Question for dd 5, math [warning, long]

[newlifemom]

So in case any of you are wondering, I have officially sat down and begun [it is begun right? the have is at the beginning of the compound verb] anyway, lesson planning. A little backstory first.

 

DD5 is pretty smart, ornery but smart. She is finally going to have an official schedule for school. I have to say she is fairly excited about it. I am changing pretty much everything for her for several reasons. The main one is I am finally learning that less is more. :D She has not been tested or anything but has shown an unusual aptitude for math since she was two. Last year any 'school' we did centered around Miquon and the rods. She has basic knowledge of her facts [not quick but still knows them] Can count past 100 easily, I haven't checked for higher so I don't really know if she can count any higher. She has known her ordinal numbers forever. I do want to make sure there are no gaps though and she loves math. So how does this sound?

 

I am going to do a combo of Saxon 1 and Singapore 1B. I have taught both and think that she is capable of handling it easily. I do want to make sure things are cemented though and I want her to really explore mental math while not neglecting things that I believe are best learned and reinforced with repetition and duration.

 

So if you have gotten to the bottom of this long post, does this sound doable?

 

FTR, I am only doing phonics with OPGTR [she is reading, but I want to make sure there are no phonics gaps] and memory work [which I don't stress as much with her] from Classical Conversations.

 

I am not going to do any formal science/grammar/history. Only what she gets from memory work and books I have lying around from the library. ;)

 

TIA

[Crimson Wife]

I borrowed a copy of Saxon 1 last year from our virtual charter's lending library, and having looked through it several times before deciding it wouldn't be a good fit for DS, I think a bright child who can handle Singapore 1B would be pretty bored by Saxon 1. Saxon has the reputation of running below grade level in the primary years- is there a reason why you aren't going with Saxon 2? :confused:

[newlifemom]

Well, she is only going into K so I was a touch uncomfortable going higher than Saxon 1. I think it might be very easy for her, but that is why I was also doing Singapore 1B I am assuming by the middle of the year I will move to Singapore 2A. The thing I like about Saxon is the meeting and the repetition. The thing I like about Singapore is the mental math and the way they deal with numeracy.

 

Do you really think a K could go straight into Saxon 2? [i am asking that honestly.]

[Spy Car]

So in case any of you are wondering, I have officially sat down and begun [it is begun right? the have is at the beginning of the compound verb] anyway, lesson planning. A little backstory first.

 

DD5 is pretty smart, ornery but smart. She is finally going to have an official schedule for school. I have to say she is fairly excited about it. I am changing pretty much everything for her for several reasons. The main one is I am finally learning that less is more. :D She has not been tested or anything but has shown an unusual aptitude for math since she was two. Last year any 'school' we did centered around Miquon and the rods. She has basic knowledge of her facts [not quick but still knows them] Can count past 100 easily, I haven't checked for higher so I don't really know if she can count any higher. She has known her ordinal numbers forever. I do want to make sure there are no gaps though and she loves math. So how does this sound?

 

I am going to do a combo of Saxon 1 and Singapore 1B. I have taught both and think that she is capable of handling it easily. I do want to make sure things are cemented though and I want her to really explore mental math while not neglecting things that I believe are best learned and reinforced with repetition and duration.

 

So if you have gotten to the bottom of this long post, does this sound doable?

 

FTR, I am only doing phonics with OPGTR [she is reading, but I want to make sure there are no phonics gaps] and memory work [which I don't stress as much with her] from Classical Conversations.

 

I am not going to do any formal science/grammar/history. Only what she gets from memory work and books I have lying around from the library. ;)

 

TIA

 

This sentence scares me. I'm not 100% what you mean, but it scares me anyway :D

 

You said in the post you'd discovered "less is more." But then here you seem to be saying "more is more." Which is it?

 

She loves math, don't kill it.

 

I would find fun things to do, and intriguing type problems to keep the excitement of learning up, rather than just doubling down on more work.

 

Have you taken a look at the MEP materials? If you only cherry-picked some Lesson Plan activities and some of the intriguing problems from the student workbooks it would add some fun, novelty and mental challenge to your mix.

 

Don't forget (for yourself) to keep looking into the Miquon Lab Annotations book as you explore new topics in Primary Mathematics as it will help round out what you can bring in as a math teacher.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Bill

[boscopup]

I borrowed a copy of Saxon 1 last year from our virtual charter's lending library, and having looked through it several times before deciding it wouldn't be a good fit for DS, I think a bright child who can handle Singapore 1B would be pretty bored by Saxon 1. Saxon has the reputation of running below grade level in the primary years- is there a reason why you aren't going with Saxon 2? :confused:

 

:iagree: If you want to use Saxon, I think Saxon 2 might be more appropriate. My son used Saxon 1 in first grade at school, and he was bored to tears. I used Math Mammoth 1 (which doesn't go as fast as Singapore 1 does), and he was so much happier. At that time, he tested into Saxon 2.

 

You can take a placement test on Saxon's website.

[onaclairadeluna]

Have you taken a look at the MEP materials? If you only cherry-picked some Lesson Plan activities and some of the intriguing problems from the student workbooks it would add some fun, novelty and mental challenge to your mix.

 

 

MEP is amazing!!!!!!! I think today I just decided to ditch Singapore and go with it. :auto:

 

The best judge of your plan is your child. See how it goes. You may find you don't need quite so much repetition. My son went through singapore only doing about half the problems. My daughter does about 2/3 or so. Some kids find they need more than what is in those little workbooks. You'll be able to tell once you get going with your year.

[newlifemom]

After doing Singapore with 4 other children last year, varying levels and I do not like how they do $ and time in particular. I like the repetition of the meeting. Now that doesn't mean I don't tweak those meetings after I can tell they really know that particular thing [counting coins or skip counting a certain #, or calendar work]. In my neophyte brain and [i suppose for some limited] anecdotal experience, I see value to repetition with those types of things. I also see value in being able to recite facts quickly w/o error. However, I also see value in being able to pull #s apart and think about problems in a more realistic setting that Singapore provides. I also like the imagination the Miquon provides. I would love a program that combines all of those components.

 

With this dd, I do expect to be skipping over things that are obvious, however, she is still learning how to write #s and routinely does so backwards.

 

I gave her the placement test from Saxon and she landed squarely in 1. I do think though that we might breeze through it b/c the areas that gave her trouble were things I had never taught her. She has never done any calendar work or been taught anything about $. However, she can count past well past 100 and skip counts and had no problem with any of the patterns.

 

And Bill, I do want math to be fun. When she did the placement test, she really was having fun with some of the things she had to do and certainly looked at things differently than her sibling probably would have.

 

All I can say is I want it all. :tongue_smilie:

[Spy Car]

 

All I can say is I want it all. :tongue_smilie:

 

So "more is more" and "less is more"? :D

 

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Plus we used an almost uncountable number of different resources at this age, so "more is more" works for me :tongue_smilie:

 

Plus, while my son's school did not use Saxon, they did do a daily meeting type thing working on coins, time, days of the week, month and school year.

 

I agree that the time unit in Singapore 1 is not anything extraordinary.

 

The only thing I would make sure you include is some amount of work that engages the logical reasoning part of her mind. That will keep math a mentally interesting subject.

 

Bill

[newlifemom]

The only thing I would make sure you include is some amount of work that engages the logical reasoning part of her mind. That will keep math a mentally interesting subject.

 

Bill

 

First of all What I meant when I said less is more was in terms of total subjects overall. I want to do a lot of math with her b/c I think she likes it and can handle it. That is why I am not doing a standard package K curriculum like I did with my other children.

 

And I promise to engage the logical reasoning part of her mind. I have already started some simple logic problems ala critical thinking company. :D

[boscopup]

Could you just do the meeting portion of Saxon and not bore her with the rest of it?

 

I do agree about the meeting part. My son knew calendar, skip counting, and money like the back of his hand after Saxon K. It was the worksheets in Saxon 1 that bored him to death. While they were doing page long math facts practice, there were still problems like "color 5 blocks red. How many are left?" I don't mind a little review, but something like that is foundational to understanding the math facts, so if it's not mastered already, why are they moving on?

[newlifemom]

Could you just do the meeting portion of Saxon and not bore her with the rest of it?

 

I do agree about the meeting part. My son knew calendar, skip counting, and money like the back of his hand after Saxon K. It was the worksheets in Saxon 1 that bored him to death. While they were doing page long math facts practice, there were still problems like "color 5 blocks red. How many are left?" I don't mind a little review, but something like that is foundational to understanding the math facts, so if it's not mastered already, why are they moving on?

 

Maybe, but I do want to go over writing #s with her so I won't in the beginning. I will assess and see where she needs reinforcements and where it is simply too easy. I have a feeling she will fly through a lot of it. I am nervous about gaps though.

[Crimson Wife]

Do you really think a K could go straight into Saxon 2? [i am asking that honestly.]

 

I haven't seen Saxon 2, but Saxon 1 did strike me as being more Kindergarten level than 1st grade. If Saxon 2 is more like a first grade level, I don't think there would be any problems starting a bright K student in it.

 

Looking at the scope & sequence, it appears that just about everything covered in Saxon 1 is reviewed in Saxon 2. The exceptions are counting by 100's (reviewed in Saxon 3) and identifying the weather (easy to teach on your own).

[TracyR]

Personally after much experience, I would work on math facts first before diving into that much math. My 5yr old is working on Christian Light's math and I think its plenty of work. I would think doing Saxon 1 and Singapore 1B would be overkill. Even for a bright child. I think you should really pick one over the other really.

 

But then if you feel her days spent doing lots of math won't overload her then go for it. But I do think that the Singapore 1B and Saxon 1 won't really mesh with each other because your talking about two different types of math programs. Saxon tends to be really, really slow in the K-3.

 

I would say that Christian Light's 100 level would actually be ahead of Saxon 1, yet its more gentle so even a 5 yr old can use it. I started their 100 level with my daughter when she was 4 nearing 5 and she loves it. I think that their 100 level would definitely mix well with Singapore 1B though.

[Meriwether]

So "more is more" and "less is more"? :D

 

I'm just playing devil's advocate. Plus we used an almost uncountable number perhaps you need some bears ;) of different resources at this age,

 

Bill

 

OP, my Ds4 is doing Saxon 1 with Singapore 1A/1B this year. My oldest did Saxon 2 as a 5 yo 1st grader. It is possible to do Saxon 2 with a 5 year old. That doesn't mean you should, of course, but it is possible.

[LinRTX]

My youngest did Saxon 2 while in K. I only did half the book with her because I was so busy with my high schoolers, but I think she could do all of it. We only did it twice a week. And this child is my one who I would not call math savvy -- she gets it but she works for it.

 

She is 11 now and has just finished Saxon 76.

 

Linda

[The Governess]

Ok, I have some experience with this. :D Dd7 goes to a part-time classical school and they used Saxon 1 for K. She used Singapore 1a at home that year and for 1st grade we used Singapore 1b and 2a with Saxon 2. I think the way you are scheduling it is perfect, as you will be introducing most concepts with Singapore, and when you get to those lesson in Saxon they will be review. I think this is ideal, as Singapore IMO does a much better job of explaining the big concepts (and I highly recommend the HIG for this!).

 

Saxon did fill some things out for us - it includes a lot of extra lessons/practice on things like skip counting, telling time, working with a calendar, using a ruler, reading a thermometer, graphing, etc. Some of this Singapore doesn't cover or covers only briefly. I was okay with introducing this type of material in a more procedural way, but math operations and other big concepts I was glad had already been introduced using Singapore's methods.

 

I made some modifications to the way we used Saxon. If we had already covered a topic in Singapore, I didn't teach the lesson, we just did the worksheet. We only did the full meeting once a week and did only the calendar the other days unless she really needed review on a meeting topic. We only did side one of the worksheets. We didn't do every math facts page and I didn't time them. I alternated between the mental math and the Saxon math sheets, never both on the same day.

 

We haven't found this to be too much work yet. I don't generally like "teaching" from Saxon, but it works well as review and as a source of misc. Topics that Singapore doesn't focus on. I think if you continue at your pace with Singapore, you will find that only 1/3 or so if the Saxon lessons will require actual teaching, with the rest serving as review of what you have already covered.

 

Hope that helps!!

[newlifemom]

Ok, I have some experience with this. :D Dd7 goes to a part-time classical school and they used Saxon 1 for K. She used Singapore 1a at home that year and for 1st grade we used Singapore 1b and 2a with Saxon 2. I think the way you are scheduling it is perfect, as you will be introducing most concepts with Singapore, and when you get to those lesson in Saxon they will be review. I think this is ideal, as Singapore IMO does a much better job of explaining the big concepts (and I highly recommend the HIG for this!).

 

Saxon did fill some things out for us - it includes a lot of extra lessons/practice on things like skip counting, telling time, working with a calendar, using a ruler, reading a thermometer, graphing, etc. Some of this Singapore doesn't cover or covers only briefly. I was okay with introducing this type of material in a more procedural way, but math operations and other big concepts I was glad had already been introduced using Singapore's methods.

 

I made some modifications to the way we used Saxon. If we had already covered a topic in Singapore, I didn't teach the lesson, we just did the worksheet. We only did the full meeting once a week and did only the calendar the other days unless she really needed review on a meeting topic. We only did side one of the worksheets. We didn't do every math facts page and I didn't time them. I alternated between the mental math and the Saxon math sheets, never both on the same day.

 

We haven't found this to be too much work yet. I don't generally like "teaching" from Saxon, but it works well as review and as a source of misc. Topics that Singapore doesn't focus on. I think if you continue at your pace with Singapore, you will find that only 1/3 or so if the Saxon lessons will require actual teaching, with the rest serving as review of what you have already covered.

 

Hope that helps!!

 

 

 

Thanks, I did find it helpful.

[Spy Car]

First of all What I meant when I said less is more was in terms of total subjects overall. I want to do a lot of math with her b/c I think she likes it and can handle it. That is why I am not doing a standard package K curriculum like I did with my other children.

 

And I promise to engage the logical reasoning part of her mind. I have already started some simple logic problems ala critical thinking company. :D

 

Oh, fewer subjects, more math. I can live with that :D

 

Bill (sometimes slow on the uptake)

[poetic license]

First of all What I meant when I said less is more was in terms of total subjects overall. I want to do a lot of math with her b/c I think she likes it and can handle it. That is why I am not doing a standard package K curriculum like I did with my other children.

 

And I promise to engage the logical reasoning part of her mind. I have already started some simple logic problems ala critical thinking company. :D

 

This is sort of like us--we're mainly doing Math as a formal subject right now and LA is limited to DS reading aloud to me and listening to audiobooks. We're in the "uncountable number" category when it comes to math curricula ;) as my son likes math a lot and I don't want him to zoom through grade levels at such a young age.

 

Right now we've got going on in various degrees--

 

Singapore 1A IP/CWP

Right Start B (mainly the abacus and games for now; the full curr. from Sept.)

Math Mammoth 1B

MEP

Miquon

 

we're thinking of reading LOF Elementary for fun and possibly doing some of the puzzle/challenging stuff from CSMP. And we still haven't ordered Zaccaro yet. :lol:

 

So all that to say that it may not be overkill, but whatever programs you do pick to go together, first see if they mesh with your philosophy and approach. Saxon wasn't really up my alley so I didn't really even think about getting it. Hence all the other programs. Also, we don't do everything from every program. For MEP, for example, I just pick out the puzzles and critical thinking problems. To make sure there are no gaps I just go by the topics in the Singapore HIGs as my guide.

[Spy Car]

 

Right now we've got going on in various degrees--

 

Singapore 1A IP/CWP

Right Start B (mainly the abacus and games for now; the full curr. from Sept.)

Math Mammoth 1B

MEP

Miquon

 

we're thinking of reading LOF Elementary for fun and possibly doing some of the puzzle/challenging stuff from CSMP. And we still haven't ordered Zaccaro yet. :lol:

 

 

Slacker :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[poetic license]

Slacker :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

 

So I've actually been meaning to ask, at what level can Zaccaro be started? Is the point we're at now good or should we wait until Singapore 2? So there's been a good reason for my slacking :lol:

[minuway]

Is there a reason you don't just want to start with 1A? My dd6 is now doing SM 2A - we started with SM Essential Math K when she was 4. I think 1A has a great approach to place value, adding and subtracting. It would make more sense to me to just do 1A at whatever pace she's happy with. I'm not super familiar with Saxon, but I think it follows a pretty different path than Singapore, and I'm not sure what it would add. I have a math lover too, but she also gets ornery when I try to push her to do too much (even though I know she's capable). I usually just leave up to her how many lessons she does at a time - at least one a day, but many days she'll zip through 3 lessons at a time if she's in the right mood.

[TXBeth]

After doing Singapore with 4 other children last year, varying levels and I do not like how they do $ and time in particular. I like the repetition of the meeting. Now that doesn't mean I don't tweak those meetings after I can tell they really know that particular thing [counting coins or skip counting a certain #, or calendar work]. In my neophyte brain and [i suppose for some limited] anecdotal experience, I see value to repetition with those types of things. I also see value in being able to recite facts quickly w/o error. However, I also see value in being able to pull #s apart and think about problems in a more realistic setting that Singapore provides. I also like the imagination the Miquon provides. I would love a program that combines all of those components.

 

[...]

 

And Bill, I do want math to be fun. When she did the placement test, she really was having fun with some of the things she had to do and certainly looked at things differently than her sibling probably would have.

 

All I can say is I want it all. :tongue_smilie:

 

Great idea! So, Bill, when are you going to publish a single math curriculum that incorporates all of this so the rest of us don't have to bother pulling it all together and getting past the intimidation of Miquon?

[Spy Car]

So I've actually been meaning to ask, at what level can Zaccaro be started? Is the point we're at now good or should we wait until Singapore 2? So there's been a good reason for my slacking :lol:

 

I would wait until you are into 2. Just starting 2B is when we hit our stride.

 

Bill

[newlifemom]

Is there a reason you don't just want to start with 1A? My dd6 is now doing SM 2A - we started with SM Essential Math K when she was 4. I think 1A has a great approach to place value, adding and subtracting. It would make more sense to me to just do 1A at whatever pace she's happy with. I'm not super familiar with Saxon, but I think it follows a pretty different path than Singapore, and I'm not sure what it would add. I have a math lover too, but she also gets ornery when I try to push her to do too much (even though I know she's capable). I usually just leave up to her how many lessons she does at a time - at least one a day, but many days she'll zip through 3 lessons at a time if she's in the right mood.

 

At this particular point in time I cannot remember why I chose 1B, but I am sure it was a good reason. :tongue_smilie: