S/O "Can you still be a Christian.."

[Aelwydd]

Ok, that other thread is so long, and taken so many twists, that it's easier to focus on my concerns here. Namely, it seems that there is some debate about whether the way some Christians express their anti-gay beliefs are hateful or not.

 

I understand that some folks just not going to ever agree with gay people having the same rights and civil liberties as straight people. I don't agree, but I do understand. However, I cannot understand how it is ever within the purview of anyone's Christianity to act or speak hatefully towards gay people.

 

Some people don't seem to grasp how their words are hateful when they talk about gay couples in their community. Today, I came across this blog post, and it encapsulates exactly, the kind of attitude that I just cannot reconcile with any kind of Christian, even the most fundamental or conservative type

 

To clarify, I don't think the majority of Christians, feel the same as this woman. Most here who have expressed a moral disagreement with homosexuality, still say, "but I'm a sinner, too, so I don't try to judge them."

 

But like Islamic terrorists have given that

religion an image problem, I think that Christians that express views such as in that woman's blog post are a detriment to the Christian faith.

 

Jesus would never use the language and express the same attitude she does toward gay people. Jesus gravitated towards the sinners and outcasts, didn't he? Shouldn't the average Christian, then, look to minister to gay people, if he or she believes them to be in sin? Rather than seek to ostracize them, penalize them, and consign them to the dark and invisible corners of society?

 

At least, that's what I think. Also, I think that overall, Christian pastors and ministers need to really emphasize the responsibility to love the sinner, not hate or despise. I fear that the contempt I see in this woman's post, is the type that can lead to real tragedy later on. Hate grows and multiplies, and can spawn some of the most horrific crimes, like what to Matt Shepherd.

 

I want to know what others think is the best way to address this kind of attitude in the churches. But, please, do not go to the blog and post or write mean things to her in response to her post. (I'm pretty sure she's closed off comments anyway, but the point of this post is to discuss it here, not send a bunch of enraged posters to her blog! Thanks!)

[Parrothead]

I'm with you. I can't reconcile that attitude either, and I am Catholic. The same as she.

 

I don't know.

 

I know what the church teaches and it is not hate.

 

Some people just have to be holier than thou. Myself included, just not in this area.

 

 

ETA: I "heard" a lot of fear in her post.

[Caitilin]

I'm with you. I can't reconcile that attitude either, and I am Catholic. The same as she.

 

I don't know.

 

I know what the church teaches and it is not hate.

 

Some people just have to be holier than thou. Myself included, just not in this area.

 

 

ETA: I "heard" a lot of fear in her post.

 

:iagree: with everything Chucki says (except that I am not RC). I really detest this "liberal/homosexual agenda" talk--as if there were some great monolith out there. To me, blog posts like this just make the poster look ridiculous.

[Aelwydd]

I'm with you. I can't reconcile that attitude either, and I am Catholic. The same as she.

 

I don't know.

 

I know what the church teaches and it is not hate.

 

Some people just have to be holier than thou. Myself included, just not in this area.

 

Yes, you may notice I never once referred to her as a Catholic. I know she self-identifies as such, but I have never known of the Church to espouse the kind of extreme views she seems to. The Church at least accepts that some people are just born gay. It doesn't approve of acting out on that orientation (a point where I sharply disagree with), but my goodness, none of the Catholic priests or Catholic friends I've known have ever talked like that woman does.

 

Her views are not rare though, and that's the problem. If I had to put a label on her, it'd be a type of cultural Christianity, that's mixed with extreme homophobia.

[UnsinkableKristen]

I think that some people just don't understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to live in a world where everyone agrees with you and acts accordingly.

 

They are making it so hard on themselves by constantly being on the lookout for "sinners" and staying away from them.

[justamouse]

How about saying, "That's just where she is right now." I say that a lot, about a lot of people, and I hope that people give me the same grace.

 

I have a gay couple who own a house two doors down. They are awesome. My kids play in their yard, they talk to them, we exchange Christmas cookies and hang over the neighbor's fence and talk. My kids have asked, I have answered, they SEE me act, and they follow suit.

 

In no way does the church teach to act this way toward gay members of society. That's just where she is.

Edited September 14, 2011 by justamouse
adding an apostrophe

[NicAnn]

Edited. Not important.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Nicoleandco

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree: with everything Chucki says (except that I am not RC). I really detest this "liberal/homosexual agenda" talk--as if there were some great monolith out there. To me, blog posts like this just make the poster look ridiculous.

 

Agreed. I see the same things from liberals like me though - vast right wing conspiracies and such. It's an attempt to lump all opposing views from the "other" into one group so they can be easily dismissed without any real thought or consideration.

[Parrothead]

Yes, you may notice I never once referred to her as a Catholic. I know she self-identifies as such, but I have never known of the Church to espouse the kind of extreme views she seems to. The Church at least accepts that some people are just born gay. It doesn't approve of acting out on that orientation (a point where I sharply disagree with), but my goodness, none of the Catholic priests or Catholic friends I've known have ever talked like that woman does.

 

Her views are not rare though, and that's the problem. If I had to put a label on her, it'd be a type of cultural Christianity, that's mixed with extreme homophobia.

Honestly I was for a moment surprised to see the Miraculous Medal flashing next to her post. It was my own bigotry, "Oh, she isn't ______."

 

No, her views are not rare. As with any group there are those more to the left and those more to the right. Sadly those more to the right are quite legalistic in their views.

[Parrothead]

How about saying, "That's just where she is right now." I say that a lot, about a lot of people, and I hope that people give me the same grace.

 

I have a gay couple who own a house two doors down. They are awesome. My kids play in their yard, they talk to them, we exchange Christmas cookies and hang over the neighbors fence and talk. My kids have asked, I have answered, they SEE me act, and they follow suit.

 

In no way does the church teach to act this way toward gay members of society. That's just where she is.

I thought similar also. (Apparently I had a lot of thoughts when I read her post.) She sounded young. She sounded young, and scared and I can even see confusion in there.

 

Sadly unless someone takes her gently in hand she won't change her views.

[WishboneDawn]

I think that some people just don't understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to live in a world where everyone agrees with you and acts accordingly.

 

They are making it so hard on themselves by constantly being on the lookout for "sinners" and staying away from them.

 

I think thread is a great companion for the Homeschool Blindspots article and thread and it's focus on the sheltering that goes in with some Christians and homeschoolers.

 

Honestly, even just from a parent's POV I can't understand that women. So what if the kids don't get the idea of two mommies? Then it goes over their head. If they ask about it you just give a simple answer about it. If you disagree with the notion of two mommies, bring it up for discussion at another time. Then get on with your life.

 

Kids encounter new things we'd rather they not ALL THE TIME. There's no way to avoid it. Kids don't live in a world removed from ours that's all rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

Aelwydd - I have nothing to add to your comments about how Christians should act. You're spot on.

[momma2three]

I'm always astounded when adults haven't heard of very famous and well read children's books... she was a little girl when the show was on TV and the books wildly popular, and she has 7 kids now (4 of whom are girls and most or all of whom are school age, according to her blog), and she's never heard of the Little House books?

 

To me, that alone says something about her education level and her life experiences. She is obviously very, very sheltered.

 

As to the blog post itself, it reads like a parody to me. I know that it's not, but I wouldn't be surprised if I saw it on The Onion. That level of nastiness just makes me so sad for the world. I'm very proud to live in the first state to legalize gay marriage. We also have one of the lowest unemployment rates, one of the lowest poverty rates, and are one of the most educated states.

[Caitilin]

Agreed. I see the same things from liberals like me though - vast right wing conspiracies and such. It's an attempt to lump all opposing views from the "other" into one group so they can be easily dismissed without any real thought or consideration.

 

Oh, I know what you mean, and, shockingly (:D!), I completely agree with you, on all counts.:D

[elegantlion]

I

 

Honestly, even just from a parent's POV I can't understand that women. So what if the kids don't get the idea of two mommies? Then it goes over their head. If they ask about it you just give a simple answer about it. If you disagree with the notion of two mommies, bring it up for discussion at another time. Then get on with your life.

 

 

I think she was using her kids as an intro to her tirade. :glare: I really don't know what to say. She's afraid to leave her house? I probably wouldn't be too excited about any couple (straight or gay) going at it, hot and heavy, at a childrens' playground. But she equates hand holding and shoulder rubs and looking at each other as offensive?

 

Perhaps she should move to a different state. :001_huh:

[NicAnn]

I think thread is a great companion for the Homeschool Blindspots article and thread and it's focus on the sheltering that goes in with some Christians and homeschoolers.

 

Honestly, even just from a parent's POV I can't understand that women. So what if the kids don't get the idea of two mommies? Then it goes over their head. If they ask about it you just give a simple answer about it. If you disagree with the notion of two mommies, bring it up for discussion at another time. Then get on with your life.

 

Kids encounter new things we'd rather they not ALL THE TIME. There's no way to avoid it. Kids don't live in a world removed from ours that's all rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

Aelwydd - I have nothing to add to your comments about how Christians should act. You're spot on.

 

I agree. I'd much rather explain why Heather has two mommies than why that other kids mother just whacked him upside the head at Walmart.

[Parrothead]

I think she was using her kids as an intro to her tirade. :glare: I really don't know what to say. She's afraid to leave her house? I probably wouldn't be too excited about any couple (straight or gay) going at it, hot and heavy, at a childrens' playground. But she equates hand holding and shoulder rubs and looking at each other as offensive?

 

Perhaps she should move to a different state. :001_huh:

Oh, but don't you know "they" are everywhere. :001_huh::glare: :001_rolleyes: ;)

 

Yes that was sarcasm.

[elegantlion]

She should probably remove her e-mail address from her "about me" section if she doesn't want to receive any more comments.

[elegantlion]

Oh, but don't you know "they" are everywhere. :001_huh::glare: :001_rolleyes: ;)

 

Yes that was sarcasm.

 

But it's only legal in a few select states. :tongue_smilie: Wait, the marriage part, but if she doesn't want to explain ...well, then she shouldn't move to a state where gay marriage is NOT legal, wouldn't that make it like a double immorality (also sarcasm), not married and same sex couple?

[kiana]

I agree. I'd much rather explain why Heather has two mommies than why that other kids mother just whacked him upside the head at Walmart.

 

Yeah, no kidding.

[kitten18]

 

Kids encounter new things we'd rather they not ALL THE TIME. There's no way to avoid it. Kids don't live in a world removed from ours that's all rainbows and unicorn farts.

 

:lol: That made me laugh so hard I snorted.

 

 

 

The blog........ugh. I'm Catholic and her views embarrass me. Then the comments, double ugh.

[merry gardens]

Ok, that other thread is so long, and taken so many twists, that it's easier to focus on my concerns here. Namely, it seems that there is some debate about whether the way some Christians express their anti-gay beliefs are hateful or not.

 

I understand that some folks just not going to ever agree with gay people having the same rights and civil liberties as straight people. I don't agree, but I do understand. ...

Yes, some Christians don't express themselves well. Many people struggle with expressing their opinions. Sometimes people come off as "hateful" and "intolerant" but it's up to God to judge those people you think come off as hateful.

 

I think the next comment you made comes across as judgemental and well, possibly even hateful and intolerant of those who disagree with you. You don't understand. I agree with you that gays and straights all have the same rights and civil liberties. That's not to point. The point is that people, (gay, straight, bi, whatever) do not have the "right" to engage in whatever sexual activities they happen to desire. Some desires are ordered towards the way God designed human seuality--and some are not. We don't have a right to engage in sexual behaviors that hurt other people. It hurts society. It even hurts the people who engage in it.

 

Yes, some people do not express their opinions well. I may not have expressed mine well. That doesn't mean that I am hateful or intolerant of homosexuals. I hold them to the same standards that I hold heterosexuals. Pointing out the sexual sins of heterosexuals offends far more people.

[3peasinapod]

I have not read all the replies, but I was in a conversation with an acquaintance on how she thinks all homosexuals go to hell. I have come to grips as of now that sin is sin. Like the OP said, hate the sin, not the sinner.

 

I think a lot of Christians do plenty of things that are secret and not out and blatant. How is that better than homosexuality? It's in the heart and Jesus said it's still sin.

 

I've cut down all of my thoughts to simplify, but this is what I believe now.

[Chelli]

My motto in life: Never trust a woman who doesn't know what the Little House books are. (I couldn't believe she said that in her comments:confused:)

 

She must live under a rock! Oh wait, that's where she WANTS to live :D

[twoforjoy]

I want to know what others think is the best way to address this kind of attitude in the churches. But, please, do not go to the blog and post or write mean things to her in response to her post. (I'm pretty sure she's closed off comments anyway, but the point of this post is to discuss it here, not send a bunch of enraged posters to her blog! Thanks!)

 

I don't know, I doubt she's getting that from her church. She's probably getting it more from secular sources--like right-wing talk radio--and from Christian parachurch organization--like Focus on the Family--and from politicians trying to scare voters into supporting them than from anything she's hearing from her priest. At least I hope so.

 

I do think churches have a big responsibility to teach people not to hate. More than that, actually; they have to teach them to love. I mean, that's why I go to church. I am terrible at loving people, and church is the only place I can go where there's a bunch of other people all trying to learn how to love better, too. If the people in your church are coming out more hateful and afraid than they were when they went in, then you are doing it wrong.

 

So then the question is, how can you best love somebody like this woman? I don't know her, so all I can do from this distance is pray for her, that God will change her heart (being fully aware that there's lots of things God needs to change my heart on, too, including not feeling anger and hatred toward people like this woman, because that is my first response when I read her words). If a close friend expressed that kind of thing, I guess I'd feel like the best response would be to try to figure out why they were so scared. I don't think you could argue them out of their position, because it's just not reasonable. Gay people aren't out to get them, they aren't out to "recruit" their children, they have no scary agenda, and her children are no doubt exposed to tons of stuff that she'd rather they didn't see that she just ignores every day. So the facts are out there, and if she wanted to see them, she would. But this woman isn't in a place to see them, and I think there's really nothing you can do, at that point, except love her where she is, and pray and hope that she will move past her fear and hatred at some point.

Edited September 14, 2011 by twoforjoy

[Impish]

Personally, I dislike *anyone* telling me how I should think, feel, believe. Anyone that attempts to do that to me is automatically dismissed.

[justamouse]

I think thread is a great companion for the Homeschool Blindspots article and thread and it's focus on the sheltering that goes in with some Christians and homeschoolers.

 

:iagree:

[staceyobu]

I am confused in general by the attitude from Christians that others should be following their moral code. If the reason for the moral code is a relationship with Christ, then why would people who don't have that act according to the moral code?

[Mrs Mungo]

I am confused in general by the attitude from Christians that others should be following their moral code. If the reason for the moral code is a relationship with Christ, then why would people who don't have that act according to the moral code?

 

:iagree: Except, as a Christian, I would say, "*some* Christians."

 

I agree that I doubt she is getting this stuff from the church. This stuff is coming from the media and places like that. I wonder if she is an official convert or an unofficial one. I wonder if she is actively receiving a Catholic education.

[WishboneDawn]

Yes, some Christians don't express themselves well. Many people struggle with expressing their opinions. Sometimes people come off as "hateful" and "intolerant" but it's up to God to judge those people you think come off as hateful.

 

I think the next comment you made comes across as judgemental and well, possibly even hateful and intolerant of those who disagree with you. You don't understand. I agree with you that gays and straights all have the same rights and civil liberties. That's not to point. The point is that people, (gay, straight, bi, whatever) do not have the "right" to engage in whatever sexual activities they happen to desire. Some desires are ordered towards the way God designed human seuality--and some are not. We don't have a right to engage in sexual behaviors that hurt other people. It hurts society. It even hurts the people who engage in it.

 

Yes, some people do not express their opinions well. I may not have expressed mine well. That doesn't mean that I am hateful or intolerant of homosexuals. I hold them to the same standards that I hold heterosexuals. Pointing out the sexual sins of heterosexuals offends far more people.

 

No, I think Aelwydd's post was good and there was nothing hateful about it.

 

The point is that you don't have the "right" to engage in whatever sexual activities you happen to desire because you've chosen a particular Christian path in life. Chucki doesn't have that choice and others who've posted in this and the other thread don't have that choice because they've chosen a path that clearly states certain behaviours are not acceptable. But the boundaries of that choice end right at the tip of your toes.

 

Beyond that, it's the rules of the secular states we live in. Beyond that, those of us who've chosen a Christian path are specifically told not to judge and further, to reach out and embrace those who we might call sinners. We are not told to go home and post a rant about how our day was ruined by other people just going about there normal and mundane lives in our presence.

 

I think what Aelwydd understands is that you're bound to certain beliefs because you've chosen to take a certain Christian path. She understands why you believe as you explained. What's being understood though is why that belief doesn't translate into compassion and outreach rather then the blogger's rant. Why is that woman not extending a hand to those couples she saw and offering grace? Afterall, Christianity revolves around that sort of outreach and compassion NOT a fixation on what gay people might be doing within our view.

 

Aelwydd is NOT asking that you or anyone else accept that homosexualtiy is not a sin. She's simply asking why our response to that "sin" (and I use quotes for my saek because I don't agree that it is) is not more...Christian.

[WishboneDawn]

 

So then the question is, how can you best love somebody like this woman? I don't know her, so all I can do from this distance is pray for her, that God will change her heart (being fully aware that there's lots of things God needs to change my heart on, too, including not feeling anger and hatred toward people like this woman, because that is my first response when I read her words). If a close friend expressed that kind of thing, I guess I'd feel like the best response would be to try to figure out why they were so scared. I don't think you could argue them out of their position, because it's just not reasonable. Gay people aren't out to get them, they aren't out to "recruit" their children, they have no scary agenda, and her children are no doubt exposed to tons of stuff that she'd rather they didn't see that she just ignores every day. So the facts are out there, and if she wanted to see them, she would. But this woman isn't in a place to see them, and I think there's really nothing you can do, at that point, except love her where she is, and pray and hope that she will move past her fear and hatred at some point.

 

Wonderful point. :001_smile:

[Ellesmere]

Yes, you may notice I never once referred to her as a Catholic. I know she self-identifies as such, but I have never known of the Church to espouse the kind of extreme views she seems to. The Church at least accepts that some people are just born gay. It doesn't approve of acting out on that orientation (a point where I sharply disagree with), but my goodness, none of the Catholic priests or Catholic friends I've known have ever talked like that woman does.

 

Her views are not rare though, and that's the problem. If I had to put a label on her, it'd be a type of cultural Christianity, that's mixed with extreme homophobia.

Thanks for not picking on her being Catholic. In my youth, I thought Catholics did have these kind of extreme views and was not kind in my opinion of them.

 

The blogger talks like some of fundamentalist (non-Catholic) that I know. Some are just plain phobic and bigoted. I grew up in a town where the fundamentalists of every sort (Baptist, Catholic, along with non-religious bigots) banded together to harp on public school prayer, literature by homosexual authors, and book banning. In my youth, it turned me off from church and religion because that was the only side I saw. I do wish her views were rare and am glad I don't personally know Catholics that talk like that (I have, but I don't anymore. I have friends in another denomination that think like this, though.)

Edited September 14, 2011 by Clairelise

[Aquinas Academy]

I'm with you. I can't reconcile that attitude either, and I am Catholic. The same as she.

 

I don't know.

 

I know what the church teaches and it is not hate.

 

Some people just have to be holier than thou. Myself included, just not in this area.

 

 

ETA: I "heard" a lot of fear in her post.

:iagree:

As a Catholic it really saddens me when I see such hatred from fellow Catholics. That is not what the Church teachs.

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree:

As a Catholic it really saddens me when I see such hatred from fellow Catholics. That is not what the Church teachs.

 

I wonder if there aren't some that might teach it though.

 

I know that a problem in the Anglican church has been the uneven of quality of minister. Some parishes got well-educated people steeped in liturgy and others got fire and brimstone charismatics. Of course, being the weird Catholic-Protestant netherworld we are that's probably to be expected. But even the Catholics must occasionally get a dud. :) And they have to send them to some church, don't they?

 

So I guess it's not what the Church teaches but it might well be what the church taught them.

[LidiyaDawn]

Yuck. :ack2:

 

..and I had to laugh at her remark in the comment section about 'not being able to rant on her own Catholic blog' or whatever without being attacked… she writes a PUBLIC BLOG POST on what she darn well knows is a contentious topic, LEAVES it public after it's linked here there and everywhere… yeah, because she totally wanted to do a little private venting. :rolleyes:

[Wheres Toto]

Yuck to the blog post. I notice she was worried about what her kids might ask but never said that they actually did ask anything. Kids don't read into every situation like adults do. She doesn't even know for certain any of those couples (except the two mommies I guess) are gay. I've seen my dd give huge hugs and be touchy-feely with her female friends and she is most definitely straight. An awful lot of fear shown there.

 

Y We don't have a right to engage in sexual behaviors that hurt other people. It hurts society. It even hurts the people who engage in it.

 

 

Just curious how you think private sexual behavior hurts society or anyone but the people engaging in it? I haven't heard that before.

[Aquinas Academy]

I wonder if there aren't some that might teach it though.

 

I know that a problem in the Anglican church has been the uneven of quality of minister. Some parishes got well-educated people steeped in liturgy and others got fire and brimstone charismatics. Of course, being the weird Catholic-Protestant netherworld we are that's probably to be expected. But even the Catholics must occasionally get a dud. :) And they have to send them to some church, don't they?

 

So I guess it's not what the Church teaches but it might well be what the church taught them.

Yep, we have our share of duds. :) So there are some parishes (maybe the blogger attends such a parish) that might teach hatred to homosexuals. But as far as official RCC teaching goes, hatred and bigotry are not what is taught.

[merry gardens]

I don't know, I doubt she's getting that from her church. She's probably getting it more from secular sources--like right-wing talk radio--and from Christian parachurch organization--like Focus on the Family--and from politicians trying to scare voters into supporting them than from anything she's hearing from her priest. At least I hope so.

 

I do think churches have a big responsibility to teach people not to hate. More than that, actually; they have to teach them to love. I mean, that's why I go to church. I am terrible at loving people, and church is the only place I can go where there's a bunch of other people all trying to learn how to love better, too. If the people in your church are coming out more hateful and afraid than they were when they went in, then you are doing it wrong.

 

So then the question is, how can you best love somebody like this woman? I don't know her, so all I can do from this distance is pray for her, that God will change her heart (being fully aware that there's lots of things God needs to change my heart on, too, including not feeling anger and hatred toward people like this woman, because that is my first response when I read her words). If a close friend expressed that kind of thing, I guess I'd feel like the best response would be to try to figure out why they were so scared. I don't think you could argue them out of their position, because it's just not reasonable. Gay people aren't out to get them, they aren't out to "recruit" their children, they have no scary agenda, and her children are no doubt exposed to tons of stuff that she'd rather they didn't see that she just ignores every day. So the facts are out there, and if she wanted to see them, she would. But this woman isn't in a place to see them, and I think there's really nothing you can do, at that point, except love her where she is, and pray and hope that she will move past her fear and hatred at some point.

I didn't read all of that other thread, so I don't know what the person you ladies are writing about or what she wrote that sounded hateful and offensive to many of you.

 

I like what twoforjoy wrote about church teaching people how to love. Christians are called to love others as Christ loved us. How did He love us? In a self-sacrificial, life-giving way.

 

The Bible uses the language of marriage to compare the relationship that Jesus has with Christians. It speaks of Christ as the Bridegroom and the Church as His Bride. Jesus loves us in a life-giving, sacrificial manner--and marriage reflects that with it's potentially life-giving nature.

[Trish]

I'm not gonna judge Christians with judgmental attitudes. You never know if they were born that way, brought up that way, or they're just hormonal.

 

:D

[ElizaG]

I think this post is over the top... so much anger and fear. At the same time, as a practicing Catholic, I'm glad that our family has been able to put off discussing this topic with our younger children. If we found ourselves in a situation that led to questions, it wouldn't be the end of the world, but as one of the commenters on the blog put it:

 

"It is about someone in the public sphere forcing me to remove another layer of my child's innocence before I feel they are of age."

 

Like that commenter, though, I'm actually much more upset when fellow Catholics decide to subject other people's young children to graphic discussion or images relating to abortion. This has happened to us at homeschool groups, with guest speakers at Mass, etc. I know some parents think it's fine for their 3-year-olds to hear about this harsh reality, but not everyone does. To me, disregarding these concerns shows a real lack of respect and prudence, and this is coming from people who are supposed to share our worldview. The same can't be said of same-sex couples, especially when they live in a neighborhood where most people accept their situation as normal. In that case, it doesn't make much sense to me to get upset with them as individuals. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to characterize the blogger's attitude as "hateful," but whatever it is, it seems to me to be misdirected.

 

BTW, since someone mentioned it -- there are some parks and shopping areas that I tend to avoid because there are parents who are constantly yelling at their kids, teenagers playing rough games with younger siblings, etc. We don't live in a bubble by any means, but we do try to "filter the inputs" somewhat. I'm grateful that we often have the chance to do that. There will be time enough for them to learn about all the ways of the world when they're a bit older.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Eleanor
clarification

[WishboneDawn]

I didn't read all of that other thread, so I don't know what the person you ladies are writing about or what she wrote that sounded hateful and offensive to many of you.

 

It's summed up in these two sentences for me:

 

This is my community. I find myself unable to even leave the house anymore without worrying about what in tarnation we are going to encounter.

 

She talking about public space. She's talking about space that's those gay couples have as much right to be in as she does. She's talking about couples doing perfectly normal and appropriate things for couples to do in that public space.

 

The implication is that she has a special right to that space that they don't. That was her park, not theirs. It's not hyperbole to start envisioning a "back of the bus" type scenario if that kind of thinking is acceptable.

 

Her reasoning is bad as well and I personally find that offensive. :D Her views are a result of her private faith and yet she uses the fact that she's a taxpayer to support her assertion that she shouldn't see those people doing what they're doing in the public space. She's paying those taxes to a secular government, not a Christian one and that secular government's duty is to all citizens, not one special class of Christians.

 

And, as a Christian I find it hard to swallow as well for the reasons everyone from Aelwydd on has stated. Her answer to the question, "What do I do about this?" has been to focus completely on herself. She's not asking what she can do to reach out to these people or show them compassion or lead them to Christ, she's publicly stating that her primary concern in all this is her. What will she say to her children, how will she go out her front door, etc. Her Christianity is strikingly absent from that bit of her thinking process.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yuck to the blog post. I notice she was worried about what her kids might ask but never said that they actually did ask anything. Kids don't read into every situation like adults do. She doesn't even know for certain any of those couples (except the two mommies I guess) are gay. I've seen my dd give huge hugs and be touchy-feely with her female friends and she is most definitely straight.

 

I once belonged to a secular homeschool group that met at a park every other Tuesday. On one of those Tuesdays a church hs group met there too, but they would not associate with us (and were rude to people who approached them). Oh, and there was one dad in the group. One day one of the little girls in the group asked, "why are there several mommies and only one daddy in your family?" I said, "I guess that explains why they don't associate with us!" :lol:

[MelanieM]

twoforjoy, I really loved what you wrote about extending love to this person. I'm not a Christian , but I still feel it is entirely relevant to how we should meet anyone in life. So I went to read a bit more about this woman, in hopes of understanding her a little better. Here's her conversion story, for anyone else that's interested: http://whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/protestant-converts/baptist/item/73-baptist-convert-stacy-trasancos

 

I do think what she wrote about the experience of witnessing her childhood church not embracing the single mother is interesting in light of some of the comments here about her turning her back on others who don't fit her version of 'right' living. I wonder if she recognizes any parallels there.

[unsinkable]

It's summed up in these two sentences for me:

 

 

 

She talking about public space. She's talking about space that's those gay couples have as much right to be in as she does. She's talking about couples doing perfectly normal and appropriate things for couples to do in that public space.

 

The implication is that she has a special right to that space that they don't. That was her park, not theirs. It's not hyperbole to start envisioning a "back of the bus" type scenario if that kind of thinking is acceptable.

 

Her reasoning is bad as well and I personally find that offensive. :D Her views are a result of her private faith and yet she uses the fact that she's a taxpayer to support her assertion that she shouldn't see those people doing what they're doing in the public space. She's paying those taxes to a secular government, not a Christian one and that secular government's duty is to all citizens, not one special class of Christians.

 

And, as a Christian I find it hard to swallow as well for the reasons everyone from Aelwydd on has stated. Her answer to the question, "What do I do about this?" has been to focus completely on herself. She's not asking what she can do to reach out to these people or show them compassion or lead them to Christ, she's publicly stating that her primary concern in all this is her. What will she say to her children, how will she go out her front door, etc. Her Christianity is strikingly absent from that bit of her thinking process.

 

So you are saying that in a state where gay marriage is legal your fear is that this woman's thoughts will lead to segregation of gays?

[justamouse]

twoforjoy, I really loved what you wrote about extending love to this person. I'm not a Christian , but I still feel it is entirely relevant to how we should meet anyone in life. So I went to read a bit more about this woman, in hopes of understanding her a little better. Here's her conversion story, for anyone else that's interested: http://whyimcatholic.com/index.php/conversion-stories/protestant-converts/baptist/item/73-baptist-convert-stacy-trasancos

 

I do think what she wrote about the experience of witnessing her childhood church not embracing the single mother is interesting in light of some of the comments here about her turning her back on others who don't fit her version of 'right' living. I wonder if she recognizes any parallels there.

 

 

After reading all of that, I think she's swung high on the opposite side of the pendulum.

[MelanieM]

After reading all of that, I think she's swung high on the opposite side of the pendulum.

 

I had the same thought. I think a lot of people move in such a way when they are working on healing of their own issues. Extremes abound.

[Ellie]

Jesus gravitated towards the sinners and outcasts, didn't he? Shouldn't the average Christian, then, look to minister to gay people, if he or she believes them to be in sin? Rather than seek to ostracize them, penalize them, and consign them to the dark and invisible corners of society?

Jesus didn't "gravitate" towards the sinners. He sought them out and loved on them...but He led them to repent of their sin, not to dwell in it and embrace it.

[leeannpal]

I think that some people just don't understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to live in a world where everyone agrees with you and acts accordingly.

 

They are making it so hard on themselves by constantly being on the lookout for "sinners" and staying away from them.

:iagree:

[Rivka]

It makes me sad that she is so afraid. How sad to think of her family hiding in their house for fear that, at the pool, two women might both be acting maternal towards the same baby. How sad that people playing with their toddler at the park send her fleeing home in disgust and fear.

 

How sad that the very existence of gay families makes her feel as if her rights are somehow being violated.

 

I've never understood the handwringing about "what on earth would I say to my child, who couldn't possibly understand?!" My kids have been around same-sex couples since birth. (Since before birth, actually. My husband and I lobbied the state legislature for marriage equality when I was seven months pregnant with my oldest.) They have friends who have two mommies. They had a lesbian part-time nanny for two years. The gay couple next door have just started the adoption process with two little boys.

 

My kids have never seemed to find any of this complicated to understand. It's so self-evident to them that Miss L and Miss B are mommies to the twins, and that Mr. S and Mr. S are doing something awesome by bringing new kids into the neighborhood. My kids know a family when they see one, and that makes understanding very simple.

[Scarlett]

Jesus didn't "gravitate" towards the sinners. He sought them out and loved on them...but He led them to repent of their sin, not to dwell in it and embrace it.

 

Yes. This.

[ElizaG]

I didn't make it through the whole conversion story, but did read enough to see that the author has had a lifelong struggle with severe anxiety and other mental health problems, to the point of being hospitalized, self-harming, and spending years in therapy. It gave me a different perspective on some of the language in the post:

 

"I was again anxiously watching my children"

"I've developed this ever-present jumpiness"

"I find myself unable to even leave the house anymore without worrying"

"knowing this... makes me afraid to leave the house"

 

:(