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5th grader not ready for logic stage?


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I have a 10 year old 5th grader...

 

We just started Elemental Science for the logic stage, biology....while he can do the reading assignments..i am not sure how much he takes in..he tends to just jump over words he does not know....answering the suggested discussion questions was difficult...and making a 1 level outline was a lesson I frustration...I had to lead him in each step....it was more ME completing the assignment than him...

 

We are doing WWE level 3.... Having not used WWE consistently before....

 

 

So..does anyone have a child who should be ready for the logic stage..but struggled? Should I have him do biology for the grammar stage? Modify the logic stage...? Move back to the grammar stage and add in some narrations or summaries?

 

Or perhaps use ClasiQuest Biology instead? There seems to be less on each page instruction wise...which is part of his problem too....

Edited by ChantyD3
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I would keep him in the logic stage and use it as an opportunity to work on his skills.

 

I have a 10 year old 5th grader...

 

We just started Elemental Science for the logic stage, biology....while he can do the reading assignments..i am not sure how much he takes in..he tends to just jump over words he does not know....

 

While skipping words is common for grammar stage, I would take this as an opportunity to learn vocabulary building skills. Have him make a list of the words from the reading assignments that he doesn't know and look up the definitions. Then have him reread the assignment so he can more fully understand it.

 

answering the suggested discussion questions was difficult...

 

Working on the vocabulary will help with this. I also let my 5th grader read back through her science material to find the answer if she does not know it because I think the ability to find an answer within a given text is another important skill for learning. If she can't find it (usually because the wording is different), I show her which paragraph the answer is in. I will explain the paragraph to her if necessary to help her figure out the answer if she still finds it confusing. (The last doesn't happen often but I figure I'm the teacher and explaining what the text is trying to say is ultimately my job.)

 

and making a 1 level outline was a lesson I frustration...I had to lead him in each step....it was more ME completing the assignment than him...

 

If you're just starting outlines, leading him through the steps is common. I had to help both DDs with their first several outlines in 5th before they began to catch on and were willing to try on their own.

 

We are doing WWE level 3.... Having not used WWE consistently before....

 

 

So..does anyone have a child who should be ready for the logic stage..but struggled? Should I have him do biology for the grammar stage? Modify the logic stage...? Move back to the grammar stage and add in some narrations or summaries?

 

All this to say, that starting into the logic stage requires a lot of help from you at the start as your DC adjusts to the difference in expectations and learns new skills to help him understand the material. When my oldest hit 5th, I was taken off guard because she had worked so well independently in 4th and suddenly I was having to spend more time with her one on one. We adjusted. She learned and is once again working with greater independence. HTH

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Take courage! Moving from one stage to another is NOT like turning on a light switch. It does NOT happen just because the student is now labeled "5th grade" and the Logic Stage is labeled "grades 5-8". More realistically, students develop into the Logic Stage over several years -- which for some students (a rare few) may start somewhere in grade 4, and for others (much more commonly) not EVEN start until grade 7 or 8!

 

Picture the process more like being on a road trip; for a long time the landscape all looks the same; then a little at a time you begin to notice different plants or types of rocks here and there; and eventually, after a long while, you realize you are in a completely new landscape -- but there was time and a lot of overlap involved in the transition from the old to the new. On your educational journey you'll find your student begins to make a connection with something you've previously seen or done, or wonders about the WHY of something, or begins to see "cause and effect" connections, uses more arguments in discussion, etc. Slowly, you see the change in thinking in not just one school subject area but in others as well.

 

And at some point -- late middle school or into the high school years -- you find you are having really interesting and fun discussions with your student! And here again, is where it's a really good idea to think of the transition into the Logic stage like a road trip -- you're going to have a LOT more fun on the journey with your co-traveler if you just sit back and enjoy the view you have right now, than getting impatient that the view out the window isn't the one you WANT to be seeing RIGHT NOW! :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I have a 10 year old 5th grader... and making a 1 level outline was a lesson in frustration; I had to lead him in each step; it was more ME completing the assignment than him...

 

 

Yep. This is absolutely normal. :) As with learning ANY new technique or skill, it will take a lot of time, guidance and practice for your student to develop this area. Yes, this is very typical at the beginning of the Logic stage -- you start by MODELING for him the process that *eventually* he will be able to do on his own.

 

- Will he be able to do it the first time around?

Obviously, NO student would.

 

- How about the second time?

Maybe -- but only if he is one of the 1 or 2 students who mentally have already moved well into the Logic stage AND naturally connect with this type of thinking and working (a formal outline is a VERY left-brain type of activity).

 

- How about in a month of doing outlines once a week?

Maybe. But I'd guess we're still at the "small end" of the "bell curve" of students transitioning into the Logic stage.

 

- How about at the end of doing an outline a week for a semester? Mmmm... I'd bet we're at the mid-point of the "bell curve". What if your DS may be one of those who happens to fall more on the far-right side of the bell curve? Apply a little more patience, and just continue to gently and diligently persevere...

 

 

We are doing WWE level 3, having not used WWE consistently before... Should I have him do biology for the grammar stage? Modify the logic stage? Move back to the grammar stage and add in some narrations or summaries? Or perhaps use ClasiQuest Biology instead? There seems to be less on each page instruction wise (which is part of his problem too)

 

 

My suggestion, and I mean this *very gently*, is to let go of trying to hold so tightly to the Logic stage list, or feel that everything must match up to the Logic stage, and if it doesn't, that must mean dropping back to the Grammar stage. TRUST yourself and your intimate understanding of your son. Teach to his needs, not to a list. Also, it is really hard on students to switch curriculum -- it usually takes 1-2 months of regular use to get into the mindset and flow of a new program -- so if you feel that he doesn't hate the Elemental Science and IS able to learn from it, stick with it -- BUT, modify it. Narrow Gate Academy in her post above gave GREAT ideas. Here are a few more:

 

- read Elemental Science *aloud together* -- or you read to him (some students are very auditory and take in information better if they hear it read or in a lecture)

 

- *discuss* it AS you read -- encourage him to ask questions or make comments; YOU ask a question -- not just for comprehension, but to see if either of you can come up with how the concept might apply to real life, or to a Mythbusters episode -- or how you could devise a test to prove the concept, etc. (THAT will also help develop Logic stage thinking -- question asking and experimentation; making connections with things you've previously read or seen; etc.)

 

- together as you read, have him draw the process or concept on a whiteboard, or jot what seem to be key words or processes down on a whiteboard -- some of those might be the very thing that be key to remember and for writing an outline (again, these activities, done naturally in the course of reading/discussing, help develop annotating, outlining and thinking skills -- not to mention helping set the stage for later good study habits, or "making what you read yours" by doing something with it!)

 

- OR, if he is the type who does NOT like to hear it aloud read by you, then you go over the section covered in advance; prepare some questions and comments; as soon as he finishes reading, flip through and point to illustrations; ask him open-ended questions; ask him to describe or explain a process to you -- to teach you; make those comments that connect with other things you and he have read, seen or experienced; have him use the whiteboard (as above)...

 

 

Hugs and encouragement as you begin to enter a new Stage of your homeschooling journey -- ENJOY the ride together! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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I have a dd11 who we are still "transitioning" into the logic stage and a dd15 that is still "transitioning" into rhetoric.

 

The ladies above made great comments. I just wanted to reassure you that you are not alone and that it is not an all or nothing step from one level to the next.

 

I look at each skill and decide where we need to be with each student. Some of the things they are doing may be considered a grammer stage skill, for example, and some may be logic. We just continue to build on one skill until we are ready for the next.

 

I know that one thing that can be frustrating is the feeling of being "behind". I found the WTM about a year or so ago I think. Plus, I didn't start homeschooling my eldest child until she was in mid 4th grade. So, at first I was a little overwhelmed. Now, I'm excited because we are making progress!

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Students reach the ability to make more mature connections at about age 12-14, imho. You can start teaching them the skills they will need in 5th, but they won't get there until they are physically ready.

 

It's good that lableing 5-8 gets people teaching them logic skills early, but it sets up unrealistic expectations, I feel.

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My second oldest, dd12, is just now starting to move into the logic stage. I have found myself needing to do a lot more explaining and a lot more leading questions to help guide her into a deeper understanding of some topics. She is still very much a literal, black and white thinker. The other day she had a question about a poem that she just completely didn't get. The poem, titled Beautiful, was about a poor girl (think The Little Princess) who, although had ragged clothes and shoes, was covered in grime, and didn't have any money, was always kind and generous, even giving the majority of her food away to those less fortunate than she was. The question was whether you thought the child was truly beautiful and asked for your to explain your answer. Dd's answer..."No, she isn't beautiful because she has old clothes, un-brushed hair and is dirty." I had to explain to her to look at the child's actions, her unselfish nature and her loving heart. Dd got this big OHHHHHHH! look on her face and said she didn't get what they were asking.

 

Of coarse, this just may be the way she is wired...literature is going to be interesting if this is the case.

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In our case, my dd11 is able to comprehend and discuss "logic stage" topics...it's the skill of getting it on paper.

 

So, I agree that all children develop these different skills at different ages.

 

Thank you to the OP for posting this! Just recently, I was feeling a little "bummed" because neither of my dds were completely working in "their stage" after reading all the posts of 11 year olds in ALL and WWS. But, I got a "grip" and reminded myself that I shouldn't compare my children to anyone else...we are where we are and we'll continue to work on one level at a time:001_smile:.

 

So, none of us are alone and our children really are OKAY...they are more than OKAY!:grouphug: A friend once told me that as a teacher you know you're doing a good job because of the fact that you even care that you're doing a good job. So, we're here seeking guidance...that says a lot!

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I just want to agree that there isn't a 'light switch' that goes on for logic stage. It is more a transition than a leap for most kids.

 

When we began outlining last year I sat with my son and we did it orally at first. I can say that for the first month or so I pretty much told him what to write but then he got it. Then it turned into a couple months of having him read a paragraph aloud and asking him 'what is the main point of that paragraph" again and again and again.

 

Finally, he started telling me to back off, that he could do it himself. He could and it was fine.

 

He is doing two point outlines now and the process has been much, much easier this year.

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When we began outlining last year I sat with my son and we did it orally at first. I can say that for the first month or so I pretty much told him what to write but then he got it.

 

That is how i felt on Thursday..

 

thanks everyone.. we will keep plugging forward and I'll try not to panic as much.. I always feel "behind" when it comes to the WTM stages.. and reading what others are doing on here usually makes me feel worse.. that I'm not working them hard enough.. that we are not studying 3 foreign languages, reciting poetry from Greek sources and building a pyramid out back out of snow blockes :tongue_smilie: :lol::lol: (seriously over generalizing to make myself looks silly here)

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That is how i felt on Thursday..

 

thanks everyone.. we will keep plugging forward and I'll try not to panic as much.. I always feel "behind" when it comes to the WTM stages.. and reading what others are doing on here usually makes me feel worse.. that I'm not working them hard enough.. that we are not studying 3 foreign languages, reciting poetry from Greek sources and building a pyramid out back out of snow blockes :tongue_smilie: :lol::lol: (seriously over generalizing to make myself looks silly here)

 

:lol::lol::lol: Oh I can so relate! I'm glad you feel better!

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it doesn't help that every week at ballet, there is a mother (who home schools but it is Distance Learning and she says all she does is sit there with her DD) who goes ON and ON about how she does not believe in homeschooling, cannot wait until they can afford private school, how all homeschooling people are quacks and there kids are not learning ANYTHING and how they are at school from 7 am to 5 pm 5 days a week...

 

 

so I usually feel very inadequate after ballet days....

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Well, I work really hard at reminding myself and the kids that we cannot compare ourselves to others because we will always come up short.

 

When I'm around someone that attempts to make me feel that way I just change the conversation. Even at church other parents, one in particular, will come up and ask my oldest how her school is going but it isn't in a way of curiosity or conversation. Instead it is more out of concern because she wonders if she is getting enough of an education. I happen to know, however, that she had to decide between public school and private/homeschool. They chose public school. So, I think sometimes others try to justify their choices by belittling ours.

 

Keep the faith...and the midnight oil burning if you're like me:D...and send a pm if you ever need encouragement!

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