Has Community College/Dual enrollment accomplished

[Miss Marple]

what you hoped it would accomplish with your students? I've been musing about this recently because I now have 2 who have gone that route - dual enrollment at our local university and at a community college for a couple of courses each semester in 11th and 12th grades. One graduated with 35 hours of college and one with 30 hours.

 

One of my goals going this route was that the boys would learn the study skills, etc. necessary to be successful once they headed to university. In other words, my main goal was that they get a jump on their "college maturity" - or to put it another way, they would leapfrog over the freshman issues that seem to plague new students (study skills, responsibility, etc.)

 

Behavioral problems aren't an issue, but I've noticed that both sons have still had to adjust to the additional amount of studying required and both have struggled in the first year. The oldest overcame it quickly and is now appalled that he considered that first year hard when, in fact, it should have been his easiest year. He is still graduating this coming year with a 3.92 GPA (so far) so he did learn what he needed to do to be successful. Second son is struggling and I find that he has limited stamina - IOW, he feels that he has put in a huge effort when he spends a little time outside of class studying. His ACT score was higher than his brother's so I would have expected him to be doing better.

 

In thinking through this recently, it occurred to me that the university and CC courses they took really did not require much from them in order to be top students in the classes. And, I think, they felt that they were really just inherently smart and truly never learned to study diligently. The classes weren't necessarily just lower level, but included calculus, physics, Spanish, etc. They were not National Merit, but scored 28-30 on the ACT.

 

Could it be that the dual enrollment experience might have actually been detrimental? My next 2 sons are coming to the point where they can do dual enrollment. But I'm wondering if I would be better off just ramping up their courses at home rather than sending them somewhere that has courses they find easy only to be overwhelmed when they move to the university? But then again, I look at some of the roommates dss have had and I still see that these National Merit students have struggled as well. So is the "freshman experience" just going to happen? Is it something that cannot be avoided or dealt with early?

 

Would love to hear any philosophical musings or anecdotal experiences you have had in this situation. I'm really struggling with what to do with the 2 younger boys.

[regentrude]

I have no BTDT advice, but a few thoughts from my perspective as an instructor at a 4 year university, and from observing my DD take a university class in 8th grade.

 

One of my goals going this route was that the boys would learn the study skills, etc. necessary to be successful once they headed to university.

The amount of study skills required depends extremely on the individual class. I was hoping the College Physics class would pose a challenge for DD, but while she learned to take notes from the text and to adhere to a homework schedule, she was not really challenged and it did not give her an idea what a really hard college class would be like.

 

Second son is struggling and I find that he has limited stamina - IOW, he feels that he has put in a huge effort when he spends a little time outside of class studying.

Somebody needs to sit him down and tell him that the expectation is 2 hours out of class for every hour in class. My kids are growing up hearing this mantra, and we raise them to expect that kind of workload once they get to university.

 

His ACT score was higher than his brother's so I would have expected him to be doing better.

ACT score is not good for predicting college success, because a lot of it is work ethic. ACT does not measure long term commitment to a hard academic regime and long study hours.

In thinking through this recently, it occurred to me that the university and CC courses they took really did not require much from them in order to be top students in the classes. And, I think, they felt that they were really just inherently smart and truly never learned to study diligently. The classes weren't necessarily just lower level, but included calculus

Not all CC classes are equal. I have students every semester who transferred from a CC to our 4 year university; most of them tell me that CC did not prepare them for the level of class at our school, that they have to work a lot harder than in CC, and that they see a significant drop in GPA compared to CC.

 

Could it be that the dual enrollment experience might have actually been detrimental?

I do not think it is detrimental; the student just has to be aware that their experience with a few classes at CC does not mimic what it will be like with a full class load at a four year university. I see CC as a valuable resource for covering material that you have to outsource, but not necessarily for preparation for university.

 

But I'm wondering if I would be better off just ramping up their courses at home rather than sending them somewhere that has courses they find easy only to be overwhelmed when they move to the university?

With my children, I opt for a combination of rigorous courses at home and dual enrollment at a four year university, not at CC.

I do not think it is essential to take dual enrollment at all; it is more important to prepare the student to expect studying being a full time job once they get to the university. I do not think they have to practice that before they get there - but they should be prepared to expect a 50-60 hour week with a 16-18 hour class load. That is what many of my students have never been told.

[Miss Marple]

it is more important to prepare the student to expect studying being a full time job once they get to the university. I do not think they have to practice that before they get there - but they should be prepared to expect a 50-60 hour week with a 16-18 hour class load. That is what many of my students have never been told.

 

We have told them this for years. Based on our own university experience (dh is a physician and I'm a pharmacist) we know what they need to do and what to expect. But they have spent years seeing themselves as the best in our homeschool co-op, the best in their university courses (and they have done some at our local 4 year university) and in the CC courses. I've told them that the CC courses are, IMO, what a good rigorous high school course should be so they should not be overly confident. But, alas, at 18 our kids are smarter than we are :tongue_smilie: (or so they think). Oldest has realized that his parents were much smarter than he gave them credit for now that he is 21.

 

I told them this when they were taking dual enrollment courses but they proved me wrong. They *were* successful with minimal work. Their friends who are enrolled at the same CC have struggled....hence the boys think they are brilliant :001_rolleyes: There is no lack of self-esteem here LOL!

 

Today ds#2 left to go back to school after the weekend. He mentioned that this next week was going to be full of assignments and tests. I told him to expect to put 60-80 hours in this week and that there would be weeks like that (actually I mentioned that he should have done that last week as well in order to be prepared).

 

I'm sure ds#2 will end up doing fine, but he is struggling where I had hoped he wouldn't. Perhaps my expectations were misplaced? I fully agree about the ACT scores. Ds#1 had a 28 and has outperformed the national merit students in the same petroleum engineering program. He's in the top 5 of his class.

 

 

Ds#3 has always struggled academically where his brothers moved with ease. He does well, but it takes more effort and time compared to his brothers. He has no illusions about being brilliant :D although in many ways, I think he is more capable than the others. While I say he struggles, he still scored high enough on the ACT to be accepted for junior dual enrollment at our local 4 year university so it's really just a comparison with the other boys. I wonder if he would find the dual enrollment more challenging and perhaps benefit from it?

 

I guess I'm rethinking my goals for dual enrollment...

[BeckyFL]

what you hoped it would accomplish with your students? I've been musing about this recently because I now have 2 who have gone that route - dual enrollment at our local university and at a community college for a couple of courses each semester in 11th and 12th grades. One graduated with 35 hours of college and one with 30 hours.

 

One of my goals going this route was that the boys would learn the study skills, etc. necessary to be successful once they headed to university. In other words, my main goal was that they get a jump on their "college maturity" - or to put it another way, they would leapfrog over the freshman issues that seem to plague new students (study skills, responsibility, etc.)

 

Behavioral problems aren't an issue, but I've noticed that both sons have still had to adjust to the additional amount of studying required and both have struggled in the first year. The oldest overcame it quickly and is now appalled that he considered that first year hard when, in fact, it should have been his easiest year. He is still graduating this coming year with a 3.92 GPA (so far) so he did learn what he needed to do to be successful. Second son is struggling and I find that he has limited stamina - IOW, he feels that he has put in a huge effort when he spends a little time outside of class studying. His ACT score was higher than his brother's so I would have expected him to be doing better.

 

In thinking through this recently, it occurred to me that the university and CC courses they took really did not require much from them in order to be top students in the classes. And, I think, they felt that they were really just inherently smart and truly never learned to study diligently. The classes weren't necessarily just lower level, but included calculus, physics, Spanish, etc. They were not National Merit, but scored 28-30 on the ACT.

 

Could it be that the dual enrollment experience might have actually been detrimental? My next 2 sons are coming to the point where they can do dual enrollment. But I'm wondering if I would be better off just ramping up their courses at home rather than sending them somewhere that has courses they find easy only to be overwhelmed when they move to the university? But then again, I look at some of the roommates dss have had and I still see that these National Merit students have struggled as well. So is the "freshman experience" just going to happen? Is it something that cannot be avoided or dealt with early?

 

Would love to hear any philosophical musings or anecdotal experiences you have had in this situation. I'm really struggling with what to do with the 2 younger boys.

 

I think you really hit the nail on the head with your musings, at least in my experience. Ds 20 did very well with dual enrollment, graduated with 36 credits in even won the cc writing contest while still in high school. His 4 year school was a completely different story for him. Not only were the courses much harder, but he was at a whole different level because he came in as a 2nd year student. The following year it was almost worse... junior level courses took it up another notch and he was only 18. He really struggled with figuring out the changing expectations compared to his dual enrollment experience.

 

I have one more in high school now and I am having the very same thoughts that you are. I can't figure out whether to hold back completely or to do a few classes. Whatever we decide, I don't think it will be the 36 credits.

[OrdinaryTime]

I homeschooled the first two years of high school and then went to CC full-time for my junior and senior years. Speaking from my own experience, I found the transition to a four-year university to be very smooth. I felt better prepared than many of my peers because I was already accustomed to many of the academic differences between high school and college, ie, fewer tests, longer papers, more reading.

 

When I was at the CC, I (and my parents) did work hard to find the best professors avaible. Also, I took heavy course loads, usually 18-21 hours a semester. Plus I worked 15 hours a week in the CC tutoring center. After doing that for two years, 15 hours a semester and no job seemed like a vacation at my four year university! Seriously, while the classes were more challenging, I had been pushed to work hard and manage my time so well while I was at the CC that it was not a difficult transition.

[Brenda in MA]

My older son is currently a junior in college. He took 14 credits of CC courses, 2 fall of Sr yr & 2 spring of Sr yr. In retrospect, he is glad that he went to the CC for those courses. They did turn out to be pretty easy for him, but they were also an important confidence boost. He had such a bad experience in ps that when he came home in the 5th grade, he was a couple of years behind in math and felt he wasn't good at it. He caught up in math with hsing, but he still had a lot of those fears about his abilities lurking. His success at the CC really helped him to see that he could succeed in a classroom.

 

I also knew that confidence and adjusting to living away would likely be concerns for his first semester at away college. I helped him choose his classes that first term to make sure that he had a couple classes (like Calc) where he had already learned the material at home. That took the academic pressure off, since he only had 2 courses that term where he really had to work. His transition to college had its ups & downs, but he did well. He was a little dismayed to find that suddenly he was in a place where there are a lot of smart & capable kids, and he is only average ability-wise. He has to do well by working harder that a lot of the other kids. He's finally accepted that and has done pretty well.

 

I am also in the place where you are with my younger one (currently 10th grade). I'm trying to figure out what I want to have him take at the CC because I know that the quality of the courses there is just OK. He'd learn more at home, but then I won't have that piece of paper for college admissions showing that he can succeed in "real" college.

 

It seems to me that most kids struggle somewhat in adjusting to college life away from home. For some, it's the academics, for others, the social scene or time management is a challenge. I really think you have to look at each kid you're homeschooling and figure out what would be best for that kid. Some CC seems like a good idea for the validation aspect, but then in figuring out how much, you have to think about whether the student would be well served trying to earn a large number of credits that will transfer. If he places into higher level classes, he might struggle later -- or he might not -- it depends so much on the kid. Or maybe if confidence is an issue, you have him repeat a class he took at the CC so he'll have an easier time to transition.

 

Not a straightforward decision, I think.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

[choirfarm]

Well, I cannot answer your question completely because mine haven't gone to college yet. Part of my goal in having them attend cc is to have them answer to someone else, to go somewhere else, navigate things like moving from class to class, interacting with other students, getting a parking sticker, etc. Plus, I am doing classes that I cannot do at home. They are currently doing Spanish. Now oldest is finding it VERY easy because he did SOS Spanish I and half of 2. I could never get my middle one to buckle down and do any of it. He would get stuck in the 3rd or 4th unit and I didn't know how to help him.. Anyway, they both have an A and are finding the class very easy. On the last test, my middle one looked around and all he saw on the tests were grades in the 60's. He told me, "Mom... I'm not that smart. These people are either really dumb or they don't really try." I've heard many, many stories from my c0-op that professors at the cc LOVE homeschool students. They actually try and do the homework. Just this week one woman was talking about an English class her daughter had in the spring. The prof always used her daughter as an example. She was the only one who had her homework every week. She told her she thought she was wasting this girl's time. I plan to have my middle one do his college algebra and trig classes there...who knows, if he does well maybe pre-calc. He will NOT be going into a math driven field. So he can get his credits out of the way in an easy place. There is absolutely no way I would let my oldest take any math classes there at all.

 

Now, we are also doing PA HOmeschoolers online for AP classes. Although my oldest was dreading Spanish, he told me that he now realizes that those classes will be his hardest ones this year. Last year he had quite an adjustment for AP Stats, but persevered and made an A and a 5 on the exam. He is finding AP Government easier this year, but AP Chem to be pretty tough. My 9th grader is having the learning curve this year as to how much work AP Government is taking. I plan to have him take at least 1 AP class with them a year. I don't know if he could handle 2 like my oldest. Maybe when he is a junior.

 

So it is a combo for me.

 

Christine

[creekland]

He'd learn more at home, but then I won't have that piece of paper for college admissions showing that he can succeed in "real" college.

 

 

 

This is a huge one for us. Colleges want to see that students were successful in more than just homeschool courses. CC classes are one way to "prove" it.

 

It seems to me that most kids struggle somewhat in adjusting to college life away from home. For some, it's the academics, for others, the social scene or time management is a challenge. I really think you have to look at each kid you're homeschooling and figure out what would be best for that kid. Some CC seems like a good idea for the validation aspect, but then in figuring out how much, you have to think about whether the student would be well served trying to earn a large number of credits that will transfer. If he places into higher level classes, he might struggle later -- or he might not -- it depends so much on the kid. Or maybe if confidence is an issue, you have him repeat a class he took at the CC so he'll have an easier time to transition.

 

Not a straightforward decision, I think.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

 

:iagree:

 

My guys have not gone far enough to tell if the cc classes were worth it or not. My oldest is glad he took his English class at the cc as taking the same class at his 4 year school would have been tougher. :glare: I'm not so sure keeping the credits was wise for the exact same reason.

 

Back to the ACT (or SAT) score topic... Those score ONLY show aptitude - the potential for doing well. Whether or not the student lives up to their potential is incredibly variable and WHY most colleges want to see other "proof" (including demanding classes or extra curricular initiative) to try to get a grasp on who will do well and who isn't as likely to.

 

There are many potential pitfalls in college - falling in love, so many activities, never having had to "work" before (at academics), homesickness, peer pressure, pure laziness, and probably many more I'm not thinking of at the moment. I seriously don't think cc classes are better or worse at preparing for these temptations in general. For any one individual they might be.

[Jane in NC]

For us, the CC was a way of allowing my son to test the waters of what I considered a half way step between high school and college. Granted, our CC is not large and, having taught there, I know faculty and the reputations of faculty. Thus we cherry picked instructors when we could. This allowed my son to take an English composition course with a demanding and tough prof whom most kids avoid.

 

Despite the reputation of his history prof (whom he adored) I could see from the work load that the CC class was not of a sufficiently high caliber. My son learned to take copious notes and write multiple essays on a timed exam. Given how I was inclined to offer elasticity on deadlines, it was a good thing in general for The Boy to spend a few semesters with firm deadlines and ticking clocks.

 

My son's college (a private LAC) does not transfer credit from dual enrollment. A couple of parents with whom I spoke thought that this was an outrage. Had my son attended a school in the UNC system, his credits would have transferred. But having taught at both the local CC and at several schools within the UNC system, I felt that the coursework was not comparable--despite the articulation agreement that allows for transfer of credit. (This is a touchy subject. It is not my purpose to offend but to give an observation based on my own experience in academic halls.)

 

For us, though, the CC served a valid purpose. There was validation of those Mommy grades--although dual enrollment is not the only way of accomplishing this. The deadline issue--balancing say a paper deadline with a test day--is good to have before a student sets off for more challenging academic experiences. And I am glad that he was able to take chemistry at the CC which offered a good lab experience.

 

My son thought that I did not know what I was talking about when I told him that his LAC would be quite different from the CC. When we saw him at Thanksgiving of his first semester, he admitted that the two academic experiences were light years apart. His LAC is a writing intensive school. It does not matter if students have AP English credits. Every first year student begins his academic life with a writing intensive seminar (across the disciplines) in which a paper is due weekly. The amount of reading that is expected exceeds his former CC assignments. The caliber of class discussion demands a level of preparation that students at his CC never achieved.

 

Educational maturity can be fostered but this remains something that our students must develop as they find their passions. Frankly, some people never quite grow. There is a mindset some students have that knowledge is compartmentalized, that college is a sheet in which courses are checked off and filed away. To me, part of the transition that our students make is realizing that education no longer means completing the assignments and earning A's on tests. There is an integration of big ideas with which one grapples. Hopefully our students find peers and dynamic instructors as they mature.

 

Back to the original question: It seemed to us that CC or AP were good ways to demonstrate that our homeschooled son could rise to future challenges. My son did some of each. AP brings its own issues, both philosophical and practical. It does seem that college admissions people really do like to see some outside validation. Balancing the needs of your student with this practical aspect may be required. Yet I am glad that my son also made the time for a senior project. That seemed to define him more than standardized tests or outside classes.

[NCMom]

Short answer - no.

 

Going to the CC gave my oldest an inflated sense of his work and has not prepared him for a 4 year school. He has had TEACHERS tell him that he must do more to prepare than what they can offer him in the classes.

 

My middle and youngest will dual enroll at a 4 year where you get 1 free class per semester 11th and 12th grade years. It is a small LAC, not very impressive, but still better than our local CC. We only do this to back-up mommy grades. Our at-home classes will still be more rigorous.

 

It is not the teachers, the classes, the texts...it is the fact that ALL of the classes have to be dumbed down at the CC because the local high schools are not preparing the kids. Something like >85% of incoming students in this CC require remediation. It is bad here.

 

Uugh, I depressed myself. :glare:

Georgia

[memphispeg]

My youngest Dd did not want to do dual enrollment. I do think that it would be a good idea to take 1 course a semester that way during jr. and sr. year. It need not be anything complicated, it could even be fun! If I had it to do all over again, I would do the "hard stuff" at home and farm out economics or government or an art class or beginning foreign language. Dd could have done "well" in those at cc and gained some validation.

My oldest dd is away at college as a jr. She went to ps. What she felt prepared her best for the "freshman experience" was going away in the summer for a few weeks to dance programs. When she was 17 she had to cook and manage her own transportation when she participated. She found it hard but, it was a good management experience. She was Natl. Merit and did v. well at her highly-challenging ps but, she was appalled by how many better-educated students there were in college. The work was hard for her, a totally different quality of tasks, but she figured it out by mid-sophomore year. Social adjustment has been tougher, it is hard to do well and have a raucous social life(?)

[K-FL]

For us it was wonderful! In FL, the classes/fees are free, but homeschoolers have to cover the books. Huge savings regardless! As to the "freshman experience" quandary, I think a lot depends on the student. Some have difficulty adjusting to being on their own (either by going wild, or lazy) some take it all in stride. The cc classes may fend off some of that since they do have some idea of what they're getting into.

 

Dd#1 completed her AA so that she only had to do 2yrs at the higher priced U. She's happy to be done w/her BA 2yrs before her peers too! That gives her time to pay off her loans (only 2yrs worth) & decide what she wants to do from here. She went to a private, in-state school & they accepted all her credits and she was eligible for all the freshman scholarships too.

 

Dd#2 was just 2 classes shy of her AA. Since she decided to go for her BSN, she needs 9 pre-reqs before starting the nursing program proper. If she'd decided earlier, she would have taken the right sciences (Anatomy & Physiology instead of Astronomy) and could have applied directly to the program. If all goes to plan, she'll still finish a yr earlier than her peers. She's at a state school, full matriculation in FL, and they also considered her a First-time-in-college.

[Gwen in VA]

My older two kids did mostly AP's (5-6 each) with two CC or 4-year college classes thrown in the mix.

 

My third is doing 100% CC classes this year and did four his junior year. I am NOT impressed with the CC classes, even though our CC is supposedly the best in our section of the state.

 

For our next, we will go the AP route except for calc 1 & 2, which she will take at the 4-year college.

 

In our experience, the AP route is much more rigorous and challenging and the kids really LEARN. I am very dismayed at the low standards of the CC and feel strongly that it does next to nothing to prepare a kid for college. The AP classes though PAH and other providers, however, did a great job preparing my older kids for college!

 

(I know it depends on the college and the individual professor, but I truly feel as though I threw my money and my son's time away this semester!)

[abbeyej]

...In thinking through this recently, it occurred to me that the university and CC courses they took really did not require much from them in order to be top students in the classes. And, I think, they felt that they were really just inherently smart and truly never learned to study diligently. ...

Could it be that the dual enrollment experience might have actually been detrimental? ...

 

I'm not there. My oldest is in 8th.

 

But what you wrote about your older boys struck such a chord with me for my *own* experience that I just wanted to chime in for a moment. ...

 

I was home schooled K-8. Then I went to a private school for a year, then an IB public school for two years. I wasn't "dual-enrolled", but I took my first AP exam at the end of 9th grade, and for 10th and 11th grades nearly all of my classes were AP and/or IB courses, etc, etc. It was *supposed* to be really demanding college-level work.

 

But I learned very quickly once I started school that it did not require my best efforts to get an A. At home, I really was expected to get everything right. If I did less than stellar work, it was repeated until it was right. If I didn't get everything right on a test, I fixed it until it was right. (And this wasn't even all coming from parents or anything. It came from me as well. Of course I would do things properly...) At school, I learned that half-a**ed for me would still get me an A. So why on earth would I do more?

 

I started college on a full scholarship after my junior year of high school. (I don't remember the exact number of credits they gave me going in, but it was in the 30+ range.) I struggled. And I do NOT think I struggled because of my age. I think I struggled because I had learned to be *lazy*. And, truthfully, some of my college classes still allowed that. But others really did need a self-motivated learner, and it took me a couple of years to adjust and become the same sort of learner I had been going from 8th-9th grade. I graduated and all that. I never lost my scholarship. I didn't do great, but by most standards I did "well". Ugh. I'm still a bit disgusted. ;)

 

So I do wonder about this with regard to my own kids. Ds is in 8th grade this year and doing three classes outside the home. After he takes AP calculus in 10th grade, I'm not totally sure what we'll do about math. Dual-enrollment is tempting for other classes too -- foreign language, Latin after the AP level (likely 10th grade also)... But if I look at the quality of the community colleges in our area, I doubt it would have anything positive to offer...

 

I don't *know*.

 

But I do worry about it. Part of the reason I push my kids is because I don't want them to get used to thinking it's okay to put in minimal effort. Could that backfire though, when they realize that's perfectly acceptable elsewhere? Sigh.

Edited October 10, 2011 by abbeyej

[Miss Marple]

(I know it depends on the college and the individual professor, but I truly feel as though I threw my money and my son's time away this semester!)

 

We experienced this to some degree as well with ds#2. I had fewer complaints with the quality of courses/professors with ds#1, but ds#2 had courses that sometimes seemed to be less rigorous than what we did at home (they still had courses at home while they did a couple of CC courses).

 

I know that the CC and regional 4 year university experienced record enrollment during the period of time ds#2 was taking dual enrolled courses. Maybe that had something to do with it...

Edited October 10, 2011 by CynthiaOK

[Jane Elliot]

 

In our experience, the AP route is much more rigorous and challenging and the kids really LEARN.

 

This seems accurate to me. One of our college juniors has a job as a peer adviser at his college. Basically it's his job to keep tabs on a group of freshman to make sure they're doing all right. If a student from his group is failing a class, he has to track them down to see what's going on. He also has a job as a teaching assistant for a freshman chemistry class. He has said it's the kids who did AP, and not the kids who did cc, who seem to have a sense of the work required to do well.

 

Incidentally, this ds didn't do AP, CC, or any outside classes at all. CC has never been an option for us as it's such a distance from our home, and AP just wasn't on my radar back then. He says it was his cow herd that helped him do well in college; they taught him to work hard when he didn't want to. And here I always hated those stupid houdini cows.:tongue_smilie:

[Miss Marple]

I'm truly enjoying and learning from the experiences of all of you. I'm gaining insight into my own expectations of dual enrollment and realizing that some of my goals may have been unrealistic. As many of you mentioned, we, too, dual enroll for validation of the homeschool transcript (one of several main goals) and maybe that's the more important goal. I know that this validation was very important in ds#1 gaining freshman scholarships. And, too, I'm just not too thrilled at the thought of teaching calculus at home. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one struggling with this issue...I'm in good company :001_smile:

[JennW in SoCal]

I have a minute or two before I have to leave and take my ds to his cc classes...

 

I see nothing but positives in taking cc classes. It is teaching my son how to be completely responsible for himself -- having to prepare for tests and keep deadlines in mind, having to ask questions of the professor. Mom isn't seeing where he is stuck, anticipating his trouble spots and stepping in.

 

His fellow students quickly figured out he is the one to go to for help, and he has gotten to be a decent math tutor. He is astounded that so many kids don't do the homework and studying, and is looking forward to being in a small LAC next year with a group of peers who also enjoy learning.

 

I've got a couple of anecdotes from the standpoint of a college professor about the short comings of a pure AP prep. AP courses don't teach kids how to discuss, analyze and articulate original thinking. It is rigorous, but a fast paced and rigorous memorization course. I know 2 professors, one in English and one in Economics, who are both frustrated that students don't know how to discuss in class, who can't make connections and apply what they've learned to novel situations.

 

I ultimately believe that there is no single right or wrong way to go about high school. Success in college is up to the child -- all we can do is offer the the tools but they are going to have to decide to use them.

 

Got to run now!!

[choirfarm]

I.

 

I've got a couple of anecdotes from the standpoint of a college professor about the short comings of a pure AP prep. AP courses don't teach kids how to discuss, analyze and articulate original thinking. It is rigorous, but a fast paced and rigorous memorization course. I know 2 professors, one in English and one in Economics, who are both frustrated that students don't know how to discuss in class, who can't make connections and apply what they've learned to novel situations.

 

Got to run now!!

 

Well...that has been the opposite for us.. CC ask for no original thinking, the AP classes do.. That is why my 9th grader is having a fit.. For AP Government a couple of weeks ago, one assignment was to listen to political songs from 4 different artists: Black Eyed Peas, rapper eimeniem (sp???) Martina McBride. They had to analyze what the songs said and had to answer various questions about the politics involved. Many, many of their short answer, essay questions are not right or wrong but use the information you know and come up with your answer. It is driving him crazy..

 

Christine

[memphispeg]

AP or advanced classes should be requiring analytical work but, in my older dd's opinion they were all taught to the test and little else. I think our "advanced" homeschool classes are better. Dd likes the World Lit and calc and physics that require her to show her learning. Art History seems more worthwhile without the onus of AP-type memorization, etc. AP scores are validating but, we will try to do without. If the homeschool police come knocking they can see our binders.....

[AngieW in Texas]

I think the dual enrollment classes were essential for my oldest. She always tried to skate by on the absolute least she thought she could get away with. She didn't do that for her cc classes. They were more real for her.

 

It was very important for her learn how to read a syllabus, how to email a teacher to ask for clarification, how to use blackboard, and all the other things she had to go through while she was still home and could get my help as needed.

 

She really freaked out her first week at college (before classes started), but at least she wasn't worried about how to handle the academic side of things. She already knew that. She went through the advising process with me her 11th grade year, but she did it by herself her 12th grade year.

 

I think the experience of taking notes for a class, having firm deadlines that don't get moved for any reason, taking tests in a classroom with a set amount of time available, ... all of it was great preparation.

[Nan in Mass]

Well...

 

All three of mine have done cc classes. My main goal was to get them used to being in a classroom. In other words, I was trying to get them up to where they weren't quite so behind their peers when it came to classroom skills and academic skills (for example, note-taking from a lecture, something we don't practise at home). The cc classes were definately better than nothing. Way way better than nothing. Did it give mine a head start over their peers and make college easier for them? For two out of three - no, and I don't know yet about the third. Other things did give them an advantage, but the advantage isn't one that necessarily shows up in their grades. They still struggled to get used to the college work load. It did not help at all that they were very obviously more intelligent than many of their classmates. There was a fair amount of grumbling that their classmates were getting better grades despite being "dumb as a door nail". They knew why, but that didn't make it any easier to make themselves sit down and do the work. For mine, college is just plain hard work, hard work under depressing conditions. Every semester turns into an endurance test - how long can you keep working before you get depressed and stop being able to make yourself keep going. We've talked about it. We offer support. They know what they have to do. We can't do it for them. They have to find the magic combination of enough outside activities to stay motivated and cheerful, and enough studying to stay in school. I think it would have been a total disaster not to have had those cc classes beforehand. Besides, I'm not sure they would have been accepted to college without them.

 

I can't wait to read the rest of the posts. This is something I have wondered about and thought about a lot. But right now, I have to do Spanish flashcards and French grammar and literature GRIN.

 

Nan

[Miss Marple]

There was a fair amount of grumbling that their classmates were getting better grades despite being "dumb as a door nail". They knew why, but that didn't make it any easier to make themselves sit down and do the work.

 

This is exactly what is happening with ds#2 right now :) He said he was "tutoring" chemistry for some of the kids in his discussion section yet his grades certainly didn't show it. But I'm thinking it's the combination of everything being due in the same week. He had a huge calculus homework due, the engineering job fair (which was a requirement for him to attend - so he had to put together a resume and get a suit), a chemistry test, and a freshman comp paper. I think endurance is the problem - and he tends to get discouraged easily. For ds#1, failure to perform was always incentive to do more the next time, but for ds#2 it translates into, "I don't think the professor likes me" :nopity: For both, I believe it is a lack of spending enough quality time studying. He thinks he is putting in the hours, but I don't believe he is putting in the hours in an effective manner.

 

I'm so thankful that others are having similar issues. That sounds bad, I know, I really don't want others to suffer, but it's nice to know mine are fairly normal :)

[FloridaLisa]

My dc have done AP, CC dual-enrollment and university dual-enrollment. I've learned there is no one perfect route! In fact, I love that, as homeschoolers, our dc are able to cherry pick what fits!

 

In our experience, APs have generally been more rigorous and require more WORK than CC classes. More reading, more writing, higher level thinking and higher expectations. CC classes, though, have provided the college experience: how to read a syllabus, how to figure out what a professor wants on tests, how to study for multiple final exams in a week. My dc's experience with university-level dual enrollment has been mixed, has been pretty equal to their freshman college experience.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Mary in GA]

I've been really interested in this thread. I have one who went the dual enrollment route and was planning to do the same with this next dc.

 

Ds did dual enrollment at a local small university, and some of the courses were definitely what I call soft. I thought the history and English classes he took were way too easy. I think I had a more rigorous experience when I was in high school and took AP. However, if he had taken his physics and calc at the large university he subsequently transferred into, he would have died a quick academic death and never qualified for his excellent co-op job! So it's a mixed bag for me. I would really like dd to have a richer experience in classes like history or English.

 

In this state dual enrollment students attend college tuition free under a program that is a subset of the HOPE scholarship. That's a huge benefit for us. We'll see.

 

Mary

[mamakim]

As many of you mentioned, we, too, dual enroll for validation of the homeschool transcript (one of several main goals) and maybe that's the more important goal. I know that this validation was very important in ds#1 gaining freshman scholarships. And, too, I'm just not too thrilled at the thought of teaching calculus at home. I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one struggling with this issue...I'm in good company :001_smile:

 

:iagree:This.

 

Our son who had a rough transition had it because, as a previous poster noted, of homesickness, falling in love . . . things that were outside of academics altogether. Hard to even evaluate how cc prepared or did not, given this reality. Ds #2 seems to be transitioning well while finding being plunged straight into upper level uni courses a huge daunting scramble. But like you, we'd warned him and it wasn't a surprise.

[Nan in Mass]

So - thinking about this, since these are all issues that have worried me...

 

I think this is what I am going to do:

 

I am going to find an excellent public school student (a cousin - my son has watched how hard and how neatly she works) and point out that the top colleges take that one-in-several-high-schools student and combine her with others just like her from other regions and make up a class of students who all are that bright and who all expect and are expected to work that hard.

 

I am going to point out that we chose to homeschool loosely and less academically, and that because of that, he has large gaps (deliberate ones - we took time to work on other areas of knowledge) and has had far far less practice with textbook, academic, classroom learning, so that even though he is as bright as the other students, he is going to have to work harder than those other students for the same grades.

 

I am going to make sure I continue to point out the function of community colleges and make sure that my son understands that the work he is being required to do there, even though it is taking lots of time and hard work, is really only the equivalent of high school, and that the reason it is taking so long is that he doesn't have his study skills down pat yet.

 

I am going to be careful not to pick courses that would make my son go into his 4-year college taking something other than freshman classes because I think that might be setting him up for disaster. It depends on the college, of course, but it looks like he might be going to test decently, making it possible for him to go to one of the better colleges, not top but something better than our fairly good community college.

 

I am going to be aware of and point out to my son the differences between taking two or three classes in a small classroom from a professor and taking five freshman classes in a huge lecture hall or with a grad student whose English is hard to understand. (But in their defence, I have to point out that the hard-to-understand grad students had superior teaching skills, at least the ones I had. They apparently had some instruction in how to teach, something many of my regular professors seemed to lack.)

 

I am going to emphasize study skills and time management, but make sure my son is aware that applying them in a dorm situation is very much harder than as an only child at home (brothers are away at college) and talk about strategies that will work in distracting environments, like finding an empty classroom to study in.

 

I am going to try to emphasize making a plan and sticking to it. This is key, I think, for my son.

 

Have I missed anything?

Nan

Edited October 12, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[Home_s_Cool]

It was very important for her learn how to read a syllabus, how to email a teacher to ask for clarification, how to use blackboard, and all the other things she had to go through while she was still home and could get my help as needed.

 

I think the experience of taking notes for a class, having firm deadlines that don't get moved for any reason, taking tests in a classroom with a set amount of time available, ... all of it was great preparation.

 

At 16, my daughter started taking cc classes. This year she is going full time before she leaves for a 4-year college.

 

AP courses are not an option for us - so cc (to me) fit the bill in various ways.

 

I really agree with others that there is no perfect path for preparing them for the "college experience". All of these experiences are preparing her for further education.

 

There are 4-year colleges she could attend, but they are much more costly and the cc is 10 minutes from our house.

 

I have yet to find a negative to what we are doing.

[memphispeg]

I think the experience of taking notes for a class, having firm deadlines that don't get moved for any reason, taking tests in a classroom with a set amount of time available, ... all of it was great preparation.

The lack of these skills is why my dd left ps. I have yet to improve her functioning on this level. Dd claims that I give too much work (???!!!!) but, I feel my emphasis HAS to be intellectual development. I guess I could hope for a miracle in the time/task management realm but, I think the solution may be that our Sr. spring is going to be devoted towards emphasizing these skills in service to the academic learning.

[Jen the RD]

So - thinking about this, since these are all issues that have worried me...

 

I think this is what I am going to do:

 

I am going to find an excellent public school student (a cousin - my son has watched how hard and how neatly she works) and point out that the top colleges take that one-in-several-high-schools student and combine her with others just like her from other regions and make up a class of students who all are that bright and who all expect and are expected to work that hard.

 

 

 

Nan, you've made some excellent points and I've saved your whole post:001_smile:, but I'm highlighting this one section in particular. I wish someone had told ME this when I went to college. I was one of the top students in my graduating class, but when I went to UGA and saw the level of students in some of classes, I was floored at the competition. It was a rude awakening for me. It forced me to learn "how" to study, but I don't think I really figured it all out until the end of my sophomore yr/beginingin of jr yr. :tongue_smilie: So, guess what I'm talking to my kids about!!!

 

This thread has been very informative for me, personally. Dd is in 8th this year and dh and I have been researching options for HS. Of course, one being the use of cc classes. From my own experience, those classes were less difficult than my classes at UGA and because I transferred hours from other colleges, I unfortunately lost quite a few classes. UGA's response was that they didn't match the rigor/depth that their classes would, so guess what, I had to repeat classes. As a student, I HATED that; as a parent, I look back and HATE the money that was spent, KWIM?! BUT, from many of your experiences, it seems that you have looked beyond all that and thought of the "cc route" to just be a part of the whole educational journey, whether it cost money or not. HMMM, this is definite food for thought for us. I have to keep telling myself not to focus on just the money, but the whole journey---you know, like building one brick at a time.

 

I just want to say thanks, Cynthia, for starting this thread, and thanks to the HIVE for all your thought provoking answers.

 

Warmly,

Jennifer

[TravelingChris]

My oldest did not do CC classes because we were overseas. He had a hard time transitioning but not because of that. It had everything to do with that he wasn't taking his ADHD medicine consistently and thus was forgetting assignments, etc.

 

My middle took 2 rigorous CC classes. One was an honors class in Psychology which required a paper every week. One was a 200 level Crim Justice class which required extensive written answers every week, large amounts of reading, research paper, and tests. Both classes helped her. So far she only has one midterm grade and that is a 104.2 (out of 100) in Political Science. I think she it is likely she will be getting straight A;s this semester. Why? Because she takes her medications (also ADHD) and she works very hard.

 

I know that the CC classes weren't the only reason she is doing well. SHe also had some rigorous outside classes too and I kept her working hard also. But the main thing that really helped her was last year (her Senior year) where she had to manage writing her debate case, writing many briefs for debate (at least one each week and they were usually somewhere between 15-45 pages), her Criminology CC class, her 20th Century lit class where there was a book every other week and a paper the opposite week, her computer programming class, college applications, and finally the classes I supervised- math, physics, Spanish. It was such a hectic schedule that college is taking it easy for her.

[creekland]

I am going to make sure I continue to point out the function of community colleges and make sure that my son understands that the work he is being required to do there, even though it is taking lots of time and hard work, is really only the equivalent of high school, and that the reason it is taking so long is that he doesn't have his study skills down pat yet.

 

Nan

 

I think you have a good plan, Nan. The note I quoted above is what we see cc classes as too - honors high school classes that provide both confirmation of GPA and Letters of Recommendation to four year schools. Sometimes the reason it can take so long isn't lack of study skills, sometimes there is just a lot to be memorized (as with my son's microbio course). However, my thought is that IF a cc course matches a 4 year school, great. If not, fine. They are just a step on our path. They aren't the whole path for us.

 

Then too, remember that we can SAY all we want. Sometimes for our kids to actually learn or understand what we say they actually have to experience it. That can be frustrating (trust me, I know!!!), but it's extremely normal.

 

We do the best we can, then hope for the best (some of us adding prayer).

[Beth S]

Our oldest (20yo dd) did all her nursing pre-requisites at our local cc, then went right into the cc's nursing program after hs graduation. Her dual-enrollment experience made the transition smoother, and she took mainly hard sciences and the gen eds.

 

Our second child (17yo ds) has taken ENG 101 + 102, and will take more gen eds this Spring before hs graduation. He knows that engineering school will be MUCH harder than the courses he's taking now. (He takes Adv Physics and Calc at home.) However, the pressure and deadlines are making his transition MUCH easier than if he jumped from homeschool to an out-of-town 4 year engineering school.

 

In addition, he was hired to be a Math Lab Technician. He is currently helping non-traditional students pass the on-line remedial Algebra courses they need, with on-campus help anytime of the day. He works as a team with the Math professors. This has been an invaluable experience as he operates in an adult environment.

 

I guess all of these decisions depend on the individual, the courses, the attitudes, etc. But for us, it has been a great transition--realizing that there are more difficult challenges ahead (for the rest of our lives)!