X-post: AAS and Learning Difficulty frustrations

[sixpence1978]

My DD is 8 and a struggling student. She is nearing the end of Vision Therapy treatment, which hasn't helped that much. She is stuck at step 10 in AAS 2, and writing more than a couple of sentences is like torture to her.

 

We have begun the process of testing her for dyslexia.

 

She can segment her words effortlessly. She can recite all the spelling rules and phonograms she has learned. She can spell as long as the word is a phonetically spelled short vowel word. She is also getting better with the silent -e at the end of a word, but it isn't consistent. We have been working on that since she was 5. Remembering whether it is a c, k, or ck takes nearly daily reminding.

 

I find myself not knowing how to teach her. Do I just keep doing the same lesson and words over and over again? By the end of the week she would have them memorized, only to be forgotten again. I remember somebody had modified AAS to account for overlearning, but can't seem to find that anywhere.

 

She also likes to do anything but pay attention if at all possible during spelling lessons. She'll write the word as big as she can. Or she will fill the board with smiley faces if I start teaching for too long.

 

I just feel stuck sometimes. Her VT exercises take up an hour of our day. Then we do about 30-45 minutes of math. Writing, phonics, spelling, and grammar just seem so scattered. I know it isn't terribly important, but cutting out the science, history, or art just makes school not fun for her at all, so it must stay.

 

I'm unsure about whether to continue with AAS, or to look at Apples & Pears or a more thorough OG program. AAS is a good fit for ME (I am loving learning all the things I was never taught). I just don't know if it is a good fit for HER. She is reading on grade level, but still has a hard time reading sounding out unknown words that are longer or have more advanced phonics. I was using AAS to reinforce her phonics work, but learning the sounds of ck and silent -e over and over again aren't what she needs help with.

 

Okay. Sorry this was so long, but I really needed to vent.

[Calendula]

Maybe you can let her play more during spelling. Have her spell problem words with 5 foot letters on your driveway with chalk, or a squirt gun or whatever....then tightrope over the letters. Maybe her smiley faces can have thought bubbles with the words, etc.

[Dobela]

If you are not seeing VT help much, I would back off on that. We could tell dramatic differences quickly for my son.

[PeterPan]

And what is it you're wanting to fix? The VT changes the vision problems. It doesn't solve or create some magic cure for LD's. You can't get out of her what you haven't put in. VT allowed the *6 years* of SWR and dictation and more I had put into her to finally click. It didn't REPLACE those things.

 

1--Does she read? I'm asking, because I can't tell if that's part of your problem. Can she read or are you wanting her reading to improve? My dd learned to read with SWR, but she did it via the words on flashcards (which Sanseri specifies btw) NOT by sounding out. She never would have learned to read via sounding out, and AAS wouldn't have gotten her there. So if reading is the problem, you need to look for a solution for that.

 

2--Did she have actual physical problems that warranted the VT? And have those actual physical problems budged? I'm talking convergence, tracking, depth perception, peripheral vision, etc. You should be able to tell if those things are improving. If those are improving, then the VT is doing something. I can't help if it's not changing the *LD*. Nobody said it would reverse dyslexia. VT improves the actual physical problems that have symptoms that can *affect* the school work.

 

3--Is your eval with a neuropsych? Sounds like she also could have ADD/ADHD issues going on.

 

4--You said writing more than a couple sentences is torture for her. Have you figured out WHY? When that was the case with my dd, it was a combo of the spelling (which more dictation helped with) and hand fatigue (for which we needed OT, turns out she has low muscle tone), and her eyes (the VT helped with that). It wasn't just one thing, and your statement about that concerns me. If the dc has ADD/ADHD issues and/or is complaining of hand fatigue or has strange positioning, etc. you could need an OT evaluation for SPD issues.

 

In general, assuming your VT doc is a good one and that you're actually seeing some shift in the legimately diagnosed physical problems (not the learning problems you had HOPED it would change but the actual physical problems), then I would say you need to finish the VT. Drop the grammar and anything non-essential. Yes, do history. Trim something else to make room for it. Dyslexics are often very good at history, so it's good to spend time on it. :)

 

BTW, if the issue you're wanting to fix is spelling, I'd do more dictation or use the visualization techniques in Freed's "Right-Brained Child in a Left-Brained World."

[sixpence1978]

No, I haven't been relying on VT to cure her problems or do the job of teaching her. We began her letters sounds at age 4 and began Abeka phonics in K. She stalled once long vowel sounds were introduced, so we slowed down a bit, read a lot, did some ETC, and reviewed and reviewed and reviewed. My DH wanted the kids to go to school the next year. She went all the way through Saxon Phonics 1 that year. We brought her home because her teacher was noticing some problems (as had we) and have been trying to take things step by step since then. Last year we kept covering the phonics with AAS, reading, games, and some ETC (doing remedial work in book 3, once again...the long vowels).

 

She began VT last January mainly because we don't know of any ADD or dyslexia in our family, but there are plenty of eye issues. We went to a COVD approved place and she had a slight tracking issue, slight suppression, and horrible visual memory. The first 12 weeks of VT definitely paid off. Her tracking improved, great fixation, etc. The main differences we saw were that she was no longer moving her head while reading, and now enjoyed coloring. All the weeks (20+) after that have been to improve her processing and visual memory, and I'm just not seeing the benefit anymore. And yes, we have been using week after week or exercises to help her visually picture a word, that just doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

 

So to answer your questions:

1. She does read. On grade level too. But she has been reading at this current level for a while now and isn't advancing past that. Sounding out longer words and being able to have the patience to make it through an entire book (not in one sitting) seem to be holding her back. She guesses at words or just plain skips them and thinks she is reading.

 

2. Whoops, answered that above.

 

3. No, we are not yet going to a neuropsych. Our doctor wouldn't recommend one yet. But she is going to a very thorough testing place that tests for visual and auditory processing problems, memory problems, ADD, and dyslexia. She will be getting a 4.5 hour test there. It is our best resource for the time being.

 

4. I have no idea WHY she struggles with writing. That's why I need help. It could be that she loses focus quickly. It could be because she has to sound out every word as she writes it (even simple words that she has written a million times). She has word retrieval problems in speaking, so that also could be an issue. No hand fatigue or strange positions though. Depending on the assignment she could have very nice handwriting (like writing Happy Birthday in a card to her best friend), to poor handwriting.

 

We are literally 2 weeks away from finishing VT. Of course we are going to finish it, and we are trying to finish it with a bang. I just posted this more out of frustration at never really knowing what is going to help or the right way to be teaching her.

 

Sorry I wrote another novel here. DH doesn't understand the struggles and begins to tune out if a vent a bit. Thanks for letting me vent a bit here, it does help me to recollect my thoughts.

[PeterPan]

We hit a wall with the visual processing portion of our VT too, so I understand what you mean. The working memory issues can affect their ability to do everything the VT wants them to.

 

You might want to look into Barton.

 

Are you doing audiobooks with her? My dd never could/would sound out words until we did VT (age 11), so I think her reading clicked because she had this huge log of words in her mind from years of complex audiobooks and read alouds. I'm talking HOURS every day listening to them. So if that's not something you're doing, it would be something to consider. The Lang Fairy Tale books, EB White, Narnia, Little House, that kind of stuff.

 

Vent away. Kids aren't easy to sort out, and no two are alike. The eval will be a good thing for you, because you'll learn more things. I'd encourage you to go ahead and read about ADD and ADHD. You don't have to have a family history for it to show up.

[Paisley Hedgehog]

nm

[sixpence1978]

The funny thing is, she has been given another test for cognitive skills that shows her visual processing to be nearly 2 years above her age. Her logic and reasoning are nearly 4 years better than her age. She tested lowest on working memory, visual memory, and auditory memory.

 

She does LOVE listening to audio books. She does it at least once a day. And she loves to listen to me read. Books, videos, and music are all things she could do all day long.

 

I am very glad for the first portion of VT. There were definitely some issues (though smallish) that needed some work. The remaining part of VT I'm iffy about. We were told she would probably finish early. Her evaluations are fine as well, but because she is still struggling with spelling and attention, they keep her going. I haven't been convinced that VT helping there at all.

 

I have also been reading all the posts about ADD as well. She isn't hyperactive and really all the impulsive, but inattention could definitely be a problem. She does focus better after a nature walk. She usually does well on all the phonemic awareness activities I do with her, but she does get lost in quick conversations and doesn't like certain sounds like the toilet flushing.

 

Thanks for all the recommendations and support.

[PeterPan]

Ok, let me get this straight. The VT place wants you to keep going--despite the tests showing she's done with what they can treat--because her spelling and attention are poor? Are they doing PACE? I mean there *is* an aspect to VT that *can* help with working memory, executive function, etc. Are you paying for this or insurance? We hit a wall where we knew she wasn't making any progress, that her working memory and attention issues were making it harder for her to go forward in doing the application stuff the VT (for processing) wanted. We stopped (or as they put it, paused) by mutual agreement. Sounds like you're at that point.

 

Have you thought about an OT eval? Sensory stuff and working memory, attention, etc. are closely linked. Our OT eval opened up a lot and gave us a lot of practical ways to work through things. It showed issues I didn't even realize were there. Just for a taste, you could read "The Out of Sync Child" and see if anything sticks.

 

On the visual stuff, I'll throw some things out. Dd has always been very good with spatial things, decorating, that sort of thing. She loves the geometry in the math books, etc. I *think* she's probably VSL. So you get this weird contradiction where you can have someone who is VSL but who wasn't able to DO the VSL stuff fully without the VT. So they wanted to be a visual learner, but their visual was so weak they flip over to auditory processing (which on them is stronger at that point, even if it will turn out to be their non-preferred modality). Does that make any sense? That's why you get this contradiction. And odds are, with scores like those, your dd could also be gifted. So you have someone who is gifted but can't read, gifted but dyslexic, ie. 2E.

 

Freed in his book "Right-Brained Child in a Left-Brained World" maintains that "all" (and yes, I think that's a pretty emphatic generalization, but whatever) kids with ADD and ADHD are VSL. Search the boards here for VSL or google it. I really wasn't open to the concept, but it really begins to explain things with my dd. And like I said, it's utterly contradictory for them to be so bright but struggle, so visual but still having problems or preferring auditory. And that's why.

 

Once I concluded she needed the visual, we changed a lot of things. When doing SWR-style dictation or AAS or what have you, I would have her read things back. I put her on the computer with spelling programs, again trying to have her see things correctly. Freed says to have them memorize the word visually then use that visualization to respell it backwards. She wigged out when I suggested it (working memory fears, my guess), but I still want to try it on her. I'm just saying that's why you get these contradictions.

 

The other thing I've never sorted out in my mind is why she tested very, VERY well on the visual processing books I used with her when she was younger (say age 5) and tested age 2 for certain aspects (was it visual memory? I forget) when we went to the COVD doc years later. I've never known if those were different categories or evidence of a degrading over time or inaccuracies of one system over another or what. I'm just saying your contradictions don't surprise me. But I would feel free at least to pause the VT and pursue some other stuff. Sounds like they're getting a bit zealous. Kids are onions with lots of layers, and you want to peel away, not just hope that the one you're working on is "it" and going to solve everything. You've mentioned the attention issue quite a bit and already know she has working memory issues. I'd basically search the boards and get lists of books on ADD, ADHD, executive function, etc. and start reading.

[RamonaQ]

I would look into phonological processing-- see if she can pass Susan Barton's phonemic awareness test.

[rbk mama]

I highly recommend this site for help in determining if dyslexia is the issue:

 

http://www.dys-add.com/

 

This is Susan Barton's website. She has some really helpful videos that you can download about both dyslexia and dysgraphia. We ended up getting thorough testing for our DS recently, but the Barton videos were enough to convince us three years ago of dyslexia and dysgraphia in our DS.

 

We were using AAS for this DS but stalled out somewhere in the 3rd level, and it was not addressing his reading issues enough (it is after all a spelling program). So this year we began using the Wilson reading system, and I love it so far. So does DS. Honestly I think it was a mistake to try to rely on AAS for everything, as good of a program as it is. For us, we needed something else to specifically address the reading. (When we first started AAS it was extremely helpful, and I paired it up with SPIRE decodable readers and some ETC books. But at some point we needed more help and stalled out.) What you describe - skipping words and not being able to sound out longer words, is something DS did all the time. Wilson has been awesome so far in helping him segment larger words for both reading and spelling and giving lots and lots of practice reading.