AP Calculus - How we (and others) did it...

[Joan in GE]

Hoping others will give their stories for both AB and BC so people will be able to see the options...and I know we used a lot of materials - I was nervous over here...:).

 

But he did get a 5 and did it in one semester (just AB). My problem was keeping up with the correcting since when someone is doing 2-3 hours of math a day - the problems add up quickly!

 

Since I think it is important to give background I'm starting back at grade school....

 

First, family background - while I did do a year of Calculus in college - I had completely forgotten it, so my son didn't have the advantage of a math gifted/trained mother... my husband had forgotten his Calculus as well. My ds2 has done a lot of calculus in college (engineering) but was quite busy, so only answered questions and discussed math on rare occasions.

 

Ds's math background - Saxon through Algebra I (and used Alg 1/2 c1999/2nd ed)

 

and the first 30 lessons of Algebra II (where he gave up saying he wasn't learning anything new). Then he started into Foerster Alg II, but was just overwhelmed and stopped after the several chapters...he was doing this 2 days a week while doing geom..

 

Jacob's Geometry 2nd edition

 

At the same time he was preparing for Swiss math tests...they do more practical geometry and he was just solidifying his other knowledge..

 

Algebra II and Trig - Dolciani '77 edition for the first 10 chapters, then an older edition for the last 6 ( I liked the explanations better most of the time)...

 

Precalculus - Foerster 2nd ed - see this post

 

Calculus - Larson here I'll go into more detail...

 

General plan - he was to read the textbook BEFORE watching the DVD lesson, and take notes...do the other types of projects and labs as on the syllabus.

 

I had gotten the 8th edition of Calculus with Analytic Geometry (though we didn't end up using half of the book since we were only doing Calculus AB)

 

I found a syllabus online which had all the problems the teacher was assigning...on this page with sample AP approved syllabi....which went with our book. I chose one that was using block scheduling since that was what we were doing.

 

Then I researched all the things that would be required for an AP approved syllabus for AP Calculus...there is an enormous amount of information on the CB website AP Calculus homepage...

 

and made my own syllabus from that to cover the types of labs which were on the syllabus I'd found, which included Explorations from Foerster's Calculus Instructor's Resource Book, various kinds of word problems found online which involved more complicated real life situations...

 

We also used a Watched Cup Never Cools for projects, but to be honest, he did most of those AFTER the exam...

 

The other books besides the student Calculus book, which for us were really indispensable were the

(imp note - if you are going with Larson, it would be probably cheaper to order the stuff directly from the publisher rather than piece by piece from Amazon. Some sellers are making a killing on teacher's materials that are cheaper from the publisher).

 

AP Calculus Released exams by CB - you can see how points are awarded for various types of answers on the Free Response Questions

Solutions AP Calculus Problems - you have to know which ones go with which chapter you are covering, which I found on Wilson's syllabus (from the above sample syllabi)

Complete Solutions book - vol 1

Complete Solutions book vol 2

DVD's

Instructor's Resource Guide - has 5 different tests for each chapter - 3 multiple choice and 2 open answers...mine did at least one of each

Test Bank (ETA - wrong name - it is Test Item File) - 9780618527960 - this was useful for the chapters where only part of the material was covered on the AP, so we couldn't use the regular chapter tests (unless you know calculus well enough yourself to eliminate the questions covering material you haven't touched) - you have to get it from the publisher

 

Teacher's Resource Guide 9780618527984 - tells what's covered in the AP and what is not...

Be Prepared for the AP Calculus Exam - very useful part about the graphing calculator use on the exam...and good overall review...

AP Study Guides - Cliff's

 

If I had to do it over again - I would have gotten a book with Multiple Choice practice questions like this one...

 

Most important for people like me (calculus is forgotten) was a tutor to whom we could turn...I could correct problems with the solutions books, but sometime ds did them in a different way, and I had no clue whether they were right or not...Also, I wanted ds to be able to talk about math with someone who knows AP Calc exams, to talk about the Free Response questions - do them on the spot a bit...So we were able to use Gmail video chat combined with an online whiteboard which makes it easy to write math problems with Kathy in Richmond for tutoring. Even though we didn't use that many hours (and the time included the time that she would correct problems that I sent her with solutions), this was so invaluable to us...It helped make sure that ds was on the right track and staying there....Highly recommended!

 

Important sites:

Cengage - Calculus labs - used some,not all

Mr. Bird's Calc page - used his memorization quizzes, Nspire intro, etc.

Calculus.org

Calculus in Motion - ds played around with these...

Java Applets - and these

 

We used some things from these books but I don't know if they are indispensable

800 questions

other Calculus books which he would study if he didn't understand how a concept was presented (Foerster, Thomas).. that happened more in the beginning than the end...

 

ETA - continued a bit more in next post at the bottom

 

HTH and hoping others will share their story,

Joan

Edited August 7, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[kubiac]

Great post!

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you so much for sharing this with us - great info!!! :)

[at the beach]

Joan, Wow, thank you for sharing all this great information! Thanks also for sharing with us his math progression up to that point.

 

And big congrats to your son on his score.:party:

[MorningGlory]

Thank you for such detailed information, Joan.

Saving this post...

[flyingiguana]

My daughter checked all her own answers, so that saved me a lot of time. I figured my time was better spent in explaining than just looking up whether she'd gotten problems right.

 

We also managed to get a book with a full solutions manual, which helped a lot. My daughter was able to see where she'd gone wrong without having to get me involved. This was a big time saver for both of us as she didn't have to wait for me to be available unless she couldn't figure out the solution manual. The truth is, she mostly taught herself, did fine on the AP test, and has moved on to higher math in college without any problem. (I highly recommend letting students loose on the solutions manual. There's no need for an intermediary except to explain really sticky points.)

 

We also had a test bank book, but the test problems were really pretty awful and didn't have much to do with how the AP tests worked. We gave up on them and my daughter did a lot of tests in AP prep books instead as preparation for the big test.

 

If you're aiming for the AP test, you probably want a pretty good rundown on what to cover and what to skip. There's a lot of material in a calculus book. If a student is taking a class, the professor will leave a lot of it out in the interests of actually getting finished within the year. The AP site gives a general list of topics, but even within those there are things that should be covered more deeply than others. The prep books were a lot better indicator of what to cover than that list.

 

But then the AP people will put something on the test that was clearly not on their list. In fact, the year my daughter took the test, there was a free response question that covered a topic the list had specifically said would NOT be on the test. There was a fair amount of outcry among AP teachers that year, as I recall.

[ma23peas]

Just printed out all your notes!! It's going right into my senior prep notebook!!! :) Thank you!!!

[Joan in GE]

I'm glad you shared your experience...it sounds like you are more up on your math than I am.

 

My daughter checked all her own answers, so that saved me a lot of time. I figured my time was better spent in explaining than just looking up whether she'd gotten problems right.

 

I'll just share why I did check...since you were explaining, you might have been able to make sure she was going about it in the right way from the beginning.

 

In precalc, one of his problems was taking too long to do problems. Sometimes that can be due to not solving a problem in the most efficient way. So I had resolved to be more involved and keep track of how he was solving problems.

 

Also, sometimes, he would have thought the answer was ok, when it wasn't. (Though there were times also when I was unsure and Kathy was able to check).

 

Since he will be taking Calculus in college, I didn't care if he had to solve test problems that weren't going to be like the AP ones - as well as the AP type - since I thought it would just help him later on...

 

Also, my sister who was a math teacher said that it was important to check their work because if they just think they get it because they see the right answer, they might not really understand it well enough to reproduce the right answer alone.

 

It sounds like your daughter did just fine doing it your way - so it's good for people to see options and evaluate which method fits their student. Thanks again for posting!

 

If a student is taking a class, the professor will leave a lot of it out in the interests of actually getting finished within the year.

True - that was the value of finding a syllabus with the problems listed - otherwise there are way too many to do.

 

I forgot to mention in the original post that Foerster's Calculus book talks a lot about solving problems verbally, graphically, analytically, and numerically (though how they interpret that seems a bit different from the CB) but his book was still helpful for seeing how differently Calculus can be taught.

 

Also, I forgot to mention that ds also did the Math Level 1 and 2 SAT II exams...Since precalc is still tested a bit in the AP, I thought it important to check ds's acquisition externally.

 

Joan

[Jane Elliot]

My son got a 5 on the BC exam. I'll post what he did below, but I'll say right here that I didn't do any checking or explaining. He worked completely independently. Maybe this will encourage a parent whose dc wants to do the Calculus BC exam even though the parent is not going to be able to be a lot of help. I did have someone we could have called to tutor, but ds never felt he needed it. My only involvement was to find and order resources and arrange for him to take the exam at our local high school.

 

We didn't follow an AP syllabus, so rather than putting "AP Calculus" on his transcript, the course went onto his transcript as "Calclulus with AP Exam", and I put his AP scores at the bottom of the transcript. Thanks go to Kathy in Richmond for this idea (and many other ideas! You are greatly appreciated here, Kathy!)

 

Great idea, Joan, to post the math leading up to Calculus. This ds followed the following sequence:

 

Horizons 1 and 2

Saxon Math 54 through Algebra I

Jacobs Geometry

Chalkdust Algebra II and PreCalculus

 

He did not take the AB exam. Instead, as a high school senior, he spent two semesters studying for the BC exam. Afterward, I asked him to help me write down what he did so I would remember for my younger dc. For the sake of time (because I want to go hiking today;)) I'll just cut and paste it from my Word document here:

 

"He used Thinkwell Calculus (not the AP option, which was not available). He recommends finishing Thinkwell a few months early in order to use Princeton Review or Barron’s study guides (both are good). One of the best things to do are the free response questions on the College Board website a few weeks before the exam. The practice tests from CB were helpful, too. He used Khan Academy a little bit, but it was a bit too basic."

 

Thank you, Joan, for starting this thread. I've benefited so much from these types of threads on this board. It's led us to try things we might have been too intimidated to try otherwise. I'll be copying the other posts into my file so that I'll have them available for my other dc who might need a different plan than this ds did.

[moki4]

Thank you so much! I will add your detailed response to my binder which contains Kathy-in-Richmonds post regarding AP test schedules.

 

Our Dd (just turned 14 a few days ago) is currently working through pre-calc Larson (just beginning chapter 2). I am assuming that she will do Calc next yr. If it is an AP Calc, will she be able to test for AB/BC in the spring of that year? Is there a difference between AP Calc and Calc 1? We may have her enroll through PAhomeschoolers.

 

Also, she will finish precalc by spring...can she do SAT 2 subject tests for math 1 and 2 at that time? Gosh, I REALLY want to get the timing right!

 

Thank you so much!:)

[memphispeg]

Joan;

We are using Larson for calc. BC. I got something called a "Test Item File". It has questions for each section of each chapter. I am using it to give quizzes on one or several sections at a time. Unfortunately, the answers are posted right after each question..... So you either have to copy them out or hide the answers with postit strips and xerox them!!!! (Rant - Why do they do that!) My dd needs weekly math assessments. She is a huge fan of Mr. Khan's videos. She used him for pre-calc.

BTW - dd will be sad to know that Foerster has a calc. book. She misses him. But, we are trying to do BC so, he did not look to be the wisest choice.

 

Thanks for this tremendous post!!!!! Bookmarking "everything!"

[Joan in GE]

Joan;

We are using Larson for calc. BC. I got something called a "Test Item File". It has questions for each section of each chapter. I am using it to give quizzes on one or several sections at a time. Unfortunately, the answers are posted right after each question..... So you either have to copy them out or hide the answers with postit strips and xerox them!!!! (Rant - Why do they do that!)

 

My book has the same name - I just had it in my mind that it was a Test Bank. BUT it has all the answers at the end of the chapter! Much better. It is for the Eighth Edition.

 

This part is to answer a PM I got in case anyone else has the same question. The person was wondering how long it takes to do AB with the test prep....

 

Here are the different scenarios I've read about - if others know more, please chime in.

 

You can do AB daily over the school year.

You can do AB block schedule over the school year (every other day with double periods).

We did AB block schedule in one semester (because it was the only one of the AP exams left that ds needed to be admitted this coming fall). This way is not really best but ok for a pinch.

 

You can do BC (which includes AB) over the school year.

You can do BC over a year and a half.

 

When I compared the AB to the BC syllabus - it did not seem like there was really that much more additional work for the BC ie not equivalent time wise to the time for AB. Maybe someone who has done BC can explain more about what is done for it? Like I'm not quite sure how it is equivalent to a whole other semester.

 

ETA answer to this post - sorry I forgot before:

Our Dd (just turned 14 a few days ago) is currently working through pre-calc Larson (just beginning chapter 2). I am assuming that she will do Calc next yr. If it is an AP Calc, will she be able to test for AB/BC in the spring of that year? Is there a difference between AP Calc and Calc 1? We may have her enroll through PAhomeschoolers.

 

Also, she will finish precalc by spring...can she do SAT 2 subject tests for math 1 and 2 at that time? Gosh, I REALLY want to get the timing right!

 

So she should be able to do AB/BC in the spring. My understanding is that AB is equal to Calc I, but I haven't really investigated this fully. Maybe someone else can answer or you can search old posts...

 

I had ds(3) do his SAT 2 tests when he had finished the materials, so he did Math 1 at the end of Alg/Trig and Math 2 in Jan after his semester block scheduling of Precalculus.

 

 

Joan

Edited August 8, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Chez J]

SNIP...

Here are the different scenarios I've read about - if others know more, please chime in.

 

You can do AB daily over the school year.

You can do AB block schedule over the school year (every other day with double periods).

We did AB block schedule in one semester (because it was the only one of the AP exams left that ds needed to be admitted this coming fall). This way is not really best but ok for a pinch.

 

You can do BC (which includes AB) over the school year.

You can do BC over a year and a half.

 

When I compared the AB to the BC syllabus - it did not seem like there was really that much more additional work for the BC ie not equivalent time wise to the time for AB. Maybe someone who has done BC can explain more about what is done for it? Like I'm not quite sure how it is equivalent to a whole other semester.

 

ETA answer to this post - sorry I forgot before:

 

 

So she should be able to do AB/BC in the spring. My understanding is that AB is equal to Calc I, but I haven't really investigated this fully. Maybe someone else can answer or you can search old posts...

 

Joan

 

I am thinking about math progression and science sequences. I know this comes up a lot. Thank you for this thread!

 

My dd has skipped a grade into 7th. She wants to keep the skip and graduate a year early. (We may say no due to the issues in this post.)

 

......................8..............9...........................10........................11..................12

math.............alg I...........geometry..................alg II....................pre-calc..........ap calc

science.........phys sci.......apologia bio..............apologia. chem.......AP Chem.................

....................................Hewitt Con. Phy.........AP phys................AP Phys C........AP Phys C

 

There are three different AP Physics courses she can take, which I would guess would be nothing but beneficial.

 

Texas guidelines are 4 credits in math: alg I, geom, alg II, and another. With alg I in 8th, she has two years to fill in high school.

 

Must she take pre-calc for a full year? Or, can she go from alg II to AP Calc AB then AP Calc BC?

 

Can she do AP Physics concurrently with algebra II? Can she take AP Physics C concurrently with pre-calc?

 

How can I make the math work so that she can take all the advanced math and physics? She wants to be an engineer.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Chez J
fix table for easier reading

[snowbeltmom]

I am thinking about math progression and science sequences. I know this comes up a lot. Thank you for this thread!

 

My dd has skipped a grade into 7th. She wants to keep the skip and graduate a year early. (We may say no due to the issues in this post.)

 

......................8..............9...........................10........................11..................12

math.............alg I...........geometry..................alg II....................pre-calc..........ap calc

science.........phys sci.......apologia bio..............apologia. chem.......AP Chem.................

....................................Hewitt Con. Phy.........AP phys................AP Phys C........AP Phys C

 

There are three different AP Physics courses she can take, which I would guess would be nothing but beneficial.

 

Can she do AP Physics concurrently with algebra II? Can she take AP Physics C concurrently with pre-calc?

 

How can I make the math work so that she can take all the advanced math and physics? She wants to be an engineer.

 

Your dd will be fine taking AP Physics B concurrently with Alg. II. The AP Physics B course is algebra based. In addition to the algebra, your dd would just need to know very basic trig concepts of Sin, Cos, Tan- something that could be taught in 15 minutes.

 

The other two AP Physics courses are Calculus based. At the very least, your dd would need to be taking Calculus concurrently with these physics classes. Unlike AP Physics B, the calculus based physics is divided into two different AP courses (and two different AP tests) - AP Physics C Mechanics and AP Physics C Electricity & Magnetism.

[Joan in GE]

There are three different AP Physics courses she can take, which I would guess would be nothing but beneficial.

 

I don't know enough about the Physics C courses...eg she might want to be leaning more towards one than another...but you might want to start a separate thread about it to get answers from more people with interest in Physics..

 

Must she take pre-calc for a full year? Or, can she go from alg II to AP Calc AB then AP Calc BC?

 

Mine did Pre-calc in half a year, but with block scheduling timewise (double period each day)...this might be another thread too. I don't have enough math experience to know. If you could do it in half a year, then you could start the AB in the second semester and continue on and finish it all up the 2nd year and take the BC exam (which has the AB grade as a subgrade).

 

Can she do AP Physics concurrently with algebra II? Can she take AP Physics C concurrently with pre-calc?

 

About doing them concurrently I think it might depend on how much was learned with Hewitt...My ds3 started out trying to do the Giancoli book (typically used for Physics B) while doing Alg II. (BUT he hadn't had physics before at all). Because he hadn't had enough practice doing the Alg II problems and was therefore "slow" at doing them, it was just taking too long. So we reverted back to an easier physics book and then he did B the next year (in 11th).

 

How can I make the math work so that she can take all the advanced math and physics? She wants to be an engineer.

 

Well, if you only do one Physics C, and do Precalc in half a year and then start ab/bc Calc in the spring semester, she'd have gotten some calc before starting the Physics C.

 

Also, people might be able to tell you if it is possible to do one of the Physics C in one semester and the other in another semester.

 

It partly depends on how much time she is willing to devote to the coursework as well AND probably more importantly, how quickly she can absorb and comprehend it all.

 

Joan

[Chez J]

Must she take pre-calc for a full year? Or, can she go from alg II to AP Calc AB then AP Calc BC?

 

Or, could we do pre-calc for a semester, then Calc AB for a semester? Then Calc BC for a full year?

 

In reading Joan's post, it seems like Calc AB and BC have a lot of overlap.

 

ETA: Joan, you were posting at the same time I was. Reading your reply now. THANKS!

[Joan in GE]

Chez J,

 

There's lots of overlap...on this site you can peruse the syllabi of both...

 

AB seems to be about the first 2/3's of BC...from one's I've compared. Though I haven't looked at all the problems done...

 

http://fivay.org/syllabus/

 

Joan

[Jane Elliot]

Must she take pre-calc for a full year? Or, can she go from alg II to AP Calc AB then AP Calc BC?

 

Or, could we do pre-calc for a semester, then Calc AB for a semester? Then Calc BC for a full year?

 

In reading Joan's post, it seems like Calc AB and BC have a lot of overlap.

 

ETA: Joan, you were posting at the same time I was. Reading your reply now. THANKS!

 

The Calculus BC exam gives a subscore for Calc AB. You don't necessarily need to do both exams, but the skills learned for Calc AB are needed for Calc BC.

 

Here was the progression for my son.

 

10th - Alg II and Chemistry

11th - PreCalc and Physics (He did not do the Phys B exam, but I'm sure he could have.)

12th - Calculus (started in May of junior year as soon as he finished PreCalc and did it over the summer and through his senior year) and Advanced Physics C with Course Repository (started in August after an intense summer of Calculus)

 

In May of his senior year he took Calc BC and both Physics C exams getting a 5 on all and a 5 on the subscore for Calc AB.

 

There is no way you could do Physics C without at least doing Calculus concurrently. Even then, it's nice to have a jumpstart on Calculus before starting Physics C. That's why ds spent the summer on it. Additionally, I would not consider going straight from Alg II to Calculus, but a motivated kid could either race through PreCalc or do Calc AB&BC in one year and just take the BC exam. In the latter case, she'd still get the subscore for AB. HTH!

Edited November 10, 2011 by Luann in ID

[Create Your Ritual]

Listening in.. thanks!

[Chez J]

12th - Calculus (started in May of junior year as soon as he finished PreCalc and did it over the summer and through his senior year) and Advanced Physics C with Course Repository (started in August after an intense summer of Calculus)

 

 

 

Ah ha! Maybe! If she is really wanting to keep her skip and graduate early, then she could spend a summer on pre-calculus and start Calc AB in the fall?

 

10 Algebra II

10th summer school pre-calculus

11th Calc AB

12th Calc BC

 

How would I handle that on a transcript?

[Joan in GE]

In May of his senior year he took Calc BC and both Physics C exams getting a 5 on all and a 5 on the subscore for Calc AB.

 

Congrats!

 

I thought I'd read of people doing both Physics C exams in one year...So did you do them simultaneously or one after the other?

 

Joan

[Joan in GE]

11th Calc AB

12th Calc BC

 

How would I handle that on a transcript?

 

Really, you do not need a whole year to do the BC, of that I am sure. There are classes doing just BC (and including at first the AB part in the first part of the year). I think I didn't explain that well. (ETA - I see that still is poorly explained. I meant the BC part that is in addition to the AB part which is included within the course).

 

If you look at the syllabi on the link above and compare an AB and a BC by the same teacher...you'll see that all the first subjects are the same on the BC syllabi as the beginning as the AB one.

 

On the transcript you could put Precalc summer school, or list by subject...

 

Joan

Edited November 10, 2011 by Joan in Geneva

[Chez J]

Really, you do not need a whole year to do the BC, of that I am sure. There are classes doing just BC (and including at first the AB part in the first part of the year). I think I didn't explain that well.

 

If you look at the syllabi on the link above and compare an AB and a BC by the same teacher...you'll see that all the first subjects are the same on the BC syllabi as the beginning as the AB one.

 

On the transcript you could put Precalc summer school, or list by subject...

 

Joan

 

Yes, I guess my problem is the two physics c classes. Maybe AP Physics B and one of the other AP Physics C classes is all we can do.

[Chez J]

T

 

In May of his senior year he took Calc BC and both Physics C exams getting a 5 on all and a 5 on the subscore for Calc AB.

 

 

Yes, congrats to him! What texts did you use for all your math and science. :D

[regentrude]

My dd has skipped a grade into 7th. She wants to keep the skip and graduate a year early. (We may say no due to the issues in this post.)

 

......................8..............9...........................10........................11..................12

math.............alg I...........geometry..................alg II....................pre-calc..........ap calc

science.........phys sci.......apologia bio..............apologia. chem.......AP Chem.................

....................................Hewitt Con. Phy.........AP phys................AP Phys C........AP Phys C

 

There are three different AP Physics courses she can take, which I would guess would be nothing but beneficial.

 

May I ask why you want to have her take FOUR years of physics?

If she is accelerated, a strong math and science student, and doing algebra 1 in 8th grade, you could start right away with an algebra based physics course in 9th grade and aim for AP B. You do not have to do conceptual first. (My DD was in a similar situation, one year grade skipped, and took algebra/trig based college physics 1 and 2 at age 13/14. We did not see any benefit in having her her take the AP B exam because she will take calc based physics anyway. )

 

You could then double up on math and finish BOTH algebra 2 and precalculus in 10th grade (which is what we are doing right now).

You can also teach both halves of calculus based physics in one year; a university calc based physics course consists of two semesters, one for mechanics and one for electricity and magnetism.

 

One question: what is your goal with the AP Physics C exams? If she is going into engineering, it may not be in her best interest to test out of introductory physics courses at the university. If you want the AP score to boost the transcript for college admission, please remember that only scores from the end of 11th grade will be seen on the application.

[snowbeltmom]

Yes, I guess my problem is the two physics c classes. Maybe AP Physics B and one of the other AP Physics C classes is all we can do.

Even if you can only complete one of the physics C classes, your dd will be in great shape, imo. The vast majority of schools in my area (including the #1 ranked school in the entire state) do not even offer AP Physics C.

 

Also, in my area the kids take either AP Calc AB or AP Calc BC. Calc BC encompasses all of the material of AB and then moves on to the BC material. Obviously, the pace of the BC class is much faster - usually covering all of the AB material in the 1st semester and then the BC material in the second semester.

[Joan in GE]

Also, in my area the kids take either AP Calc AB or AP Calc BC. Calc BC encompasses all of the material of AB and then moves on to the BC material. Obviously, the pace of the BC class is much faster - usually covering all of the AB material in the 1st semester and then the BC material in the second semester.

 

Yes, this is it. I did a terrible job explaining before! Sorry to confuse people!

[Jane Elliot]

Yes, this is it. I did a terrible job explaining before! Sorry to confuse people!

 

And I hope I didn't confuse anyone. Calc BC is definitely do-able in one year. The reason ds started in the summer was to have some of it under his belt before beginning Physics C. This ended up working out well for him.

[Jane Elliot]

Congrats!

 

I thought I'd read of people doing both Physics C exams in one year...So did you do them simultaneously or one after the other?

 

Joan

 

He followed the NROC syllabi (Physics C for AP I and II). The first semester covers mechanics and the second semester covers electricity and magnetism. He finished early enough to review everything with study guides and practice exams before he took the exams in May.

[Jane Elliot]

Yes, congrats to him! What texts did you use for all your math and science. :D

 

Math:

Saxon Math 54 through Algebra I

Jacobs Geometry

Chalkdust Algebra II and PreCalculus

Thinkwell Calculus (not the AP option, which was not available at the time)

 

Science:

Apologia Biology

Apologia Chemistry

Apologia Physics and Advanced Physics

Fundamentals of Physics by Halliday et al., 7th ed. using NROC syllabi

[Chez J]

May I ask why you want to have her take FOUR years of physics?

If she is accelerated, a strong math and science student, and doing algebra 1 in 8th grade, you could start right away with an algebra based physics course in 9th grade and aim for AP B. You do not have to do conceptual first. (My DD was in a similar situation, one year grade skipped, and took algebra/trig based college physics 1 and 2 at age 13/14. We did not see any benefit in having her her take the AP B exam because she will take calc based physics anyway. )

 

You could then double up on math and finish BOTH algebra 2 and precalculus in 10th grade (which is what we are doing right now).

You can also teach both halves of calculus based physics in one year; a university calc based physics course consists of two semesters, one for mechanics and one for electricity and magnetism.

 

One question: what is your goal with the AP Physics C exams? If she is going into engineering, it may not be in her best interest to test out of introductory physics courses at the university. If you want the AP score to boost the transcript for college admission, please remember that only scores from the end of 11th grade will be seen on the application.

 

 

Thank you for chiming in! We live in Texas, so she really wants to go to UT Austin. It's extremely difficult to get into with the mandatory top 10 (which is actually a top 8 at UT) percent admission requirement. They have very limited spaces for all the other students. Last year it was only about 1950 spots. According to wiki, "UT-Austin has argued for several years that the law has come to account for too many of its entering students, with 81 percent of the 2008 freshmen having enrolled under it." In fact, we have contemplated sending her to school for this very reason. GRRR!

 

The engineering advisor told us to take all the AP classes we could. She is going to have to look better than others applying. AP Physics B looks like possibly the only course I could get in before the 11th grade cutoff for sending applications. That was one reason to try to get in another.

 

It looks like the AP board has added a physics course (maybe I'm just remembering wrong from the last time I looked). I was reading the physics c, and they look like two different courses. So, I was not thinking they were going to be redundant.

 

I am not aiming so much for her to test out of taking classes at university, just trying to help her get a spot and then be strong enough in her background to not be one of the students who is weeded out.

 

(Note: I am an engineering dropout because my high school did NOT prepare me for the difficultly of university level chemistry and physics.)

[Chez J]

This is the science requirement for Greenhill School in Dallas, a top private school...(I don't know how to translate all the "mechanics" courses)

 

At a minimum, students are required to take a two-year sequence of Chemistry and Biology (core courses) and three trimesters of Physics, including both Mechanics 1 and Mechanics 2 plus one more physics elective OR Honors Physics. Other elective science courses, whether AP or not, are recommended for students interested in science, engineering, medicine, or liberal arts programs in college. Students doing exceptionally well in their Chemistry, Biology or Honors Physics courses should consider taking the SAT 2 in that subject after completing the course.

 

 

 

Dallas Science and Engineering Magnet offers AP Physics B, AP Physics C, AP Chemistry, AP Calculus, AP English and more such as foreign language.

 

So, I need to compete with these kids! :001_huh:

[snowbeltmom]

The engineering advisor told us to take all the AP classes we could. She is going to have to look better than others applying. AP Physics B looks like possibly the only course I could get in before the 11th grade cutoff for sending applications. That was one reason to try to get in another.

 

You could also have your dd take AP Chemistry before that 11th grade cutoff. AP Chemistry requires a strong algebra background (including logarithms). Fwiw, my oldest took AP Physics B in 9th grade and is taking AP Chemistry this year. Some of the topics in the AP Physics course are covered in the AP Chemistry so having the physics before chemistry has been a plus (although not a necessity.)

 

If your dd in going into engineering, I think it would be more beneficial for your dd to take AP Chemistry than AP Physics C if you only had time in her schedule for one of the classes.

[Chez J]

You could also have your dd take AP Chemistry before that 11th grade cutoff. AP Chemistry requires a strong algebra background (including logarithms). Fwiw, my oldest took AP Physics B in 9th grade and is taking AP Chemistry this year. Some of the topics in the AP Physics course are covered in the AP Chemistry so having the physics before chemistry has been a plus (although not a necessity.)

 

If your dd in going into engineering, I think it would be more beneficial for your dd to take AP Chemistry than AP Physics C if you only had time in her schedule for one of the classes.

 

Yes, it is in my plan. :D

[Kathy in Richmond]

Just a heads-up for you:

 

The AP Physics B exams are in a state of flux and will be redesigned before your daughter gets to that level (the current course descriptions are located here). From what I understand, the details of these new courses are still up in the air. Instead of a one-year course, the College Board plans to offer Physics B over two years in the future, splitting up the topics and offering two different B level exams. I expect that the first year topics will have fewer mathematical prerequisites, so you might well be able to do that part in grade 10. However, if I were you, I'd wait until all these changes settle in before mapping out a physics sequence for your daughter.

 

As for Physics C - You can do definitely do both Mechanics and Electricity & Magnetism in one year if your daughter is well-prepared. It helps to have had a prior exposure to physics (like high school honors physics or physics B level) and a calculus background before you start. If she's going to be learning calculus concurrently with Physics C, it's still doable, but you might want to go a bit slower and only do the Mechanics portion.

 

My kids did the Physics C exams with great enjoyment and top scores in 11th grade at home. Several of us talked about our plans and textbooks in this old thread and also in this one.

 

I like to recommend a whole year of precalculus before calculus to my students. There's just SO much good math that you can fit into the precalculus year (especially for a future engineer or any STEM field). Most of it is just too valuable to miss! Take a look at the Table of Contents for the AoPS Algebra 3 and Precalculus course offerings for an idea of what I mean. My kids and I find these topics much more fascinating to study than calculus, which we find rather mechanical and routine. You might also enjoy reading this article about the "calculus trap" pertaining to highly able math students and also this one about the importance of discrete math, both written by Richard Rusczyk, the founder of AoPS.

 

Then, after that year of precalculus, I'd recommend that a math-talented student (and especially one planning a STEM major in college) study the Calculus BC curriculum. As others have said, there is no need for a separate year of Calculus AB in between precalculus and Calc BC. I think of the two levels of AP calculus as an either-or choice, and I think it looks kind of weak to do both AB and BC if she's planning to shoot for a competitive college. I know that a lot of schools have students complete both courses over two years, but I suspect they do it because they have nothing else to offer kids who've completed calculus.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Kathy in Richmond

[Chez J]

Just a heads-up for you:

 

The AP Physics B exams are in a state of flux and will be redesigned before

 

Thanks for that bit of info! Will keep a watch on that!

 

 

My kids did the Physics C exams with great enjoyment and top scores in 11th grade at home. Several of us talked about our plans and textbooks in this old thread and also in this one.

 

 

These are both linked to the same thread, which is a very good thread. Should there be two great threads to read? :D

 

 

My replies are imbedded.

[Kathy in Richmond]

My replies are imbedded.

 

Oops! I had some troubles getting one of the links to work. Guess I went back and re-linked the wrong thread.:tongue_smilie:

Here's the other thread!

[Chez J]

 

Originally Posted by Chez J

My dd has skipped a grade into 7th. She wants to keep the skip and graduate a year early. (We may say no due to the issues in this post.)

 

......................8..............9............ ...............10........................11....... ...........12

math.............alg I...........geometry..................alg II....................pre-calc..........ap calc

science.........phys sci.......apologia bio..............apologia. chem.......AP Chem.................

....................................Hewitt Con. Phy.........AP phys................AP Phys C........AP Phys C

 

There are three different AP Physics courses she can take, which I would guess would be nothing but beneficial.

 

May I ask why you want to have her take FOUR years of physics?

If she is accelerated, a strong math and science student, and doing algebra 1 in 8th grade, you could start right away with an algebra based physics course in 9th grade and aim for AP B. You do not have to do conceptual first. (My DD was in a similar situation, one year grade skipped, and took algebra/trig based college physics 1 and 2 at age 13/14. We did not see any benefit in having her her take the AP B exam because she will take calc based physics anyway. )

 

You could then double up on math and finish BOTH algebra 2 and precalculus in 10th grade (which is what we are doing right now).

You can also teach both halves of calculus based physics in one year; a university calc based physics course consists of two semesters, one for mechanics and one for electricity and magnetism.

 

One question: what is your goal with the AP Physics C exams? If she is going into engineering, it may not be in her best interest to test out of introductory physics courses at the university. If you want the AP score to boost the transcript for college admission, please remember that only scores from the end of 11th grade will be seen on the application.

 

 

I re-read this this morning while on my third cup of coffee. :lol: I think I see what you propose now.

 

8th...........................9th...........................10th........................11th

alg I.........................geom.........................alg II.......................AP Calc

...............................................................precalc..................................

apologia phys sci........apologia bio.................apologia chem...........AP Chem................

...............................AP physics B..............................................AP Phy Mech

 

 

That's still three credits per year, but one year is two of math instead of two in science.

[MorningGlory]

I re-read this this morning while on my third cup of coffee. :lol: I think I see what you propose now.

 

8th...........................9th...........................10th........................11th

alg I.........................geom.........................alg II.......................AP Calc

...............................................................precalc..................................

apologia phys sci........apologia bio.................apologia chem...........AP Chem................

...............................AP physics B..............................................AP Phy Mech

 

This seems kind of "squished" to me. I'm not sure it would serve your daughter's best interests to take Alg II and PreCalc concurrently. Hopefully, Kathy and Regentrude and the like will speak to this...I love, love, love reading their posts. But I'll go ahead and talk, too.

 

One idea is to just keep your math courses rolling...one right after the other. For example, my ds started Jacobs Alg. I...finished it well before the school year was over...so we just rolled right into Jacobs Geometry. Ds will finish it in early Feb...so we will go right into the next course (which will be an AoPS course like Counting or Number Theory...I do NOT want to rush him through his math. I want him to enjoy and investigate the subject just like Kathy suggested). If you do this sort of thing and use the summers, you can easily finish the Alg. I, Geometry, Alg. II sequence in a shorter time period. THEN take PreCalc and then Calculus BC.

 

Another thing I would note is that your daughter might find Apologia rather mind-numbing after using all of those texts (dodging flames here). You will probably enjoy researching all the different programs that are now available to homeschoolers (I sure do). You do not have to use Apologia all those years. Just a thought!

 

One more thought: Your daughter could conceivably skip the physical science (especially if you choose Apologia) and go ahead and take Bio in 8th. I would just make sure that your state/desired university would accept that 8th grade credit. My son is reading...just reading...through Miller/Levine bio this year in 8th grade and then will take a research-based, living books type of bio next year in 9th (if all goes according to plan). He could have easily handled bio as a credit course this year in 8th (non AP).

 

HTH! And hope others will chime in.

Jetta

[Catherine]

My ds took calculus BC through PA homeschoolers. But I wanted to list the texts he used, because they are different from what I see many of you have used.

 

eighth grade: Thinkwell Intermediate Algebra, Gelfand (did not complete either)

ninth grade: Geometry at PS-teacher-created curriculum

tenth grade: Lial's Algebra 2\trig\precalculus (considerable overlap-he just did all of the chapters for each topics once) plus Schaum's outlines for extra practice problems

eleventh grade: online AP calc BC through PA homeschoolers. Teacher was wonderful, good course (but a lot of work). He got a 5 on the exam and 5 AB subscore.

[Chez J]

This seems kind of "squished" to me. I'm not sure it would serve your daughter's best interests to take Alg II and PreCalc concurrently. Hopefully, Kathy and Regentrude and the like will speak to this...I love, love, love reading their posts. But I'll go ahead and talk, too.

 

 

Maybe I misread Regentrude's post, but I was reading her reply to me as proposing the alg II/ precalc concurrently. And, you're right, I too respect what they have to say.

 

 

Another thing I would note is that your daughter might find Apologia rather mind-numbing after using all of those texts (dodging flames here). You will probably enjoy researching all the different programs that are now available to homeschoolers (I sure do). You do not have to use Apologia all those years. Just a thought!

 

We will do the Apologia listed because dd attends a university model school where that is used. She really wants to take those classes with other kids. She's in General Science now and really loves it.

 

One more thought: Your daughter could conceivably skip the physical science (especially if you choose Apologia) and go ahead and take Bio in 8th. I would just make sure that your state/desired university would accept that 8th grade credit.

 

One credit on the transcript must be biology. I'm not risking that. :lol: But, I don't think she needs advanced biology for civil engineering.

 

 

Thank you so much for the reply. My comments imbedded.

[8filltheheart]

I like to recommend a whole year of precalculus before calculus to my students. There's just SO much good math that you can fit into the precalculus year (especially for a future engineer or any STEM field). Most of it is just too valuable to miss! Take a look at the Table of Contents for the AoPS Algebra 3 and Precalculus course offerings for an idea of what I mean. My kids and I find these topics much more fascinating to study than calculus, which we find rather mechanical and routine. You might also enjoy reading this article about the "calculus trap" pertaining to highly able math students and also this one about the importance of discrete math, both written by Richard Rusczyk, the founder of AoPS.

 

Then, after that year of precalculus, I'd recommend that a math-talented student (and especially one planning a STEM major in college) study the Calculus BC curriculum. As others have said, there is no need for a separate year of Calculus AB in between precalculus and Calc BC. I think of the two levels of AP calculus as an either-or choice, and I think it looks kind of weak to do both AB and BC if she's planning to shoot for a competitive college. I know that a lot of schools have students complete both courses over two years, but I suspect they do it because they have nothing else to offer kids who've completed calculus.

 

:iagree: w/Kathy. I wouldn't have wanted our ds to have completed alg 2 and pre-cal in the same yr. He did complete alg 2 and AoPS alg 3 in the same yr (the AoPS alg 3 course started the beginning of Mar and went through Aug .....his choice.) He is really glad he spent an entire yr on AoPS pre-cal b/c he believes he wouldn't have had time to really dig into it w/the necessary amt of time if he had tried to do it in a shorter time period.

 

I also wanted to give a plug for AoPS cal class. Ds is taking it currently and should be well-prepared for the BC exam. (I guess we'll be able to tell more accurately after the exam. ;) )

 

I also agree w/previous poster who said there is no need for physical science. Also, for a STEM major, you might also want to keep options open on various alternative texts.

[Jane Elliot]

Just a brainstorm for you, in case you are in fact wanting to do two maths concurrently: Two of my dc (not the one who took the AP Physics & Calc) did Jacob's Geometry and Alg II concurrently. They had gotten a partway through geometry before starting Alg II, but did much of it concurrently. This worked out fairly well. It was a big time commitment, but other than that we didn't run into snags.

[regentrude]

I like to recommend a whole year of precalculus before calculus to my students. There's just SO much good math that you can fit into the precalculus year (especially for a future engineer or any STEM field). Most of it is just too valuable to miss! Take a look at the Table of Contents for the AoPS Algebra 3 and Precalculus course offerings for an idea of what I mean. .

 

But if the student were to take the AoPS precalculus class, he would be done in 20 weeks.

:confused:

I agree that one should not rush math and that there is a lot of cool precalc. But if even AoPS with all those topics (and more content than a typical pre-calc class) is done in barely half a year... what am I missing?

 

I am asking because we are precisely in this situation. DD is going to finish Intermediate Algebra in the next few weeks and will then start precalculus, and we were fully expecting her to finish by the end of the school year without undue hurry. Not doable?

 

ETA: For Chez J: what we did was start algebra 2 concurrently with geometry. So, while she finished the whole geometry (AoPS) in one school year, she also got a major head start on Intermediate algebra during this year which made it easy to finish up the book during this fall semester.

Edited November 11, 2011 by regentrude

[8filltheheart]

But if the student were to take the AoPS precalculus class, he would be done in 20 weeks.

:confused:

I agree that one should not rush math and that there is a lot of cool precalc. But if even AoPS with all those topics (and more content than a typical pre-calc class) is done in barely half a year... what am I missing?

 

I am asking because we are precisely in this situation. DD is going to finish Intermediate Algebra in the next few weeks and will then start precalculus, and we were fully expecting her to finish by the end of the school year without undue hurry. Not doable?

 

ETA: For Chez J: what we did was start algebra 2 concurrently with geometry. So, while she finished the whole geometry (AoPS) in one school year, she also got a major head start on Intermediate algebra during this year which made it easy to finish up the book during this fall semester.

 

 

Not Kathy, but ds took the entire yr to complete the pre-cal bk b/c he opted to not take the online class. He knew that he didn't have enough time to commit to working through the bk at that pace and get out of it what he wanted. He has stated that in hindsight he made the correct choice. He estimates that he spent 6-7 hrs/week working on math.

 

He is now taking the cal class online and it is requiring approx. 10 hrs/wk on homework in addition to the 2 hr class. (it is a 25 week class.) (However, soon his # of hrs is going to have to increase beyond that b/c the class does not address AP prep and he is going to have to do that on his own.)

 

It all boils down to how much time the student wants to devote to it and if the pace of the online class matches their needs at that pt.

[Jane Elliot]

ETA: For Chez J: what we did was start algebra 2 concurrently with geometry. So, while she finished the whole geometry (AoPS) in one school year, she also got a major head start on Intermediate algebra during this year which made it easy to finish up the book during this fall semester.

 

:iagree: This is a strategy that has worked well for us, too.

[regentrude]

Maybe I misread Regentrude's post, but I was reading her reply to me as proposing the alg II/ precalc concurrently.

 

Heavens no, of course not concurrently!!! That makes no sense. You have to take algebra 2 and pre-calculus consecutively.

But for a strong math student who does math in the summers, too, I can see that happening in one year.

[Chez J]

Heavens no, of course not concurrently!!! That makes no sense. You have to take algebra 2 and pre-calculus consecutively.

But for a strong math student who does math in the summers, too, I can see that happening in one year.

 

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I see what you propose better in the post above.

[regentrude]

Not Kathy, but ds took the entire yr to complete the pre-cal bk b/c he opted to not take the online class. He knew that he didn't have enough time to commit to working through the bk at that pace and get out of it what he wanted. He has stated that in hindsight he made the correct choice. He estimates that he spent 6-7 hrs/week working on math.

 

He is now taking the cal class online and it is requiring approx. 10 hrs/wk on homework in addition to the 2 hr class. (it is a 25 week class.) (However, soon his # of hrs is going to have to increase beyond that b/c the class does not address AP prep and he is going to have to do that on his own.)

 

It all boils down to how much time the student wants to devote to it and if the pace of the online class matches their needs at that pt.

 

Thanks, 8. When I suggested doubling on math, I was thinking of actually spending double time, not doing math faster. Over the past few weeks, DD has spent 10+hours per week on math because she is excited and motivated. I was thinking of a workload like this... which, of course, has to be the student's choice.

[Kathy in Richmond]

But if the student were to take the AoPS precalculus class, he would be done in 20 weeks.

:confused:

I agree that one should not rush math and that there is a lot of cool precalc. But if even AoPS with all those topics (and more content than a typical pre-calc class) is done in barely half a year... what am I missing?

 

I am asking because we are precisely in this situation. DD is going to finish Intermediate Algebra in the next few weeks and will then start precalculus, and we were fully expecting her to finish by the end of the school year without undue hurry. Not doable?

 

Two things:

 

(1)The AoPS online Precalculus class moves really fast, too fast for what I like to accomplish. I worked through the Precalc text alone with a highly gifted student last school year, taking time to do many of the challenge problems. We started in late September and worked through the end of May, if I remember correctly. Even so, we didn't do everything in the book (skipped the last couple of chapters). I admit that we had a lot of fun in Chs. 7 & 8, trigonometry and complex numbers & the geometry of complex numbers, and that took extra time. Sometimes even the discovery problems within the text would be old AIME problems (look at 7.4 if you have the book already for an example of this); these sections just took lots of time and thought to get through. If you try to get through a section such as 7.4 in a single day, you'll miss out on something good. The scope goes way beyond any other precalculus book out there. Totally worth it, though, for us. I think that learning how to spend a day or two knocking their brains against a really tough problem and finally conquering it was the main benefit my kids took away from their AoPS classes. And the precalculus text is one of their most challenging books.

 

(2) Traditionally, precalculus covers some topics in advanced algebra, also, and those topics are completely missing from the AoPS Precalculus text & course. That's what AoPS covers in its Intermediate Algebra text, though. So I'd recommend that kids using AoPS for precalculus also look at that text in addition to the Precalculus text. In the AoPS online school, that corresponds to their Algebra 3 course.

 

Your daughter will already have finished Intermediate Algebra already, though. Sure, she *could* finish up precalculus by the end of the school year if you want to get done. You can just adjust the time spent by doing the text sections and skipping enough of the Challengers to get through at the speed you choose. I think that you'd be missing something good, though. If I had my choice, I'd cut calculus short rather than precalculus (just look at the relative sizes of those two AoPS texts - 528 pp for precalc and 336 pp for calc - they've got it right:)). I'd rather puzzle over the complex transformations of the plane or linear transformations and how they're represented as matrices wrt different bases than learn yet another integration technique or do yet another contrived min-max problem. Calculus seems like two main ideas held together by a year's worth of tricks. If you really want to learn that sort of math, take a real analysis class instead. Just my two cents :D , but I think in retrospect that these are the decisions that served us well over the long haul.

 

ETA: For Chez J: what we did was start algebra 2 concurrently with geometry. So, while she finished the whole geometry (AoPS) in one school year, she also got a major head start on Intermediate algebra during this year which made it easy to finish up the book during this fall semester.

 

I'll add here that I agree with regentrude and Luann. If you want to double up in math, doing algebra 2 and geometry simultaneously makes sense.