Ways to enforce C, K, and CK rules?

[AnnaM]

My daughter is having the hardest time grasping this concept. I have tried chanting the rule with her, working through work pages with her, writing the rule out for her and so on. Nothing I do seems to make it click. She is a bright child (aren't they all?) and this rule seems fairly simple to me. What else can I possibly try to get this rule to stick?!

 

K comes before i and e and C before the other three is the chant if that helps you understand what I am trying to teach.

[boscopup]

In AAS, they're taught to try a C first. If it doesn't work, use the K. They have already learned that C says /s/ before i and e. So if you're trying to spell "kit", you try the 'c', then notice it says /sit/, so you have to use a 'k'. They do this with letter tiles, so you might try doing that?

[Lily_Grace]

Nothing worked here until I gave up and told my kid "spell 'ice'. Any time you see I or E after C it's going to make the 'ss' sound, like in 'ice'. Three letters, that's it."

 

Now he's learning Italian and all of a sudden ci is 'ch' and ch is 'k'. Oy! :lol:

[Ellie]

Spalding teaches the rule this way: I before E except after C and when it says A as in neighbor and weigh. Maybe saying it like that will help it to stick better in her head. Your rule doesn't trip as lightly off the tongue, lol.

 

Also, Spalding teaches this phonogram, ck, with its rule, "used after a single vowel that doesn't say its name."

[boscopup]

Spalding teaches the rule this way: I before E except after C and when it says A as in neighbor and weigh. Maybe saying it like that will help it to stick better in her head. Your rule doesn't trip as lightly off the tongue, lol.

 

That's the "ie" vs. "ei" rule. She's talking about whether to use 'c' vs. 'k' at the beginning of a word. :)

[AnnaM]

The I before E rule is different from the K before I and E rule. It has to do with the positions of I and E in a word. What I am trying to teach is when to use a K and when to use a C at the beginning of a word.

 

I think I will try pulling out the letter tiles and just spending the next few days working on it without any other LA. I do believe that at some point it will click with her.

[Ellie]

The I before E rule is different from the K before I and E rule. It has to do with the positions of I and E in a word. What I am trying to teach is when to use a K and when to use a C at the beginning of a word.

 

I think I will try pulling out the letter tiles and just spending the next few days working on it without any other LA. I do believe that at some point it will click with her.

If children learn and understand the i before e rule, they don't need to know a k at the beginning of a word rule, as knowing i before e solves the problem.

 

But then, I'm a Spalding geek. :D

[boscopup]

If children learn and understand the i before e rule, they don't need to know a k at the beginning of a word rule, as knowing i before e solves the problem.

 

But then, I'm a Spalding geek. :D

 

:confused: How does knowing "ie" vs. "ei" help with using a 'k' for "kit" instead of a 'c'?

[mo2]

If children learn and understand the i before e rule, they don't need to know a k at the beginning of a word rule, as knowing i before e solves the problem.

 

But then, I'm a Spalding geek. :D

 

 

I'm confused. :confused:

[AmeliaBinMO]

For Saxon Phonics, see on p. 2, the fifth and sixth box down:

 

http://steckvaughn.hmhco.com/HA/correlations/pdf/s/saxon_phonics_coding_chart.pdf

 

HTH!

 

ETA: Oh -- you want ways to reinforce the rule! I would just copy, enlarge, and print out the rule she is having difficulty with, tape in on the wall, bulletin board, or whatever is most near her work space. If she refers to it often enough, it should stick. Sorry that I'm no great help!

Edited August 9, 2011 by AmeliaBinMO

[MerryAtHope]

I think I will try pulling out the letter tiles and just spending the next few days working on it without any other LA. I do believe that at some point it will click with her.

 

This exact lesson is actually in the sample pages for AAS. If you want to see how they present it, take a look here. You can put up words with a blank for the /k/ sound and have her try both to see which one works (always try C first, then if it doesn't work try K). Let her just play with a bunch of words until it starts to click for her. HTH! Merry :-)

[AnnaM]

This exact lesson is actually in the sample pages for AAS. If you want to see how they present it, take a look here. You can put up words with a blank for the /k/ sound and have her try both to see which one works (always try C first, then if it doesn't work try K). Let her just play with a bunch of words until it starts to click for her. HTH! Merry :-)

 

 

Thank you. I will look at this. This is frustrating her just as much as it is me!

[Ellie]

:confused: How does knowing "ie" vs. "ei" help with using a 'k' for "kit" instead of a 'c'?

:confused:

 

I didn't say "ie" vs "ei." I said "I before E except after C and when it says A as in neighbor and weigh." When taught with the Spalding phonograms along with the words in the Extended Ayres List, children learn that a word couldn't be spelled "cit" and be pronounced "kit." They would also know that "city" has to be spelled with a c; otherwise it would be pronounced "kitty."

[boscopup]

:confused:

 

I didn't say "ie" vs "ei." I said "I before E except after C and when it says A as in neighbor and weigh." When taught with the Spalding phonograms along with the words in the Extended Ayres List, children learn that a word couldn't be spelled "cit" and be pronounced "kit." They would also know that "city" has to be spelled with a c; otherwise it would be pronounced "kitty."

 

That saying is the "ie" vs "ei" saying (I learned it in school too). "I before E" means you're going to spell it "ie" unless it's after a C, in which you spell it "ei", or if it says A like in nEIghbor and wEIgh. That's what helps you remember to spell "receive" instead of "recieve".

 

That saying has nothing to do with how to spell "kit" or "city" (the C in "receive" will still say /s/ whether you use "ie" or "ei"). Knowing that C says /s/ before E or I does help. Knowing to try a C first also helps. :)

[stripe]

But I don't understand the CK question as that's at the end of a word/syllable rather than at the beginning.

[onaclairadeluna]

There are really two different concepts the "k" sound at the beginning and at the end. You should teach them separately.

 

This is how I teach "k" at the beginning...

 

For "k" at the beginning you spell it with a c when ever you can.

 

If a c is followed by an i or an e it has a different sound.

 

So if I have my child spell cat and she spells it K-A-T. I will ask her if she can spell that word with a c.

 

If I ask her to spell Kilt and she spells it with a C, I have her sound out the word to discover that it actually says CILT and she has to spell it with a K.

 

What helps is if I teach her to be able to "discover" her own mistakes. I put that in quotes because in the beginning I have to help her. Once she gets used to looking for her own errors she winds up checking her own work and avoids these mistakes.

 

For the K sound at the end the rules are more complex but the process is similar.

[Karen in CO]

But I don't understand the CK question as that's at the end of a word/syllable rather than at the beginning.

 

for the ck at the end, I always told my kids that c and k are afraid they will fall off the end of the word so they can't be there alone (alone behind a vowel). Silly, but it works.

[momto3innc]

We use AAS as well and I write a variety of C or K beginning words but leave off the first letter. The basic rules:

-C says /s/ is front of e, i, or y (such as except, city, cyclone)

-if is is a /k/ sound, always try the C first, then the K because C is the higher frequency letter.

 

He then maneuvers the tiles around and determines the correct letter that is needed for each word.

 

As far as the -CK at the end, we know that is at the end of a one syllable word with a short vowel. (so jack, tack, etc...not magic since that is a two syllable word, not bake since it is a long vowel sound).

 

Not sure if I'm being clear enough but we just go over and over it with the tiles and eventually it sinks in.

[Ellie]

That saying is the "ie" vs "ei" saying (I learned it in school too). "I before E" means you're going to spell it "ie" unless it's after a C, in which you spell it "ei", or if it says A like in nEIghbor and wEIgh. That's what helps you remember to spell "receive" instead of "recieve".

 

That saying has nothing to do with how to spell "kit" or "city" (the C in "receive" will still say /s/ whether you use "ie" or "ei"). Knowing that C says /s/ before E or I does help. Knowing to try a C first also helps. :)

::facepalm::

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. My only excuse is that (1) I'm old, and (2) we've had over 30 days of 100+ degree weather. :D

 

Ok, the *real* thing is that when Spalding teaches the letter c, it teaches both sounds at the same time, and the crutch, "c followed by e, i, or y says /s/." And then the k vs c comes up in relation to words in the spelling list--IOW, in actual usage, with dictation and analyzation of any applicable rules--, and then in reading and writing, rather than in isolation as just a rule.

[boscopup]

::facepalm::

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking. My only excuse is that (1) I'm old, and (2) we've had over 30 days of 100+ degree weather. :D

 

:lol: Yes, I've been having days like that too. Completely understand! :D

 

Ok, the *real* thing is that when Spalding teaches the letter c, it teaches both sounds at the same time, and the crutch, "c followed by e, i, or y says /s/." And then the k vs c comes up in relation to words in the spelling list--IOW, in actual usage, with dictation and analyzation of any applicable rules--, and then in reading and writing, rather than in isolation as just a rule.

 

:iagree:

[AnnaM]

Ellie-I am in N.Texas near Dallas so I completely understand!