Can you be a Christian and still

[Medstudent]

I am a Catholic, went to Catholic school et al, and I absolutely think that you can (and frankly, you should).

 

I judge men who cheat on their wives because they find it too difficult to maintain a commitment. I judge couples who get married because they think it'd be a fun adventure and divorce a few months later because they're bored. I judge people who would rather have children they can't afford to support and won't love as they deserve to be loved than use birth control. I judge men who are physically or emotionally abusive or who expect women to "submit" because that's the old way of things.

 

I don't judge my brilliant, wonderful, kind, loving homosexual friends for living their lives with grace and doing what makes them happy and hurts no one. And I firmly believe that the God I pray to doesn't either. If He does, then I'm fine with going to hell for something I feel so strongly about.

[Elizabeth in MN]

OP - Yes, you can is the answer to all your questions as posted here in this thread.

[dancer67]

WOW, I came back in to check all the responses, and this thread is 16 pages long!

 

I really appreciate all the feedback because I have been really torn up about this.

 

I do not have many real life friends. Because no matter who you are, what you look like, what your lifestyle is. If you treat me like dog-doo, I don't need you in my life.

 

Two of the couples I am BF's with, have never once stabbed me in the back, and have the kindest hearts of anyone I know. How could I possibly condemn them? It is the intent of their heart that matter to me. People who are there for me and my family. That is what friendship is about. They don't judge me for the things I do. So why should I judge them?

 

And I sin every.day.

[dancer67]

Thank you for saying this. I do wonder how many of the people saying that Christians can't be gay have known gay Christians. Several of the most amazing, loving, faithful Christians I've known in my life have been gay. You have REALLY got to love Jesus to stay a Christian when you are gay, given how much crap you are going to get both from Christians who are going to keep telling you what a horrible sinner you are and, unfortunately, also from some gay people who don't understand why you'd stay a part of such a hateful religion.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[dancer67]

Originally Posted by Slojo's Homeschool

I'm a Christian that accepts and believes homosexuality is not only ok, but as much of a gift from God as my own sexuality. I obviously believe that one can still be a Christian and think homosexuality is okay. The only criterion I believe for being Christian is BELIEF (not tithing, not voting a certain way, not wearing only skirts, etc... there's no Christian litmus test).

 

Do I believe that there are morally right expressions of sexuality? Yes. but those have more to do with whether sexuality is used to oppress or degrade as opposed to affirm and accept, whether it is within the context of a loving, mature relationship, etc... and I know many gay and lesbian couples whose love, respect and honor for each other blow heterosexual couples out of the water. I know many a heterosexual couple where there is much dysfunction and dishonor wrapped up in their acting on their sexuality and have much more concern for the state of those relationships than my two 50-something neighbors who are a lesbian couple and been in relationship with each other through child-rearing, cancer, family tragedy, etc for 20+ years... let me model my marriage after that rather than the fifth divorcing/separating heterosexual couple I've heard about in the last year.

 

Some of my deepest growth as a Christian has come from the example of gay and lesbian Christians who bore witness to me and opened up their lives and faith to me. What a gift! Sure glad I was open to it.

 

Thank you for this.:001_smile:

[livingnlearning]

I am a Catholic, went to Catholic school et al, and I absolutely think that you can (and frankly, you should).

 

I judge men who cheat on their wives because they find it too difficult to maintain a commitment. I judge couples who get married because they think it'd be a fun adventure and divorce a few months later because they're bored. I judge people who would rather have children they can't afford to support and won't love as they deserve to be loved than use birth control. I judge men who are physically or emotionally abusive or who expect women to "submit" because that's the old way of things.

 

I don't judge my brilliant, wonderful, kind, loving homosexual friends for living their lives with grace and doing what makes them happy and hurts no one. And I firmly believe that the God I pray to doesn't either. If He does, then I'm fine with going to hell for something I feel so strongly about.

 

I love this, especially your last paragraph, I fully agree.

[spaceman]

I'm a Christian and I don't believe homosexuality is a sin.

[Tree House Academy]

I love my gay former step-father, my gay friends, and my lesbian step-sister in law. It doesn't change the love I have for them...and no, I don't spend my time with them judging their choices. I pray for them and I pray for those who judge them in hatred. Jesus loves them sin and all. Jesus loves ME sin and all! I choose to follow Jesus' example.

[Parker Martin]

I'm a pretty conservative Christian, and I have all sorts of non-Christian friends. I would not expect non-Christians to accept Christian morality.

 

Similarly, my gay friends don't share my religious beliefs about homosexuality.

 

If my friends had to agree with me on everything, I wouldn't have any friends.

[MamaSheep]

I think part of the problem here is that some of the terminology is a little cloudy. There is little agreement about what it means to "be Christian". I would say that if by being Christian you mean believing in Christ as Savior and sincerely endeavoring to live by His teachings to the best of one's understanding, then yes I think anyone can think pretty much anything is ok and be a Christian--but that doesn't mean their understanding of Christ's teachings is perfect or that their beliefs and/or practices are in harmony with His desires for them. I think people who have errors of understanding are definitely still "Christian" in this sense, whether it's an error regarding the nature and character of God, or the importance of baptism, or any other issue.

 

If by "Christian" you mean someone who is "saved", well I suppose that would necessitate a discussion of what it means to be "saved" in the first place, which is a whole other conversation, so for the sake of this discussion I'll just say that I think the status of a person's relationship with God is really between that individual and Christ, and I am not in a position ever to judge any specific individual's status with God regardless of the issue in question.

 

Then there's the problem of defining "homosexuality" and what it means for homosexuality to be "ok". If by homosexuality you mean the state or condition of feeling sexually attracted to a member of the same sex, then no, I don't think it's a sin, and I think a homosexual person can absolutely be in a state of good standing with God.

 

If you mean ACTING on those feelings by engaging in sexual activity on any level with a member of the same sex, I think God has been pretty clear that this behavior is not acceptable to Him, and that a person who engaged in this sort of behavior would not be in good standing with God until he or she repented of such, whether that person was "naturally" homosexual in inclination, or a "naturally" heterosexual person playing around to see what it's like. It's not the "sexual orientation" that is the problem, it's the behavior.

 

I believe that human life is sacred, and that both the power to take life and the power to give life are heavy responsibilities to carry, and are attached to serious moral consequences if used improperly. I believe that God has given guidelines as to how both of these powers should be used. I believe that God's instruction regarding the power to give life is that it is to be exercised only between a man and a woman who have entered into the mutual commitment of marriage, and who will cherish the life that may be brought into the world through their actions and support each other in the raising of their children. I believe that it is displeasing to God when the power to give life, and that which pertains to it, is used frivolously or recklessly, made light of, mocked, used to hurt or abuse another person, sold for money, exploited for self-gratification, turned into swear words, or otherwise desecrated. And I think it displeases God regardless of the person's beliefs about what he or she is doing--the level and nature of culpability may vary due to the person's intent, but I do not think it's ok with God under any circumstances to misuse sexuality. And I think that misuse of sexuality even within marriage is offensive to God. Also, sexuality is about more than just procreation. My belief is that it's not only actual sexual intercourse that is included in this sacred domain, but also the other romantic behaviors that lead up to it, and which support a proper closeness between husband and wife. All of that is sacred, and I am convinced that improper use of ANY of it is displeasing to God because ALL of it is related to the sanctity of the power to give life. Playing around with sex is somewhat akin, in my mind, to playing around with a gun. In one case life may be unintentionally or thoughtlessly taken. In the other case life may be unintentionally or thoughtlessly given. Either way, it's serious stuff.

 

Another aspect of this, for me, is that I believe that the idea that mankind, both male and female, were created in God's image, is intended to be understood very literally. The creation of mankind was not complete until there was a man and a woman joined by God in marriage, and this is part of what I believe about the "image of God"--that it includes both the masculine and the feminine harmoniously united. To me, marriage is much more than an affirmation of love between two people, more than a societal acknowledgement of two people's exclusive relationship, more than a religious legitimization of a sexual relationship. To me, it's more than just the joining of one male person to one female person. It's hard to put into words, but to me a "real" marriage is one in which the spark of masculine divinity in a man, and the spark of feminine divinity in a woman join together in a synergistic union that creates a new entity that includes both the man and the woman, but is greater than the sum of its parts. The union of the two is in the image of God, and is connected to God, and God shares His creative power with this new entity. (As an aside, I know there is a common objection that not all heterosexual married couples are even capable of reproducing due to various fertility issues and whatnot. Please understand that to me, a "real" marriage is an eternal thing, not limited to this life and the limitations we experience here, and I believe that procreation continues in the life to come--for those who have developed the kind of synergistic union I'm trying to describe here. So to me, an infertile heterosexual couple can still work on developing a true, lasting, eternal marriage and look forward to procreation in the life to come, when they will receive resurrected bodies in which imperfections have been corrected. Their infertility is a temporary inconvenience (and yes, I have fertility issues myself so I know "inconvenience" might easily qualify for understatement of the century), even if it is life-long. The same is not true of homosexual couples whose infertility lies in the fact that they are both the same sex, not in a physical imperfection.) Why should procreation even come into the picture? Because that is what sexuality IS. It's the power to procreate, along with all the "appendages" (for lack of a better word in my brain at the moment) that go along with it--the emotional relationship, the physical relationship, the actual body parts involved--all of it is part of a whole, and the whole is procreative in nature. And it's holy in nature. And my belief is that one of the reasons a homosexual relationship is offensive to God is because it can only ever be an impotent counterfeit of that synergistic union of masuline and feminine that is the image of God and through which man can participate with God in the holy act of Creation. No matter how committed, or how loving, or how devoted to each other the couple is, no matter how close the counterfeit comes to the "real" thing, it is still only ever an immitation. A "false" image of God.

 

I also believe that God gives all of us challenges and weaknesses and areas in which we will have longings that we may not be able to indulge in this life. I think the reason for this is to test us, and those around us, as well as to make us really think about things that we, as individuals, need to think about in order to grow into what He knows we can ultimately become, and to grow in the directions that our individual spirits need to grow. But I believe He ALSO gives us moral agency to CHOOSE whether we will participate in his plan for us. He won't force us against our will (though He may strongly encourage us). Being "naturally" homosexual might be a challenge. ACTING on that aspect in an appropriate, or inappropriate manner, is a CHOICE. Being "naturally" heterosexual brings its own challenges and choices, though they may be slightly different in nature. A person may not be able to choose his or her sexual orientation, but for the most part we are free to choose our lifestyles.

 

However, all that said, I also believe very strongly that even if a person is openly and flagrantly behaving in ways of which I disapprove, it is still deeply wrong for me (or anyone else) to mock, belittle, harrass, abuse, or otherwise mistreat that person. For that reason I am strongly in favor of laws that protect homosexual individuals' civil rights regardless of their behavior (unless, of course, that behavior is otherwise illegal). Also, we live in a pluralistic society and I believe that God wants me to be tolerant of others whose beliefs differ from my own. Homosexual couples are part of the reality of our society, and they deserve to have the same legal protections that every other citizen enjoys, and for that reason I am in favor of the idea of legal civil unions for homosexual couples, such that the rights of the partners are spelled out and upheld by the community. I am not in favor of calling these unions "marriage", because as I said earlier, I believe marriage is a very specific kind of union, which can by definition not be formed between two people of the same sex, and making it illegal to believe as I do is also unfair. I think traditional marriage and the traditional family have made important contributions as the fundamental unity of society and are worthy of being preserved (yes, even though the institution is abused by some people--to me the solution to that is to institute measures to minimize the abuses, not to do away with the institution altogether). It seems to me that we should be able to build a new institution alongside it, in our modern secular society, without unduly disrupting or "replacing" it, just as we should be able to put up a new strip mall on a piece of land that is not already designated as a historical monument.

 

And....I think that's about all I have to say on this tonight.

[Mommy22alyns]

Is it possible? Yes indeed. There are whole denominations that don't have a problem with gays. I attended such a church for quite a time and am still friends with several people including the pastor now. (Yes, I was the token straight person there!)

[Hope in God]

It would seem strangely sadistic, though, in this version of god, that he would make his creation a certain way and then deny them the ability to be loved in a romantic relationship. Same sex attraction is not a thorn in their side and should never be compared with mental illness or addiciton. :glare:

 

:lol:I guess men could also say that God is cruel for making so many attractive women and only letting them choose one. Why can't they sleep with other attracive women if the women are willing? It is not hurting any body. They are just expressing their love for all the beautiful women. Why limit love?

[BigMamaBird]

:iagree:

MamaSheep, you said it all, much more eloquently than I ever could. That's exactly how I feel.

[6packofun]

They are all things that people can be born with that can explain a tendancy towards particular sinful behavior--above and beyond just being human, of course. My point is that just because one is born that way doesn't mean that our actions are out of our control and under the control of that "thorn". I suffer from depression, always have, it's a brain chemistry thing for me and yet, God doesn't allow me to use some excuse that "He made me that way" to accept it as normal, OK and then sin--and trust me, it's all too easy for me, in that state, to do just that. That's what those things have in common, not that all jealous people are mentally ill or that all gay people are alcoholics. :confused:

 

I'm curious if people think that God made everyone "perfect just as they are" and if so, why is anyone being helped with or treated for or asked to change ANYTHING?

[kalanamak]

 

If my friends had to agree with me on everything, I wouldn't have any friends.

 

And, you'd have to worry what would happen if either of you changed!

[Hope in God]

I feel that it is all about faith. Do you believe God to be true when he says that homosexuality is an abomination. Do you believe that he, being God, would know (i.e. do you question his intellegence on the matter?) and do you believe that he, being God, has mankind's best interest in heart (i.e. do you question his intentions?)?

 

If one believes that God is both smart as well as good then how could they disagree with God's words on this?

 

A person's faith is evidenced by their actions and what they belive about God is clearly seen.

[kalanamak]

. Marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman. The end.

.

 

My marriage is no such thing. It is a legal arrangement. We happen to be a man and a woman, but it is not a covenant by any definition I could just look up.

 

I like the quip about marriage being a friendship recognized by the police.:D

[UnsinkableKristen]

 

I like the quip about marriage being a friendship recognized by the police.:D

 

I absolutely LOVE this!!

[WishboneDawn]

I feel that it is all about faith. Do you believe God to be true when he says that homosexuality is an abomination. Do you believe that he, being God, would know (i.e. do you question his intellegence on the matter?) and do you believe that he, being God, has mankind's best interest in heart (i.e. do you question his intentions?)?

 

If one believes that God is both smart as well as good then how could they disagree with God's words on this?

 

A person's faith is evidenced by their actions and what they belive about God is clearly seen.

 

I think you're assuming fellow Christians hold the same view of the Bible that you do. Many don't believe the Bible is literally God's Word. For instance, I believe the Word of God is Jesus and the Bible is the witness to that Word but also a source of many very human voices.

 

With your view of the Bible, I suppose your conclusion would be consistent. It would not necessarily be consistent with mine.

[WishboneDawn]

My marriage is no such thing. It is a legal arrangement. We happen to be a man and a woman, but it is not a covenant by any definition I could just look up.

 

I like the quip about marriage being a friendship recognized by the police.:D

 

A Christian marriage IS a covenant. The conditions are not dependent on the other party upholding their own end of the bargain. A secular marriage however, is most definitely not as evidenced by liberal divorce policies and pre-nuptials agreements. Secular marriages are also much older then Christian ones. The early Christian church took awhile to get in on the whole marriage thing.

 

I tend to think this is why any church has the right to determie who they marry but when it comes to state sanctioned marriages they should keep their noses out of the matter.

[SeekingHim77]

I believe God's word is true. If He calls it sin then far be it from me to excuse it.

 

Though all people do sin, Christians shouldn't willfully, continually engage in sin. True repentance means turning away from my sin-not asking for forgiveness when I know I will (by choice) engage in said activity again.

 

We all have different temptations to overcome. God is good and He will always provide a way out of sin. His Spirit will always supply the strength we need to change. We are new creations in Christ and are to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

 

I don't "try to save" anyone. I will more than gladly share my faith with anyone who is interested but I don't push my beliefs on anyone just as I don't want anyone to push their beliefs on me. Besides, only God saves.

 

Homosexuals deserve to be treated with all the respect that any other person deserves-not because they are homosexual-not in spite of their homosexuality but because they are human and created in God's image just as we all are.

 

We should treat others like we want to be treated-all others. :001_smile:

[JulieH]

I believe God's word is true. If He calls it sin then far be it from me to excuse it.

 

Though all people do sin, Christians shouldn't willfully, continually engage in sin. True repentance means turning away from my sin-not asking for forgiveness when I know I will (by choice) engage in said activity again.

 

We all have different temptations to overcome. God is good and He will always provide a way out of sin. His Spirit will always supply the strength we need to change. We are new creations in Christ and are to walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

 

I don't "try to save" anyone. I will more than gladly share my faith with anyone who is interested but I don't push my beliefs on anyone just as I don't want anyone to push their beliefs on me. Besides, only God saves.

 

Homosexuals deserve to be treated with all the respect that any other person deserves-not because they are homosexual-not in spite of their homosexuality but because they are human and created in God's image just as we all are.

 

We should treat others like we want to be treated-all others. :001_smile:

 

Very well put!!

[Ipsey]

:lol:I guess men could also say that God is cruel for making so many attractive women and only letting them choose one. Why can't they sleep with other attracive women if the women are willing? It is not hurting any body. They are just expressing their love for all the beautiful women. Why limit love?

 

But it's not funny at all. It's incredibly sad and mean-spirited.

Homosexuals, according to the Bible can never, ever have a meaningful fulfilling sexual experience.

Heterosexuals can. . . so long as they can find someone to marry.

 

Homosexuals. Never. Never.

 

Not if they find someone compatible. Not if they find the love of their life.

 

No one. Ever.

 

They are condemned to a sexless, partnerless life from their birth.

 

How sad!

 

I will not laugh. I will rather weep for those poor men and women who are so cowed and frightened by religion as to live their lives alone beseeching their god to change them so they, too, can be loved.

 

Fie on it!

[amey311]

:lol:I guess men could also say that God is cruel for making so many attractive women and only letting them choose one. Why can't they sleep with other attracive women if the women are willing? It is not hurting any body. They are just expressing their love for all the beautiful women. Why limit love?

 

There are plenty of people who choose to live this way. I have a friend in a long term (7+ years) commited 3 person polyamorous relationship.

 

This is one of the many things I'd like to thank SCOTUS for - what consenting adults do is the business of those consenting adults.

 

DH and I have joked that we would warmly welcome a wife who liked to clean and had some kind of income. :lol:

[phathui5]

accept and believe that homose*uality is ok?

 

 

IOW, if you have friends that lead this lifestyle do you feel you need to save them from sin? Or can you just be friends with them without any judgement?

 

While I do think that homosexuality is a sin, I don't think that it's any worse than any other sin and I don't think that it's my job to save them from their lifestyle. I think the biggest concern is them needing Jesus and that it's God's place to convict them of their sin, not mine.

[astrid]

I will not laugh. I will rather weep for those poor men and women who are so cowed and frightened by religion as to live their lives alone beseeching their god to change them so they, too, can be loved.

 

Fie on it!

 

Or who take their own life out of despondency and despair.

Or worse, those who are brutalized and left to die as Matthew Shepard was, simply because of his sexual orientation.

 

How utterly senseless and cruel.

 

astrid

[Ipsey]

Or who take their own life out of despondency and despair.

Or worse, those who are brutalized and left to die as Matthew Shepard was, simply because of his sexual orientation.

 

How utterly senseless and cruel.

 

astrid

 

I was in Fort Collins that night, watching the vigil over M. Shepard.

Breaks my heart to think about it.

[SeekingHim77]

I'm truly amazed that some people think this thread is sad or see hatred in any of the posts (at least the ones I've read). I think it's a very civilized conversation. We all have the right to our own opinions/beliefs.

 

Christians are commanded to love, to treat others like they want to be treated, to share the gospel. Never are we commanded to hurt, kill or humiliate someone because they disagree with us. The hatred, the killing, the humiliation towards homosexuals (and anyone else who lives a lifestyle that the Bible states is sinful) is not from true Christians. I think this discussion is evidence that true Christians would never behave in such a manner.

 

If I say being a drunkard is a sin, noone is going to accuse me of hate mongering. If I say fornication is a sin, I'm not going to be accused of it either. Why is the hate mongering card pulled out only when Christians call homosexuality a sin?

 

While I don't have any close homesexual friends, I do have homosexual acquaintances and I treat them with the same love and respect that I extend to all people.

[Ipsey]

I'm truly amazed that some people think this thread is sad or see hatred in any of the posts (at least the ones I've read). I think it's a very civilized conversation. We all have the right to our own opinions/beliefs.

 

Christians are commanded to love, to treat others like they want to be treated, to share the gospel. Never are we commanded to hurt, kill or humiliate someone because they disagree with us. The hatred, the killing, the humiliation towards homosexuals (and anyone else who lives a lifestyle that the Bible states is sinful) is not from true Christians. I think this discussion is evidence that true Christians would never behave in such a manner.

 

If I say being a drunkard is a sin, noone is going to accuse me of hate mongering. If I say fornication is a sin, I'm not going to be accused of it either. Why is the hate mongering card pulled out only when Christians call homosexuality a sin?

 

While I don't have any close homesexual friends, I do have homosexual acquaintances and I treat them with the same love and respect that I extend to all people.

 

If you are referring to my post, perhaps you can read it again. I am not saying this thread is sad, though I can't stop you from inferring it.

 

Please re-read and you can see what I think is sad.

 

You don't think it's sad?

 

Maybe not. Maybe that just makes it easier to see gays as sinners than people who want to be loved and share love as anyone else.

 

That's not the same as being a drunkard.

 

Wanting consenting, mutual love. . . not a sin!

 

For most people.

 

Also, please see "No True Scotsman Fallacy" on Google. Sorry, some "True Christians" do terrible things, including humiliate and abuse gays. It's amazing how Christians are always willing to say "we're sinners, but we're forgiven" but keep saying that other people who commit cruelties can't actually be Christians.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Ipsey
No True Scotsmas

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

But it's not funny at all. It's incredibly sad and mean-spirited.

Homosexuals, according to the Bible can never, ever have a meaningful fulfilling sexual experience.

Heterosexuals can. . . so long as they can find someone to marry.

 

Homosexuals. Never. Never.

 

Not if they find someone compatible. Not if they find the love of their life.

 

No one. Ever.

 

They are condemned to a sexless, partnerless life from their birth.

 

How sad!

 

I will not laugh. I will rather weep for those poor men and women who are so cowed and frightened by religion as to live their lives alone beseeching their god to change them so they, too, can be loved.

 

Fie on it!

:iagree:IMHO God would be cruel to create humans who are born to desire the same sex and expect them to be celebate in order not to commit the so-called sin of homosexual relations:(.

 

I believe God is a loving God. Does not God know what he has created? If God is all-knowing, then God would know that man would be imperfect and sin. This is also why I do not believe that God would condemn imperfect beings to eternal hell. Instead I like to believe that the likes of Hitler would take a very, very, very long time to reach heaven.

 

I do not believe that gay relations in the context of loving, committed relationships are sinful.

[astrid]

 

If I say being a drunkard is a sin, noone is going to accuse me of hate mongering. If I say fornication is a sin, I'm not going to be accused of it either. Why is the hate mongering card pulled out only when Christians call homosexuality a sin?

 

Christian communities are not standing around at public events holding placards that say "God Hates Drunks" and "Die, Fornicators, Die!"

 

Go ahead, write them off as "those crazy Westboro lunatics." But deep down inside, I'd hazard to guess that some folks don't think they're so crazy when it comes to their sentiments about gays.

 

 

 

astrid

[Hope in God]

But it's not funny at all. It's incredibly sad and mean-spirited.

Homosexuals, according to the Bible can never, ever have a meaningful fulfilling sexual experience.

Heterosexuals can. . . so long as they can find someone to marry.

 

Homosexuals. Never. Never.

 

Not if they find someone compatible. Not if they find the love of their life.

 

No one. Ever.

 

They are condemned to a sexless, partnerless life from their birth.

 

How sad!

 

I will not laugh. I will rather weep for those poor men and women who are so cowed and frightened by religion as to live their lives alone beseeching their god to change them so they, too, can be loved.

 

Fie on it!

 

My intention was not to be mean spirited at all and I'm sorry if you read it that way.

 

I was trying to show that everybody has some sort of desire that they would be wise to not fulfill. I don't believe that a person will absolutely die if they do not have sex. There are people that are in less than ideal marriages (sexwise and in other ways) who choose to stay with their spouse rather than moving to a more gratifying relationship. Why do they do this. I guess that they do not view their temporary satisfaction as being more important than their goal of being pleasing to God.

 

This life is very, very short and to live for the here and now when it is so temporary shows a lack of vision.

 

And for record, It is tragic when people brutalize others that do not share their views. Historically, Christians have not been stragers to persecution and martyrdom. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

[SeekingHim77]

I wasn't necessarily just responding to your statement. I think many others here have said similiar things.

 

I didn't say being homosexual is the same as being a drunkard. I was simply making the point that calling a behaviour sin does not mean that I hate the person engaging in said behaviour.

 

I'm also not saying that I dreamed up the idea that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible, which I believe to be true, calls it a sin. I don't choose what is a sin and what isn't, thankfully. I simply choose whether or not I believe the Bible.

[SeekingHim77]

Christian communities are not standing around at public events holding placards that say "God Hates Drunks" and "Die, Fornicators, Die!"

 

Go ahead, write them off as "those crazy Westboro lunatics." But deep down inside, I'd hazard to guess that some folks don't think they're so crazy when it comes to their sentiments about gays.

 

 

 

astrid

 

Wow! That's a huge leap in logic. I think they're crazy. I don't know anyone who is truly a Christian who doesn't think they're crazy.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm truly amazed that some people think this thread is sad or see hatred in any of the posts (at least the ones I've read). I think it's a very civilized conversation. We all have the right to our own opinions/beliefs.

 

Christians are commanded to love, to treat others like they want to be treated, to share the gospel. Never are we commanded to hurt, kill or humiliate someone because they disagree with us. The hatred, the killing, the humiliation towards homosexuals (and anyone else who lives a lifestyle that the Bible states is sinful) is not from true Christians. I think this discussion is evidence that true Christians would never behave in such a manner.

 

If I say being a drunkard is a sin, noone is going to accuse me of hate mongering. If I say fornication is a sin, I'm not going to be accused of it either. Why is the hate mongering card pulled out only when Christians call homosexuality a sin?

 

While I don't have any close homesexual friends, I do have homosexual acquaintances and I treat them with the same love and respect that I extend to all people.

 

To be fair, it's generally Christian groups that oppose secular initiatives to extend rights and protections to homosexuals. It's generally Christian groups that raise the "gay agenda" spectre and equate acceptance of homosexuality with moral decay which does promote fear and often hate.

 

We, as Christians, have a lot to account for so it shouldn't be surprising that some will call us on the issue. It's probably a hard line to ask people to accept to then say, "I do think it's a sin but I love the gay people I know." But does that mean we don't give our money to groups that exclude gay people (like the HSLDA) or work to prevent initiatives in secular government to extend certain rights (like marriage) to LBGT people?

 

I can understand some of the cynicism. We talk the talk here. Does that love for our fellow humans who happen to be gay extend to how we live our lives politically and socially?

[astrid]

Wow! That's a huge leap in logic. I think they're crazy. I don't know anyone who is truly a Christian who doesn't think they're crazy.

 

Respectfully, just because you personally don't know any Christians who don't think they're crazy doesn't mean that they don't exist.

 

And really, it matters not when the media covers them. If a gay teen, perhaps most especially a gay teen in a conservative Christian environment, is made to feel shunned and unworthy of love because of something that he/she cannot change, the damage is done.

 

astrid

[Scarlett]

Exactly but with one clarification (and this is often the sticking point)... As you mentioned, we all struggle with overcoming our sinful natures. But to be openly and unrepentantly gay (as in you don't think you are doing anything wrong, gay and proud, etc) is where the division comes in. I would feel the same about someone who is openly and unrepentantly committing adultery, etc. I would still love them and continue praying for them, for the strength to overcome. Just as I pray for strength to overcome my own sinful nature.

 

:iagree:

[WishboneDawn]

I wasn't necessarily just responding to your statement. I think many others here have said similiar things.

 

I didn't say being homosexual is the same as being a drunkard. I was simply making the point that calling a behaviour sin does not mean that I hate the person engaging in said behaviour.

 

I'm also not saying that I dreamed up the idea that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible, which I believe to be true, calls it a sin. I don't choose what is a sin and what isn't, thankfully. I simply choose whether or not I believe the Bible.

 

Which is a loaded statement in and of itself as many Christians would have very different views of what "believe the Bible" really means. :D

[Hope in God]

Also, please see "No True Scotsman Fallacy" on Google. Sorry, some "True Christians" do terrible things, including humiliate and abuse gays. It's amazing how Christians are always willing to say "we're sinners, but we're forgiven" but keep saying that other people who commit cruelties can't actually be Christians.

 

You are right that some Christians do terrible things. Some non-Christians do terrible things as well. Some homeschoolers do terrible things and some people with their children in school also do terrible things.

 

I cannot take responsiblity for every Christian's actions but I can take responsibility for mine. Likewise, I can't take responsibility for every homeschoolers actions... and so on. Grouping ALL Christians in one lump seems to be similar to what you are taking offense to with the grouping of homosexuals, is it not?

[astrid]

EXACTLY!!!

Thank you, Dawn.

 

astrid

[SeekingHim77]

Respectfully, just because you personally don't know any Christians who don't think they're crazy doesn't mean that they don't exist.

 

And really, it matters not when the media covers them. If a gay teen, perhaps most especially a gay teen in a conservative Christian environment, is made to feel shunned and unworthy of love because of something that he/she cannot change, the damage is done.

 

astrid

 

I didn't say they don't exist. It just seemed that you were trying to imply that it is a common thing. I don't believe that at all. Their are nominal Christians blowing up abortion clinics and boycotting the funerals of those who fight for our freedom. That shouldn't reflect on this perfectly civilized-even loving discussion anymore than we should start throwing out generalizations about the homosexual community.

[Julie in Austin]

 

Also, please see "No True Scotsman Fallacy" on Google.

 

I looked this up, never having heard of it before. Here's the first line of the wiki entry:

 

For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman.

 

:lol:

[WishboneDawn]

You are right that some Christians do terrible things. Some non-Christians do terrible things as well. Some homeschoolers do terrible things and some people with their children in school also do terrible things.

 

I cannot take responsiblity for every Christian's actions but I can take responsibility for mine. Likewise, I can't take responsibility for every homeschoolers actions... and so on. Grouping ALL Christians in one lump seems to be similar to what you are taking offense to with the grouping of homosexuals, is it not?

 

Okay, to a point.

 

As a Christian I am not solely concerned with my responsibility as an individual.

 

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

 

There's a call to community implicit in Christianity. To me that's a call to be responsible to and responsible for that community. I put that together with the Samaritan story and I think we should not simply be talking about how loving we are as individuals but we should be holding other Christians to account for their hateful actions.

 

I see a LOT of talk about how those Christians aren't true Christians or those are just a few. But then the talk stops. I don't think that's where our obligations end. If Fred Phelps shows up with his "God Hates Fags" signs where are the local churches, conservative and liberal alike with their "God Loves You" signs? Why are we not extending love to the gay people affected (and even Phelps for that matter - THERE'S a challenge!). We can't afford to distance ourselves from people like him. It makes us look petty to those outside and it shirks that communal responsibility that's intrinsic to Christianity.

 

I DO applaud those who despite their view that homosexuality is a sin choose to love their gay friends and family. But as Christians that's the very least of what we're called to do.

[SeekingHim77]

Which is a loaded statement in and of itself as many Christians would have very different views of what "believe the Bible" really means. :D

 

Yes-many scriptures are hard to undersand but I think it's pretty clear on this issue.

[WishboneDawn]

I didn't say they don't exist. It just seemed that you were trying to imply that it is a common thing. I don't believe that at all. Their are nominal Christians blowing up abortion clinics and boycotting the funerals of those who fight for our freedom. That shouldn't reflect on this perfectly civilized-even loving discussion anymore than we should start throwing out generalizations about the homosexual community.

 

I think it should. They didn't pop up in a vacuum. They came out of Christian backgrounds. What are we doing as Christians, how are we failing, if we're producing people like that, however rare you might think they are?

[Ipsey]

I looked this up, never having heard of it before. Here's the first line of the wiki entry:

 

For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman.

 

:lol:

 

HAHAHAH! Oh, dear. I hope this doesn't devolve into a kilt thread. . . . even though.

 

Did you find an explanation of the fallacy? If you put "fallacy" in there, I bet it'll come up.

[Parker Martin]

Just a point about Phelps:

 

He doesn't come from a Christian background, he comes from a greed background. The whole thing is a scam. They apply for permits for protests and sue for a settlement whenever they're denied. It's a business. That's why protest all sorts of random things, whatever is most offensive.

[SeekingHim77]

I think it should. They didn't pop up in a vacuum. They came out of Christian backgrounds. What are we doing as Christians, how are we failing, if we're producing people like that, however rare you might think they are?

 

We're producing people like that???????? I don't even know how to respond to this statement.

 

How do we know what kind of background they came from?

[WishboneDawn]

Yes-many scriptures are hard to undersand but I think it's pretty clear on this issue.

 

It's pretty clear on many issues that many very literal and conservative Christians like to ignore.

 

My point was less that the Bible mentioned homosexuality (well, regarding males anyway) and more that "believing the Bible" implies a very literal, God-wrote-it view that many Christians don't subscribe to. I tend to think the human influence is heavy in the Bible. It opens doors to reconsidering the impact of some scripture.

 

I don't really want to get into that. I accept that you think homosexuality is a sin. I don't myself. I just wanted to point out that "believe the Bible" is not a straightforward and trouble-free statement. :)

[Ipsey]

You are right that some Christians do terrible things. Some non-Christians do terrible things as well. Some homeschoolers do terrible things and some people with their children in school also do terrible things.

 

I cannot take responsiblity for every Christian's actions but I can take responsibility for mine. Likewise, I can't take responsibility for every homeschoolers actions... and so on. Grouping ALL Christians in one lump seems to be similar to what you are taking offense to with the grouping of homosexuals, is it not?

 

Fair enough, but here is what a previous poster said,

 

"The hatred, the killing, the humiliation towards homosexuals (and anyone else who lives a lifestyle that the Bible states is sinful) is not from true Christians. I think this discussion is evidence that true Christians would never behave in such a manner."

 

I can't think of a single thread where Christianity is invoked in some violent/scary way where someone doesn't jump in and say "These aren't true Christians!"

 

That's where I was saying the "No True Scotsman Fallacy" was coming into play.

 

Not every Christian does this. I apologize for not being careful enough with my phrasing.

 

I'll try again. Many times, where a Christian does something violent/bad, some Christians will jump up and say, "They aren't true Christians." In fact, it' so common, it's often used as an example of "The No True Scotsman Fallacy"

 

I wish it were true that Christians didn't do vile and dangerous things. But it ain't so. I wish True Christians--or the "Really True True Christians" could really see that.