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Answering questions about Advanced Language Lessons


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For questions about Writing With Skill...see the other thread on this board.

 

Advanced Language Lessons is a grammar-only program designed to go along with Writing With Skill, but also usable with any other composition program.

 

It does not require previous grammar knowledge, although the first level will go more easily if the student has previously used First Language Lessons or another grammar program.

 

1) AVAILABILITY

 

As far as Advanced Language Lessons goes, there's good news, and there's bad news.

 

The good news: If you want to use it this fall, you can have it for free.

 

The bad news: It's going to be PDF and MS only, and I cannot promise you that Level 2 will be ready for Fall 2012, even in PDF and MS form.

 

The writing program is proceeding on schedule. However, I've run into multiple technical issues with this grammar program, and at this point I don't feel comfortable (as I do with the writing program) in telling you that future levels will be available in the fall of each year.

 

We are still on our original publication schedule, just not able to promise that the levels will be available in the fall of each year before pub date.

 

If you're not planning on starting the first level of ALL until fall of 2012, you're just fine. If you decide to do the first level this fall, though, you may need to switch to something else for the fall of 2012.

 

So, having said that:

 

2) INTENDED AGE/GRADE: Level One can be begun by any student at the fifth grade or higher level.

 

Once the four levels of ALL have been finished, the student will have completed the equivalent of a full high school grammar program and will be prepared to go into advanced rhetoric and composition work.

 

3) SCOPE AND SEQUENCE: I have been reluctant to post this because it has been shifting around, and once it's published on the internet it will get copied and reposted without the caveat that this is a WORKING scope and sequence. However, if you'd like the scope and sequence, email Pattie Worth (executiveassistant@welltrainedmind.com).

 

There are 3 lessons per week, 36 weeks of lessons. Every three weeks, the student works through a set of detailed review exercises to check achievement/comprehension of concepts already taught.

 

4) HOW TO USE IT. The first level of ALL, unlike the first level of WWS, is instructor-intensive. The lessons are scripted, like those in FLL, although the tone and content is much more advanced. Levels 2-4 will be student directed.

 

The theory is that many (if not most) students need to be directly taught the foundational concepts of grammar. IF those concepts are properly taught, the student can continue to review and build on them independently.

 

There is only one book for ALL: the instructor portion of each week is followed by tear-out student weeksheets.

 

Questions...?

 

SWB

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Can I hijack? I have a question about your history series.

 

My dd is a 9th grader this year and will be using your History of the Ancient World. Will you be able complete the renaissance and modern history books in time for her to use? What is your projected publication schedule for those?

 

Pretty please?

 

Thanks ever so much!!! :)

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The good news: If you want to use it this fall, you can have it for free.

 

My son is having great success with WWS, so I am interested in trying out ALL with him. How do we get a copy of it for free?

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Can I hijack? I have a question about your history series.

 

My dd is a 9th grader this year and will be using your History of the Ancient World. Will you be able complete the renaissance and modern history books in time for her to use? What is your projected publication schedule for those?

 

Pretty please?

 

Thanks ever so much!!! :)

 

TRYING hard, honest, but it's a huge project and I still have a lot left to do on it. I think 2013 is Norton's projected date.

 

SWB

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He could go straight into R&S 8.

 

SWB

 

You can print out the first five weeks here:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ALL-Grade-5-finalsampleproof.pdf

 

 

If you finish those and want more, email my assistant Pattie Worth: executiveassistant@welltrainedmind.com.

 

SWB

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Dropping in this thread to say that we have used you and your mothers products since the begining of our homeschooling journery 6 years ago. My youngest will be the last to use FLL this year. It's bittersweet because I have had that book since 2003. Every year I re read TWTM and I always learn something new. You have been such and encouragement to me. Thank you for all your hard work. :-)

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Just commenting for the general topic of the thread.

 

My 11yo 5th grader son finished week one of ALL this week and it went very well; I am really pleased with it. He is using it in conjunction with WWS. Previous to doing ALL he completed FLL 3, GWG 4 and GWG5.

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My 12 year old dd covered the first week of ALL this week since our school is back in session. I just want to say that we are LOVING ALL! I hope you can find a way to complete the next level in time for the next school year.

 

Thanks for supplying us with the samples. We are going to continue with this as long as long as you have something for us to do. :)

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Thank you SWB. I did email Pattie about the writing and have received the larger sample of WWS, so we should be covered on that one until it's available for purchase. :)

I'll email her when we get close to finishing the sample of ALL. Our first week was great and I had so much agony on what we were going to use for grammar. I'm glad I had this available to try. :)

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We will be soon done with the first five weeks and I emailed Patty this morning, but was told that additional ALL weeks are not available. This happened this morning before I saw this thread. Should I email her again and refer to this thread? Wanted to let you know that my son loves this book, the first language book he does without complaining and whining. And because English is not my first language I love the scripted lessons.

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Roughly how long do you think each lesson should be? R&S was killing us so we have switched to Winston Grammar but I would love to add this in as well.

 

Hmmm.. I'm never good with time. I never know how long something takes us in school. :) So keep that in mind. We've only done the first week (3 lessons a week) and so far it's been really quick. I think we spend no more than 15-20 minutes.

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He could go straight into R&S 8.

 

SWB

 

Oh, WOW! I'm so glad you said this! I was thinking for some reason that ALL 1 was the equivalent of 5th grade grammar only (ie-R+S 5, which we did this past year), and therefore not usable for us. But it sounds like it is more 5-7th grades, which makes sense, if four yrs of ALL gives all of high school grammar.

 

Wonderful! My "#1 SWB fan" dd11 will be thrilled she can use ALL this year instead of R+S 7, as we planned-thanks!

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We will be soon done with the first five weeks and I emailed Patty this morning, but was told that additional ALL weeks are not available. This happened this morning before I saw this thread. Should I email her again and refer to this thread? Wanted to let you know that my son loves this book, the first language book he does without complaining and whining. And because English is not my first language I love the scripted lessons.

 

Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer! The first five weeks are typeset. The following lessons are still in manuscript. We assumed that people would be starting it in the fall, so that the typeset lessons would take you through the end of September. So the additional ALL lessons won't be available until the first week of October.

 

SWB

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2) INTENDED AGE/GRADE: Level One can be begun by any student at the fifth grade or higher level.

 

Once the four levels of ALL have been finished, the student will have completed the equivalent of a full high school grammar program and will be prepared to go into advanced rhetoric and composition work.

 

The theory is that many (if not most) students need to be directly taught the foundational concepts of grammar. IF those concepts are properly taught, the student can continue to review and build on them independently.

 

 

So if a student is in the late logic stage, has had consistent (but not rigorous) grammar instruction, and demonstrates skill in this area, would Level 1 be a step backward for him? Or would it be a good foundation for a high school level grammar program (something other than R & S)?

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Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer! The first five weeks are typeset. The following lessons are still in manuscript. We assumed that people would be starting it in the fall, so that the typeset lessons would take you through the end of September. So the additional ALL lessons won't be available until the first week of October.

 

SWB

 

Thank you for explaining this. It is good to know that we have to wait only until October.

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Thank you, Susan.

I am not sure how I missed your post but I did. I noticed the link on PHP FB thread. Thanks for all the work you and your staff do to keep us updated!

 

This information is so timely for me. Grammar is my last decison to be made for this year and it looks like I can go right into ALL from FFL even if my daughter is in 7th grade. Seems it maybe review and a tad slow for her but the foundation will have consistancy so that is fine. As long as she finishes all four levels by the end of high school I am comfortable with that. We have loved FLL.

 

I will go look at the links you provided and make my final plans.

Thank you!!

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oh, good heavens, not modern! Not up to that yet. Still working on the 1100-1700 book (volume 3).

 

While I am overjoyed to be able to use these wonderful materials for the next three years of dd's high school journey, I am chagrined too. Any chance you could put the rest of your life and career on hold to finish the modern one in time for my dd's senior year?? ;)

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So if a student is in the late logic stage, has had consistent (but not rigorous) grammar instruction, and demonstrates skill in this area, would Level 1 be a step backward for him? Or would it be a good foundation for a high school level grammar program (something other than R & S)?

 

I think in that case I'd look at a high school grammar program. Stewart English? Warriner's? Voyages in English?

 

You can also email my assistant Pattie (executiveassistant@welltrainedmind.com) and ask her to send you the tentative scope and sequence for ALL, if that would help you make up your mind.

 

SWB

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While I am overjoyed to be able to use these wonderful materials for the next three years of dd's high school journey, I am chagrined too. Any chance you could put the rest of your life and career on hold to finish the modern one in time for my dd's senior year?? ;)

 

Believe me. It's tempting. :tongue_smilie:

 

SWB

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Thank you so much, Susan! I'm excited to start using WWS soon with my 6th-grade son, but I haven't decided about ALL yet. I have a lot of questions that I hope you can answer, as I'm sure they could help others in their long-term planning, as well.

 

I've just emailed Pattie to request the ALL scope and sequence, and I will study that and compare it with Rod and Staff. But I'm hoping you might be willing to give a bit of general comparison of ALL and Rod and Staff.

 

My son used R&S 3-5 successfully, and I had intended to continue with it through high school as you'd recommended in the WTM. Now I'm not so sure. I don't think you'd have written ALL if R&S were all you thought it should be. Can you tell me what we would gain by switching to ALL?

 

I like the idea of being finished with grammar before high school, but is there any other reason to switch? Do both programs cover the same grammatical concepts? Will ALL 1-4 be equivalent to R&S 5-10? If so, I'm wondering how this is possible -- no writing lessons, of course, and less needless repetition in ALL? Is there still adequate review?

 

My oldest may have missed the boat on ALL because of timing, though maybe we could figure something out. What would you say to taking some time out from English grammar to focus on Latin and Spanish, so we can use ALL Levels 1-4 without a break starting in 7th grade, 2012? He wouldn't finish grammar any earlier than with Rod and Staff, but this plan has other benefits, including my not having to buy R&S for him and ALL for my younger boys.

 

Finally, if you could look with me at a long-term plan for my younger children, I'd be very grateful. My second son has just completed FLL 1 and 2. Even before I'd considered ALL, I had been thinking of skipping R&S 3 and starting up again next year with R&S 4 for 4th grade. I think grammar is very important, so I don't want to skimp, but if ALL truly contains all the grammar, can I just teach my children the definitions of the parts of speech as contained in FLL 1 and 2 and then wait for any formal grammar until ALL in 5th? Would that make ALL too challenging? Could I just start formal grammar with R&S 4 in 4th grade, since I already have it, and then go on to ALL in 5th?

 

Thank you again, Susan. We love all of your materials, and I hope we can fit in ALL.

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My son used R&S 3-5 successfully, and I had intended to continue with it through high school as you'd recommended in the WTM. Now I'm not so sure. I don't think you'd have written ALL if R&S were all you thought it should be. Can you tell me what we would gain by switching to ALL?

 

R&S is a good grammar program and I'll continue to recommend it, but it has IMO four drawbacks.

 

1. (Biggest issue) There's not much teaching help for the parent, so if the kid doesn't read the instructions and "get" it, it's a little hard to know where to go from there.

--ALL is scripted, for the first level, for this reason--to help them "get" the basic concepts easily and thoroughly.

 

2. I don't think there's nearly enough review. It teaches a concept and then doesn't come back to it for weeks, sometimes months.

--We have more of a spiral approach with constant review.

 

3. While the composition is a good thorough traditional program, it isn't good for kids who need step-by-step instruction, and I'm also not a fan of combining grammar and writing in the same program, since kids often advance at different rates. (And I think those skills benefit from very different approaches.)

--ALL is just grammar.

 

4. The religious/cultural slant is just not usable for everyone.

 

I like the idea of being finished with grammar before high school, but is there any other reason to switch? Do both programs cover the same grammatical concepts? Will ALL 1-4 be equivalent to R&S 5-10? If so, I'm wondering how this is possible -- no writing lessons, of course, and less needless repetition in ALL? Is there still adequate review?

 

No writing, less repetition in the exercises. Also my assumption is that students who finish ALL before they're done with high school will continue on to study rhetoric, which continues to teach grammar by forcing students to pay close attention to sentence structure and variety.

 

My oldest may have missed the boat on ALL because of timing, though maybe we could figure something out. What would you say to taking some time out from English grammar to focus on Latin and Spanish, so we can use ALL Levels 1-4 without a break starting in 7th grade, 2012? He wouldn't finish grammar any earlier than with Rod and Staff, but this plan has other benefits, including my not having to buy R&S for him and ALL for my younger boys.

 

If he's doing Latin and Spanish, that should provide adequate grammar reinforcement in the meantime. Sounds like a workable plan.

 

Finally, if you could look with me at a long-term plan for my younger children, I'd be very grateful. My second son has just completed FLL 1 and 2. Even before I'd considered ALL, I had been thinking of skipping R&S 3 and starting up again next year with R&S 4 for 4th grade. I think grammar is very important, so I don't want to skimp, but if ALL truly contains all the grammar, can I just teach my children the definitions of the parts of speech as contained in FLL 1 and 2 and then wait for any formal grammar until ALL in 5th? Would that make ALL too challenging? Could I just start formal grammar with R&S 4 in 4th grade, since I already have it, and then go on to ALL in 5th?

 

While you could take a year off grammar without too much damage :001_smile:, I think taking more than a year off, particular after just finishing FLL1 and FLL2, will tend to feel like starting from ground zero when you start back. I think they'll forget it all in the meantime--and although you CAN start ALL from ground zero, it will be much less frustrating if they are already familiar with the basics of the skills covered in the first half, since those skills are taught in a more complex way (and with more exceptions).

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After doing some reading at this forum about FLL 3 and 4, I'm thinking I'll have my four younger boys do this:

 

1st grade - FLL 1

2nd- FLL 2

3rd- begin Latin (and continue Spanish), English grammar: review parts of speech

4th- FLL 4

5th-8th- ALL 1-4

 

My 6th-grader is on this schedule:

 

1st - public school

2nd- public school

3rd- R&S 3

4th- R&S 4

5th- R&S 5

6th- focus on Latin and Spanish

7th-10th- ALL 1-4

 

I'm really excited about grammar now! We liked Rod and Staff, but I think we'll all like FLL and ALL more.

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Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer! The first five weeks are typeset. The following lessons are still in manuscript. We assumed that people would be starting it in the fall, so that the typeset lessons would take you through the end of September. So the additional ALL lessons won't be available until the first week of October.

 

SWB

 

As we work through the sample lessons and find typos or errors, should we send these in, or is the proofing process pretty much done?

 

Also a suggestion, it might be helpful if you can set up a feedback at PHP or a betatesting at PHP email address. That would give us somewhere to send the errata or suggestions we find, without totally bogging down your poor EA.

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How many lesson are there in ALL?

Do the lesson go straight 1-100 like the first 2 years of FLL, or do they go to 90 or so and have additional units like FLL 3 and 4?

Trying to get my lesson planning done and didn't see a table of contents on the sample of ALL like there was for WWS.

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I have a 5th grader that is on the young side. Could the first level of ALL be spread out over 5th and 6th grade if level two isn't done by next year? Or should I use the first level this year for 5th and do R&S for 6th?

 

Thanks,

Renee

 

The bolded is what we plan to do if the second level isn't available for next school year. Crossing my fingers that it is, though. My daughter is really enjoying ALL thus far.

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As we work through the sample lessons and find typos or errors, should we send these in, or is the proofing process pretty much done?

 

Also a suggestion, it might be helpful if you can set up a feedback at PHP or a betatesting at PHP email address. That would give us somewhere to send the errata or suggestions we find, without totally bogging down your poor EA.

 

Don't worry about typos. If you have feedback on the clarity of the lessons or the scope and sequence, that would be helpful.

 

The executiveassistant@welltrainedmind.com IS the suggestions/errata/contact email for ALL/WWS. Just don't use poor Pattie's other address any more!

 

SWB

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How many lesson are there in ALL?

Do the lesson go straight 1-100 like the first 2 years of FLL, or do they go to 90 or so and have additional units like FLL 3 and 4?

Trying to get my lesson planning done and didn't see a table of contents on the sample of ALL like there was for WWS.

 

36 weeks of 3 lessons per week.

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I have a 5th grader that is on the young side. Could the first level of ALL be spread out over 5th and 6th grade if level two isn't done by next year? Or should I use the first level this year for 5th and do R&S for 6th?

 

Thanks,

Renee

 

Either scenario would work. This would depend on the speed at which the child works and how full is/her academic schedule already is.

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R&S is a good grammar program and I'll continue to recommend it, but it has IMO four drawbacks.

 

1. (Biggest issue) There's not much teaching help for the parent, so if the kid doesn't read the instructions and "get" it, it's a little hard to know where to go from there.

--ALL is scripted, for the first level, for this reason--to help them "get" the basic concepts easily and thoroughly.

 

2. I don't think there's nearly enough review. It teaches a concept and then doesn't come back to it for weeks, sometimes months.

--We have more of a spiral approach with constant review.

 

Wow! I just looked at the samples of FLL 4 for the first time. This looks so much better than R&S. I think this would have saved a lot of frustration for my older son, who went through R&S 3-5. I used to be a writer and editor so understand the grammar pretty well, but this is still so helpful to me as the teacher. I thought I didn't like scripted lessons. :blushing: I like the way diagrams are taught, especially. My son did well with R&S, but it is comforting to know I'll have FLL 4 on hand for my second son when my oldest starts ALL. If Son #1 needs extra work on anything, we can go back to FLL 4 for review. He learned these things in R&S, but I think FLL just explains things in a more-clear way.

 

Also, I'd always thought of R&S as having way too much review, but after SWB mentioned the spiral approach of FLL and ALL and after thinking more about FLL 1-2, which I've used, FLL/ALL really does seem more likely to produce long-term results.

 

Thank you so much for this grammar program!! Now I'm just not sure I want to take a year off of grammar for Latin/Spanish. I shouldn't have told my boys that plan, 'cause now I think they'd revolt if I tried to stick English grammar back in (and I don't think I can fit grammar into the schedule now anyway).

 

Getting excited for next year already!

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3) SCOPE AND SEQUENCE: I have been reluctant to post this because it has been shifting around, and once it's published on the internet it will get copied and reposted without the caveat that this is a WORKING scope and sequence. However, if you'd like the scope and sequence, email Pattie Worth (executiveassistant@welltrainedmind.com).

 

 

I requested this and was told it's not available. Should I try again in a month or two?

 

There is only one book for ALL: the instructor portion of each week is followed by tear-out student weeksheets.

 

Will a separate PDF of just student pages be available, like SOTW? This would be much more convenient for printing.

 

Thank you!

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I have a fifth grader who is rather advanced in grammar. I tried to e-mail your assistant for the rest of ALL and received no response (days ago).

 

You can print out the first five weeks here:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ALL-Grade-5-finalsampleproof.pdf

 

 

If you finish those and want more, email my assistant Pattie Worth: executiveassistant@welltrainedmind.com.

 

SWB

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In case anybody from the overmind is reading this thread... typo on "page iii":

"...Taking students from basic definitions (“A noun is the name of a person, place, thin, or idea”) ..."

 

I know it will be professionally proofed, but I thought I'd point this out bc it jumped out at me right now. And frankly, with all the typos I've seen in professional books lately, I don't really trust the editors to do their job. :-(

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Can WWS and ALL be used if you have never used any of the FLL or WWE series?

I have a 7th grader.

Has never done narrations or summarizing before.

Will Volume 1 be done this year?

Will volumes 2, 3 and 4 be out in 2012,13, and 14?

 

We never used FLL or WWE, however since we are Charlotte Mason inspired we have done narrations before. My dd is 7th grade and doing really well with ALL and WWS so far. I think the grammar would be just fine to jump right in. With WWS,I say you should give it a try. The 5 week sample is available on SWB's blog. If you find your child is having trouble summarizing then you may need to take a little time there or back up to WWE 4.

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ok here's my scenario, any advice would be greatly appreciated. Warning this is long.

 

My oldest is 12 and will start 7th grade. LA is not my favorite area, and in trying to find something that worked for us we bounced around a lot. He's had some grammar but not much stuck other than the part of FLL3 we did the end of last year (we barely scratched the surface and only made it to lesson 9).

I bought JAG to use for this year (we don't start until the 19th due to my dh deploying soon and having to move away from us recently) which we'd tried before but usually by about unit 4 he crashes and burns. He really liked FLL3 for those few weeks we used it and even said SWB was a genius) We also used about the first 1/4 of WWE 3 and the first draft of the WWS beta testing. He enjoyed those as much as a kid that hates to write enjoyed them. We used some of IEW SWIA for a while too and that was ok but I like SWBs approach to writing better.

 

 

Now the next student

My dd is going to be 10 in Nov, but she has some issues that will require vision therapy, and she can't read well on her own. She can read Magic Tree House, but it takes here about 45 minutes just to read one chapter in it. Due to her reading problems she doesn't write well, but can give an oral narration very well and enjoyed using parts of WWE 1 last year. She's had no grammar exposure at all other than about the first 21 lessons of FLL 1 last year (which she enjoyed)

I was thinking of using FLL 3 for her (and just helping her with spelling/acting as her scribe if needed) and PAL writing.

 

Now that our start date is getting nearer, I'm worried about the choices I made of JAG and IEW for writing. So here are my questions.

 

What would you use for him? I have FLL 3 and 4 here as well as WWE 3 and would gladly buy 4 if anyone thought that would be a better fit for him. (the WWE 3 narrations were really tough for him, but he loved the challenge)

 

What about for her, should I do any grammar or hold off until next year? Keep using WWE (using level 2 this year and helping or modifying dictation as needed)?

 

Thanks in advance for all that were brave enough to read this crazy novel of a post and for any that offer advice.

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