What is the point of having a "No Pets" policy when

[Julie Smith]

I'm extraordinarily biased on this, as we have a REGISTERED guide dog for my son. There's the big difference. Registered. Canada (and other countries) require certification from a governing body (Assistance Dogs International) whose mission is to "Establish and promote standards of excellence in all areas of Assistance Dog acquisition, training and partnership". This is our second registered guide dog. Both required extensive training and then the family received extensive training. It is a sad fact that the U.S. is a laughing stock in service animal circles. They truly are. There are no governing rules so anyone can "train" any animal any time and call it a service animal. Without some form of standard, they really make the rest of us look bad. :glare: Oh well. That man (and MANY others) would have a very rude awakening if they ever visited Canada!

As for where they are allowed: anywhere the public goes. This does exclude private property, private (golf) clubs, private beaches, and churches. In those cases, we must get permission from the person responsible for the premises. We've never had anyone say no, but we do not take the dog to other people's homes.

 

ETA: if you'd like to see pics of my boy with each of his guide dogs, you can see them in pics that are on my profile. They're very cute!

 

Thank you for that post.

I never really thought about service dogs.

[ravinlunachick]

Why don't you send an e-mail to the Dept of Health and see if you get a response? If they agree that it's an issue (and I'd certainly have problems with it), then you could put them in touch with that manager and perhaps get the law applied appropriately.

 

I'm another who really dislikes seeing critters in public places except for genuine assistance critters. And I live on a farm. I'm not anti-animal in general nor anti-germs. I do believe in common courtesy and I know many people have allergies. Pets have their places, but there are some non-pet places IMO.

 

My husband posted about this on facebook, and friend of his who manages a local restaurant told him to do exactly that. He said they had a problem with it a while back (someone trying to insist their pet was a service animal and feeding it at the table), and he called the Dept. of Health right away. They sent out an inspector to "clarify the rules". The inspector was adamant that service animals are not to be fed in public, and that any restaurant who does so risks losing their food service license.

[ravinlunachick]

 

So funny in light of how many nursing women are harassed at stores. Dogs @sses on tables apparently less offensive than babies eating????

 

I told my dh the same thing. That's what finally spurred me on to go speak with the manager.

[zimom]

My daughter has a service dog. She is actually called a 'skilled companion dog' in that we are part of a team, my daughter, myself and her dog. My daughter, due to her young age, is not allowed to 'control' her dog in public without me there. Here in the US, the law was recently changed that only DOGS can now be service animals, putting the end to folks trying to claim their snakes, turtles, parrots, etc are service animals.

 

Legally, no, individuals do not have to have a vest or ID for their service dogs but our daughter's dog was trained at a very respected organization who requires a vest, identification, and retesting, recertification every year. Their standards are very high.

 

Additionally, legally in the US, stores, hotels, etc. can only ask an individual 'what tasks does your service dog do for you?" or something along that line... so in the OP instance, the manager should have asked the gentleman what the dogs provided for him. I could be wrong but I think they both need to provide something different. If the dogs are disruptive, which they clearly were, they can ask them to leave. Our dog is not allowed to eat off the floor (and certainly not the table!) in public places, and if she does she is reprimanded.

 

"Fake" service dogs are a problem. There are many more of them then real ones making it harder for us. One of the main 'tasks' my daughter's dog is to help break down barriers for her, to be a social bridge, and it drives me crazy when I start getting flack from the Costco 'doorkeeper' because of the ten untrained dogs that came before me.

[Tammyla]

The manager should have intervened; that is pretty disgusting.

 

people just feel free to call them "service animals?" Then you're stuck, because under the Americans With Disabilities Act, you can't ask for proof of anything.

 

We were eating lunch at Costco today when a man in an electric scooter zoomed up to the tables with two shih-tzus on his lap. He proceeded to put them on the table and feed them a hot dog! :ack2: I found it absolutely repulsive, and went over to complain to a manager. I was told that there is nothing they could do; the man claimed they were service animals (I seriously doubt that, btw) and therefore they had to allow them wherever he wanted them to go. I stressed to the manager that I was really sickened by the thought that my children might be eating off a table where a dog's behind had been, and all he could say was, "I can assure you we'll clean everywhere the dogs have been."

 

Gross. I think it will be a while before I'm willing to eat there again. Somehow I'm not sure that in all the hustle and bustle of the crowded store, someone was going to come immediately over to disinfect the tables. I know there are various breeds of dogs who work as service animals, and that not everyone has a visible disability. Heck, we're even thinking of getting on a waiting list for a service dog for my autistic son, but I think it is outrageous that people should be allowed to bring animals wherever they choose with no proof that they are more than just pets. You can also rest assured that NO dog of mine, service animal or otherwise, will ever rest a behind on a table where people eat!

 

Blech.

 

I have a friend who decided her dog is a service pet and takes her everywhere; she will berate and threaten to sue anyone who questions her not so trained dog. Friend claims her pet calms her and that = a service dog. She purchased the vest online.

 

I believe there should be some accountability and basic requirements of assistance animals.

 

Our neighbor has an assistance lab, who is an amazing blessing to her ds. He's super trained and I'm so glad they have him.

[creekland]

My husband posted about this on facebook, and friend of his who manages a local restaurant told him to do exactly that. He said they had a problem with it a while back (someone trying to insist their pet was a service animal and feeding it at the table), and he called the Dept. of Health right away. They sent out an inspector to "clarify the rules". The inspector was adamant that service animals are not to be fed in public, and that any restaurant who does so risks losing their food service license.

 

Thank you for that update/clarification. I had a suspicion that dogs on the table was a big no-no (understandably). If I ever see something like that in public, I'm one who will say something and/or contact the necessary authorities, but it certainly helps to be knowledgeable about the actual law first instead of just an educated guess.

 

I fully agree with pulling restaurant or food service licenses of places that allow such a thing, but education to "fix it" is better.

[Supertechmom]

think the problem in the OP isnt assistance dogs or even pets.

 

Its a manager who couldn't be bothered to do his job and confront an unruly and inappropriate patron.

 

So funny in light of how many nursing women are harassed at stores. Dogs @sses on tables apparently less offensive than babies eating????

 

 

 

I have been asked multiple times in different fast food restaurants to REMOVE my baby from the counter because the diaper inside their pants coming into contact with the surface is unsanitary and health violation. They always tell me NO remove the baby that isn't sanitary. I've also seen them ask people to remove the babies from the table. People tend to plop them on the table to put shoes on and such before leaving (play lands you take off shoes here). If my baby fully clothed with a diaper is a health violation, a bare butt dog most certainly is.

[Slartibartfast]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/fashion/sundaystyles/14PETS.html?pagewanted=all

 

"These days people rely on a veritable Noah's Ark of support animals. Tami McLallen, a spokeswoman for American Airlines, said that although dogs are the most common service animals taken onto planes, the airline has had to accommodate monkeys, miniature horses, cats and even an emotional support duck. 'Its owner dressed it up in clothes,' she recalled.

 

There have also been at least two instances (on American and Delta) in which airlines have been presented with emotional support goats."

 

:blink: :lol:

 

Ok there needs to be a line somewhere, I have a rather serious allergy to horses, I could not actually sit on a plane with a horse. Bird allergies are often serious. That is just endangering people who could not possibly anticipate such an animal on a plane.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Sis

[QuirkyKapers]

I didn't read all the responses, but I would think about seeing who you could talk to that is in charge of that store. It is one thing to have a service dog but to sit it on the table and feed it- Ack

[myfunnybunch]

Ew.

 

FWIW, a Shih-Tzu would make an excellent support dog for some people. I'd be careful about assuming that a particular breed of dog cannot be a service animal. My dd's Shih-Tzu is sitting under the table right now and I can't hear her breathing. :) She's calm, sweet, smart and quiet. She'd be a great lap or leash dog for someone with anxiety, and she'd be an excellent companion in public places. Some people need service dogs for extreme anxiety, seizure detection, etc. for which a smaller breed might be particularly suited.

 

That said, it is disgusting that the man put his dogs on the table, period, even if they are service dogs. Sitting on the table to be fed a hot dog does not fall under a service dog's job, whatever that job might be. Ick. It sounds like the manager is not clear on regulations about service animals. The manager may have to allow service dogs in the store, but he certainly has the right to request that the dogs remain off the tables and not be fed and that they behave themselves. The dogs may be allowed to accompany their owner wherever he goes, but they (and he) certainly do not have the right to do whatever they want to do.

 

Gross.

 

Cat

[TranquilMind]

This is something that irritates me to no end. I see dogs EVERYWHERE--restaurants, grocery stores, dept stores. On leashes, in strollers, in the child seat of a shopping cart, tucked into their owner's purses. I was in Wal-Mart one day, and a lady with the dog about the size of a Jack Russell got in line behind me. It was on a leash, but she allowed it to jump at, and nearly knock over, my 2 yo daughter. When I questioned the appropriateness of her having it in the store and pointed out that service animals should be well-trained, she FREAKED out on me, and actually followed me out of the store screaming at me.

 

I agree that something needs to change. I think that service animals should be (a) trained WELL, (b) registered and licensed, and © that management should be able to ask for proof of the animal's registration as a service animal.

SERVICE animals are trained well. This woman had a pet. A service animal won't really even notice you when it is working. A real Service animal, that is. They are well trained for many months.

 

These people sneaking their pets, er "Companion animals" everywhere just need to stuff it.

[TranquilMind]

There is no national certification in the US for service animals, and this is not the fault of those of us who have them. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

I spent an inordinate sum of money to have my dog, who is able to detect seizures by sheer genetics, trained to be my service animal. She can detect my seizures, your seizures - she isn't particular -- like I said, it's a genetic gift.

 

She can lead me home after a seizure even if I am in a complete fugue. She will pull me to the ground to prevent me from falling prior to a seizure. She will lay across my body and prevent anyone but uniformed personnel from touching me.

 

And when I'm not in a "bad" period? You'd just think she was the most well trained family dog you ever saw -- wearing a vest.

 

That said -- by the ADAs rules, yes, you CAN ask if she is a service dog. What you CAN'T ask is what she is a service dog FOR. Finally, the biggest key is this:

 

Q: What is a service animal?

 

A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government.

 

An animal is not a service animal if they are not TRAINED. Service animals do not jump up on people. They don't bark at people. They don't pee in stores. They sure as sh!t don't sit on tables. They are trained to do a job and otherwise remain all but invisible (or, in Asta's case - horribly cute).

 

Service animals don't have to be leashed to not run into traffic / eat someone else's food / do something stupid.

 

Where I currently live? She is not even considered a service dog. Why? Because the country only recognizes seeing eye dogs. Period. They don't even recognize dogs for the deaf. It is a dog friendly place, and I can take her many places - even restaurants, but certainly not groceries, movies, etc. I have had to curtail my activities due to this.

 

I understand people getting upset over this issue, and that table thing was disgusting, but try and remember that the majority of disabilities are invisible. You will be seeing more and more service dogs in the coming years with war veterans as the VA has found them to be invaluable for brain injuries and PTSD. It is going to take a systemic shift in the population's attitude towards 'hidden' disabilities.

 

I would guess, however, that as these other folk enter into society with 'real' disabilities, and carrying designer dogs in purses goes out of style, one won't be having as many problems with Fifi in Walmart.

 

 

a

 

P.s. Many people "get around" the ADA question with me by asking "oh - are you training her to be a service dog?" And then the inevitable "what is her specialty?" I don't have to answer, but I always do. I think I refused once, when the guy was being a jerk.

While you cannot ask what the disability is, under the ADA, you most definitely CAN ask what the animal is trained to do. Refusal to answer permits the establishment to bar the animal.

 

See here.

 

The DOJ Business Brief and DOJ Guidance clarify that entities may inquire whether an animal is a service animal and may also ask what tasks the animal has been trained to perform. However, entities may not ask specific questions about the person’s disability.

[TranquilMind]

The manager should have intervened; that is pretty disgusting.

 

 

 

I have a friend who decided her dog is a service pet and takes her everywhere; she will berate and threaten to sue anyone who questions her not so trained dog. Friend claims her pet calms her and that = a service dog. She purchased the vest online.

 

I believe there should be some accountability and basic requirements of assistance animals.

 

Our neighbor has an assistance lab, who is an amazing blessing to her ds. He's super trained and I'm so glad they have him.

This friend is wrong, under the ADA. She most certainly CAN be barred anywhere for refusing to answer regarding what tasks her "service animal" is trained to do. Service animals are highly trained and clearly distinguishable from companion animals and/or pets. Even if hers was actually a companion animal, she does indeed need to answer questions regarding its tasks to the satisfaction of the doorkeeper.

 

People are afraid to push it and all kinds of pets are getting in everywhere. This is a problem for people with allergies.

[Tammyla]

:iagree: She however, flies the friendly skies with her dog, takes her into hotel rooms, restaurants, shopping centers...you name it. (She is very outspoken and no one is willing to risk their job over it.) That is, unless she wants to do something without her service dog...then the dog stays home.

 

This friend is wrong, under the ADA. She most certainly CAN be barred anywhere for refusing to answer regarding what tasks her "service animal" is trained to do. Service animals are highly trained and clearly distinguishable from companion animals and/or pets. Even if hers was actually a companion animal, she does indeed need to answer questions regarding its tasks to the satisfaction of the doorkeeper.

 

People are afraid to push it and all kinds of pets are getting in everywhere. This is a problem for people with allergies.

[pfamilygal]

We had someone bring their half feral cat into the ER in a nasty, taped together pet carrier and try to claim it was a service animal.

 

We did not allow it in, as they could not tell us what service it provided. Other than screeching and clawing at the container.

[Mom in High Heels]

Eh. The manager probably should have asked him to not put the dogs on the table, but I have no problem with dogs (service or not) being in stores or restaurants.

It's probably from living in Germany for so long though. Dogs are welcome pretty much anywhere. It's not unusual to see 5 or 6 dogs in a restaurant (though not on the table) or a dozen of them at the mall. I've only ever seen 3 places that had "no dog" signs: IKEA, Aldi and Rewe (grocery store). They all provide a dog leash clip bar and bowls of water out front though.

[Joanne]

My DH has an ex gf who went to her Dr. and got a Dx for anxiety and the Dr. wrote a letter that had her foo-foo teacup breed designated as a service dog.

 

She takes the dog on airplanes, restaurants, shoping, work, etc.

 

I didn't like the ex before I heard that story, but that story didn't help. ;)

[Happy]

It would have probably been a problem for someone to change a baby on the table...especially without a changing mat.

 

One of the things I enjoyed about living in Europe was seeing dogs everywhere...in the grocery store, in restaurants...without fail, they were well behaved animals.

[Julie in CA]

Dogs aren't anymore disgusting than people.

Well, this is *sort of* true, except that the *bare backside* of any living creature doesn't really belong on a surface where food will be placed. You're right, a dog's anus isn't really more disgusting than a person's anus, still...I'd prefer that neither be sitting on my dining table. :glare:

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree:

 

I was just thinking this. Dogs aren't anymore disgusting than people. (And I don't like dogs.)

 

I love dogs. I really, really, really love my dogs but yes, they are more disgusting then people.

 

I do not go into the cat's litter box for snacks or consider chicken droppings a delicacy.

[Julie Smith]

Well, this is *sort of* true, except that the *bare backside* of any living creature doesn't really belong on a surface where food will be placed. You're right, a dog's anus isn't really more disgusting than a person's anus, still...I'd prefer that neither be sitting on my dining table. :glare:

 

I wipe. I know dogs that have long hair and have a dangling cling on. And even assuming I have a dangling cling on, it would be dangling in my underwear and not out in the open.

[Julie in CA]

I wipe. I know dogs that have long hair and have a dangling cling on. And even assuming I have a dangling cling on, it would be dangling in my underwear and not out in the open.

*Exactly.*

And as soon as they put undergarments & pants over the dog's backside, I'll be a *bit* less skeeved out about it being on a table where people eat.

[asta]

While you cannot ask what the disability is, under the ADA, you most definitely CAN ask what the animal is trained to do. Refusal to answer permits the establishment to bar the animal.

 

See here.

 

The DOJ Business Brief and DOJ Guidance clarify that entities may inquire whether an animal is a service animal and may also ask what tasks the animal has been trained to perform. However, entities may not ask specific questions about the person’s disability.

 

The humongous font wasn't necessary.

 

I said:

 

That said -- by the ADAs rules, yes, you CAN ask if she is a service dog. What you CAN'T ask is what she is a service dog FOR.

 

For. As in, what diagnosis I have that I would need a service animal for.

 

I didn't realize that wasn't clear.

 

 

asta

[LBS]

I still can't get beyond the health department code violation. Seems like that would be enough of an issue for the manager to have asked the guy to feed dogs elsewhere. Service dog or not.

[kalanamak]

There have also been at least two instances (on American and Delta) in which airlines have been presented with emotional support goats."

 

:blink: :lol:

 

I believe a local biker-type just got denied his service python in public places.

 

OTOH, my sister knew a very, very wealthy woman who put much time and effort into raising guide puppies just so she could always travel with a dog. That seems a little fairer.