HSLDA and politics

[Mrs Mungo]

I have yet to see an issue anywhere in real life where one side thinks how they see something is the way it should be and that other viewpoints are not valid and thus should not be voiced. Democrats would love it if Republicans had to shut up, just as Republicans would like to not have to listen to Democrats. That's what I mean by "it's a free country."

 

I don't think you understand what I am saying. The other thread offers specific examples of hslda going into a situation and *taking over* the discussion with legisilators which means only *one* voice of homeschooling is heard by those who govern. It isn't about wishing, it is about their *actions*.

[Jenny in Florida]

According to hslda, it is damaging to the traditional idea of family, and therefore homeschooling. Any single or divorced parents should take note.

 

See, the way I read their "argument," it just means that married gays and lesbians should definitely have the right to homeschool.

 

As I've said before in these discussions about the HSLDA and the BSA, I absolutely support the rights of organizations to hold political and social beliefs that differ from mine. Since I value my rights to think for myself and decide what I believe and to speak my mind about issues, I recognize that I have to support the rights of others to do the same things.

 

What bothers me about the HSLDA (and the BSA, for that matter) is that they present themselves as organizations that exist for one purpose -- pretend to be big tent groups -- but actually have all kinds of positions that have little to nothing to do with the stated purpose.

 

Sure, it's all there on their websites, but many (most?) people don't do that much research.

 

(Okay, I actually went searching on their website for any information about their stance against marriage equality. I'm looking at "Federal Advocacy," "My State" and "About," and I don't see any clear information that they do anything other than promote and defend homeschooling. I guess it isn't "right there.")

 

I think it is misleading to call yourself the Homeschool Legal Defense Association and then lobby for issues that are, at best, tenuously connected.

[Jenny in Florida]

Well, then GET one! HSLDA specifically states that by joining them, they are under no obligation to help a homeschooling family with law issues, and that they absolutely will not intervene in issues regarding custody (but, strangely, will do so in issues with grandparents :confused:).

 

If they otherwise think you are acceptable under their standards. Maybe.

[G5052]

What bothers me about the HSLDA (and the BSA, for that matter) is that they present themselves as organizations that exist for one purpose -- pretend to be big tent groups -- but actually have all kinds of positions that have little to nothing to do with the stated purpose.

 

 

This is why we did not renew with HSLDA. Certainly they have done a lot for homeschooling if you look at their work over the years, but we are wary enough of para-church organizations as it is and had come to believe that we had to part ways. Not that you ever get a 100% match when you join an organization, but sometimes you do have to step away even if there is some level of agreement. Where that line is varies of course.

[pageta]

I don't think you understand what I am saying. The other thread offers specific examples of hslda going into a situation and *taking over* the discussion with legisilators which means only *one* voice of homeschooling is heard by those who govern. It isn't about wishing, it is about their *actions*.

 

I am sorry but I don't understand how they could "take over" the discussion with legislators. They may step in and have a lot of sway because they are an established organization with experience in lobbying, but that doesn't stop everyone else from calling their representatives and letting their voice be heard as well. I say this as someone who has more than once gone before city councils and other legislative bodies and provided testimony on various issues solely as a concerned citizen.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I am sorry but I don't understand how they could "take over" the discussion with legislators. They may step in and have a lot of sway because they are an established organization with experience in lobbying, but that doesn't stop everyone else from calling their representatives and letting their voice be heard as well. I say this as someone who has more than once gone before city councils and other legislative bodies and provided testimony on various issues solely as a concerned citizen.

 

Yes, I can call my legislators ... if HSLDA hasn't gotten there first and convinced Joe Senator that they represent all homeschoolers and there is really no need to listen to Mom from Naperville.

 

But, the reality is ... legislating is done via back room deals. HSLDA manages to convince people they are THE voice of homeschoolers and gets invited (or elbows their way in) to that table. Mom from Naperville does not. Also, it is pretty hard to testify at a hearing when HSLDA has arranged to be the only speaker representing homeschoolers despite the fact that there may be hundreds to thousands ready and willing to testify. This has happened twice in IL. (Actually, this last time, there was a big uproar from homeschoolers who are not the conservative Christian right and we did manage to get a woman outside their system on the panel.) We are currently dealing with a situation where a senator is trying to introduce legislation that appears to help homeschoolers, but actually hurts those in his own state. This legislation is strongly supported by HSLDA - who knows, maybe they helped write it.

 

Also, in other states, they have managed to push local statewide groups out of the way and push for legislation that actually made things worse, thus giving themselves more business.

 

So these tactics, more than their political positions, is my main objection to HSLDA.

[Mrs Mungo]

I agree with Ellen. There are specific examples of this in the other thread that was linked. There is no need for me to repeat it all. If you don't care enough to read it, that is fine. I am not going to bother arguing with someone who isn't interested in exploring the actual claims.

[Audrey]

Whether or not something should be legislated or turned into public policy is an opinion and a viewpoint. Personally, I think the government should stay out of things as little as possible. But some people think government is what we should turn to to "fix" everything. Differing viewpoints...

 

 

To the bolded: So, you are saying that you think government stay out as little as possible, meaning that they should be more involved, which is the same thing as turning to government more often, which is not a differing viewpoint at all.

[twoforjoy]

Not to sidetrack, but I have trouble with the idea of people "turning to the government to fix things." Last I checked, in a democracy we ARE the government. So, when the government "fixes" things, it's because the people decided things needed to be fixed and decided to do it.

 

What's the alternative? Waiting for corporations to swoop in and save us? Sure, people can get together on a small scale and work on things. But people getting together en masse to tackle problems is sort of what the government is, or at least should be and sometimes is.

[Audrey]

Not to sidetrack, but I have trouble with the idea of people "turning to the government to fix things." Last I checked, in a democracy we ARE the government. So, when the government "fixes" things, it's because the people decided things needed to be fixed and decided to do it.

 

What's the alternative? Waiting for corporations to swoop in and save us? Sure, people can get together on a small scale and work on things. But people getting together en masse to tackle problems is sort of what the government is, or at least should be and sometimes is.

 

What are you? Some kind of Canadian or something? ;)

[PeacefulChaos]

http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/264/parental-rights.html

 

I found the above very interesting. I had never heard of it from that side - I must admit, some of the people I know had posted things about the CRC and the proposed amendment and the way that everything pro-amendment makes things sound, it seemed completely logical - the UN would have this CRC which would supersede the rights of parents/state laws/etc, so we needed the amendment so that it couldn't do that. So that isn't what it is?

 

I don't think that is necessarily so. I think that many Christian homeschoolers homeschool for RELIGIOUS reasons rather than for other reasons such as quality of education or whatever, which may give that impression. This was a recent insight for me when I heard someone speak on reasons for homeschooling, and it revolved around religious reasons and the ideas and attitudes that were taught in public school (vs say, ps kids not being able to read...aka quality of education). We are Christian, but we homeschool because we think we can give my kids a better quality education than they would get in the big machine of public school. I think many secular homeschoolers have similar reasons that have nothing to do with religion.

 

:iagree: This is us as well.

We're extremely conservative Christians, but nothing made me angrier than hearing of people who homeschool because they were afraid of the big, bad public school, were convinced that ps was a hive of scum and villainy, and who never even LOOKED at ps because they had in their minds that there was NO way it could ever be good enough in a very holier-than-thou way (you know, like all Christians should homeschool - I mean, how could any good Christian do anything but? Well, maybe, if you are willing to pay $5000 a year for the private Christian school, your kids still won't turn out to be criminals. That type of thing.) That attitude still p*sses me off. :glare:

Then, of course, I started homeschooling. :lol: My reasons are purely educational - well, maybe a little of other stuff (DS5 learning to flip people off on the bus on the field trip with me in the seat next to him! :lol: But we'd already decided to hs by then), DH's are more the religious reasons (things 'taught' in schools, etc), but overall I don't mind what the reasons are as long as he agrees with me on it. :D

I also have to admit that until the last thread on here, I was planning to join HSLDA come spring (when I replenish my hs budget for the year). While I don't mind any of the other things they support at present, I don't see the point in me joining them to support those causes when there really isn't much else to gain from a membership. I'm pretty sure we'd fall under their 'approval' as far as everything else goes - but we follow the law regarding hsing and I just don't see the point. While I don't mind their other 'causes', if I wanted to support them I'd do it elsewhere - not in an organization that is supposed to be for homeschooling. That's where I stand right now, at least.

[pageta]

To the bolded: So, you are saying that you think government stay out as little as possible, meaning that they should be more involved, which is the same thing as turning to government more often, which is not a differing viewpoint at all.

 

Sorry, typo. Stay out as MUCH as possible.

[cbollin]

Now, I completely realize that one anecdotal story doesn't make a statistical analysis - but honestly - how many people do you know - KNOW - not heard of - KNOW - that have had a social worker show up at their door? What led up to that? And was it something HSLDA would help with?

 

a

 

well.. raising my hand here... I was visited by social worker about 1 year ago this week.

 

What led up to it?

Someone at my church was mad at me, and used it for revenge. Among the lies about me to the social worker was that I was not at home much and the children were not in school. And that I was a bad mom for letting my daughter wear her favorite clothes that had a hole in the knee. And because I was taking anti anxiety med while getting treatment for some menstrual issues, the person claimed that I was mentally ill and therefore shouldn't have children.

Well, I had to prove that the children were in school with my homeschool records. I am a member of HSLDA and they did help me on the phone to maintain my legal rights during the interview. And my doctor called to schedule a procedure related to endometrosis, so the social worker got to hear that I wasn't making that up either.

 

I was not further investigated or charged.

The social worker was quick to realize the charges were bullsh** based and in her words "these children are fine, and so are you. I need to get back to the real problems out there. I had to remove children this week. You're not one of those kinds."

 

So there are times where people abuse the social services system in order to take revenge.

and yes, because I had to prove the children were legally being schooled, HSLDA had no problem helping me on the phone. No further action was really needed. I didn't have to go to court so I don't know they would have done.

 

I know you don't know me in real life, but it happened to me and it was nice to know ahead of time what I did have to do, and what I didn't have to do. Yes, the social worker claimed she had a right to search my house without probable cause just because of the badge she was wearing. I told her no, you have to have probable cause, but I would like to invite you into the house and let's get this interview done in front of another witness (my husband who was not accused!).

 

Do I agree with hslda's stance on all things? No. Do I think some of it has nothing to do with homeschoolers... of course.

 

-crystal

[Mary in VA]

This is a topic that usually gets OTT political quite quickly. This website may help to answer some of your questions. http://hsislegal.com/

 

I haven't read all the posts and I don't want to get in a debate about HSLDA, but I would take this web site with a LARGE grain of salt. Right off the bat it states, "Their (HSLDA's) vision of home education is very State controlled and regulated. Many families cannot comply with the laws HSLDA helps to pass."

(For some reason I can't turn off the bolding) HSLDA wants as little state control as possible. They believe the less state control the better.

 

Mary

[dirty ethel rackham]

I haven't read all the posts and I don't want to get in a debate about HSLDA, but I would take this web site with a LARGE grain of salt. Right off the bat it states, "Their (HSLDA's) vision of home education is very State controlled and regulated. Many families cannot comply with the laws HSLDA helps to pass."

(For some reason I can't turn off the bolding) HSLDA wants as little state control as possible. They believe the less state control the better.

 

Mary

 

Actions speak louder than words. They may say they want less state control, but their political activism in some states belies that notion.

[Mrs Mungo]

I found the above very interesting. I had never heard of it from that side - I must admit, some of the people I know had posted things about the CRC and the proposed amendment and the way that everything pro-amendment makes things sound, it seemed completely logical - the UN would have this CRC which would supersede the rights of parents/state laws/etc, so we needed the amendment so that it couldn't do that. So that isn't what it is?

 

Look up Reid versus Covert.

[Murphy101]

http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/264/parental-rights.html

 

I agree. I don't think the US should sign the UN right of the child either. (Mostly bc I think the UN is an impotent intrusive beaucratic mess. But THAT is a whole other messy topic. LOL)

 

I don't think you understand what I am saying. The other thread offers specific examples of hslda going into a situation and *taking over* the discussion with legisilators which means only *one* voice of homeschooling is heard by those who govern. It isn't about wishing, it is about their *actions*.

 

Actions speak louder than words. They may say they want less state control, but their political activism in some states belies that notion.

 

This. HSLDA presents themselves as speaking for ALL home schoolers and they have such a strong arm or heavy fist, that the fact that they do NOT speak for all home schoolers is often completely missed and thus sadly many voices, some of which might actually be more pro home schooling than HSLDA, are not able to be heard over HSLDA.

[pageta]

Actions speak louder than words. They may say they want less state control, but their political activism in some states belies that notion.

 

In my experience, they want less state control and less oversight of homeschooling. I have yet to see them working for stricter requirements for homeschoolers. When they do argue for more legislation, it is in order to protect rights so that it is less likely that legislation requiring more oversight will be passed. Case in point - the Parental Rights amendment.

[Wheres Toto]

They were working in NJ on more narrowly defining what counted as homeschooling. They were not successful. Right now in NJ we have to do nothing - no reporting, no notification, no testing, nothing. If a truancy charge comes up, the parent sends a letter saying they are homeschooling and the burden of proof then lies with the state to prove they aren't.

 

Can't get the state much more out of it than that so we certainly didn't need them fighting for more legislation.

[Murphy101]

They were working in NJ on more narrowly defining what counted as homeschooling. They were not successful. Right now in NJ we have to do nothing - no reporting, no notification, no testing, nothing. If a truancy charge comes up, the parent sends a letter saying they are homeschooling and the burden of proof then lies with the state to prove they aren't.

 

Can't get the state much more out of it than that so we certainly didn't need them fighting for more legislation.

 

Oklahoma is very similar and quite frankly I wish HSLDA would stay the heck out of our state before they screw it up!:glare:

 

ETA: Oklahoma is unique in that home schooling is actually part of our state constitution rights, so HSLDA is double not needed here for the most part imnsho.

[Mrs Mungo]

In my experience, they want less state control and less oversight of homeschooling. I have yet to see them working for stricter requirements for homeschoolers.

 

Another thread was linked with specific examples.

 

When they do argue for more legislation, it is in order to protect rights so that it is less likely that legislation requiring more oversight will be passed. Case in point - the Parental Rights amendment.

 

No, it is not needed. Parents already have rights, this amendment is not needed. Even where the UN is concerned, again, look up Reid versus Covert. Do you realize that Michael Farris is the *president* of parentalrights.org? That he is making money off of this as a lobbying arm? It isn't about rights, it is about *money* for lobbying, for politics, and for a back door voucher system.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Michigan

New Hampshire

North Carolina

and many more.

[pageta]

So if you needed a lawyer, before you used that specific lawyer, would you review every case that lawyer had ever taken on to see if you agreed with how the lawyer handled it? Or would you go with what you generally know about that lawyer and if it is generally in line with how you see things, you would hire that person?

 

HSLDA is practical for my purposes. They haven't done anything in my state that I disagree with. I am not familiar enough with other states laws in order to make a judgment call on whether or not HSLDA is lobbying for (or how they are doing it) is what I would want. I doubt that I would agree with how they handled every single case that has ever come across their desk. But in general, what I've heard about them regarding situations I was familiar does not alarm me.

 

We had a trial membership and got on their mailing list that way and were on it for a year before we actually purchased a real membership due to a rogue family member and wanting to have a bit of a safety net in place. I read each of their emails and haven't had a problem with anything I've seen, though I certainly understand there are homeschoolers who would. I also somehow got subscribed to move-on.org and get their emails and read many of them and very much disagree with the garbage they spew (I probably stay subscribed more for entertainment than anything) so it's not like I just agree with whatever I read in an email.

 

I don't expect to agree EXACTLY with how HSLDA has handled some specific cases any more than I expect to agree EXACTLY with anyone I vote for (president, senator, etc.). They generally fit my viewpoint, and at the same time, if they did something I didn't like in my state, they would certainly hear from me about it.

 

Just because I don't agree EXACTLY with everything someone thinks (such as someone here on this board) doesn't mean I think they are the devil. If I were in IL or OK, I might not agree with what was going on either. But I am in NE, and I have read their commentary on the bills that have come up here and have not had a problem with their viewpoints or actions they have taken on those issues (and there have been bills every year that I have been a homeschooler). If I lived in a different state, I might seek different legal counsel (such as others mentioned in this thread) if I didn't agree with actions they had taken in my state.

 

I had a bad experience at Starbucks recently, but that doesn't mean I don't buy drinks there any more and that I tell everyone to absolutely not go there. Starbucks serves a purpose. I would really like it if they would offer salt to go on their otherwise Perfect Oatmeal, and that they would teach their asst managers not to lecture customers when they ask for something simple like salt for their oatmeal. But I still go to Starbucks and enjoy some of the other things they offer.

 

I guess my thing with this whole thread is that I don't mind people voicing opinions against something. But in this thread and the other one linked, people seem to spew venom that would make you think HSLDA = The Devil and I don't find that to be the case. I am simply trying to offer an alternate point of view, which I saw a few times in the other thread but seemed to get lost amongst all the shouting and ranting going on.

[Mrs Mungo]

If you don't want to be educated about them beyond their own claims, then that's fine for you. Just don't expect everyone else to go along with it. Disagree with them and explaining why is NOT the same as shouting, screaming and/or saying they are the devil.

[pageta]

If you don't want to be educated about them beyond their own claims, then that's fine for you. Just don't expect everyone else to go along with it. Disagree with them and explaining why is NOT the same as shouting, screaming and/or saying they are the devil.

 

The main basis of my opinion is reading the laws being proposed in my state and their commentary on those laws, and I haven't disagreed with anything they've said. I see the weekly emails as PR - I take them with a grain of salt because I am not intimately familiar with the areas where those cases occur. I do note the types of cases they discuss in those emails as it gives insight into the types of issues they like to address. So no, I'm not just buying into their PR.

[Mrs Mungo]

The main basis of my opinion is reading the laws being proposed in my state and their commentary on those laws, and I haven't disagreed with anything they've said. I see the weekly emails as PR - I take them with a grain of salt because I am not intimately familiar with the areas where those cases occur. I do note the types of cases they discuss in those emails as it gives insight into the types of issues they like to address. So no, I'm not just buying into their PR.

 

I'm sorry, I still don't see where you are reading other sources? How are you *not* just buying into their PR?

[mo2]

This thread (and all the links) have been very educational. Thank you. HSLDA is not the organization for me.

[pageta]

I'm sorry, I still don't see where you are reading other sources? How are you *not* just buying into their PR?

 

They quote the law being proposed (which I can find online myself) and then they state their opinion and action taken on the matter. Then I agree or disagree. This is the main basis on which my opinion is formed.

 

The emails I said I don't take very seriously because they are clearly PR, but I do note the types of cases they talk about. Do they talk about defending unschoolers or not? Do they talk about custody cases or not? If so, what types of these cases do they take on?

 

I don't just do random internet searches and believe whatever I find about HSLDA. We all know how reliable the internet can be if you don't pay attention to your sources. I try to base my opinion on first-hand information rather than internet gossip.

[Mrs Mungo]

They quote the law being proposed (which I can find online myself) and then they state their opinion and action taken on the matter. Then I agree or disagree. This is the main basis on which my opinion is formed.

 

You aren't interested in learning why some people might oppose this or that legislation? I don't see how you can listen to one side of an argument and declare yourself informed.

 

I don't just do random internet searches and believe whatever I find about HSLDA. We all know how reliable the internet can be if you don't pay attention to your sources. I try to base my opinion on first-hand information rather than internet gossip.

 

Nobody suggested that you should do a random internet search *or* believe everything that all random people claim. But, you aren't even interested in other reliable sources. So, this is a completely fruitless argument.

[pageta]

You aren't interested in learning why some people might oppose this or that legislation? I don't see how you can listen to one side of an argument and declare yourself informed.

 

I've read this thread the the one cited earlier in this thread as well as the links given in that thread. I've also read other threads here and there about HSLDA on these forums, and my general impression of the discussions on these forums is that they are very one-sided against HSLDA. In the thread cited in this thread, I would say it was at least 9-to-1 against HSLDA.

 

In fact, some of the statements against HSLDA in this thread came from the same people who use the term homophobic to describe anyone who doesn't think homosexuals are natural and normal. I may disagree with that type of lifestyle, but I have more than one close friend who is gay/lesbian. If I were truly "homophobic," I would think I wouldn't be able to talk to such people, much less be good friends with them. Quite frankly, if the type of people who are strongly anti-HSLDA also think 53% of the population is "homophobic," I figure I am probably someone who might actually like HSLDA and support the work they do.

[Mrs Mungo]

I've read this thread the the one cited earlier in this thread as well as the links given in that thread. I've also read other threads here and there about HSLDA on these forums, and my general impression of the discussions on these forums is that they are very one-sided against HSLDA. In the thread cited in this thread, I would say it was at least 9-to-1 against HSLDA

 

The posts were 9-to-1 against or the posters? These are different things.

 

In fact, some of the statements against HSLDA in this thread came from the same people who use the term homophobic to describe anyone who doesn't think homosexuals are natural and normal. I may disagree with that type of lifestyle, but I have more than one close friend who is gay/lesbian. If I were truly "homophobic," I would think I wouldn't be able to talk to such people, much less be good friends with them. Quite frankly, if the type of people who are strongly anti-HSLDA also think 53% of the population is "homophobic," I figure I am probably someone who might actually like HSLDA and support the work they do.

 

LOTS of the posters who are anti-hslda actually agree with their stance on homosexuality.

[Wheres Toto]

They quote the law being proposed (which I can find online myself) and then they state their opinion and action taken on the matter. Then I agree or disagree. This is the main basis on which my opinion is formed.

 

The emails I said I don't take very seriously because they are clearly PR, but I do note the types of cases they talk about. Do they talk about defending unschoolers or not? Do they talk about custody cases or not? If so, what types of these cases do they take on?

 

I don't just do random internet searches and believe whatever I find about HSLDA. We all know how reliable the internet can be if you don't pay attention to your sources. I try to base my opinion on first-hand information rather than internet gossip.

 

I'm curious if you search other sources to get confirmation of the content of their emails? I've seen a lot of their email "warnings" and a quick check of what's really happening shows that they are exaggerating the truth of what is really going on (or outright lying) to scare people into supporting their interference.

 

This board is full of well educated people who thoroughly research issues around many topics but especially education and homeschooling. Doesn't the fact that these well educated, well informed people are so against HSLDA give you a little bit of a clue that their might be more to them than their emails indicate?

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Oklahoma is very similar and quite frankly I wish HSLDA would stay the heck out of our state before they screw it up!:glare:

 

ETA: Oklahoma is unique in that home schooling is actually part of our state constitution rights, so HSLDA is double not needed here for the most part imnsho.

 

 

:lol: Ohyeah, well you are DOUBLE NOT NEEDED!! :tongue_smilie:

[Murphy101]

:lol: Ohyeah, well you are DOUBLE NOT NEEDED!! :tongue_smilie:

 

Okay. I confess I am around children under 10 for a large part of my days.:p

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Okay. I confess I am around children under 10 for a large part of my days.:p

 

 

I was just thinking that it could become 'THE' new insult. :001_smile:

 

"Mo-o-o-m! he said that I was double not needed!" ;)

[Audrey]

This thread (and all the links) have been very educational. Thank you. HSLDA is not the organization for me.

 

 

I'm glad you were edified by the discussion.

[Murphy101]

I was just thinking that it could become 'THE' new insult. :001_smile:

 

"Mo-o-o-m! he said that I was double not needed!" ;)

 

Beats the argument in the van all the way to the library today.

 

"Mommmmm! He wiped invisible dinosaur boogers on me!"

 

"Uh-Uh! She lies! I only SAID I would if she wouldn't stop bringing her girl stink around me!"

 

"I do not stink! I am smart and gorbigous!"

(gorgeous has too many Gs for her 2 year old self)

 

"Yeah, well you still smell like a girl to me."

 

"Mommm....."

 

And the radio gets a little louder.... "Come on kids! It's depeche mode! Don't make me put in that Adele cd again!"

[ThatCyndiGirl]

OMW! Adele CD!! My two youngest LOVE LOVE LOVE the song, "Wollin' in duh Deep" as my youngest calls it. She wants to hear it over and over and over and over and over again. :001_huh:

 

I love Adele, but c'mon!!