Scout drama - and I thought cheerleaders were bad

[stansclan89]

From everything you've said, I think the biggest issue is a bad sm issue. I would be trying to get him training or trying to get someone else to take over.

 

The more I read about how he acts, the worse opinion I have of him. Of course your son has some growing to do also. But a leader that allows and encourages name calling (by being the example) and will not let your son make amends for what he did wrong or defend himself for what he didn't needs more training. And maybe a break from the position while he's working it out.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:iagree:, that is one of the reasons this situation is weird, frustrating, etc.

The leaders have called the boys names, the older scouts have called the boys names, it is a social-cognitive behavior.

 

One of the worst names I have heard is the leaders saying the boys are being -icks. Yes, that is the term that has been used.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons why they are trying to prevent your ds from appologizing for the name calling is that it would put the troop on record as saying that such name calling is inappropriate. If the leaders are in the habit of saying similar things, then they may not want this line drawn.

 

Sadly I've also been around some leaders who felt like they needed to use names like this (girl scouts is one that I heard from a cub scout leader and tried to stop) rather than letting their competence lead the way.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Just spoke to DS about why he wants to resign/leave.

 

If the committee decides to kick him out of scouts, he will never be allowed to Eagle.

If he resigns, he will be able to join a different troop in the future and earn his Eagle.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Perhaps one of the reasons why they are trying to prevent your ds from appologizing for the name calling is that it would put the troop on record as saying that such name calling is inappropriate. If the leaders are in the habit of saying similar things, then they may not want this line drawn.

 

Sadly I've also been around some leaders who felt like they needed to use names like this (girl scouts is one that I heard from a cub scout leader and tried to stop) rather than letting their competence lead the way.

 

Oh my, I hadn't thought of this.

[Parker Martin]

Just spoke to DS about why he wants to resign/leave.

 

If the committee decides to kick him out of scouts, he will never be allowed to Eagle.

If he resigns, he will be able to join a different troop in the future and earn his Eagle.

 

That makes sense. If the SM is bad, why not a different troop?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Just spoke to DS about why he wants to resign/leave.

 

If the committee decides to kick him out of scouts, he will never be allowed to Eagle.

If he resigns, he will be able to join a different troop in the future and earn his Eagle.

 

I can't remember enough of my leaders' manual to know if the above is true.

 

Does your troop have a commissioner? Totally aside from the actions your son takes from here on out, it sounds like this troop needs help. In a perfect world (which I realize isn't always the case), a unit commissioner would be able to help the troop over some of the issues you're seeing.

 

Before resigning, what does your ds want to have happen? Be allowed to speak to the other scout in front of the committee or PLC? Be allowed to appologize for name calling? Defend himself about the accusation of hitting? Write a letter of apology to the troop? I think he should figure this out and specifically request it (from the PLC or the Committee). In writing. And it should come from him, not from you.

 

If this is turned down, I would suggest that he transfer directly to another unit, rather than just resigning.

[YLVD]

I'm not sure how the Scouts are to blame here. Your son did something wrong...wrong enough that a parent complained. So now your son is going to receive discipline from the Scouts for behaving in a way not fitting to the organization (and, from your post, he admits as much). How is this drama or unfair?

 

Your son ought to be the bigger person. Apologize to the boy, the parents of the boy, and the scoutmaster. And then get on with being a better Scout. Quitting the organization seems like a cop-out to me.

 

:iagree:

[ravinlunachick]

It isn't that he is saying "Everyone else was doing it so I joined in." He was more like everyone does it and has done it for years, I don't see the big deal. I guess the vagueness of my OP didn't help.

 

DS called the boy a baby and a girl scout, names that everyone including the leaders have called boys for years. Actually, they have been called far worse, but that is another thread.

 

I find that sickening. I wasn't going to say anything when I thought it was just your ds's words, but the misogyny there really disturbs me. It is NOT okay to use girls/women as an insult. Why would parents put up with that from leaders?

[keptwoman]

I was telling my ds's about your situation and asking them if there was name calling from leaders in their troop. ds18 said "They call them girl scouts? The girls in the Venture crews are usually much tougher and better at scouting than the boys. :001_huh:"

 

:lol::lol:

Yes! Scouts is co-ed here, and for the most part the girls are definitely the better scouts.

 

From everything you've said, I think the biggest issue is a bad sm issue. I would be trying to get him training or trying to get someone else to take over.

 

The more I read about how he acts, the worse opinion I have of him. Of course your son has some growing to do also. But a leader that allows and encourages name calling (by being the example) and will not let your son make amends for what he did wrong or defend himself for what he didn't needs more training. And maybe a break from the position while he's working it out.

:iagree: As a Scout Leader I'm fairly disgusted by how he is handling things.

 

Just spoke to DS about why he wants to resign/leave.

 

If the committee decides to kick him out of scouts, he will never be allowed to Eagle.

If he resigns, he will be able to join a different troop in the future and earn his Eagle.

Makes perfect sense, and with a Scout Leader like that, a new troop is probably a great idea.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I find that sickening. I wasn't going to say anything when I thought it was just your ds's words, but the misogyny there really disturbs me. It is NOT okay to use girls/women as an insult. Why would parents put up with that from leaders?

 

This. While I know it is popular in certain circles to demean women who stand up against this sort of thing.....my gender is NOT an insult, thankyouverymuch! :glare:

[My3Monkeys]

I find that sickening. I wasn't going to say anything when I thought it was just your ds's words, but the misogyny there really disturbs me. It is NOT okay to use girls/women as an insult. Why would parents put up with that from leaders?

 

 

Thank you! I'm surprised that there weren't more posters who were upset about that.

[pageta]

I'm sorry, but women are not as strong as men, they do not run as fast as men, they are not as tall or as muscular as men. A woman is not a man. There are women who can carry heavier loads than SOME men, but you take an average man and average woman, the average man will carry a heavier load than a woman. So calling someone a "girl scout" because they can't carry a load up a hill without whining about it is not an insult to women. It's like telling someone they are a pickup because they cannot carry the load of a semi - it doesn't mean pickup trucks are bad - pickup trucks simply cannot do what a semi can do. That's all. It's not an insult to women to call someone who is whining a "girl scout." And while girl scouts may be tough, I doubt they run faster or carry heavier loads than the guys do. The two genders are equal but different. So getting your undies in a bundle over someone "using a girls/women as an insult" is about as productive as saying cars and pickups are equal when you need to haul your riding mower to the shop to be serviced. They are equal but different. Get over it.

 

It sounds to me like the situation is being handled poorly. Bullying is a big issue these days, so if you do something simple and someone decides to use it to make you look like a "bully," they can hurt your reputation and cause you grief. Unfortunately our society believes the victim and assumes guilt rather than checking out the facts and going on what is actually known. If it's one person's word against another without any witnesses, there isn't much you can do, technically. If someone is really a bully, they'll do it in front of other people and then it can be dealt with. But someone should not be kicked out of scouting because of what someone else - with no witnesses - accused him of. Multiple "victims" might be a different story, but that is not the case here.

 

I would make sure your son learned a lesson (people can be jerks, and life is not fair) but I wouldn't hesitate to let him do what he needed to do to join another group and finish up his Eagle. I'm sorry you have to go through this.

[bbmom]

This. While I know it is popular in certain circles to demean women who stand up against this sort of thing.....my gender is NOT an insult, thankyouverymuch! :glare:

 

This is what I was thinking too-I would never leave my son in a troop where the leaders teach it is OK to think of girls/women like this.

[bbmom]

I'm sorry, but women are not as strong as men, they do not run as fast as men, they are not as tall or as muscular as men. A woman is not a man. There are women who can carry heavier loads than SOME men, but you take an average man and average woman, the average man will carry a heavier load than a woman. So calling someone a "girl scout" because they can't carry a load up a hill without whining about it is not an insult to women. It's like telling someone they are a pickup because they cannot carry the load of a semi - it doesn't mean pickup trucks are bad - pickup trucks simply cannot do what a semi can do. That's all. It's not an insult to women to call someone who is whining a "girl scout." And while girl scouts may be tough, I doubt they run faster or carry heavier loads than the guys do. The two genders are equal but different. So getting your undies in a bundle over someone "using a girls/women as an insult" is about as productive as saying cars and pickups are equal when you need to haul your riding mower to the shop to be serviced. They are equal but different. Get over it.

.

 

Actually, this is an insult-I know plenty of girls who, while they might not have an easy time of lugging something heavy up the hill, they ask for help or do their best without whining or sitting down in the middle of the road and refusing to even try. Regardless, the issue here is not if it is inappropriate for a teenager to use this term as an insult, but whether is is OK for an ADULT. An adult leader calling someone a girl scout as an insult IS inappropriate, just as it would be inappropriate for me to tell a girl in a troop of girl scouts-"you are as dumb as a MAN sometimes."

[ravinlunachick]

I'm sorry, but women are not as strong as men, they do not run as fast as men, they are not as tall or as muscular as men. A woman is not a man. There are women who can carry heavier loads than SOME men, but you take an average man and average woman, the average man will carry a heavier load than a woman. So calling someone a "girl scout" because they can't carry a load up a hill without whining about it is not an insult to women. It's like telling someone they are a pickup because they cannot carry the load of a semi - it doesn't mean pickup trucks are bad - pickup trucks simply cannot do what a semi can do. That's all. It's not an insult to women to call someone who is whining a "girl scout." And while girl scouts may be tough, I doubt they run faster or carry heavier loads than the guys do. The two genders are equal but different. So getting your undies in a bundle over someone "using a girls/women as an insult" is about as productive as saying cars and pickups are equal when you need to haul your riding mower to the shop to be serviced. They are equal but different. Get over it.

 

 

 

Wow. That's a bit harsh.

 

I never said anything about women being physically equal to men. Calling a boy a "girl scout" because he is whining and complaining and not doing his share of the work is insulting. He didn't call the boy a WEAK scout, did he? He didn't say, "You are an inferior, whiny scout." No, he didn't have to, because the word "girl" subbed for those adjectives.

 

Just FTR, Girl Scouts absolutely do carry their own gear, and if they whine about it, they get told to buck up and be responsible. I doubt if anyone would say, "Stop being such a Boy Scout!"

[My3Monkeys]

I'm sorry, but women are not as strong as men, they do not run as fast as men, they are not as tall or as muscular as men. A woman is not a man. There are women who can carry heavier loads than SOME men, but you take an average man and average woman, the average man will carry a heavier load than a woman. So calling someone a "girl scout" because they can't carry a load up a hill without whining about it is not an insult to women. It's like telling someone they are a pickup because they cannot carry the load of a semi - it doesn't mean pickup trucks are bad - pickup trucks simply cannot do what a semi can do. That's all. It's not an insult to women to call someone who is whining a "girl scout." And while girl scouts may be tough, I doubt they run faster or carry heavier loads than the guys do. The two genders are equal but different. So getting your undies in a bundle over someone "using a girls/women as an insult" is about as productive as saying cars and pickups are equal when you need to haul your riding mower to the shop to be serviced. They are equal but different. Get over it.

 

 

 

If someone uses the term "girl scout" or "girl" as an insult, that implies that to be a girl scout or girl is something lesser. That IS insulting.

[ravinlunachick]

OP, I hope your son finds a way to continue along his Scouting path, with or without his current troop and SM. It would be a shame for someone who has invested so much of himself into this to feel like he has to give up now.

[kalanamak]

He didn't call the boy a WEAK scout, did he? He didn't say, "You are an inferior, whiny scout." No, he didn't have to, because the word "girl" subbed for those adjectives.

 

Just FTR, Girl Scouts absolutely do carry their own gear, and if they whine about it, they get told to buck up and be responsible. I doubt if anyone would say, "Stop being such a Boy Scout!"

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: "Good sports" and "team players" come in all sexes. So do the hearty, the plucky, and the brave.

[Kirch]

An adult should know better than that. That's inappropriate.

 

My take would be that calling a peer who is whining and not pulling his weight (given that what is required of him is reasonable) a baby is not terribly inappropriate. Impossible to know without tone and whatnot. There would be better ways to motivate or chastise him, but "baby" is fairly mild.

 

So I'm guessing that the real issue is over the hitting. The OP is in a better position than anyone to know whether or not her son is telling the truth. If he is, he should insist on being able to talk to his troop or write a letter to troop members calmly stating his case and ending with a bit about water under the bridge and all that.

 

The thing that sticks out to me is this: why is it automatically assumed (by the SM/leadership) that the OP's son is guilty *and he's being disciplined* when it's his word against the other boy's word? Especially if the other boy has already changed his story once? :confused:

 

It all sounds rather witch-hunty to me.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Kirch

[frankcassiesmom]

I've never been more thankful for our Christian homeschooling BSA troop as I am in this moment.

[DawnM]

:iagree: And ours is Christian and homeschool!

 

Dawn

 

I've never been more thankful for our Christian homeschooling BSA troop as I am in this moment.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Just an aside: re: "women can't run as fast as men"....listen to Christopher McDougall's TED Talk. In it he discusses the phenomenon in which men run faster than women in shorter races like marathons, but THE LONGER A WOMAN RUNS THE FASTER SHE GETS. As the race goes longer, women get FASTER. Amazing stuff.

 

Of course it is an insult to say that someone who is "displaying weakness or whining" is a girl. It is very similar to the way people still mis-use the word "retard/retarded" to mean "slow, simple, stupid". (And, yes, I get that there is a definition of retardation as in Intrauterine Growth Retardation. I am specifically referring to slurs here.)

[Jennifer3141]

This is what I was thinking too-I would never leave my son in a troop where the leaders teach it is OK to think of girls/women like this.

 

:iagree:

 

THANK YOU so much for saying this!!!

 

And this is why I've never really looked into BSA.

[ma23peas]

I am torn..

 

My son was the victim of name calling and pushing, being attacked...our scoutmasters responded by saying boys will be boys...I have had to fight to bring a higher level of accountability.

 

I am not hearing a lot of remorse or regret from your son...trying to diminish his own actions by saying it is nothing worse than others say is not the response I would want from a Scout. I am hearing a mom that is more concerned with how this affects her son's opportunities than focusing on the bullish behavior of her son first.

 

You need the whole story..my biggest concern is that your son is a life scout and did not know better how to represent the scout code...I am all for giving your son a chance to make it better, but he should 'make' it better...if he went to the district leader and showed remorse and came up with a plan to teach younger scouts about levels of bullying and how he took part in it and learned from it...that would serve so many...but the key is his ability to come clean and tell the whole story.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I am torn..

 

My son was the victim of name calling and pushing, being attacked...our scoutmasters responded by saying boys will be boys...I have had to fight to bring a higher level of accountability.

 

I am not hearing a lot of remorse or regret from your son...How can you? He isn't on hear discussing this..I am. You know nothing of his feelings. But if you like I will tell you that he has been ill all day knowing that someone believes he is bullying younger boys. Physically ill. This is not him or his personality. He has Tourette Syndrome and has been on the receiving end of bullying most of his life. He simply called a younger boy a couple of silly names, names that he has heard for years, names he has heard adults use. trying to diminish his own actions by saying it is nothing worse than others say is not the response I would want from a Scout. What would you have him do? We have had less than 24 hours to process this whole situation. He attempted to speak at the meeting last night and was denied the opportunity. I am hearing a mom that is more concerned with how this affects her son's opportunities than focusing on the bullish behavior of her son first. Wrong! I am concerned about my son's emotional well-being and the ability for him to be treated fairly. In this instance the victim's word is being heralded as gospel truth and my son has not had an opportunity to defend himself, speak to the accuser or address the allegations. I have addressed bullying with my son - thank you very much. Just because I have not posted our private conversations in this thread doesn't mean they didn't occur.

 

You need the whole story..my biggest concern is that your son is a life scout and did not know better how to represent the scout code...I am all for giving your son a chance to make it better, but he should 'make' it better...and how do you suggest he do that in 24 hours? He is 14 years old. He is doing what he can under the circumstances. if he went to the district leader and showed remorse and came up with a plan to teach younger scouts about levels of bullying and how he took part in it and learned from it...that would serve so many...but the key is his ability to come clean and tell the whole story. So you are working under the assumption that my son is the liar in this case and the other boy is telling the truth? The other boy who has already changed his story once and implicated two different boys? [/QUOTE]

 

I am sorry your son was bullied. I am assumning that your response is based on your ill feelings toward that situation because I cannot believe that you would make the assumption that my DS is a liar and a bully without having met him.

[Samiam]

Yes, I have and :iagree:. That's why I said in a previous post that I don't consider what DS did/said to be wrong.

 

Really!??! And see this is what I am not getting about this. You are repeatedly sugar-coating what your son has done.

You mentioned that "well, other boys did it too!"....apparently even bringing this up the SM, or whoever is in charge.

You mention how your son feels bad.

You mention that you do not think your son is a bully.

You mention how the other boy changed his story.

 

Did you mention how the other child must feel? Not only did his camping experience get ruined, now it is a long drawn out drama once he gets home. He has to look at these other boys every time they get together. Some of those boys will probably continue to be jerkish bullies. Did you mention how the parents of that child must feel?

 

 

For pete's sake, admit that your son did.not.act.like the Eagle scout he so wants to be. Eagle Scout means he has been in Scouts for several years right? He should KNOW that how he acted is not right. For that matter, scout or no scout, he should know what he did was not right.

 

Stop acting like your son is the victim. It was another child that was called names, treated like dirt, and possibly punched. It was the other child that had to go home and cry to his parents about how horrible his camp experience was. Hey, did you ever think that this other child might be considering quitting Scouts to avoid being treated badly and calling names and thus giving up his dream of becoming an Eagle Scout?!!?

 

Is your son the worst person in the world? No. He is a child who made a mistake. It happens to them all. That is how they learn to make a better choice next time. But for goodness sake, let him learn from it. Okay, so maybe he was not as fully involved or guilty as the victim is saying. But by your son's own admission, he did call names, was mean, and did follow along in group bully mentality. LET HIM LEARN A LESSON from this disheartening experience, and learn that you should NOT be a bully, even in a group. It is NEVER right. There is NEVER "well, I was just a little mean".

 

Mean is mean, own up to it. How in the WORLD could your son tell you that he did say mean things, he did join in a form of group bullying, and you KNOW a child was hurt in this situation (even just feelings being hurt) and YET you still say "I don't consider what DS did/said to be wrong". H.O.L.Y. Smokes!!!!!!!!!!

 

I don't think the Scout leaders (who I agree don't seem to be doing their duty very well either) are the only adults handling this situation wrong.

[Running the race]

What a tough situation. It sounds like things are happening very quickly. Maybe everyone involved just needs a short time to step back and process. I have had sons bullied in Scouts, but this situation seems like it has been blown way out of proportion.

 

From my experience, if your son is really a bully, most of the other scouts in the troop would also be able to attest to this fact. Bullying is not a one-time occurrence, but a recurring behavior. Usually it happens outside of earshot/sight of the adult leaders. The previous behavior and character of your scout should help demonstrate whether this accusation is likely to be true or not. If it is not likely to be true, he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

He certainly should be allowed to apologize for the name-calling. The troop should set a new standard in this area for leaders and scouts.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Really!??! And see this is what I am not getting about this. You are repeatedly sugar-coating what your son has done.

You mentioned that "well, other boys did it too!"....apparently even bringing this up the SM, or whoever is in charge.

You mention how your son feels bad.

You mention that you do not think your son is a bully.

You mention how the other boy changed his story.

 

Did you mention how the other child must feel? Not only did his camping experience get ruined, now it is a long drawn out drama once he gets home. He has to look at these other boys every time they get together. Some of those boys will probably continue to be jerkish bullies. Did you mention how the parents of that child must feel?

 

 

For pete's sake, admit that your son did.not.act.like the Eagle scout he so wants to be. Eagle Scout means he has been in Scouts for several years right? He should KNOW that how he acted is not right. For that matter, scout or no scout, he should know what he did was not right.

 

Stop acting like your son is the victim. It was another child that was called names, treated like dirt, and possibly punched. It was the other child that had to go home and cry to his parents about how horrible his camp experience was. Hey, did you ever think that this other child might be considering quitting Scouts to avoid being treated badly and calling names and thus giving up his dream of becoming an Eagle Scout?!!?

 

Is your son the worst person in the world? No. He is a child who made a mistake. It happens to them all. That is how they learn to make a better choice next time. But for goodness sake, let him learn from it. Okay, so maybe he was not as fully involved or guilty as the victim is saying. But by your son's own admission, he did call names, was mean, and did follow along in group bully mentality. LET HIM LEARN A LESSON from this disheartening experience, and learn that you should NOT be a bully, even in a group. It is NEVER right. There is NEVER "well, I was just a little mean".

 

Mean is mean, own up to it. How in the WORLD could your son tell you that he did say mean things, he did join in a form of group bullying, and you KNOW a child was hurt in this situation (even just feelings being hurt) and YET you still say "I don't consider what DS did/said to be wrong". H.O.L.Y. Smokes!!!!!!!!!!

 

I don't think the Scout leaders (who I agree don't seem to be doing their duty very well either) are the only adults handling this situation wrong.

 

Wow, thanks for making a judgement about me, my son, and my parenting skills. You do not know what I have said to my son, now do you? You do not know how I feel about this other boy, his mother or their part in this little scenario. I find it quite sad that you think I am taking this lightly, which I am not. It is a serious situation for all parties involved.

 

Do I think my son should be kicked out of scouts for it? No.

Do I think he should be singled out for behavior the entire troop partakes in? No.

Do I think this situation needs to be addressed? Yes. By all of the leaders and to all of the boys.

Are there problems with this troop? Yes. But my son should not be the scapegoat for bad leadership.

Am I going to share the punishment/discipline my husband and I have dispensed on to DS for all here to read? No. That is our private family business.

Why did I post this thread to begin with? To express my surprise/sadness/anger about a situation that is spiraling out of control and hopefully gain some new insight from people with different perspectives.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

He certainly should be allowed to apologize for the name-calling. The troop should set a new standard in this area for leaders and scouts.

 

Yes, he should. And yes, new standards need to be set for everyone.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

It sounds to me like the situation is being handled poorly. Bullying is a big issue these days, so if you do something simple and someone decides to use it to make you look like a "bully," they can hurt your reputation and cause you grief. Unfortunately our society believes the victim and assumes guilt rather than checking out the facts and going on what is actually known. If it's one person's word against another without any witnesses, there isn't much you can do, technically. If someone is really a bully, they'll do it in front of other people and then it can be dealt with. But someone should not be kicked out of scouting because of what someone else - with no witnesses - accused him of. Multiple "victims" might be a different story, but that is not the case here. Thank you for this sentiment.

 

I would make sure your son learned a lesson (people can be jerks, and life is not fair) but I wouldn't hesitate to let him do what he needed to do to join another group and finish up his Eagle. I'm sorry you have to go through this.

He is learning a lesson and I hope he will be stronger and better for having gone through this.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Just FTR, Girl Scouts absolutely do carry their own gear, and if they whine about it, they get told to buck up and be responsible. I doubt if anyone would say, "Stop being such a Boy Scout!"

 

Not to add fuel to the fire but telling a girl to buck up is quite ironic.

 

From the Free Dictionary (online) : Middle English bukke, from Old English buc, male deer, and bucca, male goat.]

 

You are, in essence, telling a girl to be more masculine.

 

:001_huh:

[ravinlunachick]

Not to add fuel to the fire but telling a girl to buck up is quite ironic.

 

From the Free Dictionary (online) : Middle English bukke, from Old English buc, male deer, and bucca, male goat.]

 

You are, in essence, telling a girl to be more masculine.

 

:001_huh:

 

LOL, I am well aware of what a buck is. One's head is sitting atop my bookshelf as I type.

 

I was editing myself a bit for this board. What I probably would say is, "Suck it up," as in suck up a big breath and keep going, but I thought perhaps the more conservative among us might misinterpret that.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

LOL, I am well aware of what a buck is. One's head is sitting atop my bookshelf as I type.

 

I was editing myself a bit for this board. What I probably would say is, "Suck it up," as in suck up a big breath and keep going, but I thought perhaps the more conservative among us might misinterpret that.

:D

[Elizabeth in MN]

So let me see if I understand this correctly... you've left your son in a troop where he is routinely called demeaning names, belittled, and all in all bullied. Then you get upset when he does the same thing? You've been telling him for years it's okay to be bullied, so he is going to turn around a be a bully.

 

A little boy was called names - rude, sexist, and demeaning names. You say that's fine because it happens all the time in to your son in his troop. Your say your son is upset because he would "never bully a younger scout" but then again he does own the fact that he called this little boy names.

 

WTF.

 

Word hurt more than fists. They do more damage, long and short term.

 

Own the fact your son made bad choices. He's fourteen and knew what he did was wrong, and he had no compassion for the little boy. Now he's paying the piper. It doesn't matter what other people did and said - they have their own issues to face. You are in charge of your son and he needs to know that what he did was wrong. He needs to make amends to the boy whom he damaged. How the heck would you feel if it was your son who had been demeaned? That other boy likely wants to leave scouts all because of the actions of your son. That's horrible.

[Samiam]

Am I going to share the punishment/discipline my husband and I have dispensed on to DS for all here to read? No. That is our private family business.

Why did I post this thread to begin with? To express my surprise/sadness/anger about a situation that is spiraling out of control and hopefully gain some new insight from people with different perspectives.

 

What? It's your private family busines? But yet, you posted it in a public forum. :confused:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

So let me see if I understand this correctly... you've left your son in a troop where he is routinely called demeaning names, belittled, and all in all bullied. Then you get upset when he does the same thing? You've been telling him for years it's okay to be bullied, so he is going to turn around a be a bully.

 

A little boy was called names - rude, sexist, and demeaning names. You say that's fine because it happens all the time in to your son in his troop. Your say your son is upset because he would "never bully a younger scout" but then again he does own the fact that he called this little boy names.

 

WTF.

 

Word hurt more than fists. They do more damage, long and short term.

 

Own the fact your son made bad choices. I have and so has he. He's fourteen and knew what he did was wrong, and he had no compassion for the little boy. Really? You don't know what went on in my son's head, do you? Now he's paying the piper. It doesn't matter what other people did and said - they have their own issues to face. You are in charge of your son and he needs to know that what he did was wrong. He does know. What makes you think he doesn't?? e needs to make amends to the boy whom he damaged. I know this. What makes you think he won't? How the heck would you feel if it was your son who had been demeaned? He has been and I now the feeling all too well. That other boy likely wants to leave scouts all because of the actions of your son. Why are you reading into this boy's feelings? A little projection going on? This kid is fine; not wanting to leave scouts; was at the meeting on Monday; laughing and having a good time.That's horrible. The situation is horrible for everyone.[/quote]

.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

What? It's your private family busines? But yet, you posted it in a public forum. :confused:

 

How we are choosing to discipline our son is our business. That is not up for debate here.

 

Yes, I did, and I wish I hadn't. I had no idea that so many people would respond with such vehemence without knowing all of the details. I don't know all of the details. It is a he-said/he-said situation at the moment. No witnesses. Yet so many are out for blood and making rash judgements about my son. What happened to compassion and empathy?

Edited August 3, 2011 by The Dragon Academy

[LittleIzumi]

How we are choosing to discipline our son is our business. That is not up for debate here.

 

Yes, I did, and I wish I hadn't. I had no idea that so many people would respond with such vehemence without knowing all of the details. I don't know all of the details. It is a he-said/he-said situation at the moment. No witnesses. Yet so many are out for blood and making rash judgements about my son. What happened to compassion and empathy?

 

:grouphug: I understand that you posted asking for advice & opinions, but we can only give advice based on what we are told. So as you chose not to detail here if/how your son was disciplined, people assume that you didn't discipline him. We only know what you tell us, and can only respond to that. To go any further we have to guess.

 

I do think you need to go above the SM (and possibly change troops anyway). With all the name calling being accepted & normal, by the leaders, including -icks?! No troop should be run that way, IMO. :ack2:

[Renee in NC]

:iagree: And ours is Christian and homeschool!

 

Dawn

 

My ds suffered a huge amount of bullying in our Christian, homeschool troop in FL and *still* has repercussions from it. That troop wouldn't allow my dh or I to be leaders because we couldn't/wouldn't sign the statement of faith, but allowed my ds to be ground down by continuous teasing and bullying (verbal and physical.) We didn't know how bad it had gotten until ds developed severe social anxiety issues.

 

Thankfully, his new troop (not specifically Christian and mostly ps kids) is working hard to get him comfortable in his own skin again.

[ma23peas]

I am torn..

 

My son was the victim of name calling and pushing, being attacked...our scoutmasters responded by saying boys will be boys...I have had to fight to bring a higher level of accountability.

 

I am not hearing a lot of remorse or regret from your son...How can you? He isn't on hear discussing this..I am. You know nothing of his feelings. But if you like I will tell you that he has been ill all day knowing that someone believes he is bullying younger boys. Physically ill. This is not him or his personality. He has Tourette Syndrome and has been on the receiving end of bullying most of his life. He simply called a younger boy a couple of silly names, names that he has heard for years, names he has

heard adults use.

Was he ill when he did it? Or just ill b/c he got caught? You said this happened at summer camp...I do not like that your choice of words "simply" called a younger boy a couple of silly names...that is you diminishing the severity of this...just because others say it and adults use it, that means that a life scout should use it? Isn't that what scouts is all about, rising above the fray?

 

trying to diminish his own actions by saying it is nothing worse than others say is not the response I would want from a Scout. What would you have him do? We have had less than 24 hours to process this whole situation. He attempted to speak at the meeting last night and was denied the opportunity.

Like I said, I would go above the scoutmaster and speak with the district representative...but I would go with a heart of accountability..explain your troop is not allowing you that opportunity and that you feel it is important for a scout to be trustworthy, kind, considerate....give him that chance to use what he's learned and help others. You've had less than 24 hours to process this but it happened weeks ago...I am basing my responses off of my experiences (majority from what I hear from other parents)...when the victim comes forward they are embarrassed and don't want to relive the humiliation..but once they know someone is going to listen, they then feel safe sharing it all...the scout who did the damage will soften their responsibility and usually only own up to it after several come forward and confirm the story...I've been there..it's human nature...but what I do not like is hearing you make your son out to be the victim and claiming he said a few silly words...silly words are 'goofball' 'jerk' ...but what your son said was mean and belittling esp. to a fellow scout who you are supposed to encourage and build up...and we're hearing your side of it...if the victim were able to share the story, there's probably more to this smoke.

 

I am hearing a mom that is more concerned with how this affects her son's opportunities than focusing on the bullish behavior of her son first. Wrong! I am concerned about my son's emotional well-being and the ability for him to be treated fairly. In this instance the victim's word is being heralded as gospel truth and my son has not had an opportunity to defend himself, speak to the accuser or address the allegations. I have addressed bullying with my son - thank you very much. Just because I have not posted our private conversations in this thread doesn't mean they didn't occur.

I get that you are looking out for your son, but your view of the victim is that he is getting preferential treatment...I'm sorry, but I think in these cases they should...until all sides have been heard...perhaps the scoutmasters did not feel you or our son were willing to accept responsibility but wanted to deny/diminish the event...going in with a heart of wanting to get to the truth is what everyone needs, even the victim...you wrote to ask for perspectives and mine is just one of them and not quite alone...

 

You need the whole story..my biggest concern is that your son is a life scout and did not know better how to represent the scout code...I am all for giving your son a chance to make it better, but he should 'make' it better...and how do you suggest he do that in 24 hours? He is 14 years old. He is doing what he can under the circumstances.

You never mentioned 24 hours, you said this happened at summer camp and last week they started talking about bullying...at that point, your son could have gone up and admitted that he had done something wrong...I think scoutmasters need to have a roundtable discussion and clarify for ALL the scouts what is unacceptable...it's good for them to share words/names each have been called and look at the code...does that fit the honor a scout should be embracing? And it's also a great time to focus on the behavior of scoutmasters, we all need grace but we need to be held accountable for our actions. I just see you being more of a momma bear trying to protect your cub than trying to help the victim's family, if it's a misunderstanding or overreaction be sensitive to that....but your responses to my post clearly show you are diminishing the act and that will have an effect on how your son takes the responsibility.

 

if he went to the district leader and showed remorse and came up with a plan to teach younger scouts about levels of bullying and how he took part in it and learned from it...that would serve so many...but the key is his ability to come clean and tell the whole story. So you are working under the assumption that my son is the liar in this case and the other boy is telling the truth? The other boy who has already changed his story once and implicated two different boys?

I am working under the assumption that your son has made it to Life Scout! If you need clarification...Scout spirit applies to how a Scout lives and conducts his 'daily' life. He shows Scout spirit by being a role model to his peers, living by the Scout Oath and Law. The concept of Scout spirit is not based on how many Scouting events or outings a Scout attends, but rather by how he helps bring out the best in others as a reflection of his own character and attitude in his 'daily' life....so at the very least, your son should take this seriously...accept that he failed the Scout spirit guidelines and DO something about it...Your son already admitted he did say those words, I'm not calling your son a liar....I'm just saying deal with what HE HAS done responsibly and with honesty.

[/QUOTE]

 

I am sorry your son was bullied. I am assumning that your response is based on your ill feelings toward that situation because I cannot believe that you would make the assumption that my DS is a liar and a bully without having met him.

My response is based on you not taking your son's actions as seriously as is needed...it's as if you're offended that he gets called out on his actions for speeding while driving when everyone else speeds and they didn't get a ticket...take ownership...stop minimizing it and hold your son up to the boy scout standards not the collective averaging of the lesser ones in the troop.

 

[DawnM]

That is awful.

 

I don't know what statement of faith it would make you sign, although ours does have a general faith in Jesus clause for leadership.

 

And by the way, our troop has a zero bullying tollerance. We had a bully and it was immediately taken care of.

 

Dawn

 

My ds suffered a huge amount of bullying in our Christian, homeschool troop in FL and *still* has repercussions from it. That troop wouldn't allow my dh or I to be leaders because we couldn't/wouldn't sign the statement of faith, but allowed my ds to be ground down by continuous teasing and bullying (verbal and physical.) We didn't know how bad it had gotten until ds developed severe social anxiety issues.

 

Thankfully, his new troop (not specifically Christian and mostly ps kids) is working hard to get him comfortable in his own skin again.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

Here's the timeline for you -

 

Summer camp incident happened on Tues. two weeks ago today.

Last Monday the Troop discussed bullying along the lines of hitting - no name calling was mentioned at that time; because DS is not a hitter we had no idea that DS was going to be involved - the boy who was initially accused of doing the hitting was not there; sometime after that meeting DS was named as the bully by the boy's mom.

This Monday DS and I were approached regarding the situation. DS immediately owned up to calling the kid a baby and a girl scout. He neither denied nor attempted to justify his behavior. He was/is surprised because these are names that leaders and boys have used nonchalantly for three years so he didn't think it was wrong. Is name calling right? No. Does it go against the Boy Scout oath and law? Possibly. Should DS be disciplined? Yes and he is. Does it justify kicking a boy out of scouts? No. If it does then all 15 boys should experience the same consequences.

 

You must keep in mind that two other boys were involved in this name calling incident. They both left and went back to camp. DS went back to the lagging scout and carried his supplies all the way back to camp.

 

After speaking with DS and the SM (who has spoken with the other scout and his mother)this is what we are able to determine -

 

4 boys were sent to pick up supplies from the commissary. On their return trip one scout was lagging and complaining about having to carry his cooler of supplies. The three boys in the lead were in a hurry to get back because they were hot and hungry and were saying things to the lagging boy to get him to be quiet and get moving. At some point the two other scouts just took off and told him he could deal with the rest of the boys for delaying the meal. DS stayed with the scout, following the BSA buddy rule.

 

What DS said - according to both DS and the other boy - was "Quit being such a baby. What are you, a girl scout?" then he picked up the cooler and carried it the rest of the way. DS could have been like the other boys (one of whom is also a Life Scout) and have left the kid standing on the path but he didn't.

 

We have a unique situation. DS acted unscoutlike by calling the kid a baby and then acted like a scout by aiding the boy and carrying his burden 3/4 of a mile back to the campsite in 90 degree weather with a heat index of over 100 degrees.

 

DS does not have a history of being the bully. Just the opposite.

The boy who was intially pointed out as the bully does have a history but he was conveniently absent the meeting after camp.

 

--

Am I being a mama bear? Yes, and I am not going to apologize for that. DS does not deserve to be kicked out of scouts for this.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

That is awful.

 

I don't know what statement of faith it would make you sign, although ours does have a general faith in Jesus clause for leadership.

 

And by the way, our troop has a zero bullying tollerance. We had a bully and it was immediately taken care of.

 

Dawn

 

Can you share what the incidence was and what discipline was given?

[unsinkable]

Here's the situation - during summer camp DS's troop cooks at the camp site, most other troops go eat in the dining hall. Before every meal boys from the troop must go to the commissary to get that meal's supplies. On one occassion it was DS, another older scout and two first years. Each scout was carrying supplies but one of the first years was lagging way behind and slowing down the rest of the boys. This boy was whining about having to help carry the supplies and kept setting his stuff on the ground. The other boys wanted to get back to camp and I guess some name calling occurred. DS was so frustrated at the kid's whining and complaining that he went back, picked up the other boy's supplies and carried all the way back to camp.

 

DS admits to calling him a baby and a girl scout. Names that all of the scouts have been called and have called each other, including some of the leaders.

 

The boy is now telling his parents that DS hit him and pushed him down. There are no witnesses to support either boy since the other two were ahead of DS and the 4th boy.

 

This supposedly happened on Tues. The kid didn't make the allegations until after he returned home from camp on Fri. night and he initially named another boy, not DS. That boy was not at the meeting last Monday but DS was. It was then that this kid pointed out DS and switched his story.

 

 

In my opinion, from what I know about boys in general and our troop specifically, nothing DS said was out of line.

 

As for DS's reaction to the decision last night - he asked for a chance to stand before the troop and make a statement which would include an apology. He met with the SM to go over what he wanted to say. He was denied with the reason being "It wouldn't do any good and wouldn't serve anyone." Nor is DS allowed to address the complainant, his family or the committee.

 

 

Here's the timeline for you -

 

Summer camp incident happened on Tues. two weeks ago today.

Last Monday the Troop discussed bullying along the lines of hitting - no name calling was mentioned at that time; because DS is not a hitter we had no idea that DS was going to be involved - the boy who was initially accused of doing the hitting was not there; sometime after that meeting DS was named as the bully by the boy's mom.

This Monday DS and I were approached regarding the situation. DS immediately owned up to calling the kid a baby and a girl scout. He neither denied nor attempted to justify his behavior. He was/is surprised because these are names that leaders and boys have used nonchalantly for three years so he didn't think it was wrong. Is name calling right? No. Does it go against the Boy Scout oath and law? Possibly. Should DS be disciplined? Yes and he is. Does it justify kicking a boy out of scouts? No. If it does then all 15 boys should experience the same consequences.

 

You must keep in mind that two other boys were involved in this name calling incident. They both left and went back to camp. DS went back to the lagging scout and carried his supplies all the way back to camp.

 

After speaking with DS and the SM (who has spoken with the other scout and his mother)this is what we are able to determine -

 

4 boys were sent to pick up supplies from the commissary. On their return trip one scout was lagging and complaining about having to carry his cooler of supplies. The three boys in the lead were in a hurry to get back because they were hot and hungry and were saying things to the lagging boy to get him to be quiet and get moving. At some point the two other scouts just took off and told him he could deal with the rest of the boys for delaying the meal. DS stayed with the scout, following the BSA buddy rule.

 

What DS said - according to both DS and the other boy - was "Quit being such a baby. What are you, a girl scout?" then he picked up the cooler and carried it the rest of the way. DS could have been like the other boys (one of whom is also a Life Scout) and have left the kid standing on the path but he didn't.

 

We have a unique situation. DS acted unscoutlike by calling the kid a baby and then acted like a scout by aiding the boy and carrying his burden 3/4 of a mile back to the campsite in 90 degree weather with a heat index of over 100 degrees.

DS does not have a history of being the bully. Just the opposite.

The boy who was intially pointed out as the bully does have a history but he was conveniently absent the meeting after camp.

 

--

Am I being a mama bear? Yes, and I am not going to apologize for that. DS does not deserve to be kicked out of scouts for this.

 

This is the problem with these type of threads. Things are written by the OP and give one impression. Posters react to the first impression. The OP then posts some more and the tone changes.

 

To me, the 2 parts I highlighted paint vastly different pictures.

 

So which one do I respond to?

 

The first one in which the OP's DS acted out of frustration or the next one in which the OP's DS acted scoutlike?

 

:confused:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

This is the problem with these type of threads. Things are written by the OP and give one impression. Posters react to the first impression. The OP then posts some more and the tone changes.

 

To me, the 2 parts I highlighted paint vastly different pictures.

 

So which one do I respond to?

 

The first one in which the OP's DS acted out of frustration or the next one in which the OP's DS acted scoutlike?

 

:confused:

I don't see them as being mutually exclusive. DS did go help him because he was frustrated. He wanted to get back to camp. But he did it, isn't that being scoutlike? He could have left him there like the other boys did. He could have continued to watch the boy struggle and complain. Why does DS's motivation come in to play? Whether or not he helped with a joyful giving spirit isn't the point (at least I don't think it is). How often do we help people because it is easier or would benefit us in the long run?

 

The second bolded statement is my new interpretation of the event after having read the posts about DS acting unscoutlike. It does not and cannot represent DS's state of mind at the time.

Edited August 3, 2011 by The Dragon Academy

[calandalsmom]

Obviously the boy in the OP is a decent kid who made a bad choice. That's how most kids are.

 

Those who think name calling is soem sort of unusual activity among kids just bc its distasteful are delusional, really.

 

There is no reason he should be made to leave scouts for this, that's for sure.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Obviously the boy in the OP is a decent kid who made a bad choice. That's how most kids are.

 

Those who think name calling is soem sort of unusual activity among kids just bc its distasteful are delusional, really.

 

There is no reason he should be made to leave scouts for this, that's for sure.

 

Thank you for this sentiment.

[ma23peas]

 

Is name calling right? No. Does it go against the Boy Scout oath and law? Possibly. Should DS be disciplined? Yes and he is.

 

I can completely understand your perspective with the added details...but I'm still alarmed that you choose the word "possibly" as it going against the Scout oath and law...it most definitely is...it's either within the scout spirit or it's not..there is no possibly about it. Do you want your son to possibly live up to the oath or definitely live up to the oath.

 

The discussion was on hitting, you have already stated that the mother of the victim accused your son of hitting...you have a right to know if this occurred and I would stop at nothing to clarify it with all parties present..seeing them face to face would clearly let each one know who is fudging the truth. That is why I said to go to the district rep..that is what they are there for....he can instruct the scoutmasters to have a meeting with all families...but do not go into it explaining your son's actions away by saying they all do it...well, they all shouldn't do it...and neither should your son...

 

I see this as a wonderful learning experience for the whole troop....not a spotlight on just your son or the victim....by hashing this out and keeping the scout oath first and foremost, other children will be inspired to hold that higher standard....it could also do wonders for some of these scoutmasters...but it must come from a heart of wanting the best for everyone...not just each one out for their own agenda.

[unsinkable]

I don't see them as being mutually exclusive. DS did go help him because he was frustrated. He wanted to get back to camp. But he did it, isn't that being scoutlike? He could have left him there like the other boys did. He could have continued to watch the boy struggle and complain. Why does DS's motivation come in to play? Whether or not he helped with a joyful giving spirit isn't the point (at least I don't think it is). How often do we help people because it is easier or would benefit us in the long run?

 

The second bolded statement is my new interpretation of the event after having read the posts about DS acting unscoutlike. It does not and cannot represent DS's state of mind at the time.

 

Is this just a general discussion about helpfulness? Because if it is, then I'd say this:

 

Please don't help me out of your own frustration, call me names and then pat yourself on the back when you are done.

 

But since it is about your son, I'm going to wish you a good day, good luck and God bless.

 

ETA: I hope this works out for everyone involved. I hope everyone stays in Scouts, grows, learns and becomes a better man.

Edited August 3, 2011 by unsinkable

[lauranc]

I've been following this thread because I have a vague interest in bullying and why kids do it.

 

It seems to me that your son, by calling another, younger boy, a 'baby' and a 'girl scout' has shown a lack of empathy and reacted to his own frustration in an immature way. You are minimizing what he said (and not expecting enough of him) by holding him to the standards of 'everyone else...' even, as you said 'the scoutmaster'. If all the boys, including the scoutmaster say things like this, I think they are all acting in a shameful way.

 

Just because this is the way the boys are encouraged or allowed to speak to one another does not make it right. I doubt that you have discouraged this behavior in him since you have said things like 'he simply said'; and even the title of your post sent up a red flag --insinuating that cheerleaders (ie. girls) are the ones who cause drama. I wouldn't be defending my son, and holding him to the low standards of the other boys. It appears you think it's normal and therefor... a boys will be boys mentality comes through in your posts.

 

Unless there was already a no tolerance for bullying policy in place, it seems odd for them to single your son out. I don't think he should have to leave the troop over this. I'd be working on attitude though--- if he was my son.