girl was left for 7 minutes before a garbage collector Chen Xianmei discovered the body and called for help. [29]

[Laura Corin]

How could you not at least call for emergency assistance...

 

Certainly other forms of medical care have to be paid for up front. Visiting a hospital (I did it once with a child with severe abdominal pain, and once with a child with a broken arm) went like this:

 

Arrive at hospital and queue to pay to see doctor

Queue to see doctor. Doctor suggests X-ray.

Queue to pay for X-ray

Queue to get X-ray

Go back to doctor - jump queue (as existing patient) if you are lucky. Doctor sees X-ray. Sends you to other doctor.

Queue to pay to see other doctor

Queue to see other doctor

Arrange with doctor to have broken arm put into temporary plaster before flying child to Hong Kong

Queue to pay for services of plaster technician, painkillers and all individual plastering materials.

Queue to get arm plastered.

 

Laura

[Cammie]

I agree. In India there is NO ambulance service to speak of (no reliable 911 system.) Any ambulance you find is likely to get stuck in traffic. No private hospital will take a patient without payment upfront. Government hospitals will entail disgusting facilities and hours and hours of waiting. We are so lucky in the US and I think lots of Americans don't realize quite how lucky.

[....]

But all the same I would rather try not to judge the people who were there, as there is just no way of knowing what was going on with them.

 

I don't mind judging them. The guy driving the truck KNEW he hit her, rolled over her a second time and drove off. In the US, that idiot would be in prison right now and he would never drive again. The darn security camera caught his license plate number. And, for the people who walked past her, they weren't human enough to stop and help her. No one's in that much shock. They just didn't give a #@^.

 

And, I agree with all the "slippery slope" comments. I'm thinking of a Times magazine article about China's population issues from a few years back (when the kids started the new school year and an overwhelming number were boys)...but that's another subject.

[Reeciecup]

When I lived in Raleigh NC in the early 90's, a man tried to cross a busy road, 8 lanes I think. It was the 440 beltline that circled the city. He was hit and run over, and the police estimate that he was hit and run over at least 50 more times, before anyone stopped to help him. In addition to the 50 cars that hit him many more passed him by without stopping to offer aid or call for help.

[....]

I have a little Chinese daughter. I read the description and had to stop there.

 

My 4 kids are Asian. Don't watch it.

[....]

When I lived in Raleigh NC in the early 90's, a man tried to cross a busy road, 8 lanes I think. It was the 440 beltline that circled the city. He was hit and run over, and the police estimate that he was hit and run over at least 50 more times, before anyone stopped to help him. In addition to the 50 cars that hit him many more passed him by without stopping to offer aid or call for help.

 

I absolutely can not fathom that. How could anyone just drive away and carry on with their day??? :confused:

[Janie Grace]

I don't mind judging them. The guy driving the truck KNEW he hit her, rolled over her a second time and drove off. In the US, that idiot would be in prison right now and he would never drive again. The darn security camera caught his license plate number. And, for the people who walked past her, they weren't human enough to stop and help her. No one's in that much shock. They just didn't give a #@^.

 

And, I agree with all the "slippery slope" comments. I'm thinking of a Times magazine article about China's population issues from a few years back (when the kids started the new school year and an overwhelming number were boys)...but that's another subject.

 

:iagree:

I am so angry and upset right now I cannot speak or type something intelligible but I agree with you. The disregard for life is unthinkable.

[....]

:iagree:

I am so angry and upset right now I cannot speak or type something intelligible but I agree with you. The disregard for life is unthinkable.

 

I was very upset about this yesterday. I canceled school in the morning and spent a lot of time with my 4 yro - playing with her and coloring.

 

There needs to be public outrage in CHINA about this. Their government needs to make some big changes.

 

Edited to say: I'm having trouble believing that China doesn't have First Responders (people can't call the cops or a Chinese version of 911)...?

Edited October 19, 2011 by starrbuck12

[Laura Corin]

When I lived in Raleigh NC in the early 90's, a man tried to cross a busy road, 8 lanes I think. It was the 440 beltline that circled the city. He was hit and run over, and the police estimate that he was hit and run over at least 50 more times, before anyone stopped to help him. In addition to the 50 cars that hit him many more passed him by without stopping to offer aid or call for help.

 

There is a member whose husband's severely compromised health continues to deteriorate due to an illness which could be treatable. Some have indeed made individual contributions to help but the wider society turns away.

 

I'm sure no individual on this board could afford to shoulder his full medical costs. What of the child in China then? What if, culturally, by picking up that child you became liable for medical bills that would bankrupt your family?

 

Again, I am not excusing the actions of anyone in China. Just giving some background.

 

Laura

Edited October 19, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Murphy101]

I don't mind judging them. The guy driving the truck KNEW he hit her, rolled over her a second time and drove off. In the US, that idiot would be in prison right now and he would never drive again. The darn security camera caught his license plate number. And, for the people who walked past her, they weren't human enough to stop and help her. No one's in that much shock. They just didn't give a #@^.

 

 

Yes. I have no problems judging this either. It was wrong. The end. There is nothing about any of them that could make it right. I don't care about their government or what all else pathetic excuses they might have for driving over a toddler and ignoring her body. I think every single one of them should go to prison. Even if a person can't do anything for the victim, no one, certainly not a toddler, should have to die in pain, alone, like so much trash in the road.

 

We can try to rationalize it, but it can't be because it is just wrong.

[IsabelC]

There needs to be public outrage in CHINA about this. Their government needs to make some big changes.

There is outrage in China, and there has been an outpouring of support for the family from all over the place.

 

I'm astounded that anyone could interpret this a solely - or even mainly - a result of the Chinese political system (not, by the way, that I approve of China's policies and administration). The Wikipedia article posted above lists 7 prominent analogous examples, 5 of which occurred in the US. Would some people assert that to be an indication that democracy and freedom are to blame for moral turpitude? Or that Americans don't value life? Of course not, that would be ridiculous.

 

I don't think anybody is trying to rationalize or excuse the behavior of those people. I'm certainly not. But I think there's almost always more to it than "them" (people different from me) being evil.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Hotdrink

[Murphy101]

There is outrage in China, and there has been an outpouring of support for the family from all over the place.

 

I'm astounded that anyone could interpret this a solely - or even mainly - a result of the Chinese political system (not, by the way, that I approve of China's policies and administration). Wikipedia lists 7 prominent analogous examples, 5 of which occurred in the US. Would some people assert that to be an indication that democracy and freedom are to blame for moral turpitude?

 

I agree. I do not think this saying anything about Chinese people in particular either. My opinion would be the same regardless of locale. And I have already said I think it could have happened anywhere.

[Laura Corin]

Brought on by a 50+ year of a sitting communist government.

 

I'm anti-Red Scare, but one must look at how communism changes a culture over time into something usually much less than it was before. No one has voted for any of these laws we're lamenting.

 

Parents would routinely transport their toddlers either on the back of motorbikes - just holding them around the waist - or standing on the footplate of scooters in front of them. They had no helmets and the traffic was terrifying. Last I heard, Taiwan was impeccably anti-communist but it was at a stage of development where life was cheap.

 

Laura

[....]

I'm astounded that anyone could interpret this a solely - or even mainly - a result of the Chinese political system (not, by the way, that I approve of China's policies and administration).

 

I'm going to end up getting banned soon.

 

But, seriously, how is their government (and I think this is a LOCAL government issue) serving the population when they don't have emergency services, first responders, police services, etc? Also, most states have Samaritan laws for a reason. What is the government's purpose? To suck up money and not serve/protect the population?

 

Disclaimer: yes, I realize that the US has issues, too (I'm in the midst of paying property taxes right now)- and those make me equally angry.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

It happened in NYC last April, like Cammie mentioned

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/24/hugo-alfredo-tale-yax-doz_n_550854.html

 

Hugo Alfredo Tale-Yax was stabbed several times in the chest while saving a woman from a knife-wielding attacker. Then he bled to death while dozens of people walked by -- one stopping to snap a picture of the dying man with his cameraphone before leaving the scene.

 

And there's a video too, just like the little girl in China. There's nothing Chinese about this kind of apathy.

 

(and I didn't watch either video because I don't believe it's ok to watch someone die, out of respect for that person.)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yes. Luckily I was never in a position where I had to get involved in an accident.

 

I was boarding a bus one day, however, with a Chinese friend. The person in front of me started to fall back towards me. I put out a hand to support them, but my Chinese friend snatched my hand away. Luckily the person regained her balance. The friend explained that if the person had fallen while I was touching her, she might well have demanded all medical costs from me.

 

Laura

 

I don't think that Japan was quite that bad. But when I went through driver training on base, a huge emphasis was specifically not to render physical aid after an accident. There isn't an equivalent of a Good Samaritan law like there is in the US (where a helpful bystander is given the benefit of the doubt when they try to assist).

 

We were told that calling 911 IS rendering aid, because that will bring professionals who will do the right thing for the situation.

 

This was one of the occasions that drove home how culturally different two places can be.

[clarkacademy]

Yes. I have no problems judging this either. It was wrong. The end. There is nothing about any of them that could make it right. I don't care about their government or what all else pathetic excuses they might have for driving over a toddler and ignoring her body. I think every single one of them should go to prison. Even if a person can't do anything for the victim, no one, certainly not a toddler, should have to die in pain, alone, like so much trash in the road.

 

We can try to rationalize it, but it can't be because it is just wrong.

 

:iagree: No human being should have to die alone and if more people would fight things would change. People could have ecleast gathered and held her hand, talked to her something to let her know she was not alone. My heart breaks for that baby and I hope every person including the person filming is haunted by her till their dieing day. I hope they all answer to God why they let his child suffer so and alone. It is digusting the way people act and I care less what the reason is.

[Laura Corin]

I don't think that Japan was quite that bad. But when I went through driver training on base, a huge emphasis was specifically not to render physical aid after an accident. There isn't an equivalent of a Good Samaritan law like there is in the US (where a helpful bystander is given the benefit of the doubt when they try to assist).

 

 

I asked about notions of 'fault' if someone was injured on the road. I had heard disturbing things, but didn't believe them. The instructor said that, although it was nowhere enshrined in law, at least in that city it was the custom that the involved person who had the most money paid, regardless of fault.

 

Laura

[Jennay]

Regarding watching the video:

Just hearing about the incident didn't impact my soul as much as seeing the video. It was horrific but it caused my soul to truly cry out in anguish "Lord have mercy!" for that little girl. Otherwise, it was just another news story of something terrible in the world. Seeing the video reminded me of the extreme value of human life. An article would not have done the same for me.

I agree with a pp that those images will be in my head forever and I do not regret that. Hopefully those images will spur me on toward greater service and care for those whom others cast aside.

Lord, have mercy.

[momacacia]

You know you are going to get slammed for saying this, so before that starts, just want to say that I agree. When we were in China, this was my and my husband's strong impression: human life does not have the value there that it does elsewhere. YES, there are exceptions, yes, there are many loving parents, but as a whole, society seems to value human life very little.

 

I had this same experience in newly post-Communist Moscow in 1991. You took your life in your hands to walk anywhere near a street or to cross a street and if a pedestrian was hit, it was just "bleh, another one."

[Alessandra]

Yes. Luckily I was never in a position where I had to get involved in an accident.

 

I was boarding a bus one day, however, with a Chinese friend. The person in front of me started to fall back towards me. I put out a hand to support them, but my Chinese friend snatched my hand away. Luckily the person regained her balance. The friend explained that if the person had fallen while I was touching her, she might well have demanded all medical costs from me.

 

Laura

 

Has lead to a turning-in towards the family. I'm talking about the history before the Communist revolution.

 

Justice was familial: if one person did wrong, then the emperor punished the perpetrator's whole family. With joint guilt came a feeling that only family mattered, that, in the words of Mrs Thatcher 'There's no such thing as society.'

 

Confucianism, the underlying philosophy of Chinese society, includes the concept of benevolence. In practice, however, duty has been more stressed. This duty tends to have been expressed in vertical terms: filial piety, duty to the emperor, etc. Horizontal duty has been less stressed.

 

Not excusing the events, just trying to give some background.

 

Laura

 

Certainly other forms of medical care have to be paid for up front. Visiting a hospital (I did it once with a child with severe abdominal pain, and once with a child with a broken arm) went like this:

 

Arrive at hospital and queue to pay to see doctor

Queue to see doctor. Doctor suggests X-ray.

Queue to pay for X-ray

Queue to get X-ray

Go back to doctor - jump queue (as existing patient) if you are lucky. Doctor sees X-ray. Sends you to other doctor.

Queue to pay to see other doctor

Queue to see other doctor

Arrange with doctor to have broken arm put into temporary plaster before flying child to Hong Kong

Queue to pay for services of plaster technician, painkillers and all individual plastering materials.

Queue to get arm plastered.

 

Laura

 

There is a member whose husband's severely compromised health continues to deteriorate due to an illness which could be treatable. Some have indeed made individual contributions to help but the wider society turns away.

 

I'm sure no individual on this board could afford to shoulder his full medical costs. What of the child in China then? What if, culturally, by picking up that child you became liable for medical bills that would bankrupt your family?

 

Again, I am not excusing the actions of anyone in China. Just giving some background.

 

Laura

 

Parents would routinely transport their toddlers either on the back of motorbikes - just holding them around the waist - or standing on the footplate of scooters in front of them. They had no helmets and the traffic was terrifying. Last I heard, Taiwan was impeccably anti-communist but it was at a stage of development where life was cheap.

 

Laura

 

I asked about notions of 'fault' if someone was injured on the road. I had heard disturbing things, but didn't believe them. The instructor said that, although it was nowhere enshrined in law, at least in that city it was the custom that the involved person who had the most money paid, regardless of fault.

 

Laura

 

Laura -- I was hoping you would reply, since you have lived in China. I wanted to say that I have enjoyed your comments.

[Murphy101]

Parents would routinely transport their toddlers either on the back of motorbikes - just holding them around the waist - or standing on the footplate of scooters in front of them. They had no helmets and the traffic was terrifying. Last I heard, Taiwan was impeccably anti-communist but it was at a stage of development where life was cheap.

 

Laura

 

That is just no where on par to this to me. In the 60s and 70s people did that in America all the time too and it didn't mean they thought life was cheap. I don't think it was until the 80s that many carseat laws were made and enforced?

 

There is a difference, a huge difference, between not having modern american safety mechanisms all over the place and treating a toddler like road kill.

[Free]

I'm going to end up getting banned soon.

 

But, seriously, how is their government (and I think this is a LOCAL government issue) serving the population when they don't have emergency services, first responders, police services, etc? Also, most states have Samaritan laws for a reason. What is the government's purpose? To suck up money and not serve/protect the population?

 

Disclaimer: yes, I realize that the US has issues, too (I'm in the midst of paying property taxes right now)- and those make me equally angry.

 

These issues are present in ANY developing nation. India has all of these problems. And we have a democracy too. Yes our systems are broken. Yes a lot needs to be done and things are changing - albeit too slowly. Yes our politicians are corrupt and our political system is one big money sucking machine. Sigh.

 

But...it has already been shown in this thread that bystanders not rushing to help somebody in trouble happens all over the world. Why should we bring in China's political system or communism into this discussion?

[Laura Corin]

Laura -- I was hoping you would reply, since you have lived in China.

 

I feel that horror that leads to 'Something must be done!' is much more productive if there is reflection and understanding. Then we can all work out what that 'something' should be.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

That is just no where on par to this to me. In the 60s and 70s people did that in America all the time too and it didn't mean they thought life was cheap. I don't think it was until the 80s that many carseat laws were made and enforced?

 

There is a difference, a huge difference, between not having modern american safety mechanisms all over the place and treating a toddler like road kill.

 

That life was cheaper in the West thirty years ago. We expected less safety and anticipated shorter lives. Were lives in the West as 'cheap' thirty years ago as they are in China or India now? No. But 100 years ago I think they probably were. Go back another 50 years, read Dickens, and life was close to worthless.

 

Laura

[Joker]

I've read two articles this morning that say the little girl is not dead but she is showing very little brain activity. They also stated that the woman who eventually came to her aid has been given a reward by the government.

 

Here's one of them.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/19/world/asia/china-toddler-rescued/index.html?eref=rss_world

[nono]

These issues are present in ANY developing nation. SNIP Why should we bring in China's political system or communism into this discussion?

 

I brought it up because thank you very much China was already a developed nation. Just not in the western sense. Because it isn't Westernized, in no means equates to "not developed." People were making sweeping generalizations about Chinese culture and society, and I am suggesting that Communism* might be part of the problem in combination with the culture. Re-read everything I wrote. It was in response to people citing the 1 child policy, horror at the folks in the video not caring. EVERY CULTURE is affected by its form of government. Singapore, Taiwan. Dominated by Chinese, but different cultures. And, yeah, I've been to them. And err, I live it day-to-day as my dh is foreign-born Chinese and the many of our friends are foreign-born Chinese. All different starting points, based on the systems under which they emerged. And became different, too, upon embracing a new culture under different govenrments.

 

No one can know what they would do if they had switched shoes with the folks in the video, because we can't possibly know who we'd be given a life under the conditions there as they are today.

 

*I'm not accusing them of being communists, they ARE self-declared communists. The People's Republic of China. So now I have to be so politically correct as to not call them what they call themselves? Great.

Edited October 19, 2011 by nono

[Murphy101]

That life was cheaper in the West thirty years ago. We expected less safety and anticipated shorter lives. Were lives in the West as 'cheap' thirty years ago as they are in China or India now? No. But 100 years ago I think they probably were. Go back another 50 years, read Dickens, and life was close to worthless.

 

Laura

 

What the Fremont?! (Ok. I seriously like autocorrects sense of humor. LOL)

 

They were realist. Polio happened. Riding accidents (via horse or car or whatever) happened. There simply weren't options to avoid those things without avoiding a huge part of just living life. I happen to be an avid fan of Dickens. (I've owned his complete works since I was in middle school.) They did not think life was worthless. Good grief. The entire point of Dickens was to show the worth of even those in the worst conditions and how difficult it was for them to survive sickness, poverty, and abandonment.

 

It would seem you equate how much people value life simply by how closely they mirror 1st world 21st century countries?:confused:

[IsabelC]

It is digusting the way people act and I care less what the reason is.

I do care about the reason, because understanding the causes of a problem is one way to move towards fixing the problem. I believe in working within my circle of influence however I can (if you will pardon the pop-psychese).

 

I feel that horror that leads to 'Something must be done!' is much more productive if there is reflection and understanding. Then we can all work out what that 'something' should be.

:iagree:

[Free]

*I'm not accusing them of being communists, they ARE self-declared communists. The People's Republic of China. So now I have to be so politically correct as to not call them what they call themselves? Great.

 

:001_smile: And I am not accusing you of accusing China of being communist, because I know they are communist. I was only saying that Communism has nothing to do with bystander apathy.

[nono]

:001_smile: And I am not accusing you of accusing China of being communist, because I know they are communist. I was only saying that Communism has nothing to do with bystander apathy.

 

 

I agree that bystander apathy happens everywhere. That was never in question in my mind.

 

I was responding to specific notions as the thread developed. Stayed out for as long as I could. :001_huh: And, I think all forms of government bear responsibility for how their laws effect the existing culture. Sometimes ideas that look good on paper have a sweeping change of the psyche of a nation.

 

I think you are worrying about the apples. I'm worrying about the oranges. And I think Laura is looking after the pears. All approaching from different ways. Which points to how many inputs there are in making this type of heart-breaking event happen.

[butterflymommy]

I recently watched a documentary about the gender imbalance in China. There are predicted to be many millions of unmarriageable males within this generation, which will inevitably lead to social discord-- unmarried men tend to be the most criminal element of a society. How ironic that the one child policy may end up being china's undoing, both through the gender imbalance and the culture of death that has grown from the abortion "gendercide" of girls. The same is probably going to happen in India. Untold millions of girls have been snuffed out because of the drive to have boys--there is no way this can go on for decades without affecting the ethical fabric of a society.

[Laura Corin]

I happen to be an avid fan of Dickens. (I've owned his complete works since I was in middle school.) They did not think life was worthless. Good grief. The entire point of Dickens was to show the worth of even those in the worst conditions and how difficult it was for them to survive sickness, poverty, and abandonment.

 

 

He wrote about the intrinsic value of every human life precisely because his society as a whole did not value the poor, the disabled, the dispossessed. He was a campaigning writer - trying to change his society. The chimney sweep children, the crossing sweepers and those who were maimed under the looms as they picked up fluff were cheap to society. He thought that was wrong

 

Laura

Edited October 19, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I asked about notions of 'fault' if someone was injured on the road. I had heard disturbing things, but didn't believe them. The instructor said that, although it was nowhere enshrined in law, at least in that city it was the custom that the involved person who had the most money paid, regardless of fault.

 

Laura

 

Did issues of VIPness come up? I'm thinking both of the recent case where a party honcho's son hit (and killed?) someone and told the police, "I'm so and so's son".

 

It also reminds me of stories I heard of from a particular country in Eastern Europe, where the police's role at an accident scene was described as figuring out who was more important so they could cite the other driver.

 

 

In Japan, there was something referred to as "gomen na sai money". This was something given by one driver to another (in a system I'm not totally sure of). Many Americans struggled with this, because in our system, paying the other driver seems to imply either that you are paying them off or that you are admiting guilt.

[Laura Corin]

Did issues of VIPness come up? I'm thinking both of the recent case where a party honcho's son hit (and killed?) someone and told the police, "I'm so and so's son".

 

I was thinking about my perceived wealth as a foreigner.

 

Cyclists in the city where I lived used to come out of side roads or cross lanes of traffic without looking. I never quite understood why. I saw one woman killed by a bus when she cycled fast from a side road onto a main road without looking. I was very aware that, were I to drive, I could very well hurt someone through no fault of my own, but still be expected to support an injured or disabled person.

 

Laura