Article by Josh Harris - Homeschool Blindspots

[Julie in MN]

(The thread about book choices where even Ender's Game is too non-conservative a book is an example (imho) of the type of attempt at control that the article is referring to. The sort of desire to so shelter our offspring that no exposure to the world is permitted.)

Sebastian,

I don't see how choosing to assign literature with higher role models is the same as control. Just tonight, my ds's friend was telling me that she's going to refuse to read the assigned book in her public school - Catcher in the Rye. Sometimes kids are bombarded with poor examples and embarrassed, really. I think it would be very rare today to shelter a child from all language and nudity and such, unless you lived out in the country without electricity and sewed your own clothes.

 

Instead, some of us wish to provide our children the luxury of a small island of goodness amidst the world they were born into. We wish to show them the very best, knowing we will never keep them from seeing the very worst out there.

 

But no one would think he was being a good dad to introduce his kids to strip clubs. So you have two things that are clearly both extreme. But where is the dividing line?

Maybe it depends on where you live. At our house, the other side of the line is already very well represented, thank you very much.

 

We know people who were raised by extremely permissive parents. They were brats when they were little and their parents didn't like them very much. They had rocky young adulthoods with lots of dangerous experimentation. If their parents were loving, stable parents rather than neglectful or unstable parents, they turned out fine in the end. They wound up very compassionate people, embracing their parents' values, although with the emphasis on "explore and discover your own beliefs", they didn't necessarily wind up the same religion as their parents. If you want to keep your children's hearts, this seems to be the best way.

Nan,

I think that might be one way, but surely it's not the only way? I've known very permissive parents, both by love and by neglect. Some of these kids turned out well, while others are selfish, financially ruined, and not very loving in return -- because it's all about them, after all. I doubt anything can be said to be the best way?

 

Julie

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Sebastian,

I don't see how choosing to assign literature with higher role models is the same as control. Just tonight, my ds's friend was telling me that she's going to refuse to read the assigned book in her public school - Catcher in the Rye. Sometimes kids are bombarded with poor examples and embarrassed, really. I think it would be very rare today to shelter a child from all language and nudity and such, unless you lived out in the country without electricity and sewed your own clothes.

 

I think there is a difference between saying that a particular book is too dark and being unable to come up with any literature suggestions that your high school student can read and write about. The thread I referenced was full of strings of suggestions that seemed to be all shot down as too ... well too something. Too dark, some language, somewhat violent, on down the line to not interesting enough. What struck me in that thread (and the reason I mentioned it here) was that the parent wasn't able to offer suggestions for acceptable reading material. There is (in my mind) a world of difference between saying that a book like Catcher in the Rye is not worth the time and effort (I'd agree that it's terribly oversold as a classic, and I have read it) and having no suggestions at all. I can't help but wonder if the family of the teen boy in that thread has contributed to his being a non-reader by opining that most books are not acceptable choices.

 

Instead, some of us wish to provide our children the luxury of a small island of goodness amidst the world they were born into. We wish to show them the very best, knowing we will never keep them from seeing the very worst out there.

 

I would say this is a desire that most parents share.

 

 

Maybe it depends on where you live. At our house, the other side of the line is already very well represented, thank you very much.

 

I'm probably being dense tonight, but I am not understanding your response.

 

 

 

Julie

 

Have a nice evening.

[Nan in Mass]

Best way IF THEY SURVIVE. And I was assuming that the parents were loving, etc. In my opinion, it isn't a viable way. It is much too risky and the children are not pleasant to be with when they are children. I guess my point didn't come through in my post.

[SorrelZG]

I've been pondering this very thing of late. In the past years I've read quite a few parenting books and have gleaned much from them, also from my own trusted circle but DH and I have found it incredibly difficult to find our own stride as parents. Simply following a formula hasn't worked out. We've worked hard to tie apples onto our trees. I got to the point of crying out that I want to enjoy my children and for them to enjoy me and the only response I could find was something in the way of this being a difficult season of training but the work will pay off in time .. and I have to instruct an discipline them, not just do what will please them - and I wasn't arguing these things! Everyone was missing my point ENTIRELY. I wasn't making a motion for permissive parenting. My issue was - what good is my instruction and discipline if my children know I'm irritated with them and displeased pretty much all the time? I can't keep following these rules and expect to do anything but damage if my heart isn't towards my children but I guess I'm a freak because the sources I was getting information from seemed to presume this since they never mentioned it.

 

I've had (am having) to make some big changes that have me feeling like a rebel (it doesn't help that I also read books that are not on the "approved author" list - we don't really have such an official list but it feels like it we do). I don't have anything against the way those I highly respect do things (or our church's most recommended parenting resources) but I'm an individual with my own problems to work through in the context of daily parenting and I've got a horse that needs tending to before I can give so much attention to any cart or else what good will a cart do me?

 

Thank-you for the article. I've e-mailed it to my husband so he can read it and discuss it with me.

[SorrelZG]

I think there is a tendency to discount inborn personality, and also to discount the community and the culture at large. With our lack of television and tight family clan, when I was growing up, we tended to consider ourselves sort of immune from the culture of our community. LOL Then my mother decided to have her new kitchen all white and two years later, all white kitchens became the rage. We began to notice numerous examples of this, despite the almost total lack of advertisements and popular culutre in our lives. We tend to be almost exactly two years ahead of whatever is popular. We concluded that few people escape this, even if they have a strong family culture, even if they homeschool, even if they have no tv and seldom see any ads in any form of media.

 

 

I have noticed this and it freaks me out. The paranoid side of me thinks there is something in the water or air (although I haven't quit partaking). After watching the Merchants of Cool documentary I briefly pondered whether I could be being followed but I rarely go anywhere. :001_huh:

 

:lol:

[Julie in MN]

Maybe it depends on where you live. At our house, the other side of the line is already very well represented, thank you very much.

 

I'm probably being dense tonight, but I am not understanding your response.

 

I'm sorry, I see that wasn't clear, you're right.

 

The thing is that I don't feel that not requiring a book is the same as control that you mention here (unless as I mentioned you live out on a farm with no electricity or something).

(The thread about book choices where even Ender's Game is too non-conservative a book is an example (imho) of the type of attempt at control that the article is referring to. The sort of desire to so shelter our offspring that no exposure to the world is permitted.)

 

In my world, society is presenting itself front & center. I almost fell over when I had the news or something on TV and a new series was advertised as a playboy club. So to me a conservative book choice in a homeschool looks like this:

 

HUGE SOCIETY INPUT........ ^ .......teeny tiny input from careful book choice

 

 

Have a nice evening.

 

You too, definitely, hope I didn't sound otherwise.

[Sweetpeach]

 

I appreciate Reb Bradley's humility but part of me is wondering why this article is such a revelation. (there, I said it)

 

:iagree: Relationship is the most important aspect of our day. I'm forever asking myself how I can make academics a priority and a joy without damaging the back and forth, respectful relationship we have with our children.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Sweetpeach

[Kim in SouthGa]

I haven't had time to read everything, but wanted to share my parenting experience (or rather, being parented). My sister and I were the only two children. Both of us were raised in the same home, same circumstances (and not very good ones), same parents, same school-we are three years apart, her the oldest. And we couldn't be more different. She chose a life of drugs, alcohol, etc. She has 7 kids by 3 or 4 different fathers, never works, been to prison, addict, etc. We both drank a lot in high school, but she went to the extreme, and never stopped. And I'm sure this is the case in many families. So while I recognize that good parenting or lack of good parenting contributes somewhat to a child's ultimate outcome, there is more to it. I know that there but for the grace of God, I would be in the same situation as my sister.

 

I had no problem with the article, but I am one who is always "eating the chicken and throwing away the bones", as my MIL used to say, so I might have completely missed something! I especially appreciated the reminder not to let our dreams for our children take over what should be their dreams. I had a discussion with my 15 ds and told him to make sure and tell me if that became the case. I have found that we shift and change as parents as our children grow and change. We have to be flexible on some things while remembering that others are non-negotiable. My main goal and measure of my success as a parent will be if they want to come back home :D Do they remember home as a place of safety, security, joy, warm fuzzy memories? Even discipline can bring those feelings, so I'm not talking about a home where they got everything they wanted-I think anyone who has been a parent for any amount of time knows that that just brings heartache. I want them to remember home as a real home. I left for college and visited home maybe 5 times until I was married. I always dreaded going home, and I do not want my kids to feel that way.

[Jane in NC]

Relationship is the most important aspect of our day. I'm forever asking myself how I can make academics a priority and a joy without damaging the back and forth, respectful relationship we have with our children.

 

But this is where what Nan calls "familly culture" kicks in. Families that read together tend to produce readers. Families that encourage curiosity can produce children who are science literate.

 

For us there is no disconnect between academics and joy, academics and individual passions, academics and solid family relationships. This is quite different than controling our children so that they become the people we want them to be--not the people who they are.

[angela in ohio]

Relationship is the most important aspect of our day. I'm forever asking myself how I can make academics a priority and a joy without damaging the back and forth, respectful relationship we have with our children.

 

Honestly, it's the opposite here. Relationship is the reason I can easily make academics a priority. Because we have a respectful relationship, they want to do the things we do and they enjoy the same things we value. Whenever younger homeschoolers ask me "how I get them like this" :D, I always tell them their first priority should be building their relationship.

[Nissi]

I agree with Angela in Ohio that relationship is key. My children value our input because of this and their understanding of a loving God and the Scriptures. Love does cover a multitude of sins and my parents love for us has resulted in my siblings and my good relationship with them despite their imperfect parenting. Prayer changes things and is also essential. My grandparents and parents prayed much for us.

[Nan in Mass]

LOL I know. It seems rather spooky.

[Nan in Mass]

Have you read The Five Love Languages of Children?

I have older children. They are good people. We enjoy them very much. We have always, even at the worst of the terrible toddler and teenage stage, laughed and had fun together upon occasion. I just want to encourage you that it can be done. If you respect and listen to your children and try to find out WHY they did whatever displeased you, you will build a good relationship with them. I think many, many "bad" things children do are really just mistakes.

Nan

[Nissi]

Yes, I am currently reading " The Five Love Languages of Teenagers" and find it very useful.

[justamouse]

I think there is a tendency to discount inborn personality, and also to discount the community and the culture at large. With our lack of television and tight family clan, when I was growing up, we tended to consider ourselves sort of immune from the culture of our community. LOL Then my mother decided to have her new kitchen all white and two years later, all white kitchens became the rage. We began to notice numerous examples of this, despite the almost total lack of advertisements and popular culutre in our lives. We tend to be almost exactly two years ahead of whatever is popular. We concluded that few people escape this, even if they have a strong family culture, even if they homeschool, even if they have no tv and seldom see any ads in any form of media. That saying "It takes a village to raise a child" appears to be true, even if you think you don't need that village or think you have provided your own alternative village.

 

 

 

Nan

 

That happens around here ALL the time. With everything. ei: I've wanted a tattoo for the longest time, but I dithered so long in deciding what that everyone has them and now I don't want one. My dh is looking for a way to make income from this ability. ;)

[justamouse]

But this is where what Nan calls "familly culture" kicks in. Families that read together tend to produce readers. Families that encourage curiosity can produce children who are science literate.

 

For us there is no disconnect between academics and joy, academics and individual passions, academics and solid family relationships. This is quite different than controlling our children so that they become the people we want them to be--not the people who they are.

 

SO good. Yes.

[SorrelZG]

Have you read The Five Love Languages of Children?

I have older children. They are good people. We enjoy them very much. We have always, even at the worst of the terrible toddler and teenage stage, laughed and had fun together upon occasion. I just want to encourage you that it can be done. If you respect and listen to your children and try to find out WHY they did whatever displeased you, you will build a good relationship with them. I think many, many "bad" things children do are really just mistakes.

Nan

 

I have read the original Five Love Languages but not the Children's one yet. I have been trying to apply what I have read though to all my relationships. That was one of my recent "off the approved authors list" reads that has been helpful.

 

Thank-you for the encouragement! It is much appreciated. :)

[Tullia]

My ds did say that he wasn't trying to tell me anything, just that he thought the moms (and dads) here might like to read this article. We also had a good conversation about how many of these points of concern can happen in any family, not just in homeschooling ones. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for sharing the link. I had to remind myself a lot that homeschooling is only a means--not an end in itself. And, there's no magic combo we as parents can apply to (or impose on) our children to achieve success.

[angela in ohio]

What's funny is that my dc don't read anything besides the classics. You could look at us and assume that we are legalistic and controlling because they aren't reading the books other teens are reading. From the outside, it looks just the same. But they don't read them because they don't want to. Because of our relationship, they value our opinions, and they don't want to read things that we say aren't useful. I have had long talks with my dds about the things I wish I hadn't been exposed to, and how I can't go back and un-read or un-see those things. They know why, and they know I care about them. I think as long as they see those two key things, you don't have an issue.

 

Yes, some is personality. One dd would just do what we tell her no matter what. She was born a rule-follower and a pleaser. But the other has a very different personality (she was a defiant, screaming terror when she was younger, but after much work now she is now just more indendent and questioning than her sister,) and if we didn't have the relationship, she would be incredibly rebellious.

 

Side note: I re-read the article last night, and I just love this so much: "I believe that a primary reason we over-rely on sheltering is because it is easy. It requires no planning or expenditure of energy. It takes minimal immediate brainpower. we simply assess that something might be harmful and say to our children, "No." I don't know if I would go so far as to call it lazy parenting, but I will say that investing in our children takes a lot more work and a lot more time." Printing this out to remind myself to do the right thing when I am tempted to just do the quick and easy.

Edited September 16, 2011 by angela in ohio

[TravelingChris]

I've seen some of the results of sheltering- they aren't always good and a lot of times, the parents don't know. LIke then senior homeschooled girl who told my then also senior dd about how she liked one college because people were smoking pot there and she thought it would be easy to get. Now her parents weren't like that, and neither are her two older siblings nor her one younger sister. BUt this one? Then there was the boy who was secretely dating a Muslim girl. Now his Mom was very strict about only dating Catholic girls and so he ends up dating a Moslem. Don't know what happened- I think they ended up going to the same university.

 

Anyway, one important aspect of having kids grow up, imho. is to let them join groups of young people- things like youth groups, Scouts or Venture groups, sports, etc. You want to let them grow into adulthood. Remember that age 18 (or 19 here:001_huh:) they aren't under your authority legally. That is why it is so important to both have the separation experiences and the goodwill nurtured so you do have some influence on them once they are that age. I can attest that having loving bonds is much easier than trying to threaten with withholding support or kicking out of the house.