Switching maths, Abeka -> MUS -> singapore -> MEP

[Hottater]

I started out in Abeka, It was too much teacher prep, so I ditched the Teachers manual. So, my son did Kindy math in 3 months with Abeka workbook alone Spiral concept was easy enough, that I didn't need the TM too much. He had issues understanding the word problems. So, I switched to Math u see. My son is very visual learner and hated the black and white "just math workbook problems" - no color, no story. As a teacher, I Loved The video explanations, very sequential and helpful with the addition facts. But had to fight my son to stop "playing with the manipulatives" and actually get the work done. Switched to Singapore 1A and son has done really well with the text book and workbook, but then on Exercise 40 to 43 whoa, a big gap. 8+2 jumps to 17-5 ? US edition Primary math. So we went back to MUS and frustrated with barking at him to do his work. We want to try MEP, but hearing that it is spiral, and teacher intensive, am I asking for trouble? How to solve this curriculum problem??!!?

Edited August 13, 2011 by Hottater
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[almondbutterandjelly]

I recommend going back to Singapore, and getting the HIG. At this level, you should be working with your dc to memorize the addition and subtraction facts. The HIG should mention this. You don't have to do them all at once. Usually certain ones are expected at certain times, eventually having to learn them all. Singapore does teach addition and subtraction side by side. They do the same for multiplication and division.

 

It's a great curriculum for visual learners.

 

Also, for your information, Singapore US edition stops being full color at level 3, so once you hit that level, you may want to switch to Standards edition which is full color all the way through level 6.

[boscopup]

I agree. Don't hop just because of one little conceptual leap. Use the HIG, and if you need something extra, Math Mammoth blue topic books are usually good for helping kids over the conceptual leaps that Singapore sometimes throws in there. But stick with Singapore if it's been working otherwise and you and your son like it.

[EmilyGF]

From the age of your son, I wouldn't worry about word problem understanding as a sole reason to change curriculum. He just turned six, right?

 

Emily

[Crimson Wife]

if you need something extra, Math Mammoth blue topic books are usually good for helping kids over the conceptual leaps that Singapore sometimes throws in there. But stick with Singapore if it's been working otherwise and you and your son like it.

 

:iagree:

 

The single-topic Math Mammoth "blue" worktexts are inexpensive and offer a much more step-by-step approach than Singapore. HSBC is offering the full package (39 workbooks) for 20-50% off depending on how many people buy. That will get you through 6th grade level.

[Hottater]

Wow, does the sm HIG explain the terminology of math, eg. Minuend, subtrahend, difference, and explain concepts? I took a gander at mep's concepts, and was thinking I was missing gaps like <> even though he knows it verbally, like 18 is bigger than 7, ds has never used the signs. I am afraid that he's not getting enough "practice" in the correct way. He's been getting stuck on which direction to go when subtracting single digit numbers from teen numbers and it's subtraction facts. MUS explains the -9's and -8's in a specific way that helps, just when i think he knows the concept in two weeks, and once I take the manipulatives away for mental math of singapore, he's confused. We'd be doing 3 pages of mus lesson 23, then I take away the manipulatives and remind him to with count backwards for -3,-2,-1 problems or visualize 14-8 = 4+(10-8) or the ghost 10 with the prior manipulatives, and he gets confused when it jumps from -9's,-8's problems to 15-6 or 11-6 in Singapore. Do you think the HIG would help? I am so close to finishing SM 1A but can't get over this subtraction hump.

[Hottater]

:iagree:

 

The single-topic Math Mammoth "blue" worktexts are inexpensive and offer a much more step-by-step approach than Singapore. HSBC is offering the full package (39 workbooks) for 20-50% off depending on how many people buy. That will get you through 6th grade level.

 

I love your idea, my problem is cost. We have little funds right now. It was either classical conversations or an iPad, hubby chose iPad for visual learning, and now I am stuck. Only able to use what I have or free stuff. Free aps or links. That's why I was thinking Mep. I already have MUS beta, manipulatives, workbook and teacher's guide, and Singapore 1a,b, student workbook and text.

[nmoira]

We want to try MEP, but hearing that it is spiral, and teacher intensive, am I asking for trouble? How to solve this curriculum problem??!!?

MEP is spiral and it isn't -- big concepts spiral. However, there will be at least a few questions the child will not be able to do unaided, and it requires more out-of-the-box thinking on the part of the child than do the Singapore texts and workbooks.

 

Wow, does the sm HIG explain the terminology of math, eg. Minuend, subtrahend, difference, and explain concepts? I took a gander at mep's concepts, and was thinking I was missing gaps like <> even though he knows it verbally, like 18 is bigger than 7, ds has never used the signs. I am afraid that he's not getting enough "practice" in the correct way.

MEP is unique (AFAIK) in explicitly introducing inequalities so early. Equality and inequality are the foundational concept of Y1. I wouldn't worry about it. FWIW, with terminology associated with basic operations, I know "divisor," "product," "quotient," "remainder," and "sum" and have never had a problem through advanced maths. :001_smile:

[wapiti]

I love your idea, my problem is cost. We have little funds right now. It was either classical conversations or an iPad, hubby chose iPad for visual learning, and now I am stuck. Only able to use what I have or free stuff. Free aps or links. That's why I was thinking Mep. I already have MUS beta, manipulatives, workbook and teacher's guide, and Singapore 1a,b, student workbook and text.

 

The various levels of MM addition and subtraction Blue topic books are in the range of $4 each for PDFs, or already printed for around $10. Somewhere there was a thread discussing how to use them directly on the iPad...

[Hottater]

MEP is spiral and it isn't -- big concepts spiral. However, there will be at least a few questions the child will not be able to do unaided, and it requires more out-of-the-box thinking on the part of the child than do the Singapore texts and workbooks.

 

MEP is unique (AFAIK) in explicitly introducing inequalities so early. Equality and inequality are the foundational concept of Y1. I wouldn't worry about it. FWIW, with terminology associated with basic operations, I know "divisor," "product," "quotient," "remainder," and "sum" and have never had a problem through advanced maths. :001_smile:

 

My problem isn't so much the problem of just my 'not knowing the math terminology' to know how to figure it out. But moreso, my ability to convey how to help my son solve the equation for himself. I went through calculus too. For example, my son lit up when I could help him identify the language behind each math number so that he knew it's reference point. He knew which side of the equation I was describing eg. when I said, "addend plus addend equals sum," "minuend minus the subtrahend equals the difference." Math u see videos helped me do this. This helped ease the burden of me getting frustrated not knowing how to explain something that seemed so easy as block of 4 and block of 9 equals block of 13 and how it correlates to 13 minus 4 equals 9. He couldn't understand why putting those numbers in that order would work that way. He understands that minus means take away, but the placement within the equation was totally throwing him off. But, Singapore didn't explain that. So does Singapore's HIG do this? The root of the problem is that my son loves visual stimulation in singapore, but my ability to teach him is lacking enough explanation, which MUS's videos have helped. I really like SM, but am finding, that if I can't explain something, and it costing $74.00 a year for SM, and $75-8-85 for MUS is it worth the 2 approaches per year? I am going to start 1st grade with him next year, and I feel better to start and change to one approach early on, than to change later. If I can do visual, but inexpensive, and save my money for other subjects, I would much rather do that... This is why I wanted to switch. I also checked out Math on the level= $355.00 for a complete set of K-pre algebra. Which allows me to work with multi aged children. My now 6, 3 and 1 will be working together in 3 years.

 

Right now, my son's in singapore, and my daughter is doing abeka, and wow, just juggling the two time wise and not being able to afford homeschooling, is getting myself knots.

 

Curriculum, avg. PER YEAR, Whole curriculum printed cost k-6, Description

Abeka=$90.00; K-6 =$630; Spiral

SM= $74.00; k-6 = $444.00; Mastery

MUS= $85.00; K-6 =$595.00; Mastery

Math on the Level= $55.00; Prek-Prealgebra= $355.00 Hands on, no workbook multiage

MM=$42; 1-6= $252; Mastery

MEP = Free, but Average printing cost= $70 per year k-6 $490.00(staples cost of B&W printing only) long spiral.

Kahn = Free (after 3rd grade.)

[Hottater]

The various levels of MM addition and subtraction Blue topic books are in the range of $4 each for PDFs, or already printed for around $10. Somewhere there was a thread discussing how to use them directly on the iPad...

After pricing out things, I am IMPRESSED at how much more inexpensive MM is! And, she's from finland, they outrank most countries in Math and Science... the things that make you go Hmmm... And, it's colorful like singapore, and mastery...

[nmoira]

This helped ease the burden of me getting frustrated not knowing how to explain something that seemed so easy as block of 4 and block of 9 equals block of 13 and how it correlates to 13 minus 4 equals 9. He couldn't understand why putting those numbers in that order would work that way. He understands that minus means take away, but the placement within the equation was totally throwing him off. But, Singapore didn't explain that. So does Singapore's HIG do this?

 

I'd say that to continue in Singapore you will need the HIG. Singapore does cover this as a key concept in 1A using number bonds (Right Start emphasizes this as well using "partitioning" and "whole and part" terminology).

 

 

You can purchase cards from Singaporemath.com or make up your own to help with this concept.

 

The root of the problem is that my son loves visual stimulation in singapore, but my ability to teach him is lacking enough explanation, which MUS's videos have helped. I really like SM, but am finding, that if I can't explain something, and it costing $74.00 a year for SM, and $75-8-85 for MUS is it worth the 2 approaches per year? I am going to start 1st grade with him next year, and I feel better to start and change to one approach early on, than to change later. If I can do visual, but inexpensive, and save my money for other subjects, I would much rather do that... This is why I wanted to switch. I also checked out Math on the level= $355.00 for a complete set of K-pre algebra. Which allows me to work with multi aged children. My now 6, 3 and 1 will be working together in 3 years.

I don't think this is what you want to hear, but I strongly suspect that you would both benefit greatly from using Right Start at least through the end of Level B. It's not cheap, but it's semi-scripted and strong conceptually. Singapore is an easy transition from Right Start. Edited August 13, 2011 by nmoira

[Elizabeth in WA]

I'd stop curriculum hopping and stick with one program. It sounds like you need more teaching guidance and to that end buying or borrowing from your library Liping Ma's book would be more helpful and practical.

[Hottater]

I'd stop curriculum hopping and stick with one program. It sounds like you need more teaching guidance and to that end buying or borrowing from your library Liping Ma's book would be more helpful and practical.

 

He saw the number bonds. He kind of gets it, but he's still having a tad of a problem with the double digit numbers and it's relevance.

Maybe just spend the $17.00 for the SM HIG? Does the MM download, mean that we have to print it all out on our home computer? Or can the kids just type in the answer?

 

I am trying to stick to one curriculum, the best I can, but DS dislikes MUS. He likes SM, and I am just having a bit of a time with teaching it.

[melmichigan]

All of these programs in one kindergarten school year? If he is only going into 1st then I would take some time to work on these basics concepts, the number bonds, the basic addition facts, and place value, before I worried to much about moving forward.

 

I hate to say it but if you are struggling with SM you really need the HIG, it is a different approach to math and not the way most of us were taught. So much of each lesson is the lesson on how to present and teach the topics before you even open the textbook and workbook, you are missing an essential part of the program. I would definately start with the HIG, maybe a used edition? (My experience is all with the Standard Edition but I can't see that as making much difference in the necessity of the HIG.)

 

I have supplemented with MM, my DC just don't respond well to the format for a main program. Have you tried signing up on the MM website for the free download of worksheets? That would also give you some idea of that program and those are free, something like 300 of them.

[Tiramisu]

I started out in Abeka, It was too much teacher prep, so I ditched the Teachers manual. So, my son did Kindy math in 3 months with Abeka workbook alone Spiral concept was easy enough, that I didn't need the TM too much. He had issues understanding the word problems. So, I switched to Math u see. My son is very visual learner and hated the black and white "just math workbook problems" - no color, no story. As a teacher, I Loved The video explanations, very sequential and helpful with the addition facts. But had to fight my son to stop "playing with the manipulatives" and actually get the work done. Switched to Singapore 1A and son has done really well with the text book and workbook, but then on Exercise 40 to 43 whoa, a big gap. 8+2 jumps to 17-5 ? US edition Primary math. So we went back to MUS and frustrated with barking at him to do his work. We want to try MEP, but hearing that it is spiral, and teacher intensive, am I asking for trouble? How to solve this curriculum problem??!!?

 

If your ds is in K, he just may not be ready for what he's meeting up for in Singapore even if he's really bright. In Singapore I don't think they start 1A level math until what would be spring of first grade here.

[coffeefreak]

Hi! Welcome to the boards! You'll find a lot of us struggle to find THE math program or THE Language program. A lot of things come into play - Cost, child, you, time. There is no one easy answer. One of my girls struggles in math. We're talking couldn't add till she was 8. The other gets it immediately. I mean I say, 1+1=2 and we never have to cover it again. We're a house of extremes:D So here's what I would recommend:

 

1. Take a deep breath. It's only Kindy/1st grade and you're doing great. Look at all he understands! Word problems are hard for everyone, even a math wiz!

 

2. Since he is doing fine in math so far, which curriculum do YOU like the best. Which one do you find easy to teach, least amount of prep for you, and gets the job done?

 

3. Since cost is a factor, I would list what you like about each curriculum and go from there. So, if you really liked A Beka, but didn't like the cost or the teacher's guides, Rod and Staff or Horizons Math would be something to look into. Last time I checked R&S was less than $50 for the entire year and Horizons was around the same. Also remember that A Beka was written for a classroom and adjusted for Homeschool use. I rarely do ANY of the exercises listed in the TG for the classroom. If you like Math U See but hate the manipulatives, some of the other ladies will be able to give you suggestions on what to substitute there.

 

3. Don't get so caught up in the long term. We have used almost every math curriculum under the sun and it has been fine. Likewise, no two children are the same so what you use for one, you may not use for the other. If you really think a curriculum is too expensive, don't buy it, there's always a cheaper alternative.

 

4. And lastly, as some other ladies have said, don't jump to another curriculum because of one struggle. If he was struggling in everything math, I would say it's the curriculum. However, since it was only word problems, I would ride out a curriculum for at LEAST a semester before switching. You could buy a word problem book from the bookstore and do extra practice, you could look online for some free help with word problems, or even play store and other games to start to make the connections.

 

HTH! Remember, you're doing great and there's no need to panic.:001_smile:

Blessings!

Dorinda

[melmichigan]

I will add, my DD began struggling with SM at 1A/1B, and continued to struggle through 2B. We have worked with CLE Math (she did 100-250) and are moving her to that program. It is also less expensive under $40 a year. (If you call they will send you free Light Unit samples too.) Singapore is not the program for every kid at every stage. If your son continues to struggle with SM (beyond just this point and with the teaching support) you might want to look into it. As others have said, once you decide on a program and it's working, stick with it.

[Hottater]

All of these programs in one kindergarten school year? If he is only going into 1st then I would take some time to work on these basics concepts, the number bonds, the basic addition facts, and place value, before I worried to much about moving forward.

 

I hate to say it but if you are struggling with SM you really need the HIG, it is a different approach to math and not the way most of us were taught. So much of each lesson is the lesson on how to present and teach the topics before you even open the textbook and workbook, you are missing an essential part of the program. I would definately start with the HIG, maybe a used edition? (My experience is all with the Standard Edition but I can't see that as making much difference in the necessity of the HIG.)

 

I have supplemented with MM, my DC just don't respond well to the format for a main program. Have you tried signing up on the MM website for the free download of worksheets? That would also give you some idea of that program and those are free, something like 300 of them.

Thank you for your response! Yes, it is totally different from how I learned in school. I used little numbers to "carry over" which is a tad similar in SM, but they don't write it down, they expect you to do it in your head. I will try the 300 MM worksheet downloads and maybe that will help him review and be more confident. I went through all the MUS math subtraction and the SM subtraction. His addition is great, I used flash cards, and he understood it all but subtraction, he got lost. Thank you for the suggestion. You are so helpful. I know this is strange, but I want my kids to be a year ahead in everything, so that they could possibly go into a particular high school. There are opportunities in public high school that I don't think I could provide.

[Hottater]

Hi! Welcome to the boards! You'll find a lot of us struggle to find THE math program or THE Language program. A lot of things come into play - Cost, child, you, time. There is no one easy answer. One of my girls struggles in math. We're talking couldn't add till she was 8. The other gets it immediately. I mean I say, 1+1=2 and we never have to cover it again. We're a house of extremes:D So here's what I would recommend:

 

1. Take a deep breath. It's only Kindy/1st grade and you're doing great. Look at all he understands! Word problems are hard for everyone, even a math wiz!

 

2. Since he is doing fine in math so far, which curriculum do YOU like the best. Which one do you find easy to teach, least amount of prep for you, and gets the job done?

 

3. Since cost is a factor, I would list what you like about each curriculum and go from there. So, if you really liked A Beka, but didn't like the cost or the teacher's guides, Rod and Staff or Horizons Math would be something to look into. Last time I checked R&S was less than $50 for the entire year and Horizons was around the same. Also remember that A Beka was written for a classroom and adjusted for Homeschool use. I rarely do ANY of the exercises listed in the TG for the classroom. If you like Math U See but hate the manipulatives, some of the other ladies will be able to give you suggestions on what to substitute there.

 

3. Don't get so caught up in the long term. We have used almost every math curriculum under the sun and it has been fine. Likewise, no two children are the same so what you use for one, you may not use for the other. If you really think a curriculum is too expensive, don't buy it, there's always a cheaper alternative.

 

4. And lastly, as some other ladies have said, don't jump to another curriculum because of one struggle. If he was struggling in everything math, I would say it's the curriculum. However, since it was only word problems, I would ride out a curriculum for at LEAST a semester before switching. You could buy a word problem book from the bookstore and do extra practice, you could look online for some free help with word problems, or even play store and other games to start to make the connections.

 

HTH! Remember, you're doing great and there's no need to panic.:001_smile:

Blessings!

Dorinda

Thank you for the encouragement! MUS helped out a lot with the word problem situation at first, but he tired of a black and white list of math problems. Visual learners like the different objects that they are counting in pictures. But I can say he still had issues with assigning the math words to their meanings. That every time the syntax and definitions of "less than or some more" came up, at times he didn't know where in the equation to put the number. Then singapore did more word problems in a better way, where he made up the word problems. It's now the gaps in subtraction math facts that are confusing him. Just because subtraction are similar to addition facts, some curricula assume it's easy to understand. But the minuend and subtrahend play different roles than in an addition problem that has the commutative property, where the addends can switch. It doesn't make sense that the difference and the subtrahend are interchangeable around the = sign. Explaining that seems hard. Maybe more review on the number bonds? I saw the rainbow method with MM.

 

pros and cons for me=

 

Abeka- pros=visually stimulating for my visual learner, necessary review of facts. Very age appropriate. Cons= not mastery approach, high cost, and Teachers Manuals are made for a classroom. He could do stuff without my help.

 

MUS- pros= manipulatives are great for understanding concepts, mastery approach, TM's/cd's are great for me the teacher. Cons - totally un-visually stimulating somewhat costly, so he likes to play with the manipulatives like legos, and constantly needs my attention. He wastes more time sitting there staring and not wanting to do stuff.

 

Singapore= visually stimulating, mastery approach, he likes me to see his every problem, but he can start things without my aid. He loves making up stories for the pictures to understand the concepts. Cons= approaches some concepts a tad fast without enough explanation to student or teacher in the text.

Edited August 13, 2011 by Hottater

[Hottater]

Revisiting this thread - it's now 4 years later. He got up to MUS Gamma (3rd grade) unit 27 and ROAD BLOCK. I've retaught him all the multiplication tables three times and repeated 3rd grade gamma MUS. He can't line up the four digit times 3 digit multiplication problems to correctly perform one problem in less than 30 minutes. Maybe go back to abeka and ditch the TM's? has anyone done this? I am using www.xtramath.com to reinforce his multiplication tables and www.multiplication.com to give him a visual, and he is very slowly progressing. Trying to figure out if he has dyslexia, but even if he did, I don't know if maybe what I am doing is what every other homeschool mom has done? sang a number song, quizzed using flash cards, repeated the book several times, changed learning tables ideas, curriculum, Maybe I should switch to abeka math? Maybe spiral is key?  I have singapore, haven't used it yet because he is close to getting the rest "green" on his multiplication tables on xtramath.com

 

 

 

[sbgrace]

Consider asking on the learning needs board about dyslexia and multiplication fact memorization. I wouldn't let that aspect hold him back. This thread has some thoughts on that:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/465277-this-accomodation-seems-to-be-really-working-for-multiplication-facts-with-my-dyslexic-kid/

 

 

 

[OneStepAtATime]

Revisiting this thread - it's now 4 years later. He got up to MUS Gamma (3rd grade) unit 27 and ROAD BLOCK. I've retaught him all the multiplication tables three times and repeated 3rd grade gamma MUS. He can't line up the four digit times 3 digit multiplication problems to correctly perform one problem in less than 30 minutes. Maybe go back to abeka and ditch the TM's? has anyone done this? I am using www.xtramath.com to reinforce his multiplication tables and www.multiplication.com to give him a visual, and he is very slowly progressing. Trying to figure out if he has dyslexia, but even if he did, I don't know if maybe what I am doing is what every other homeschool mom has done? sang a number song, quizzed using flash cards, repeated the book several times, changed learning tables ideas, curriculum, Maybe I should switch to abeka math? Maybe spiral is key?  I have singapore, haven't used it yet because he is close to getting the rest "green" on his multiplication tables on xtramath.com

If he has dyslexia, standard procedures for learning multiplication tables may quite literally never work.   DH (dyslexic) is in his 40s and still does not have his multiplication tables fully memorized.  I seriously doubt he ever will.  I'm not dyslexic and honestly I never was able to memorize all of my times tables, either.  

 

What is helping some here with the kids (both dyslexic) is CLE, since it does a lot of review daily on math facts and does not expect complete memorization right away.   Also, some you tube videos have helped. Times Attacks has helped a bit.  Times Tales has helped a bit.  Creating their own multiplication grid once a week helps a bit.  Without constant targeted review it doesn't stick, though.

 

The kids are slowly memorizing some math facts.  For those they don't have down we use the CLE math reference chart.  Math fact practice is done separately and daily, otherwise the kids would be 105 before they ever advanced into higher level math.  We pick one fact (both the multiplication and the division sides) and practice it every which way we can, over and over, daily, for weeks and weeks.  Once it is down, we add it to the repertoire of facts we review, on a rotating schedule, never going more than 3 days without reviewing any particular fact.  Otherwise it is lost and we have to start over.

 

We still move forward in math, however.  I have to face the fact that math facts memorization in its entirety may never be achieved.  That should not prevent them from moving into more advanced math.  As long as the conceptual understanding is there, we keep moving forward.

[kbutton]

I don't worry a lot about math fact memorization--we use a chart for reference as needed. I do worry about number sense and conceptual knowledge.

 

For instance, does your child understand that 3456 x 231 is the same as 1(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 30(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 200(6+ 50 + 400 + 3000)?  (Assuming I typed that out right--it's late!)

 

Does he understand factors? Have you factored with him? My son did a lot better with multiplication when we started factoring.

 

www.educationunboxed.com has some wonderful free videos that work on facts and concepts using cuisinaire rods. They do some fun stuff with factoring as well. 

[Hottater]

I don't worry a lot about math fact memorization--we use a chart for reference as needed. I do worry about number sense and conceptual knowledge.

 

For instance, does your child understand that 3456 x 231 is the same as 1(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 30(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 200(6+ 50 + 400 + 3000)?  (Assuming I typed that out right--it's late!)

 

Does he understand factors? Have you factored with him? My son did a lot better with multiplication when we started factoring.

 

www.educationunboxed.com has some wonderful free videos that work on facts and concepts using cuisinaire rods. They do some fun stuff with factoring as well. 

 

He has done that 1(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 30(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 200(6+ 50 + 400 + 3000)? In MUS a couple of times, but place value notation I thought wasn't important. I let him do some, but didn't feel the need for him to master it. 

 

Haven't done factors as much-- Although he has done some and he does have the www.donnayoung.org triangle math flashcards. Don't know how to move on with math -- should I switch to something like Miquon? I have him playing timesattacks and www.xtramath.com

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

Two things strike me. You are skipping around a lot. Each curriculum in math builds on itself, and when you switch around, you leave gaps. No curriculum is given a fair chance this way. If you need to make a switch, I think it can be necessary sometimes with a lot of research, but this is a lot for such a young student, not to mention costly. I would try to choose the best one that fits your needs and try to stick with it for at least a full year unless it is total misery.

 

Second, it sounds like you like MUS because of the teaching videos, but in fairness, this looks like the only curriculum you are using with the teaching resources. Kindergarten is easy enough for some, but for many programs, half of the program is in the teachers manual. If you continue with Singapore, you will need the HIG, especially since the terminology and approach differs from traditional math. You need the curriculum guide for A Beka, which shows which facts and concepts to present when, and what terminology is specific to that program. If you hit a roadblock in a program, the teachers guide will help you get through it. You can always stop and go slow. But a roadblock alone isn't a reason to switch unless you see many problematic roadblocks down the road.

 

I use A Beka math, and for kindergarten, there are a lot of moving parts. I skip several of them. I have some of the flashcards and tons of Saxon manipulatives I use and substitute things. My son likes to do a workbook page each day, and we will often do two lessons since about every lesson is oral only. I use notebook paper instead of felt numbers and teddy bear counters for a lot. I skip a few things I don't have. I rarely look much ahead, but I would not do it without the curriculum guide. I do use the older version for kindergarten if that makes a difference. First through third seems to have fewer extras than kindergarten and share several of the same visual aids like flashcards. It's a little more straight forward.

[OneStepAtATime]

Two things strike me. You are skipping around a lot. Each curriculum in math builds on itself, and when you switch around, you leave gaps. No curriculum is given a fair chance this way. If you need to make a switch, I think it can be necessary sometimes with a lot of research, but this is a lot for such a young student, not to mention costly. I would try to choose the best one that fits your needs and try to stick with it for at least a full year unless it is total misery.

 

Second, it sounds like you like MUS because of the teaching videos, but in fairness, this looks like the only curriculum you are using with the teaching resources. Kindergarten is easy enough for some, but for many programs, half of the program is in the teachers manual. If you continue with Singapore, you will need the HIG, especially since the terminology and approach differs from traditional math. You need the curriculum guide for A Beka, which shows which facts and concepts to present when, and what terminology is specific to that program. If you hit a roadblock in a program, the teachers guide will help you get through it. You can always stop and go slow. But a roadblock alone isn't a reason to switch unless you see many problematic roadblocks down the road.

 

I use A Beka math, and for kindergarten, there are a lot of moving parts. I skip several of them. I have some of the flashcards and tons of Saxon manipulatives I use and substitute things. My son likes to do a workbook page each day, and we will often do two lessons since about every lesson is oral only. I use notebook paper instead of felt numbers and teddy bear counters for a lot. I skip a few things I don't have. I rarely look much ahead, but I would not do it without the curriculum guide. I do use the older version for kindergarten if that makes a difference. First through third seems to have fewer extras than kindergarten and share several of the same visual aids like flashcards. It's a little more straight forward.

FWIW, she was updating a thread from 4 years ago so I am assuming her son is no longer in kindergarten...

 

Agree that skipping around can lead to huge gaps.  We made that mistake when we first started homeschooling....

[OneStepAtATime]

He has done that 1(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 30(6 + 50 + 400 + 3000) + 200(6+ 50 + 400 + 3000)? In MUS a couple of times, but place value notation I thought wasn't important. I let him do some, but didn't feel the need for him to master it. 

 

Haven't done factors as much-- Although he has done some and he does have the www.donnayoung.org triangle math flashcards. Don't know how to move on with math -- should I switch to something like Miquon? I have him playing timesattacks and www.xtramath.com

Factoring is helping here, but we just really started heavily on factoring in the past few weeks so I don't know about long-term retention yet.

 

Place value notation has been of great help.

 

VERBALIZING what they are doing has also been a help.  For instance, reading out large numbers.  Reading out fractions.  Reading out math problems.  Then copying down what I read out to them.   I had no idea how much they were actually missing because they were forgetting the words or misunderstanding the words or flipping words or whatever.  CLE has had the kids reading out a lot of things or writing what I speak and it really has helped. 

 

One thing that I found was NOT working was using a mastery program.  The kids don't retain anything without lots of spiral review, and they get bored doing the same thing over and over.  CLE does a lot of rotation of materials so that has helped.

[Hottater]

Two things strike me. You are skipping around a lot. Each curriculum in math builds on itself, and when you switch around, you leave gaps. No curriculum is given a fair chance this way. If you need to make a switch, I think it can be necessary sometimes with a lot of research, but this is a lot for such a young student, not to mention costly. I would try to choose the best one that fits your needs and try to stick with it for at least a full year unless it is total misery.

 

Second, it sounds like you like MUS because of the teaching videos, but in fairness, this looks like the only curriculum you are using with the teaching resources. Kindergarten is easy enough for some, but for many programs, half of the program is in the teachers manual. If you continue with Singapore, you will need the HIG, especially since the terminology and approach differs from traditional math. You need the curriculum guide for A Beka, which shows which facts and concepts to present when, and what terminology is specific to that program. If you hit a roadblock in a program, the teachers guide will help you get through it. You can always stop and go slow. But a roadblock alone isn't a reason to switch unless you see many problematic roadblocks down the road.

 

I use A Beka math, and for kindergarten, there are a lot of moving parts. I skip several of them. I have some of the flashcards and tons of Saxon manipulatives I use and substitute things. My son likes to do a workbook page each day, and we will often do two lessons since about every lesson is oral only. I use notebook paper instead of felt numbers and teddy bear counters for a lot. I skip a few things I don't have. I rarely look much ahead, but I would not do it without the curriculum guide. I do use the older version for kindergarten if that makes a difference. First through third seems to have fewer extras than kindergarten and share several of the same visual aids like flashcards. It's a little more straight forward.

 

 

Sorry it does seem like I am Switching around alot.Two posts up I resurrected this thread from 4 years ago.  Thank you for your insight. I went from Abeka K math to a combination of Singapore and MUS from Grade 1-3, I also Repeated grade 3 MUS. I tried to line up both as much as possible so that my son was doing similar things at the same time. He learned both math ways. This road block has been major. It's the same spot that made us repeat gamma (3rd grade) MUS from the multiplication tables. We have done both singapore 1A-3A and MUS Alpha-gamma for the last 4 years. I was trying to use one math curricula  to help explain the the way to do it, and if he couldn't get easily adding one way eg (Singapore's addition in 1A), I'd try the other way (MUS Alpha mastery)  several times until one way or the other worked for him. When we did Abeka my DS did Kindy in 3 months using some of the math games. I didn't use the curriculum guide much. I need desperately an open and go curriculum with low teacher intensity, because I am swamped with English/LA for my 3 kiddos. My DS is slower than the rest of my kids and slows down the other girls in the family.

[Hottater]

Factoring is helping here, but we just really started heavily on factoring in the past few weeks so I don't know about long-term retention yet.

 

Place value notation has been of great help.

 

VERBALIZING what they are doing has also been a help.  For instance, reading out large numbers.  Reading out fractions.  Reading out math problems.  Then copying down what I read out to them.   I had no idea how much they were actually missing because they were forgetting the words or misunderstanding the words or flipping words or whatever.  CLE has had the kids reading out a lot of things or writing what I speak and it really has helped. 

 

One thing that I found was NOT working was using a mastery program.  The kids don't retain anything without lots of spiral review, and they get bored doing the same thing over and over.  CLE does a lot of rotation of materials so that has helped.

Thank you One step!!!  Is CLE spiral? 

 

Oh and Thank you for linking from the dyslexic board sbgrace. Hugs! I just need to stay over on that board! LOL. 

[kbutton]

You asked about Miquon in another post. Miquon works for my really intuitive kid. I have not found it to be overly teacher-intensive, but it's definitely not hands-off. You need to hover a bit and see how it's working. Once in a while my son really gets a concept, but the Miquon directions just don't make sense to him. I would definitely get the teacher materials (lab annotations and such). You might have to do some of the sheets yourself to "get" the approach. It could be just the thing you need or totally off the mark. I suggest that anyone whose child usually needs extra work commit to the idea that you might need to make additional homemade lab sheets, which is something the curriculum suggests anyway. Some lab sheets can be used over and over if you make additional copies--it depends on the way the concept is presented or how much practice is needed.

 

My DS is slower than the rest of my kids and slows down the other girls in the family.

 

Do you know why this is the case? A math disability, or some other reason? If he has lower than average capabilities all around with no reason to suspect an LD, he's going to need a different approach (or so I am told from friends who've BTDT). Do you have any data on his overall intellectual abilities? From what friends whose kids have lower IQs have said, they do a lot of what you are describing--multiple curriculum options to teach the concept multiple ways, etc. If that is the case, what you are doing may be the right approach, and you just need to tweak things a little or find a better fit for your main curriculum while using other resources for more practice or different approaches.

 

If you suspect a lower IQ that requires a different approach vs. a learning disability that needs shoring up or remediation, you might want to reformulate your question and ask it from that point of view (and probably on the Learning Challenges board). There are some very experienced parents here who can validate what you are seeing and offer more targeted suggestions. I've recently heard that this book has a very good bibliography and can help you find resources when you need additional ways to explain concepts. http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Classical-Beautiful-Education-Child/dp/1615382402

 

If this is not your situation at all, I am sorry for misreading. Either way, I hope this is not coming across as trite. I just want you to have access to some really good advice that is available here.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank you One step!!!  Is CLE spiral? 

 

Oh and Thank you for linking from the dyslexic board sbgrace. Hugs! I just need to stay over on that board! LOL. 

Yes, CLE is spiral.  I like it better than other spiral approaches by a long shot.  And I cross out some practice problems nearly every day so lessons don't get overwhelming but there is still plenty of review.

[Hottater]

My friend just lent us Life of Fred. He started on Monday and he's on chapter 13 of apples!!! I am so proud of him. AND HE LOVES IT. He'll be done apples by the end of the week! All the while tagging along to his sister's Dr. appointments and doing other homework. I can't believe how much he loves it. This is 'drop jaw' amazing. I know that Apples is the equivalent to Kindergarten, but this is still so much fun and the least time consuming ever, and he is learning mathy concepts and Mathematician history . Teacher intensity and involvement is close to 2of 10 (which is barely anything). ( When my DS loves it, the frustration is over for both of us. WHEW!!! Hope that if/when he gets to  "g or H" level in a month or 2, And if He gets into a nice groove and doesn't have the same road blocks, then I will have really found my answer.  As much as I want to try CLE- I think that LOF is doing what I could not with the other 2=Instantly love math.  I will eventually hand him some worksheets for reinforcement for harder multiplication problems, etc, but It's going to be LOF for awhile. Thank you wonderful ladies for all your input. And, he is answering things mostly correct without cheating and he understands the concepts readily. Somehow, I think that there is a method to learn every subject without too much drill and kill, just have to find the right combination for each kid. 

 

 

[kiwik]

Gently. It sounds as if you are not that confident teaching maths and you are very busy. If these are both true I think it would be better if you stuck to the teacher's manual and followed the programme rather than making decisions to not do things you don't think are important. If he can read well MM is an easily portable work text that is written to the student. Also from 3 up you can use the interactive version of MEP. Warning though it is easy to get the system to tell you the answers which my son thinks is more fun.

[Hottater]

Kiwik - I did follow MUS and We did place value notation, I didn't think it was important, but we did it anyway following how they did it. He got it at a very base level, but just couldn't make the leap forward. We did that place value Unit twice (I was never was taught this method in grade school- we just memorized the multiplication tables and applied them using simple carry over method and add up) but I understand it now,  and with MUS it reviews it until you know it very well, but he just couldn't do it with confidence to apply it to his multiple digit multiplication in a quick fashion. I reviewed multiplication tables and am still reviewing it, so that he's not taking 2 hours for 4 problems of 4756 x 349 for example. This has been the second year using the same curriculum MUS DVD and same stumbling blocks. I needed another way. It's painful to sit with him through this and he was struggling with his simple facts yet again. We have since put on timez attack and xtramath.com for simple math tables review and LOF. He still hasn't mastered 6,7,8,9 with times tables accurately with speed (3 second mastery) on his xtramath chart. I like the act of writing out his times tables once every day for 2 weeks, we'll see how that goes as well. --That idea was on the other thread that someone else linked me to.

 

 k button- i don't know about slowness - He seems to really understand most things well, it's not the same "slowness" that I have witnessed like other kids I've taught. First time knowing he has Irlen, and might possibly have a form of lexia. His Irlen- is a visual processing issue that was corrected, but I don't know if he's still missing something. I used a musical method MUS audio multiplication audio cd to memorize his times tables but it's not clicking fast enough. He has to run through the whole song to get one math fact right and sometimes he sings the fact wrong... So trying everything and anything to get him back to the right concepts track. 

[kbutton]

It might be time for an evaluation. It sounds like something is glitchy besides just the visual issues. Knowing what that is will be key to helping.

[kbutton]

It might be time for an evaluation. It sounds like something is glitchy besides just the visual issues. Knowing what that is will be key to helping.

[strawberryjam]

Stick with Singapore and follow the Home Instructor Guide. So much of the material is in there that is critical for the mental math aspect. Sooooo many people miss the importance of that guide for some reason, maybe it's cause the levels are sold in individual components and not as a kit? I don't know. If you follow the mental math at the end of the guide in order as suggested there would be no gap or sudden jump. The 17-5 would have been easy. Singapore uses a lot of manipulatives too, you don't need to take them away. Keep using them at the same time as building up the mental math concepts. Things like the Ten Frame are going to be really helpful for doing these kinds of questions (not just cuisinaire rods). There is a chart on the Singapore Math website that tells you which manipulatives to use for each level. They are not talked about in the workbook or textbook much (or at all) just in the home instructor guides. So there are the rods, and the ten frames, place value cards, counters, card games, special dice, 3D shapes, weights, balances, scales, etc.

[kiwik]

Visit the learning challenges board they are experts in things that are a bit glitchy.

[Hottater]

Barefoot Mommy - Wow... I didn't realize the SM's  HIG's were so important as well as the suggested manipulatives you just mentioned-- I figured I could just use the same square rods from Math U See in place of the cuisanaire rods , and the textbook was all I needed (I have so many manipulatives in the house, counting bears, flash cards,  Sigh... You would think they would incorporate the teacher's stuff with the textbook.)

 

 

But now my son loves LOF. He will have finished book one in 1 week, today is Sunday he can do the last 3 chapters in one day. If he continues at this pace, he can finish reading everything all the way to end of 3rd grade by the end of the summer  - Don't know what to do... We stopped just before 3A in Singapore. Trying to do what won't bleed us dry in the funds and the time. My friend is willing to loan us Life of Fred. - I even called the Library to have them purchase a set for our local library. And he self taught. I had no prep time what so ever. 

 

 I have many of the Singapore texts and workbooks through 6A --I didn't use the HIG's. Grrr... No wonder I'm at a loss. I bought used, and didn't think to research enough about the whole package, because at the used sales, none had HIG's.... I was doing what I could get for inexpensive or free and got so busy, that MUS was easier, cause he  would just play the  DVD and do the work. Poor kid... this mommy doesn't have all the right tools. Was trying to spend less teacher prep time on math so that english could go smoother. I really botched this one up.... I thought MUS would work... I went through Gamma TWICE... Units 18-27 Grr.

 

I just realized, if I had to buy all the HIG's and have $17.50 for each one, then it'd be $25.00 for 3A, 3B plus shipping and any manipulatives I don't have. I have some linking cubes, and the 100 chart and place value I could print out. Start him back on 3A with singapore? Grrr.. Teacher prep too? How long does that take? Juggling lesson planning is not my forte. Love open and go curriculums... 

[OneStepAtATime]

By the way, if lining up multidigit multiplication is an issue, look at lattice method. If you've never done it there is a steep learning curve but it was a huge game changer here.

[Hottater]

One Step- I looked at it. Lots of counting diagonally. I don't know if I could implement that on my own. (Besides youtube videos.) I made many mistakes doing it that way. I understood the premise once though. I will consider it. 

 

After a few weeks  of LOF maybe and the copying the http://donpotter.net/pdf/multiplication-matrix.pdfchart for awhile and then re try the multi digit stuff? Then, if it fails then Lattice? 6 times tables through the 9's he still hasn't mastered.

 

I am thinking about making Life of Fred my math Spine curriculum. I just can't see how I can take away the teacher prep time with all the other curriculum and maintain a sane homeschooling time and money budget for next semester. (LOF is borrowed so far...)

 

 

[kbutton]

Barefoot Mommy - Wow... I didn't realize the SM's  HIG's were so important as well as the suggested manipulatives you just mentioned-- I figured I could just use the same square rods from Math U See in place of the cuisanaire rods , and the textbook was all I needed (I have so many manipulatives in the house, counting bears, flash cards,  Sigh... You would think they would incorporate the teacher's stuff with the textbook.)

 

 

But now my son loves LOF. He will have finished book one in 1 week, today is Sunday he can do the last 3 chapters in one day. If he continues at this pace, he can finish reading everything all the way to end of 3rd grade by the end of the summer  - Don't know what to do... We stopped just before 3A in Singapore. Trying to do what won't bleed us dry in the funds and the time. My friend is willing to loan us Life of Fred. - I even called the Library to have them purchase a set for our local library. And he self taught. I had no prep time what so ever. 

 

 I have many of the Singapore texts and workbooks through 6A --I didn't use the HIG's. Grrr... No wonder I'm at a loss. I bought used, and didn't think to research enough about the whole package, because at the used sales, none had HIG's.... I was doing what I could get for inexpensive or free and got so busy, that MUS was easier, cause he  would just play the  DVD and do the work. Poor kid... this mommy doesn't have all the right tools. Was trying to spend less teacher prep time on math so that english could go smoother. I really botched this one up.... I thought MUS would work... I went through Gamma TWICE... Units 18-27 Grr.

 

I just realized, if I had to buy all the HIG's and have $17.50 for each one, then it'd be $25.00 for 3A, 3B plus shipping and any manipulatives I don't have. I have some linking cubes, and the 100 chart and place value I could print out. Start him back on 3A with singapore? Grrr.. Teacher prep too? How long does that take? Juggling lesson planning is not my forte. Love open and go curriculums... 

 

Are you doing everything in your signature? It's a lot. I think I would scale back the other stuff and work on math until you feel like you know what your son is getting and what he is not getting in math. If you feel that you need something open and go, maybe you should do something where the math lesson is scripted for you. 

 

Other random thoughts...what if he's getting hung up on something really simple and obvious, and it's being missed because he is self-teaching or watching videos? If you do more 1:1 for a little while, you may be able to find and target the problem much more efficiently than repeating entire levels of a curriculum or trying a new curriculum.

 

Lining up multiplication--you could try graph paper. One number per square. If he doesn't "get" how to line them up with a little assistance, he might need more place value work, one on one with you, until he understands it. My son's work is sloppy sometimes, but he totally understands place value. If he has trouble lining up his numbers in his answer, he siply goes back with a highlighter and highlights every other column. I do NOT suggest this--I mention it to show that lining things up is a typical problem for kids, BUT if they understand place value, that makes sorting it out possible. Try the graph paper first. You might have to find larger graph paper, or make your own and photocopy it. Or enlarge standard graph paper and copy it.

 

At this point, you need to figure out if he's stuck on conceptual stuff (place value, building numbers and taking them apart, etc.), process (steps used to multiply, for instance), or math facts. Conceptual is most important. The other stuff falls into line eventually if conceptual is solid. It may require hand holding from you. That's typical. If he's stuck on math facts, let him use a chart and see if it helps, assuming that he understands the idea of multiplication and can actually do it. Right now (gently), it sounds like you want to use a product with a guaranteed return. No such thing exists. ;-)

[OneStepAtATime]

One Step- I looked at it. Lots of counting diagonally. I don't know if I could implement that on my own. (Besides youtube videos.) I made many mistakes doing it that way. I understood the premise once though. I will consider it. 

 

After a few weeks  of LOF maybe and the copying the http://donpotter.net/pdf/multiplication-matrix.pdfchart for awhile and then re try the multi digit stuff? Then, if it fails then Lattice? 6 times tables through the 9's he still hasn't mastered.

 

I am thinking about making Life of Fred my math Spine curriculum. I just can't see how I can take away the teacher prep time with all the other curriculum and maintain a sane homeschooling time and money budget for next semester. (LOF is borrowed so far...)

Lattice method, just to clarify, was not a way for me to help DD with weak math facts.  We used other things for solidifying math facts and are still in that process.  I am not certain my post was all that clear.  Sorry if there was any confusion.  We used Lattice for multi-digit multiplication because DD had such a hard time with remembering how to line up the numbers in multi digit multiplication and which process to use when.  

 

With Lattice, she was able to do all the multiplication first, then all the addition second.  It also helped her see the place value better.  It made sense to her.  But she was taught by a math teacher who was excellent and is used to the method.  Then after DD learned it from her, DD taught me.  Then I got on Khan Academy for a refresher.  :)  It took a bit to get it, for me.  This was not how I was taught in school.  For her, though, it was a light bulb moment.  

[Hottater]

Yeah, we did switch to graph paper but the facts were being messed up and then he wouldn't add up correctly because he erased and put it in the wrong column etc. The MUS way was to put enough space to multiply everything out and then add so you would carry over the tens or hundreds number underneath the problem line not on top of your equation and cross off when you've added. I am thinking about just letting him write out his times tables more then use it as a cheat sheet for that day to do the harder problems later . I am glad that I wasn't the only one in this boat.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/550289-hit-a-wall-in-sm3a/?fromsearch=1

[Hottater]

https://www.facebook.com/suriafan/videos/10150523593249975/  is this lattice method? Should I just use this and be done with it? (he won't necessarily think about it in his brain in a mathy way though, right?