Jeannie in NJ Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 yesterday morning (I think around 11 ) it was the last day of football practice at a local high school (about 10 min from my house). All the players, coaches and families were caravaning in several cars to eat at a restuarant. One van had 8 boys with a 17 year old driving. He went up a crest at a exit on the Parkway, encountered heavy traffic, applied his brakes and the van rolled several times. Four boys were ejected (one was hit by oncoming traffic) these 4 died, the other 4 are in the hospital. Our area is in deep shock and mourning. Please pray for all the families affected. It is a lead story on yahoo news. Every year, we lose a few teens in car accidents, usually involving drinking but this tragedy is overwelming, no drinking, just a horrible freak accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie75 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 So, so sad. My prayers go out to the families of those boys. That is one of my worst nightmares as a parent. :( :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 This is an example of why I want my children to be driven by adults. Maturity comes with age and experience. I drove at 16 but it's a wonder nothing happened. (and I was careful) So sorry for the families and the teens involved.... what a horrible tragedy. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renee in NC Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 What a terrible thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 The driver was my MIL's, cousin's child. They were students at the high school DH graduated from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TN Mama Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 How tragic. Praying for all involved and affected. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom4him Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 This is an example of why I want my children to be driven by adults. Maturity comes with age and experience. I drove at 16 but it's a wonder nothing happened. (and I was careful) So sorry for the families and the teens involved.... what a horrible tragedy. :( :iagree:I so agree. Praying for all involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 My heart goes out to all the families...prayers for peace and comfort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeannie in NJ Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Oh Dorothy, that is so sad that he was a member of your in-laws extended family. A parent's worst nightmare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 yesterday morning (I think around 11 ) it was the last day of football practice at a local high school (about 10 min from my house). All the players, coaches and families were caravaning in several cars to eat at a restuarant. One van had 8 boys with a 17 year old driving. He went up a crest at a exit on the Parkway, encountered heavy traffic, applied his brakes and the van rolled several times. Four boys were ejected (one was hit by oncoming traffic) these 4 died, the other 4 are in the hospital. Our area is in deep shock and mourning. Please pray for all the families affected. It is a lead story on yahoo news. Every year, we lose a few teens in car accidents, usually involving drinking but this tragedy is overwelming, no drinking, just a horrible freak accident. Kind of. I mean, it sounds like the kids were piled in without seatbelts. That's a little more than a freak accident. This is why I support laws that limit who a teenage driver can drive around. Inexperience + teenage arrogance + the distraction of having a car full of friends= tragedy. My best friend in high school was in a horrible accident which killed another friend under very similar circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheri Warren Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 This is an example of why I want my children to be driven by adults. Maturity comes with age and experience. I drove at 16 but it's a wonder nothing happened. (and I was careful) So sorry for the families and the teens involved.... what a horrible tragedy. :( I totally agree. My teenagers are not allowed to be driven with other teenagers. ONly me, their father or grown adults. What about seatbelts? Were they wearing any?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheri Warren Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 No seatbelts, inexperienced driver does not equal "freak accident" sorry for the loss though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abbeyej Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Oh, those families! How utterly, utterly awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmichigan Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 The driver was my MIL's, cousin's child. They were students at the high school DH graduated from. I am very sorry for your family and all involved. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 My mom told me about this today, and I looked it up online. So horrible! I'm sorry for all connected to this tragedy! :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Not all of them were wearing seatbelts. The driver was 17, which makes it illegal for him to be driving with more than one other person (non family) in the car. It's always sad when something like this happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoPlaceLikeHome Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 :grouphug:How horrible. I have also heard that some vans are very prone to tipping/rollovers. It is 15 passenger vans from what I recall. They did a expose on this on one of the networks several years back:(. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 So sorry to hear about this tragedy. The news here is reporting the that vehicle was a Ford Explorer. I was surprised that the Garden State Parkway is open to holders of a probationary license, whether the parent/gardian is in the vehicle or not. That road is just too busy. Also surprised the school allowed this mode of transport...here it's out due to the liability issues -- athletes can't drive themselve to games/meets either - only to school. Parents must be the drivers to away practices even if the athlete is 18 & licensed. I am a little surprised the school allowed it since this appears to be at least semi-official function. Unfortunately the Parkway is actually easier to drive than some of the other highways in NJ. Even a lot of the tolls are now Express ones where you don't even have to slow down, merge in or do anything but continue as you have been. Route 80 with its horrendous rush hour and constant construction, Route 15 with its extreme changes in elevation and freak weather patterns, all of them with 65 mph speed limits and most people driving 80mph. NJ is not a fun place for new drivers. Very close to home for me - my dd just recently got her license and has been out driving by herself for the first time this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisamarie Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) My prayers go out to all involved and their families. I cannot even imagine. Not all of them were wearing seatbelts. The driver was 17, which makes it illegal for him to be driving with more than one other person (non family) in the car. Is the driver at risk of being charged with something because of this? We had a similar case in my area except alcohol was involved--the driver crashed, killed 4 teens, was tried and sentenced and is now in jail. So very sad. ETA: I just looked up the story and see that the driver was one of those killed so my question does not apply--Dottieanna, I am very sorry for your family's loss. Edited August 21, 2011 by lisamarie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Thank you for all the kind thoughts. I have never met the boy or his parents but MIL is here staying with us for the weekend. Her grandson (dh's nephew), who dh is very close to and takes out fishing all the time, is also on the Mainland football team but as a freshman. He probably knows and is friends with some of the boys involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzymom Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I'm so sorry. We've been reading about this and have all just been horrified. In many parts of NJ, you cannot get anywhere without getting on a highway. The Parkway is not terrible compared to many of the others, but a Saturday morning when everyone is beachbound the congestion is awful. Keeping the families in our prayers, and reminding our kids to wear their seatbelts every.single.time.:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 First, let me say that no matter the circumstances, my heart goes out to the families and the friends of those killed. One of my best friends was killed whan I was a teen, and it stays with you forever. However, I am really, really hacked off at the adults who were there. What in the world were they thinking allowing a teen (no matter who he was, he's a teen = an inexperienced driver) to drive a carful of other kids? Right now dh and I own the Meanest Parents in The World championship belt, because ds#3 is grounded from all driving for a month, except for the 8 blocks to work and back. It's a huge hassle for us, because we are having to drive him to worthwhile things 12 miles away that we aren't going to cancel. For years we told our kids that they could not drive with any friends who had not had their full license for two years, and then, they could not drive with that somewhat more experienced friend unless it was just three of them in the car, no more. (That was an arbitrary number, but chosen on purpose ahead of time, to provide more accountability and safety in guy/girl transportation situations.) Our elder two kids never had any problem accepting our rules, but now suddenly we have a new driver (DL in March) who is the first of all his friends to get his license. And he wants to drive them around. And state law is much more lenient than we are. But I don't want to be the parent whose kid was driving the accident vehicle, nor the parent who gets a life changing call. Ds has chafed under the restriction, and thought he'd see what he could get away with, after all the trips were only 6 or 8 blocks--from church to the Sonic, and from church to his friend's closeby house. Um, no! Willful disobedience led to grounding. And now he'll get a chance to read about this accident, and maybe it'll put a tiny tear in his suit of InvicibleWear. Sigh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeannie in NJ Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 dh and I were just talking about this with our teen dd, who is raring to get her permit. Why did the coaches not put the word out that parents needed to volunteer to drive , as in a parent in each car, even if each car had 6 or 8 teens but with a parent driving and if they did not get those volunteers then the outing would be canceled. Plus it is against the law in NJ for a 17 year old to drive more than one non-family member. Some adults dropped the ball here. It makes us angry (we lost our neice at age 18 about 10 years ago in a car accident and it was just her and her cousin in the car. The exit where this accident yesterday happened is the same exit that dd (age 16) will be taking for her cc classes, needless to say, I will be driving her to college until she is at least 18, maybe longer. It is a bad exit for merging into traffic, I am nervous sometimes merging in there and I have been driving forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 This is an example of why I want my children to be driven by adults. Maturity comes with age and experience. I drove at 16 but it's a wonder nothing happened. (and I was careful) So sorry for the families and the teens involved.... what a horrible tragedy. :( :iagree: I think I did okay at 16 because it was so rural. No freeways, on ramps, merging, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetBean Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: How horrific. *I* get nervous on the parkway, but for those that live down there-it IS the only way to access certain areas. But on a Sat morning when shore traffic is at it's highest--and one of the LAST weekends of the summer? Edited August 22, 2011 by justamouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetBean Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 :iagree: I think I did okay at 16 because it was so rural. No freeways, on ramps, merging, etc. Me too. Now we are also in NJ, and I have big concerns about my DD getting her permit. She is almost 17, and we have been putting it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I am so sorry...it is just so hard to understand why tragedy like that has to hit at all. Two years ago, our very small community lost two middle school aged boys in a tragic motorcycle accident. No one was drunk and although some (dumb) mistakes were made on the part of the young boys, it was nothing more than a freak accident. We were all shaken to the core over this. I remember going to the funerals - I worked with the boys when my son went to ps and I volunteered in the schools. It is something that will not soon be forgotten. May God be with those families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeannie in NJ Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 I forgot to mention that merging at this particular exit from the Parkway onto the Expressway, you are merging into the FAST lane and you usually need to be going a decent speed in order to be able to merge, no stopping and then trying to merge. Now being a Sat and shore traffic, the traffic was very slow,( if barely moving) but the driver may have been going the usual speed to merge and then came upon the very slow traffic. THe news said that he braked and that is what flipped the van. I really hate that merging exit there. When traffic is moving fast, sometimes you really have to speed up to get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Me too. Now we are also in NJ, and I have big concerns about my DD getting her permit. She is almost 17, and we have been putting it off. I'm years away, but my plan is to get the permit when we can and do A LOT of parking lot driving early Sunday morning first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi-FL Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) we experienced that here in the spring. the 4 boys were not drinking, but had just come from a football breakfast and actually had friends on the side of the road videotaping them trying to "get air" from an infamous bump at a top of a road where they lost control, crossed the center line and slammed into a couple in a mercedes (who, incidentally, were not hurt). our area is still feeling their loss. prayers to you and all involved- jodi in pa eta: oh, my. i was born in atlantic city, grew up in northfield and ocean city, and many, many of my friends went to mainland. i dated a teacher there years ago (when i was in college) who was killed in a car crash. tight community. so sad. Edited August 22, 2011 by Jodi-FL read the article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ondreeuh Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I'm so sorry. I assume the four that were ejected were not wearing seatbelts? If so, it was a preventable tragedy. How very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LauraGB Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Oh my gosh. What a tragedy. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 :grouphug: How heartbreaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I am so sad to hear this. How awful. I wish every teen could come through the invincible stage unscathed. My dd is getting her permit soon, these stories are terrifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari C in SC Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) This is an example of why I want my children to be driven by adults. Maturity comes with age and experience. I drove at 16 but it's a wonder nothing happened. (and I was careful) So sorry for the families and the teens involved.... what a horrible tragedy. :( :iagree: I have been thinking about this so much. My ds was killed in a car wreck with an 18 year old girl driving. She had only had her car for 3 weeks and only a permitted driver. She had decided to make a 5 hour trip north ALONE, got pulled over for doing 85 in a 55, called my son to get released to a licensed driver. She had already been given a ticket a few days earlier for speeding and driving without a license. The police officer was WELL within his rights, to impound her car. But... he didn't. He released her to my son. She was driving her car 45 minutes later - doing between 70 and 90 in a 55. Came up on a slower car, tried to pass, went head on into a semi. Was my son at fault for not telling her to slow down as the "responsible adult" with her - yes. Was she acting immature and careless having JUST gotten a second ticket - you bet. It all boils down to lack of maturity. This has me not so sure I will let my other two drive or be driven by a teenager in the future. I struggle with both sides because our oldest ds got his license at 16 and was a great driver. If you spend a bit of time on a bereaved parent site though - you find that this story is so common. Teenagers and driving just don't mix. I am so very sorry for these families. It has been a bit over 15 months for us and I still am struggling so much. I have good days and bad days. I do not wish this path on anyone. Edited August 22, 2011 by Kari C in SC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 :iagree: I think I did okay at 16 because it was so rural. No freeways, on ramps, merging, etc. Except that rural, two-lane driving is the most dangerous kind. Two cars coming at each other head-on, both going at least 60 is the majority of the driving dh and I do. We live rurally and we didn't let our oldest get his permit until he turned 18 precisely because of this. I am very much against teens driving. I could be on board with permit at 17, license at 18, severe restrictions for a ticket or accident. The problem is that in the US there is usually no alternative to driving, so the parents must continue to drive the dc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrappyhomeschooler Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 So very sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashfern Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 :grouphug: So sad. Praying for the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sushi's Mom Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I'm sorry to hear about this. My sympathies, especially to you, Kari. How very sad. My daughter is only 9 right now, so we won't have these issues for a while, but I have had issues where I did not let her ride with a friend's mother. I make my daughter still use a high-back booster seat. The mom was going to be driving my daughter somewhere, so I brought the seat into the house. She told me there wasn't enough room in her mini van for the seat, so I asked how many kids were gong to be there. (only one of her children ride in a carseat still.) she said 8. I asked how 8 kids could possibly fit into her mini van. She said, "oh, we double buckle them. We do it all the time." (the moms take turns driving to the activity each week.) I didn't know what that meant. She told me they buckle 2 children into one seatbelt. I got a horrified look on my face, told her I was sorry, but I could not let my daughter ride with her. I drove myself. She was insulted and didn't talk to me for a while. I finally convinced her to let me pick Up her 3 kids each week rather than going with the other moms and being double buckled. (she has 4 kids, but one was only 3 and didn't go to the activity, but when it was her turn to drive, she has to take him along. The other moms had similar situations.) I don't let my daughter ride with other moms very often, but if I do, I always make sure to ask how many children will be in a vehicle and make sure the mom will allow my daughter to use her booster seat. I also have never let my aunt drive her. Aunt lives with my parents and drives my mom around (mom doesn't drive); they always were asking to pick my daughter up to go somewhere. Nope. I have seen aunt drive distracted too many times. She will turn and chat with my mom, or look at a picture in a magazine that my mom is looking at. She also drives backwards in the expressway when she misses her exit. They get so mad at me when I say no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 She said' date=' "oh, we double buckle them. We do it all the time." .... They get so mad at me when I say no.[/quote'] I understand! My friends are not the gossipy-type, so I seriously doubt that they talk about me behind my back, but I have caught them giving each other a bit of a raised-eyebrow about my "overprotective" ways regarding kids in cars. I always ask about the number of kids in the cars and seats, too. The double seatbelt thing really bothers me as well, but I know a number of parents who do it. I've also had to offer to drive some of the kids places, when I've found out that a mom was going to try to pile 50 kids into her minivan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 A 17-year-old driving 8 kids in a van sounds like a recipe for disaster. There weren't enough parents to drive, then? Like the van owner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyinTN Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 My heart is broken for those families. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Anyone have statistics about this double-buckling thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 My dh even freaks if I pop my seat belt off for a moment to reach something in the back seat. For a long time I thought he was being nutty, then a friend's MIL was killed when she took off her seat belt while waiting at a red light, a car behind her plowed into her. That was about four years ago. I never take off my seat belt now. Alley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatmansWife Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I heard this on the news this morning. Tragic and very sad. :grouphug: to Kari :grouphug: I am so very sorry for your loss. What a horrible thing to go through. :crying: I am very overprotective also when it comes to driving & kids. I rarely ever will let my kids get in a car with a driver other than myself or my dh. In our state you can get your permit at 15 (is that everywhere?). I think that is *insanely* too young. My son turned 16 in June and doesn't have it yet. But, he will next month when he starts taking drivers ed. I have mixed feelings about it. I know that after his class and behind the wheel, he'll need to log the required hours with me before going for his license. I won't allow him to take a road test in the winter. So, he won't be doing that until next spring or summer; he'll be 17 then. I really wanted him to wait and do the drivers ed class next summer....but by the time he'd go for his license it would be the following summer and he'd be 18. I can tell you that I don't look forward to sitting in the passenger seat with another teen learning to drive....I had my share of those deathgrips on the door with older dd. I've had my share of people I know getting killed in car accidents and it only adds to being paranoid and overprotective. They were all tragic accidents (my friends mother, an aquaintance and her two little girls), but the worst was a kid I babysat for when I was a teen and he was a little boy....sweetest little thing. He was killed in a motorcycle accident when he was 19 or 20. Just a couple of months later his brother was killed in a car acciedent. A year after the first accident the sister was killed in a car accident. Not kidding. I remember how sweet that mother was and to lose 3 of her 4 children like that. To this day, I don't know how she can cope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puma Mom Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 That's horrible. Even more horrible because of the circumstances. We just moved from NJ, and it is made very, very clear that 17yo drivers can not have more than one passenger in the car. They changed the law so that you can't even drive two of your younger siblings. I was amazed at how often that law was completely ignored by teens and parents both. It was inconvenient to do otherwise. My son could not drive his sister and her friend to a movie. He couldn't take his sister with him to pick up her friend to bring her to our house. It was inconvenient and I didn't always agree with it, but we dealt with it. I also know moms who pile extra teens into their van regularly. To me, it's not worth the risk of being one of those statistics. I feel for the parents of the driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatmansWife Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 That's horrible. Even more horrible because of the circumstances. We just moved from NJ, and it is made very, very clear that 17yo drivers can not have more than one passenger in the car. They changed the law so that you can't even drive two of your younger siblings. I was amazed at how often that law was completely ignored by teens and parents both. It was inconvenient to do otherwise. My son could not drive his sister and her friend to a movie. He couldn't take his sister with him to pick up her friend to bring her to our house. It was inconvenient and I didn't always agree with it, but we dealt with it. I also know moms who pile extra teens into their van regularly. To me, it's not worth the risk of being one of those statistics. I feel for the parents of the driver. :iagree: In our state a student must log 30 hours of driving with their parent, 10 of those hours must be at night. When dd was doing this I strictly kept track of her minutes. By the time she went for her drivers license she had well over that 30 hour minimum. Many of the parents of her friends would fudge the results and lie (they are required to sign a form that their child did log those hours). Why would they do that??? It's only to the benefit of their child for them to have as much practice that they possibly can. I just will never understand why they would do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Except that rural, two-lane driving is the most dangerous kind. Two cars coming at each other head-on, both going at least 60 is the majority of the driving dh and I do. We live rurally and we didn't let our oldest get his permit until he turned 18 precisely because of this. Dangerous as in accidents, but much easier for just toodling along at 55 not having to worry about ramps etc. Accidents can happen to anyone, but I believe learning to drive in busy places takes a learned skill of concentration and blanking out on the non-essential info. To this day, when I'm in heavy traffic, I tell my son to be quiet. And I turn off the radio. If I drove crazy traffic every day, it wouldn't be a big deal. That is why I said that being so rural, with so FEW other moving objects was helpful for me in my early days of driving. But perhaps I'm odd. And it was very rural. You might meet three cars on a 20 mile drive. And in town, nice wide streets, no wild drivers because there were never any jams, few (and gentle) hills, etc. Just not the same as trying to get around Kansas City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.