Cub Scouts vs. the nonreligious family

[Jennifer3141]

I've never hired a babysitter. My sister and MIL would be appalled that I didn't call them first. :D

 

 

I'm 150 miles from family so I didn't have a choice. Asking Mom to drive 4 hours so i can run to the grocery store doens't seem quite fair. :D

 

But we have now had the same babysitter for 5 years now. She's a part of the family at this point!

[Jennifer3141]

ETA: When I filled out the paperwork to be a leader for GGs I had to get a police records/sex offenders check, get interviewed and provide references.

 

They did the criminal check. They did an interview.

 

But I know for a fact that they did not check my references. Our local council is in the process of being hostilely absorbed by the state council so I get WHY it didn't happen but I'm not happy that I have checked out my babysitter as a citizen better than our local council checked out ME.

[My3Monkeys]

Also, I don't think anyone brought up the point that Girl Scouts discriminate against MEN! Men are not allowed to be GS leaders, but women have been welcomed into all positions of Boy Scout leadership for many years.

 

I don't think that's true. I've attended leader training with men present. There are more rules for men to follow while camping (toilets for men have to be marked, separate sleeping areas, etc) but from what I know at our council, men can be leaders.

[Tangerine]

If the GS did not specifically say in the trainings/literature that it was fine to substitute "God" with whatever worked for you, then I would agree. I love high church music and liturgy, but can't honestly recite the Nicene Creed, which is why we are no longer Episcopalians. But the GS do indeed specifically give that opportunity to substitute, so IMO, it's not a conflict.

 

Here's what our council's leader handbook says:

http://www.hngirlscouts.org/content_documents/LeaderHandbook09.pdf

Any adult, female or male, who believes in the principles

of Girl Scouts and can serve as a positive role model for girls

can apply to be a Girl Scout leader.....

QUALIFICATIONS:

* Ability and interest to work with girls ages 5-17 and

work well with adults

* Believe in the aims and purposes of the Girl Scout

organization and subscribe to the principles expressed in

the Promise and Law.

* Be willing to abide by the policies and standards of Girl

Scouts, Hornets’ Nest Council and Girl Scouts of the USA

* Register as a member of Girl Scouts of the USA

 

and here's the part about substitutes:

Girl Scouts is open to all girls, ages 5-17, regardless of

race, religion, national origin, physical ability, or socio-economic

factors who:

* accept the Girl Scout Promise and Law (girls may

substitute their own faith’s word in the Promise)

* accept the principles and beliefs of Girl Scouting

* pay yearly membership dues

 

So, the way I read it, girls and leaders are welcome to substitute whatever they see fit,m be that Allah, the Olympians, the Christian version of God, the Jewish version of God, science, etc or remain silent on that part. That's how we handled it on our troop. I don't personally see why one could not with integrity say they were upholding the principles of Girl Scouting (as I read them, that's committing to serving something outside of just one's own self-interest) while not saying "serve God." I like "the good" myself.

 

I don't think that's true. I've attended leader training with men present. There are more rules for men to follow while camping (toilets for men have to be marked, separate sleeping areas, etc) but from what I know at our council, men can be leaders.

 

It looks like you're right, according to the link above.

[My3Monkeys]

Really? Because when I hired a babysitter, I did check her record. Seems like a non-issue to do so. I also checked her references carefully - I know from turning in my GS paperwork as a leader that out local council did NOT do this. They did a criminal check and called it good.

 

I had to give references and they were checked.

[catz]

Ok - I want to give an example on where the BS policies become problematic for me. And this is a true example that is happening to several families I know and am close to right now. Boy scout troops are advertised,promoted, and popular in a public schools. Boys from lesbian families are not welcome. These boys mix with other boys in scouts and want to join, but cannot. Their parents cannot participate. My son went to PS for 2 years and I had people telling me all the time that my oldest should join, but I was not comfortable with the policies. It was "THE THING" to do after school for boys. But yet the tone was religious and not tolerant in an area where there are a fair number of gay and lesbian families.

 

If this were all taking place under the funding and roof of a church or faith community, I have absolutely zero problem with it. It's the waving in the face of the masses, the public funding, and then not allowing participation that is a problem for me.

 

So we started a campfire group, and I agree with whoever said it was a ton of work. We've alleviated some of that this year by requiring each participating family to organize an outing or activity. That has been GREAT! More adults are involved, we're doing more diverse activities, and the work load is spread. We only get together 1-2X a month, and sometimes it's simple (hiking/pick up garbage, sledding and hot chocolate, visiting a nursing home, etc).

Edited August 31, 2011 by kck

[Rivka]

:iagree:Strongly agreed!!!:iagree: If you are not happy about cub scout or boy scout or any organization for that matter, you can join another organization that matches your beliefs or

simply start your own.

 

That's exactly what people have been saying in this thread - that they wouldn't let their child join Cub/Boy Scouts and have joined other organizations instead. And it's led to an enormous outbreak of offendedness and hurt feelings among people who approve of BSA policies.

 

The Boy Scouts have a right to promote their values. And so do people who don't support the Boy Scouts. Just because the BSA is legally free to discriminate, that doesn't provide for a gag order against people who disapprove.

[Lady Florida.]

:iagree:Strongly agreed!!!:iagree:

 

 

If you are not happy about cub scout or boy scout or any organization for that matter, you can join another organization that matches your beliefs or

simply start your own.

 

Many of us have, and we shared that.

 

That's exactly what people have been saying in this thread - that they wouldn't let their child join Cub/Boy Scouts and have joined other organizations instead. And it's led to an enormous outbreak of offendedness and hurt feelings among people who approve of BSA policies.

 

The Boy Scouts have a right to promote their values. And so do people who don't support the Boy Scouts. Just because the BSA is legally free to discriminate, that doesn't provide for a gag order against people who disapprove.

 

Exactly. They're not just saying start your own. They're saying, (not everyone but the implication has been made by some) "Start your own and how dare you say you don't like the BSA's policies."

[twoforjoy]

FWIW, I don't think most people here are objecting to the fact that there's religious content in the Boy Scouts. I'm sure some people wouldn't like that and wouldn't join because of it, but I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that the organization is officially closed to atheists. So, an atheist who was fully aware of the BSA's inclusion of religion and willing to respectfully tolerate that part of things is still not allowed to do so if they are open about their own convictions. That's the main problem, at least as far as I can tell, and not that there's religious content.

 

Boys from lesbian families are not welcome.

 

Really?! That's horrible. If they want to have an official ban on gay troop leaders, I don't like it, but that's one thing. But excluding children from GLBT families is not at all okay with me.

 

I'll have to talk to my DH about this one.

[Joanne]

:iagree:Strongly agreed!!!:iagree:

 

 

If you are not happy about cub scout or boy scout or any organization for that matter, you can join another organization that matches your beliefs or

simply start your own.

 

Early on in my recovery from alcoholism, I went to a meeting in which the leader used the Christian Bible in conjunction with AA material. This is totally not supported by the 12 Traditions of AA. But each group is autonomous, and if the group allows it, they allow it.

 

I left the group because I felt, strongly, that the implied sanction of a particular spirituality is harmful/potentially harmful in AA. I did leave and find a group(s) that were more suited.

 

I also talk about the group I left because the issue is important, and I am still entitled to an opinion and to appropriately express it.

 

The same with this thread. People can (and should, if they feel strongly), simultaneously find a setting that is a match for them AND voice their concerns about the setting they left.

[Tangerine]

Did you know that the BSA actually BUILT that building?

 

Yes I did. But the city owns it and the land.

[Joanne]

Ok - I want to give an example on where the BS policies become problematic for me. And this is a true example that is happening to several families I know and am close to right now. Boy scout troops are advertised,promoted, and popular in a public schools. ).

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I could not agree more. Every new school year, "Join Cub Scouts" signs appear at and around public schools. NO mention is made that it is an exclusionary organization. Schools actively host and encourage this. "Informed consent" is totally lacking.

 

Among other issues, it's an example of assumed spirituality and the Christian over-culture.

[YLVD]

I am surprised that there hasn't been more comments on that stance from BSA. Because of that line, I think the BSA goes beyond just excluding atheists.

 

Agreed. Now I'm really annoyed by it. Being a good citizen has nothing to do with religion or lack of religion.

[YLVD]

My sil is a lesbian - we're very close, and she's fine with BSA.

 

That's fine but most people are not going to be okay with a group that discriminates against them. That is like a person of color supporting a bigoted and racist organization.

[YLVD]

I was thinking the same thing!

 

Me too :001_smile:

[TxMama]

So I need some experienced scouting moms help here. What happens if a family in the group is nonreligious? Is this going to be a continuing issue for me? If it wouldn't break my boys' hearts to back out now, I probably would, but since it would, it is not an option right now.

 

Yes the religious issue is going to be an ongoing issue.You could just skip the Duty to God requirement and not earn the Bear badge. In practice, at the Cub Scout level, Duty to God is typically left to the parent's discretion.

 

However, at the Boy Scout level, being Reverent is an importmant aspect. This is a question that can be asked at each Board of Review just like any other quality that is part of the Boy Scout Oath and Law. There is a requirement to have a reference from a Religious Leader for the Eagle Scout rank. Each boy that I know that has received his Eagle has been asked questions about how he has been reverent at various points of his scouting career.

 

I do know of one boy who was not actively involved in a church organization. He got involved with a local youth group in which the Scoutmaster was a leader so he could have a reference of a religious leader.

 

HTH

[YLVD]

You want me to find a black person who doesn't have a problem with race restricted country clubs?

 

I really don't understand why what I said is ridiculous. It seems like a pretty close parallel to an isolated gay person who is ok with sexual preference restricted organizations.

 

:iagree:

[LidiyaDawn]

Boys from lesbian families are not welcome.

 

Wait - I thought the "policy" was against GLBT adult leaders… why couldn't the kids join?

 

[i'm not commenting on whether the kids should or shouldn't participate in a group that discriminates against their folks - i'm just asking about the policy specifically]

[Lady Florida.]

Wait - I thought the "policy" was against GLBT adult leaders… why couldn't the kids join?

 

 

That's what I thought too. Atheist adults and kids are barred from volunteering or becoming members, but I thought it was only that GLBT adults can't be leaders.

 

ETA: I keep trying to look it up on bsalegal.org and it won't load. Are we overloading it? :)

[kalanamak]

Because more men molest children that women do. I carefully vet the adults in my kids' lives. I do not trust an organization to do it as well as I do.

 

My brother noted in his BS years it was a rule no adult alone with a child. If someone got sick in their tent at night, both men went to check on them.

[Tangerine]

Wait - I thought the "policy" was against GLBT adult leaders… why couldn't the kids join?

 

[i'm not commenting on whether the kids should or shouldn't participate in a group that discriminates against their folks - i'm just asking about the policy specifically]

 

:iagree:

 

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/index.html documents court cases and issues regarding discrimination in the BSA. So far I haven't found anything about children from gay families.

[Joanne]

:iagree:

 

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/index.html documents court cases and issues regarding discrimination in the BSA. So far I haven't found anything about children from gay families.

 

And their parents are excluded from leadership. That is (IMO) inappropriately exclusionary to the FAMILY, from an organization promoted at what are supposed to be secular public schools.

[Shannon in TN]

I think part of the reason people get upset at the discrimination in Boy Scouts is because it's such a prevalent organization in public schools and its receiving government benefits. For kids who go to public schools and want to do an extracurricular group with friends from school, Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts are basically it. They are the only organizations that hold regularly scheduled meetings at most elementary schools. The schools give out information, they allow them to use their facilities free of charge, they support them - even schools with required uniforms will allow the scouts to wear their scouting uniform instead on special occassions. No other organization gets this kind of support from public schools.

 

If it was handled as a PRIVATE organization in all aspects and was marketed as a Christian/religious organzation - most people wouldn't have a problem with it. My son was eligible to join Cub Scouts this year and I spent some time talking with the other t-ball moms about it. A lot of people (especially around here which is very secular), especially those with younger children just starting out in scouts, are unaware of how discriminatory and political they are. Many just think of it as a fun activity for boys. The fact that Girl Scouts is handled very differently just adds to the confusion.

 

I know there are other organizations available. Believe me, I have looked into all of them. None are as wide-spread as Boy and Girl Scouts, none have the strength on a national level (except maybe 4-H but even that is smaller in urban areas) and not everyone has the ability to just start up their own group.

 

I'm still working my way through the thread but this right here just happened with a friend with her ds. They do not support the exclusionary policies of the BS and will not based on their political/moral beliefs. Her anger and frustration stemmed from the no gays/no God-less policy AND the fact that as a private institution so heavily "advertised" at their public school.

 

Funny, after we talked about it, I was searching the forum for any discussions about it and found none. Then today, this thread showed up. Off to read more...

[catz]

And their parents are excluded from leadership. That is (IMO) inappropriately exclusionary to the FAMILY, from an organization promoted at what are supposed to be secular public schools.

 

:iagree: I guess as a parent I can fully understand why parents would not want their children to participate in an organization that was not welcoming to them all as a family. One of these families in my example has a son with special needs (severe ADHD) that literally could not participate without a parent present.

[Ipsey]

Yes the religious issue is going to be an ongoing issue.You could just skip the Duty to God requirement and not earn the Bear badge. In practice, at the Cub Scout level, Duty to God is typically left to the parent's discretion.

 

However, at the Boy Scout level, being Reverent is an importmant aspect. This is a question that can be asked at each Board of Review just like any other quality that is part of the Boy Scout Oath and Law. There is a requirement to have a reference from a Religious Leader for the Eagle Scout rank. Each boy that I know that has received his Eagle has been asked questions about how he has been reverent at various points of his scouting career.

 

I do know of one boy who was not actively involved in a church organization. He got involved with a local youth group in which the Scoutmaster was a leader so he could have a reference of a religious leader.

 

HTH

 

Not asking you, but more of a passing thought.

 

Reverence merely means "a deep respect for". Couldn't one show reverence for nature or human life or something like that? I'd think that would be a much more profound thing than reverence toward a deity.

 

Too bad :(

[DawnM]

How would that be *more* profound?

 

Not asking you, but more of a passing thought.

 

Reverence merely means "a deep respect for". Couldn't one show reverence for nature or human life or something like that? I'd think that would be a much more profound thing than reverence toward a deity.

 

Too bad :(

[Ipsey]

How would that be *more* profound?

 

Ok, how about equally profound.

To me, taking care of people is more than worshiping a deity--of course I don't believe in deities anymore. I can see how some people view it differently.

[Shannon in TN]

So then the answer is religion? But wait, supposedly people don't have a problem with the religious aspect of it, since it is a religious organization. I thought BSA was unpopular because of the homosexuality issue. I don't think BSA can win. There are other organization that people can join that would make them happy. Why not join those organizations? Make these organizations wonderful and fabulous and then lure those that aren't entirely happy with BSA away.

 

Unfortunately, around here I don't believe there are any other options for young boys.

 

Ok - I want to give an example on where the BS policies become problematic for me. And this is a true example that is happening to several families I know and am close to right now. Boy scout troops are advertised,promoted, and popular in a public schools. Boys from lesbian families are not welcome. These boys mix with other boys in scouts and want to join, but cannot. Their parents cannot participate. My son went to PS for 2 years and I had people telling me all the time that my oldest should join, but I was not comfortable with the policies. It was "THE THING" to do after school for boys. But yet the tone was religious and not tolerant in an area where there are a fair number of gay and lesbian families.

 

If this were all taking place under the funding and roof of a church or faith community, I have absolutely zero problem with it. It's the waving in the face of the masses, the public funding, and then not allowing participation that is a problem for me.

 

So we started a campfire group, and I agree with whoever said it was a ton of work. We've alleviated some of that this year by requiring each participating family to organize an outing or activity. That has been GREAT! More adults are involved, we're doing more diverse activities, and the work load is spread. We only get together 1-2X a month, and sometimes it's simple (hiking/pick up garbage, sledding and hot chocolate, visiting a nursing home, etc).

 

Around here, there is so much public promotion of it, it's hard to avoid. And then you have to have that "no, you can't because of (insert political/moral reason here)," and try to explain it in terms that a 6 or 7 year old can understand. All he knows is that his friends are in scouts and he's not.

 

Here's what I thought, tho, when I first heard about the God-less part. Isn't it somewhat expected of Christians to spread the Good News to those who don't yet know or believe? How are we (general "we") supposed to spread that news and minister to those who need it and be those "good citizens" that the BSA is trying to raise if they won't include those who don't yet know the Good News? I would not be the Christian I am today if it hadn't been for women willing to step out and accept a non-believer into their MOPS/Moms groups.

 

(BTW, I do also have a problem with the anti-gay stand, not just the God-less.)

[DawnM]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, BS does push community service very heavily and the boys do have to do quite a bit of it to advance in rank.

 

Dawn

 

Ok, how about equally profound.

To me, taking care of people is more than worshiping a deity--of course I don't believe in deities anymore. I can see how some people view it differently.

[Ipsey]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, BS does push community service very heavily and the boys do have to do quite a bit of it to advance in rank.

 

Dawn

 

I think that's fine. I think this is part of reverence/respect for people.

[ElizaG]

I do have a problem with BSA since it states:

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognising an obligation to God.

 

I have problems with a organization that is allowed to teach that a person can not grow into "the best kind of citizen" without recognizing a obligation to god. I think that a organzation that believes in such a thing should not be allowed to operate and teach millions of children.

 

(emphasis added)

 

:001_huh: That's a pretty extreme view, even by Canadian standards. How would you go about "not allowing" the many organizations whose core beliefs include this principle?

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

That's exactly what people have been saying in this thread - that they wouldn't let their child join Cub/Boy Scouts and have joined other organizations instead. And it's led to an enormous outbreak of offendedness and hurt feelings among people who approve of BSA policies.

 

The Boy Scouts have a right to promote their values. And so do people who don't support the Boy Scouts. Just because the BSA is legally free to discriminate, that doesn't provide for a gag order against people who disapprove.

[Jennifer3141]

I had to give references and they were checked.

 

And? :001_unsure:

[QueenCat]

 

Really?! That's horrible. If they want to have an official ban on gay troop leaders, I don't like it, but that's one thing. But excluding children from GLBT families is not at all okay with me.

 

I'll have to talk to my DH about this one.

 

The boys are welcome. Their parents just can't be official leaders, at least not if they're telling the powers to be they are glbt... I'm not saying I agree, this is just how I see it working right now. We have one scout in our Troop with two moms. They volunteer but are not registered leaders.

[WishboneDawn]

Only because BSA gave it to them.

 

Okaaaay but once given they have no claim, right? Once the building is in public hands, there are strings attached to it's use. How the building came to be in public hands is of no importance anymore.

[amey311]

Good point. (Wow, I didn't know this about GS. Really, there are no male leaders?)

 

THere are male leaders. Here's a blog about a couple: http://girlscoutdads.com/

 

FWIW, when I was a brownie and junior scout, my dad was the first aider for our troop. He went on encampments with us (and so did my brother, as a tag-a-long) and I'm guessing Dad and Brother slept in a tent by themselves. It appears from that blog that men can no longer be first aiders, which I can understand in the light of today's very litigious society, but it makes me a bit sad for all those dads of girls who want to be involved in scouting with their daughters - their opportunities within Girl Scouting are shrinking.

[LidiyaDawn]

That's a pretty extreme view, even by Canadian standards.

 

Somehow, "extreme" and "Canadian" just don't go together very well.

 

[okay maybe when it comes to opinions about beer. or snow. or what to do with snow if you live in Toronto.]

[TxMama]

Not asking you, but more of a passing thought.

 

Reverence merely means "a deep respect for". Couldn't one show reverence for nature or human life or something like that? I'd think that would be a much more profound thing than reverence toward a deity.

 

Too bad :(

 

BSA doesn't expect a proclamation regarding a particular diety. The expectation is reverence as shown by personal practice. What that may look like would be dependant on the boy's family and religious leaders about thier particular religious devotion.

 

In reality, I've had boys respond to "How are you reverent" by answering about going to service, serving during a Scout Sunday (even if they weren't typically church goers), etc.

 

One boy talked about his tenure as a Chaplain at Philmont. He wasn't especially concerned that everyone getting the religious badge ( or whatever it was) but he did say grace before each meal and took it upon himself to deal with each person who experienced homesickness. He stated that he was reverant by tending to his fellow scouts during their time of need.

 

HTH

[justasque]

About the building: If I remember correctly, Philly said to the city, OK, we won't discriminate, we really weren't actively doing it anyway, we have no problem with that. And national BSA said if you do that we'll pull your charter (which presumably would have resulted in losing their campgrounds and such? IDK about this). So Philly, where in my experience, practically speaking, this stuff is a non-issue - no one asks, no one cares - is between a rock and a hard place.

 

The city has to push; it can't allow special treatment for a private organization that discriminates against children on religious & sexual orientation grounds. The BSA apparently feels it has to push back. The BSA has the right to discriminate if it wants to; no one is arguing that. But the city doesn't want to support that kind of organization with special treatment.

 

The kids - the scouts and the can't-be-scouts - are stuck in the middle.

[Ipsey]

. . . took it upon himself to deal with each person who experienced homesickness. He stated that he was reverant by tending to his fellow scouts during their time of need.

 

HTH

 

See, that's lovely! This seems reverent to me.

 

I asked in an earlier post whether an atheist could meet the reverence requirements (my hubby--atheist, went to Mass every Sunday, served as altar boy, etc.), but I sure would rather it be met by something like this.

 

Anyway, I didn't get an answer until yours. I think it's nice.

 

We can't join Scouts, but it's still nice :)

[kalanamak]

The whining gets old.

 

Well, then I'm disappointed that you are whining about the whining. There are a lot of threads that "disappoint" me (make me a little rueful about human nature), but it would get very old if I kept telling people that.

 

Just a thought!;)

[Julie Smith]

(emphasis added)

 

:001_huh: That's a pretty extreme view, even by Canadian standards. How would you go about "not allowing" the many organizations whose core beliefs include this principle?

 

Perhaps, if appropriate arguing my point of view in a political arena. Maybe if the subject comes up writing letters to the editor of newspapers.

 

Does that do a better job of showing the extreme nature of this Canadian?

[Jenny in Florida]

unless you (the general you) were out picketting the military and protesting your tax dollars going to it before next month - well - it's pretty hypocritical.

 

I believe it's called "voting."

 

And I wouldn't join the military (or encourage one of my kids to do so), either.

[YLVD]

I believe it's called "voting."

 

And I wouldn't join the military (or encourage one of my kids to do so), either.

 

:iagree:

[jenn-]

Wow! Just a totally shallow thing to say, but I have NEVER posted a thread that has made it to 30 pages. Normally I seem to be a thread killer, so this was a nice surprise to come home to after doing the "Mom's taxi service" thing.

[LisaKinVA]

Okaaaay but once given they have no claim, right? Once the building is in public hands, there are strings attached to it's use. How the building came to be in public hands is of no importance anymore.

 

It depends upon "how" it was "given." There easilly could have been conditions or terms as part of the gift (such as, private land donated for the express use as a public park). There may also be a time frame given as a part of the agreement, or could exist essentially in perpetuity.

 

Not all "gifts" are free of strings.

[ElizaG]

Somehow, "extreme" and "Canadian" just don't go together very well.

Having lived outside Canada for several years, I've come to recognize a certain strain of thought in some (not all) people from my native country. It encompasses the belief that government legislation is a reliable way to solve most types of problems, and, as a corollary, that "wrong ideas" should be banned. I guess what's considered extreme is a matter of perspective, but the vast majority of Americans, including those who disagree strongly with the BSA's beliefs about atheism, would never suggest that the organization should be prohibited from operating (as the PP did). Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the freedom of parents to teach children according to their own values, are deeply held principles here.

 

Perhaps, if appropriate arguing my point of view in a political arena. Maybe if the subject comes up writing letters to the editor of newspapers.

 

Does that do a better job of showing the extreme nature of this Canadian?

The term "extreme" was meant in reference to the opinion that you posted -- i.e., that the BSA should not be allowed to operate, due to their views about the importance of religious faith -- not to how it might be expressed. (In the last 50 years, Canada has mastered the art of making radical social and political changes in extremely boring and mundane ways. Hey, I'm old enough that I was there on Parliament Hill at the signing of the Constitution Act, which included the Charter. It was a snooze-fest. ;) )

[*Lulu*]

It depends upon "how" it was "given." There easilly could have been conditions or terms as part of the gift (such as, private land donated for the express use as a public park). There may also be a time frame given as a part of the agreement, or could exist essentially in perpetuity.

 

Not all "gifts" are free of strings.

 

So you've met my family. :glare:

 

 

We had a building situation locally with the GS where they built the building, but on public land. Eventually the city upped the rent of the land and the council couldn't pay, so they vacated and the city got the building that a billion boxes of cookies built.

 

Sometimes things are not as cut and dry as they seem. And, as in the GS case, often involve at least one party not using all their available brain power.

[catz]

Wow! Just a totally shallow thing to say, but I have NEVER posted a thread that has made it to 30 pages. Normally I seem to be a thread killer, so this was a nice surprise to come home to after doing the "Mom's taxi service" thing.

 

:lol: Me too! I'm proud of us. Just did mom's taxi for a few hours here too.

[ktgrok]

Give me stats that most religious folks, not culturally religious, condone homosexuality. Find me stats that say members already involved in the BSA are unhappy with this ruling? The demise of BSA won't be the homosexuality issue, it will be the changes made from coercion from people that are pro-homosexual wanting to destroy it.

 

I have a son that is a scout. I am unhappy with the ruling. I don't have to condone homosexuality to want all boys, regardless, to be allowed in the group. Just because they are in the group doesn't mean it is a condoned behavior. I don't condone sex before marriage. Does that mean that all scouts that are not virgins should be kicked out? No. Heck, half the boys in the cubscouts were in families with the parents cohabitating without the sanctity of marriage. But those parents, the ones 'living in sin" were allowed to volunteer, be coleaders, etc. So it isn't about what the bible says, or sin, it is just discrimination.

 

And we have pulled my son out this year. He will be doing 4-H instead, partly for the reasons everyone has stated.