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This thread is disappointing to me. I really wanted my boy to experience Boy Scouts. I'm used to going along with the God thing as an atheist in a Christian society, but that's usually in circumstances where I'm not explicitly told I'm not welcome.

 

While I agree as a private organization Boy Scouts has the right, I don't think it's in their best interest. (And file this under another counter-argument for when Christians whine that they are so persecuted against).

 

Oh well, they don't want me, then I don't want their darn overpriced popcorn.

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Some crackpot leader may have discriminated, but I am 100% sure that atheists and lesbians are welcome in Girl Scouts.

 

We were friendly for many years with a woman who held a professional role in local GS leadership. She is an "out" lesbian in a long-term committed relationship. And she is a member of the Unitarian Universalist church, which is the denomination that wrote the religious badge curriculum that BSA won't recognize.

 

Of the two groups, I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable with the Girl Scouts.

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We were friendly for many years with a woman who held a professional role in local GS leadership. She is an "out" lesbian in a long-term committed relationship. And she is a member of the Unitarian Universalist church, which is the denomination that wrote the religious badge curriculum that BSA won't recognize.

 

Of the two groups, I'd feel a whole lot more comfortable with the Girl Scouts.

 

We have a member at our local UU church that heads up a girl scout troop. It's very secular/lesbian friendly.

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This thread is disappointing to me. I really wanted my boy to experience Boy Scouts. I'm used to going along with the God thing as an atheist in a Christian society, but that's usually in circumstances where I'm not explicitly told I'm not welcome.

 

While I agree as a private organization Boy Scouts has the right, I don't think it's in their best interest. (And file this under another counter-argument for when Christians whine that they are so persecuted against).

 

Oh well, they don't want me, then I don't want their darn overpriced popcorn.

 

Yep, I sadly agree--with the private organization having the right to choose their own guidelines--not about the popcorn. Blech! :)

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I'm disappointed in this thread. I'm fine with most BSA policies.

 

Why?

 

Not why are you fine with their policies. I assume I understand that.

 

But why, if you want the right for BSA to have those policies because they are a private organization, are you "disappointed" in a thread on which private people are discussing their opinions of those policies?

 

They have the right to their stance. We have the right to ours.

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At this point in time, it is not considered discriminatory (in the negative sense of the word) to separate genders for schools, bathrooms, clubs, gyms, private organizations, etc. It has been fairly well-established now that boys and girls can benefit from all-boy and all-girl environments, and there are good reasons to seek out those environments. The organization exists to create a safe, accepting all-girl environment, and that is not inconsistent with still being an open and accepting organization in our society. Some girls do not thrive or assert themselves in the presence of boys. I had one girl in my troop whose mother had passed away and lived in a home with her father and four brothers. I've heard of girls who were victims of sexual abuse getting a lot out of being in Girl Scouts.

 

I only know one word for discrimination. It means to distinguish one thing from another. All of these other usages or "senses" boil down to: "The BSA doesn't accept __________ and ____________. I want them to. If they accept what I think they should, I will cease to call them discriminatory."

 

But people don't like to say things so obtusely so it is cloaked in terms to sound more high-minded. In truth, the BSA will still not let in a girl and it will continue to discriminate if only on this point alone.

 

Maybe there is a boy who wants to be a Girl Scout and actively seeks to be one. Maybe he wants all the benefits of the Girl Scout organization and comradery, and thinks they would like him too and that through the richness of his life experiences, that he would be a good and beneficial friend to them all. So it would really be the other girls and GSA leaders pointing to their membership requirements and saying, "sorry buddy, you don't meet these requirements and you can't join this group. It's only for girls" Aside, they would all wonder why doesn't this boy just join a club for boys, scouting for boys, or start his own boys club which is modeled after GSA but allows in whomever they want. Maybe this boy will never see why they declined him based only his sex or get over it. Maybe not, but it was never the purpose of the GSA to be all things to all scout-wannabees.

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Why?

 

Not why are you fine with their policies. I assume I understand that.

 

But why, if you want the right for BSA to have those policies because they are a private organization, are you "disappointed" in a thread on which private people are discussing their opinions of those policies?

 

They have the right to their stance. We have the right to ours.

 

The whining gets old. There are plenty of other organizations out there. Enough organizations to pick from that most people in this world should be able to find a place they feel comfortable. It seems though that people just want to tear apart other organizations.

 

Boy Scouts is for people who believe in God. The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion. That is the way that it is.

 

There really isn't respect for peoples' beliefs when throwing around the word like "bigot."

 

The Supreme Court declared it legal. If people don't like it find another organization or create another.

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I guess I just don't understand the discriminatory stance. Not all groups are suitable for all families, I thought that was a pretty normal situation. Its not like the Boy Scouts hide their stance, or use a sneaky way of going about things, its stated flat out.

 

I mean, if I was joining a secular group, I wouldn't be upset that they didn't say grace before meals, and wouldn't consider it discriminatory that they didn't.

 

To me, its kinda like complaining that AWANAS is religious.

 

I suppose that any sort of rules governing any group would be considered discriminatory, b/c someone, somewhere would be left out.

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I guess I just don't understand the discriminatory stance. Not all groups are suitable for all families, I thought that was a pretty normal situation. Its not like the Boy Scouts hide their stance, or use a sneaky way of going about things, its stated flat out.

 

I mean, if I was joining a secular group, I wouldn't be upset that they didn't say grace before meals, and wouldn't consider it discriminatory that they didn't.

 

To me, its kinda like complaining that AWANAS is religious.

 

I suppose that any sort of rules governing any group would be considered discriminatory, b/c someone, somewhere would be left out.

 

I think it's the fact that BSA is such a large group, with so much backing, you can find it anywhere, it's widely recognized, and has so many ways people can participate. People, including atheists and gays, want to be a part of it, for all of it's benefits--many of which have to do with the fact that's it's a group that's been around for so long and is established.

 

It's a bit of a shock to find out they can discriminate against groups of people whose non-belief and sexual identity don't have anything to do with decent behavior and the skills Boy Scouts are supposed to exhibit.

 

If BSA was a p!ssant little group, no one would care.

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The whining gets old. There are plenty of other organizations out there. Enough organizations to pick from that most people in this world should be able to find a place they feel comfortable. It seems though that people just want to tear apart other organizations.

 

Boy Scouts is for people who believe in God. The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion. That is the way that it is.

 

There really isn't respect for peoples' beliefs when throwing around the word like "bigot."

 

The Supreme Court declared it legal. If people don't like it find another organization or create another.

 

Some peoples beliefs are bigoted.

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I think it's the fact that BSA is such a large group, with so much backing, you can find it anywhere, it's widely recognized, and has so many ways people can participate. People, including atheists and gays, want to be a part of it, for all of it's benefits--many of which have to do with the fact that's it's a group that's been around for so long and is established.

 

It's a bit of a shock to find out they can discriminate against groups of people whose non-belief and sexual identity don't have anything to do with decent behavior and the skills Boy Scouts are supposed to exhibit.

 

If BSA was a p!ssant little group, no one would care.

 

People were also getting a bit uppity about the government subsidy of a group that maintained discriminatory policies. Thankfully, things are changing. Philadelphia told them to admit gays, or pay fair market rent on their headquarters (rather than the $1 they had been paying).

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The whining gets old. There are plenty of other organizations out there.

 

Several of these posts did lead and offer information about those other organizations.

 

Enough organizations to pick from that most people in this world should be able to find a place they feel comfortable.

 

One person linked to a article about a boy who felt very comfortable in scouts. Comfortable enough to make it all the way to Eagle. Then he was 'kicked out' since he was gay. So this thread is letting people know the various stances different Scout organzations have so that people know what they are getting into going in. Because some people don't know that Boy Scouts doesn't allow atheists, homosexuals... And some people don't even know that after having a child in Boy Scouts.

 

 

Boy Scouts is for people who believe in God.

 

Some Boy Scout programs around the world do not require a believe in God. (See an above post of mine listing various Boy Scout organizations around the world that don't require a believe in god.

 

The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion. That is the way that it is.

 

Several different religions find homosexuals acceptable, even allowing them to marry. And since Boy Scouts of America recognize all religions, then it recognizes ones that accept homosexual religions.

 

Abrahamic religions... Today some denominations within these religions are accepting of homosexuality and inclusive of homosexual people, such as Reform Judaism, the United Church of Christ and the Metropolitan Community Church. Some Presbyterian and Anglican churches welcome members regardless of same-sex sexual practices, with some provinces allowing for the ordination and inclusion of gay and lesbian clerics, and affirmation of same-sex unions. Reform Judaism incorporates lesbian and gay rabbis and same-sex marriage liturgies, while Reconstructionist Judaism and Conservative Judaism in the USA allows for lesbian and gay rabbis and same-sex unions.[/url]

 

Some liberal Christians are supportive of homosexuals. Other Christian denominations do not view monogamous same sex relationships as bad or evil. These include the United Church of Canada, the United Church of Christ[25], the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. In particular, the Metropolitan Community Church, a denomination of 40,000 members, was founded specifically to serve the Christian LGBT community, and is devoted to being open and affirming to LGBT people.

 

Hinduism has taken various positions, ranging from positive to neutral or discouraging. Homosexuality is regarded as one of the possible expressions of human desire and Hindu mythic stories have portrayed homosexual experience as natural and joyful

 

The Unitarian Universalist Association supports the freedom to marry[79] and compares resistance to it to the resistance to abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, and the end of anti-miscegenation laws

 

 

Perhaps I missed it, but the term bigot was never once used in this thread. That is with the exception of your use of the term.

 

 

 

The Supreme Court has declared many things legal. But with whining some of those things have changed. I believe the Supreme Court has upholds the right to free speech, (aka whining) about things that you don't like and want the supreme court to change.

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The whining gets old. There are plenty of other organizations out there. Enough organizations to pick from that most people in this world should be able to find a place they feel comfortable. It seems though that people just want to tear apart other organizations.

 

Boy Scouts is for people who believe in God. The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion. That is the way that it is.

 

There really isn't respect for peoples' beliefs when throwing around the word like "bigot."

 

The Supreme Court declared it legal. If people don't like it find another organization or create another.

 

Okay. And you know, although I'm not in favour of the GSA's policies and I'm not sure your tone is an improvement on those using terms like "bigot", I do agree with their right to limit membership.

 

Some parts I don't agree with. Whether, "The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion," is true or not, it's something of a red herring. Most do not condone adultery either yet the BS doesn't specifically screen for or ban adulterers, does it? It's not an issue of not wanting sinful behaviour in the BSA (what a small group of people it would be if it were!), it's much more likely a remnant of outmoded thinking that equates homosexuals as predators and/or pedophiles.

 

But, I am in favour of groups having the right to limit membership and so I'll support their right to limit theirs. I'm a Girl Guide leader and I think we should have every right to limit our membership to girls and women. But others will disagree and they have a right to. They aren't "tearing apart" my organization, they're expressing a certain outrage and discussing that outrage. If my organization is worth it's salt and has a thoughtful response to that criticism it should withstand that outrage quite easily.

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Thank you everyone for the continued responses. You have given me a lot to think about while bloodying my fingers sewing on patches this afternoon. Unfortunately I just cannot pull them out because of the religious aspect right now. I really wish I would have done this research 3 months ago BEFORE the sign up. I really just thought it sounded like a good idea for DH to become involved in an activity with the boys. He lasted one "boring" meeting before he declared that he didn't know if he would be able to handle going to ALL the weekly meetings. After this week, I am going to insist he takes them to them all. This week is the popcorn sales kick off (I am sooo not a fundraiser person), so I need to be there to hear what they say.

 

DH also wants to go camping more often than I would like to, so I figured he might enjoy that aspect with the boys. I received the Fall schedule on Monday and they managed to schedule every single camp out on the weekends my DD has a gymnastics competition.

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Okay. And you know, although I'm not in favour of the GSA's policies and I'm not sure your tone is an improvement on those using terms like "bigot", I do agree with their right to limit membership.

 

Some parts I don't agree with. Whether, "The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion," is true or not, it's something of a red herring. Most do not condone adultery either yet the BS doesn't specifically screen for or ban adulterers, does it? It's not an issue of not wanting sinful behaviour in the BSA (what a small group of people it would be if it were!), it's much more likely a remnant of outmoded thinking that equates homosexuals as predators and/or pedophiles.

 

But, I am in favour of groups having the right to limit membership and so I'll support their right to limit theirs. I'm a Girl Guide leader and I think we should have every right to limit our membership to girls and women. But others will disagree and they have a right to. They aren't "tearing apart" my organization, they're expressing a certain outrage and discussing that outrage. If my organization is worth it's salt and has a thoughtful response to that criticism it should withstand that outrage quite easily.

 

I've been a Girl Scout leader, too. I think the BSAs response is fine. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong.

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People were also getting a bit uppity about the government subsidy of a group that maintained discriminatory policies. Thankfully, things are changing. Philadelphia told them to admit gays, or pay fair market rent on their headquarters (rather than the $1 they had been paying).

 

This is true. I don't have a problem with it. The local charities that have banned the BSA have lost my contributions as well. :001_smile:

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Okay. And you know, although I'm not in favour of the GSA's policies and I'm not sure your tone is an improvement on those using terms like "bigot", I do agree with their right to limit membership.

 

Some parts I don't agree with. Whether, "The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion," is true or not, it's something of a red herring. Most do not condone adultery either yet the BS doesn't specifically screen for or ban adulterers, does it? It's not an issue of not wanting sinful behaviour in the BSA (what a small group of people it would be if it were!), it's much more likely a remnant of outmoded thinking that equates homosexuals as predators and/or pedophiles.

 

But, I am in favour of groups having the right to limit membership and so I'll support their right to limit theirs. I'm a Girl Guide leader and I think we should have every right to limit our membership to girls and women. But others will disagree and they have a right to. They aren't "tearing apart" my organization, they're expressing a certain outrage and discussing that outrage. If my organization is worth it's salt and has a thoughtful response to that criticism it should withstand that outrage quite easily.

 

Wait, now people suddenly care about tone? There has been plenty of negative tone in this thread against BSA. It's interesting that you only point it out when someone disagrees with your stance.

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I think it's the fact that BSA is such a large group, with so much backing, you can find it anywhere, it's widely recognized, and has so many ways people can participate. People, including atheists and gays, want to be a part of it, for all of it's benefits--many of which have to do with the fact that's it's a group that's been around for so long and is established.

 

It's a bit of a shock to find out they can discriminate against groups of people whose non-belief and sexual identity don't have anything to do with decent behavior and the skills Boy Scouts are supposed to exhibit.

 

If BSA was a p!ssant little group, no one would care.

 

Wait a minute though. BSA does have, from what I've read here, quite an emphasis on faith and belief. To those outside the group it may seem to be mainly about survival skills or selling popcorn but it's pretty obvious that's not the case for many of those running the organization. Otherwise, why the badges related to God and faith? It's not quite fair for us to bring up the aspects of the BSA that would make it uncomfortable for an atheist kid and then maintain those aspects have nothing to do with how Boy Scouts are supposed to act. If it's in the program, it's likely because the BSA believes it's integral to being a BSA.

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Several of these posts did lead and offer information about those other organizations.

 

 

 

One person linked to a article about a boy who felt very comfortable in scouts. Comfortable enough to make it all the way to Eagle. Then he was 'kicked out' since he was gay. So this thread is letting people know the various stances different Scout organzations have so that people know what they are getting into going in. Because some people don't know that Boy Scouts doesn't allow atheists, homosexuals... And some people don't even know that after having a child in Boy Scouts.

 

 

 

 

Some Boy Scout programs around the world do not require a believe in God. (See an above post of mine listing various Boy Scout organizations around the world that don't require a believe in god.

 

 

 

Several different religions find homosexuals acceptable, even allowing them to marry. And since Boy Scouts of America recognize all religions, then it recognizes ones that accept homosexual religions.

 

Abrahamic religions... Today some denominations within these religions are accepting of homosexuality and inclusive of homosexual people, such as Reform Judaism, the United Church of Christ and the Metropolitan Community Church. Some Presbyterian and Anglican churches welcome members regardless of same-sex sexual practices, with some provinces allowing for the ordination and inclusion of gay and lesbian clerics, and affirmation of same-sex unions. Reform Judaism incorporates lesbian and gay rabbis and same-sex marriage liturgies, while Reconstructionist Judaism and Conservative Judaism in the USA allows for lesbian and gay rabbis and same-sex unions.[/url]

 

Some liberal Christians are supportive of homosexuals. Other Christian denominations do not view monogamous same sex relationships as bad or evil. These include the United Church of Canada, the United Church of Christ[25], the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. In particular, the Metropolitan Community Church, a denomination of 40,000 members, was founded specifically to serve the Christian LGBT community, and is devoted to being open and affirming to LGBT people.

 

Hinduism has taken various positions, ranging from positive to neutral or discouraging. Homosexuality is regarded as one of the possible expressions of human desire and Hindu mythic stories have portrayed homosexual experience as natural and joyful

 

The Unitarian Universalist Association supports the freedom to marry[79] and compares resistance to it to the resistance to abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, and the end of anti-miscegenation laws

 

 

 

Perhaps I missed it, but the term bigot was never once used in this thread. That is with the exception of your use of the term.

 

 

 

Bigot was used. If you can't find it then it was edited out. I said the majority of the religious members religion's do not condone homosexuality. You can make as many links as you want, but I stand behind that statement.

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The whining gets old. There are plenty of other organizations out there. Enough organizations to pick from that most people in this world should be able to find a place they feel comfortable. It seems though that people just want to tear apart other organizations.

 

Boy Scouts is for people who believe in God. The majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion. That is the way that it is.

 

There really isn't respect for peoples' beliefs when throwing around the word like "bigot."

 

The Supreme Court declared it legal. If people don't like it find another organization or create another.

 

I don't recall whining?

 

I think what bothers me about BSA is that they have such a huge presence and a reputation that doesn't line up with what they really are. As evidenced right on this thread, many people who have warm fuzzy feelings about the idea of Boy Scouts have no idea what a conservative organization they are in reality.

 

And for years BSA got a nearly free ride on the theory that they were "good for boys." Schools and public spaces were rented to them for token sums, for example. And they got discounted rates and freebies and all kinds of perks because they were considered such a great organization. But, in reality, they have policies that directly conflict with those of most governments in the US.

 

As I've said repeatedly, I respect their right to maintain their stance on these kinds of issues. And I value my own right to refuse to support them with my tax dollars and to speak up when the discussion is opened. (Actually, I won't even buy a soda from a Boy Scout booth at a craft fair.)

 

No whining. Just saying what I believe. It's not like I'm knocking on the BSA's door and crying because they won't let me in. I wouldn't join a group if you paid me.

 

I'd be really interested to know where you got that stat about belief in god and not condoning homosexuality, by the way. That's not something I've ever read anywhere.

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Wait a minute though. BSA does have, from what I've read here, quite an emphasis on faith and belief. To those outside the group it may seem to be mainly about survival skills or selling popcorn but it's pretty obvious that's not the case for many of those running the organization. Otherwise, why the badges related to God and faith? It's not quite fair for us to bring up the aspects of the BSA that would make it uncomfortable for an atheist kid and then maintain those aspects have nothing to do with how Boy Scouts are supposed to act. If it's in the program, it's likely because the BSA believes it's integral to being a BSA.

Yup. And how is it fair, for all the families currently involved in BSA, who are pleased with the organization and likely part of the attraction is because of the faith inclusion rather than despite it, to demand that it gets tossed out? Isn't that in itself discriminatory, to tell them, "Sorry, can't have that, even though its been that way from the start, and is part of why you joined"?

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TThe majority of the people that believe in God do not condone homosexuality per their religion. That is the way that it is.

 

Stats on that? In the United States, about 90% of the population believes in a higher power, and 70% or so believe in a personal God.

 

57% of Americans, according to a 2008 Gallup poll, believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle. So a very good number of people who believe in God have no problem with homosexuality.

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I've been a Girl Scout leader, too. I think the BSAs response is fine. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong.

 

Did I say it did? I said I disagreed with it and said why. In a discussion, that's par for the course - a person states their opinion and then supports it and/or gives the reason why they think such.

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I really wish I would have done this research 3 months ago BEFORE the sign up.

 

And that, right there, is the reason some of us feel compelled to speak up.

 

(This was not a slam at you, by the way, jenn. It's in response to the whole "why are people whining" comment.)

 

I always speak up when BSA gets discussed, because I don't want any more families signing up and then feeling trapped.

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Stats on that? In the United States, about 90% of the population believes in a higher power, and 70% or so believe in a personal God.

 

57% of Americans, according to a 2008 Gallup poll, believe that homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle. So a very good number of people who believe in God have no problem with homosexuality.

 

Give me stats that most religious folks, not culturally religious, condone homosexuality. Find me stats that say members already involved in the BSA are unhappy with this ruling? The demise of BSA won't be the homosexuality issue, it will be the changes made from coercion from people that are pro-homosexual wanting to destroy it.

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And that, right there, is the reason some of us feel compelled to speak up.

 

(This was not a slam at you, by the way, jenn. It's in response to the whole "why are people whining" comment.)

 

I always speak up when BSA gets discussed, because I don't want any more families signing up and then feeling trapped.

 

That is understandable. I don't want people signing up for something they haven't researched. It's surprising to that people would put their kids in something that they didn't research. If someone joins scouts and finds they don't like it or have conflicting beliefs they don't have to stay, and they aren't trapped. :001_smile:

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Bigot was used. If you can't find it then it was edited out. I said the majority of the religious members religion's do not condone homosexuality. You can make as many links as you want, but I stand behind that statement.

 

She's providing support for her stance - effectively, standing behind it in a useful way that the rest of us can measure.

 

Just saying, "I stand behind that statement," provides nothing useful. I can say, "unicorns have been shown to have a high tolerance for lead," and maintain that I stand behind it but that not the same as providing any reasonable support for my statement.

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Yup. And how is it fair, for all the families currently involved in BSA, who are pleased with the organization and likely part of the attraction is because of the faith inclusion rather than despite it, to demand that it gets tossed out? Isn't that in itself discriminatory, to tell them, "Sorry, can't have that, even though its been that way from the start, and is part of why you joined"?

 

I actually agree with you, which is why I'm not in favor of "working for change from within."

 

If people want that kind of organization for their children, they have a right to it, as long as it remains privately supported and as long as the rest of us have the right to speak up and tell the world we think their policies are wrong.

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That is understandable. I don't want people signing up for something they haven't researched. It's surprising to that people would put their kids in something that they didn't research. If someone joins scouts and finds they don't like it or have conflicting beliefs they don't have to stay, and they aren't trapped. :001_smile:

 

They may feel trapped, because their children love the camping and the popcorn sales and the uniforms and, at that point, neither know nor care about the policies of the larger organization. That's what I meant.

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I don't think I actually called you a bigot. I believe (and please do correct me, in which case I'll apologize) that I may have said the polcies were bigoted?

 

If you didn't say bigot, then I apologize. I am a bit heated on this subject today. Ack. I broke my rule of not getting involved in heated or controversial threads.

 

You guys do have a right to speak out with your beliefs. You do. Do I get tired of what feels like bashing? Yeah, but oh well. Gotta get off the computer and get to work. Have a great day.

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My DH and a number of my male friends had really good experiences as Boy Scouts, and none recall there being an emphasis on religion. A couple reported having openly gay people in their group when they were older, and one had a gay leader. (They were all in the northeast or northwest, though.) I realize that officially policy would allow the BSA to crack down on that, but in areas that aren't particularly conservative, where the parents aren't looking for an overtly religious experience and don't care about whether or not somebody is gay, it seems like there are troops where those things aren't made an issue. I could be wrong, though.

 

I was really against Boy Scouts, and wasn't going to let DS do it, but my DH (who's agnostic) convinced me that, as long as we were good with the local leader and local group, it would be something to let him try. So, he's going to give it a try this year. If it seemed like he was seriously into scouting, though, I'd probably look for a different organization. At the level of Cub Scouts and just attending weekly meetings, I doubt any of this will be a huge issue, but if he got into scouting, it likely would be, and at that point I'd prefer he chose an alternative. But, really, I'll probably leave it ultimately up to him, and just make sure that we teach our values regarding religious tolerance and homosexuality well enough at home that he doesn't just buy into the BSA stance on it.

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And that, right there, is the reason some of us feel compelled to speak up.

 

(This was not a slam at you, by the way, jenn. It's in response to the whole "why are people whining" comment.)

 

I always speak up when BSA gets discussed, because I don't want any more families signing up and then feeling trapped.

 

And I thank you for the responses. I really didn't mean for this to become a religion in BSA debate, but I really didn't know how far their stance on it went. I am definitely kicking myself more than anything. What's really funny, I never let my DD do GS because the groups around here are religious, but I always associated Boy Scouts with camping and boy stuff, not religion.

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Give me stats that most religious folks, not culturally religious, condone homosexuality. Find me stats that say members already involved in the BSA are unhappy with this ruling? The demise of BSA won't be the homosexuality issue, it will be the changes made from coercion from people that are pro-homosexual wanting to destroy it.

 

You made the first claim. It's disingenuous to make a claim with no support and then go demanding others support their claims.

 

I think bad logic derails a thread faster then the odd use of a term like "bigot".

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I just think we also have the right to refuse to participate in such organizations and to voice our opinion about institutionalized bigotry when the subject arises.

 

There it is.

 

I didn't call you or anyone else here "a bigot." I referred to the policies of the BSA regarding atheists and homosexuals "institutionalized bigotry."

 

And I stand by that statement.

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You made the first claim. It's disingenuous to make a claim with no support and then go demanding others support their claims.

 

I think bad logic derails a thread faster then the odd use of a term like "bigot".

 

No, if there wasn't support for the BSAs way of doing things then people wouldn't join. I think you are deflecting.

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There it is.

 

I didn't call you or anyone else here "a bigot." I referred to the policies of the BSA regarding atheists and homosexuals "institutionalized bigotry."

 

And I stand by that statement.

 

Okay, but just because you have an opinion doesn't mean I won't disagree and say so.

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No, if there wasn't support for the BSAs way of doing things then people wouldn't join. I think you are deflecting.

 

Do you really think that everybody who has a child in the BSA supports their policies on religion and homosexuality?

 

As I noted above, I'll be letting DS join a Cub Scout group (pack?) this year. I do not, and my husband does not, agree at all with the BSA's stances on religion and on homosexuality. I would much prefer an organization that was religiously inclusive and welcoming to GLBT people at all levels.

 

But, we don't have an organization like that around here. And, after talking about it with my DH and friends who were scouts, I decided that it was okay, at this point, to let DS enjoy the positive aspects of the organization, since I don't imagine that either religious intolerance or homophobia will be an issue right now. If it did become an issue--if kids were turned away from his troop for not believing in God or there were anti-gay attitudes expressed by the leaders--we'd pull him. But assuming those things don't happen, I'm willing to suck it up and accept that the organization has some really, really terrible policies but still let my son be a part of it right now. If they asked my opinion, though, I'd let them know that I'd like to see those policies changed.

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And I thank you for the responses. I really didn't mean for this to become a religion in BSA debate, but I really didn't know how far their stance on it went. I am definitely kicking myself more than anything. What's really funny, I never let my DD do GS because the groups around here are religious, but I always associated Boy Scouts with camping and boy stuff, not religion.

 

I didn't realize how deeply ingrained the religion was either. Even in Scouts Canada. I was talking to a former Scout leader and he mentioned the time they had an excellent candidate for leader who put "atheist" on the application. He was saying how he wished the guy had fudged a bit because there was no way they could accept him after that (and know I know I was worng earlier when I said I thought Scouts Canada didn't discriminate on the basis of religion - I'd forgotten this). I was taken aback, my husband (the best man I know) is agnostic. He couldn't lead Scouts if he wanted?

 

It makes sense I guess. If you've got an emphasis on faith you probably don't want an atheist leading the group anymore then you'd want a creationist leading a secular science co-op or a dog trainer teaching you how to look after chickens. You want someone who share certain views.

 

Still, I don't think the BSA or Scouts Canada has done a good job in communicating that message. They're known for the skills and camping and they seem content to leave that as their public image.

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Do you really think that everybody who has a child in the BSA supports their policies on religion and homosexuality?

 

As I noted above, I'll be letting DS join a Cub Scout group (pack?) this year. I do not, and my husband does not, agree at all with the BSA's stances on religion and on homosexuality. I would much prefer an organization that was religiously inclusive and welcoming to GLBT people at all levels.

 

But, we don't have an organization like that around here. And, after talking about it with my DH and friends who were scouts, I decided that it was okay, at this point, to let DS enjoy the positive aspects of the organization, since I don't imagine that either religious intolerance or homophobia will be an issue right now. If it did become an issue--if kids were turned away from his troop for not believing in God or there were anti-gay attitudes expressed by the leaders--we'd pull him. But assuming those things don't happen, I'm willing to suck it up and accept that the organization has some really, really terrible policies but still let my son be a part of it right now. If they asked my opinion, though, I'd let them know that I'd like to see those policies changed.

 

Obvioulsly, you have to decide what is best for your family.

 

And, for what it's worth, I have a good friend who made the same decision you did.

 

However, I do think you might want to do a little more research. The BSA of today is quite different that it was when your husband was likely involved. As I understand it, they have become much more conservative in their policies and more stringent in enforcing them.

 

The other trap that some of our friends have found is that these things are not a big problem when little boys get started. However, if they stick with it and become really committed to advancing in the organization, the problems get bigger.

 

As I said, we all have to decide what works for us. I just think it's important that people making these decisions have as much information as possible.

 

Best of luck to you!

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Yup. And how is it fair, for all the families currently involved in BSA, who are pleased with the organization and likely part of the attraction is because of the faith inclusion rather than despite it, to demand that it gets tossed out? Isn't that in itself discriminatory, to tell them, "Sorry, can't have that, even though its been that way from the start, and is part of why you joined"?

 

Personally, I'm fine with their policies. As long as individual troops aren't sponsored by PTA's and public schools (and other orgs that are welcoming to all). If it's privately supported, rock on! :thumbup1:

 

We had no problem starting up our own campfire troop. It's been a good fit for us, but it's obviously been a bunch more work than dropping your child off at an established group.

 

And I do know locally there has been moves for change from within. I know more than a few BSA families here that are not conservatively religious and support Gay rights.

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