Is Analytical Grammar correct here?

[preoccupied]

I posted about this in another thread, but wanted some feedback of my own without derailing the thread.

 

I have just started working with AG. I've found several errors and I'm only on exercise 3! I wrote the company about it and the reply was that I was wrong and they were right...here are the examples:

 

"The boy's family were..." I think it should be "was," but they insist that it is correct.

 

"In 1818 the decision..." I think there's a comma missing after 1818

 

"During the twentieth century flag etiquette received..." I think a comma should be after "century."

 

"In the United States the anniversary..." I think a comma should be after "states"

 

" In 1942 the United States...." I think a comma should be after the date.

 

Anyway, when I wrote the email, I got a quick, somewhat defensive note telling me that they were correct and giving links to prove their points. The links didn't really prove thier points, but I'm wondering what others think of this. Like someone upthread said, this was expensive stuff. I spent nearly $200 for 2 kids.

 

I'm considering scrapping it and trying out easy grammar instead, but I hate to waste money, especially this much.

 

Thanks

[corbie]

The boy's family were.... is correct. If you replace "family" with the pronoun "they", it makes sense.

 

You don't need a comma after a year - that covers two examples

 

Commas after clauses are, I believe, optional?

 

Maybe someone with more experience in grammar will pipe it....

 

:lurk5:

[nansk]

I agree with the OP and I would put commas after clauses.

 

What should 'The boy's family' be replaced with 'They'? Why not replace 'family' with 'it'?

[preoccupied]

Thank you both for your opinions on it. Here's the link that they sent to me to prove that they were correct.

 

http://www.chompchomp.com/terms/collectivenoun.htm

 

In the sentence I used as an example, it said "The boy's family were happy..." so they were all doing the same thing.

 

Grammar is so tricky! It just really felt wrong to me when I read those sentences and I've always considered myself to be pretty strong in grammar. I'm not perfect though and would prefer to learn the correct way than to hold on to something that is wrong.

 

Thanks again:)

"The boy's family were..." I think it should be "was," but they insist that it is correct.

 

Thanks

 

That money might be better spent just listening to the free Grammar Girl podcasts -- in her episode on "Colllective Nouns", she discusses this. Collective nouns, like "family", can be either singular or plural, depending on whether the group is acting as one unit, or as independent members. So, it depends on what's after the ellipsis in your sample sentence.

 

ETA: I didn't see your followup before I posted. I find it odd that the company cites some random web site as "proof". I would have preferred a more formal citation to a real grammar book.

Edited September 2, 2011 by GGardner

[preoccupied]

Ooh, I love podcasts. I'll have to listen to that. The sentence was "The boy's family were happy to live in a prosperous country where people could...."

 

I don't want to give the whole sentence just in case it violates any copyright agreement.

[eloquacious]

""Colllective Nouns", she discusses this. Collective nouns, like "family", can be either singular or plural, depending on whether the group is acting as one unit, or as independent members. So, it depends on what's after the ellipsis in your sample sentence."

 

Yes, this is what I was taught.

[nansk]

Grammar is so tricky!

 

This is very true. Even so-called grammar experts don't all agree all the time. The grammar program we use (KISS Grammar) allows alternate explanations for some sentences.

 

BTW, I read the chompchomp article linked above and while I agree with the examples given there, based on those examples and explanation, I would still say that 'family' is acting in a collective manner and so 'was' is the appropriate verb in that sentence.

[TammyB]

There is definitely no comma after ONE prepositional phrase at the beginning of a sentence. A comma is used after two or three prepositional phrases that begin a sentence (that come all in a row...one right after the other). I hope that made sense. I am way too tired to be typing. :)

[Sunshine State Sue]

"In 1818 the decision..." I think there's a comma missing after 1818

 

"During the twentieth century flag etiquette received..." I think a comma should be after "century."

 

"In the United States the anniversary..." I think a comma should be after "states"

 

" In 1942 the United States...." I think a comma should be after the date.

 

Let me address the introductory prepositional phrases first. In Season 3, Comma Rule 5 deals with introductory elements. It teaches to put a comma after two or more introductory prepositional phrases. Using a quick google search, I found Purdue Online Writing Lab (I went to Purdue :D). Here is a bit:

When to Use a Comma

Introductory elements often require a comma, but not always. Use a comma in the following cases:

 

• After an introductory clause. (Does the introductory element have a subject and verb of its own?)

• After a long introductory prepositional phrase or more than one introductory prepositional phrase. (Are there more than five words before the main clause?)

• After introductory verbal phrases, some appositive phrases, or absolute phrases.

• If there is a distinct pause. (When you read the sentence aloud, do you find your voice pausing a moment after the introductory element?) to avoid confusion. (Might a reader have to read the sentence more than once to make sense of it?)

 

 

When Not to Use a Comma

Some introductory elements don't require a comma, and sometimes the subject of a sentence looks like an introductory element but isn't. Do not use a comma in the following cases:

 

• After a brief prepositional phrase. (Is it a single phrase of fewer than five words?)

• After a restrictive (essential) appositive phrase. (See our document on appositives.)

• To separate the subject from the predicate. (See below.)

 

So, at least the Purdue Online Writing Lab agrees with AG. You know, I think these things change over many years. I do not remember being taught this way, and I will incorrectly use a comma after any introductory prepositional phrase myself. But, hey, I've got a degree in math. ;)

 

Wasn't there just a big uproar in the news about some organization who decided that we are no longer to use the final comma in a series before "and"? ex. red, white<no comma> and blue

 

Anyway, when I wrote the email, I got a quick, somewhat defensive note telling me that they were correct and giving links to prove their points. The links didn't really prove thier points, but I'm wondering what others think of this. Like someone upthread said, this was expensive stuff. I spent nearly $200 for 2 kids.

 

I'm considering scrapping it and trying out easy grammar instead, but I hate to waste money, especially this much.

 

We used AG for 6th-7th-8th grade. You may read my review here. I asked many, many question (and found some typos) during those years. Erin was always incredibly helpful and kind. AG was one of the best homeschool purchases I made.

 

I will give some more thought to the was/were thing.

 

HTH!

[Ellie]

You don't need a comma after a year - that covers two examples.

You can't make that a blanket rule. :-)

 

I think all of those comma examples could go either way--comma or no comma. I would tend to use them for the sake of clarity.

 

FTR, it used to be The Law that you wrote dates with commas thusly:

 

"The Declaration of Independence was signed on July 4, 1776, by delegates representing the American colonies."

 

It has become more common not to use the comma after the year, but I think that's an error. If I read the sentence without the pause that a comma implies, it sounds wrong. Confusing. Ack.

[creekmom]

You might want to join the AG yahoo group. If anyone ever has a question, Erin is very quick to respond with an answer/explanation. I've been very impressed with her willingness to help people who've bought the program.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Collective nouns, like "family", can be either singular or plural, depending on whether the group is acting as one unit, or as independent members.

Here is some information about Collective Nouns. To summarize:

Do you use a singular or plural verb to match a collective noun such as team or staff? The answer is, “It depends.â€

If these nouns are acting as a unit, use a singular verb.

Example: The team is heading for practice this afternoon.

If the sentence indicates more individuality, use a plural verb.

Example: The team are eating with their families tonight.

So, the crux of the matter is: Is the family "happy" as a unit or individually. Certainly, it could be argued that emotions are individual. My happiness is not like my sister's happiness. Therefore, the plural verb would be more appropriate.

 

Either way, I wouldn't toss AG because of this issue. It is a clear, straightforward, efficient program.

 

My 2c.

[Spy Car]

:lurk5:

[Spy Car]

Here is some information about Collective Nouns. To summarize:

 

Do you use a singular or plural verb to match a collective noun such as team or staff? The answer is, “It depends.”

If these nouns are acting as a unit, use a singular verb.

Example: The team is heading for practice this afternoon.

If the sentence indicates more individuality, use a plural verb.

Example: The team are eating with their families tonight.

 

So, the crux of the matter is: Is the family "happy" as a unit or individually. Certainly, it could be argued that emotions are individual. My happiness is not like my sister's happiness. Therefore, the plural verb would be more appropriate.

 

Either way, I wouldn't toss AG because of this issue. It is a clear, straightforward, efficient program.

 

My 2c.

 

After chewing on this awhile, I'm feelng generally disproving of Collective Nouns being used with a plural verb for stylistic reasons. The example: "The team are eating with their families tonight" is a perfect example of how unnatural this sort of construction is in English. Far preferable would be: "The team members are eating with their families tonight."

 

In the OPs sentence (The boy's family was/were happy) I would be inclined to go with a collective sense of family and that would make the plural verb sound wrong. Again, if you wanted an "individual sense" of the family members I would add "members." But I am far from the world's greatest grammar maven so I will keep an open mind and :bigear:

 

General point:

 

Erin is a long-time member of this forum. I have never know her to be anything but exceedingly kind and helpful towards people who have grammar questions whether they use AG, or not. She certainly knows her stuff.

 

Bill

Edited September 21, 2011 by Spy Car
Because when one posts on grammar threads, typos are inevitable

[Sunshine State Sue]

General point:

 

Erin is a long-time member of this forum. I have never know her to be anything but exceedingly kind and helpful towards people who have grammar questions whether they use AG, or not. She certainly knows her stuff.

 

Bill

:iagree: