Scout drama - and I thought cheerleaders were bad

[Granny_Weatherwax]

DS is quitting scouts. He is going to finish up his remaining 2 merit badges and possibly attempt an Eagle project and then he says he's done. He wants to be out in the next couple of months.

 

Evidently there was some bullying going on at summer camp - I knew some of the story because one of the mothers posted about it on Facebook - and DS has been singled out as the instigator. Last week, during the regular meeting, the leaders had a short discussion with the boys about bullying and said that the complaints that were made were strong enough to have the boy kicked out of scouts. At that time another scout was being named as the perpetrator and no one said anything to me about DS. Evidently this week boys are coming forward and implicating DS.

 

DS admits to saying things that would be considered mean but that nothing he said was anything different than what the other boys were saying and that he was going along with the group.

 

The Scoutmaster wanted to discuss the allegations and talk about DS's behavior. During the discussion I brought up the OA issues and behavioral examples of other scouts. The SM agreed that there are problems with other boys but since no one has complained about them there is nothing he can do. Since there is a parent complaining about DS disciplinary action will be taken.

 

DS says he can't take it any more and wants to quit. He would leave now but I have convinced him to hold on and to try to finish his Eagle. We are registered for a Scouting event this weekend and DS is supposed to complete 3 merit badges. I hope he can find it in himself to go and have a good time. None of the other scouts in his troop wanted to go to this event - they never go to scouting events outside of the troop - and I am hoping DS will find something to keep him motivated.

 

This whole situation breaks my heart. DS loves scouts and has focused much of the last two years on becoming a good/great scout.

 

ETA: during our conversation the SM said that of the four boys who crossed over 3 years ago DS is by far the best scout, has the strongest leadership ability and has the potential to do the best and go the farthest in scouting. He said if he had to rank the boys in the troop based on scouting ability DS would be No. 2.

 

ETA: I was in a hurry when I wrote the OP so I will add this here (it's in a post later on) - DS requested a chance to address the troop last night after he learned of the accusations and the discplinary action. He spoke to the SM and told him what he wanted to say. The SM denied him the opportunity saying it wouldn' do any good. DS is also not allowed to speak to the boy making the accusation, the boy's family or the committee.

 

What are the accusations? Initially, name calling. He called a younger scout a baby and a girl scout; DS admits to this. The boy has since changed his story and is now saying DS hit him and pushed him down; this after the boy initally accussed of hitting was not at last week's meeting.

 

ETA: DH and I are disciplining DS with situation appropriate consequences. DS is learning a lesson, believe me. We are not taking this situation lightly.

Edited August 3, 2011 by The Dragon Academy

[unsinkable]

Taking my original answer out b/c I didn't read the original post closely enough.

Edited August 2, 2011 by unsinkable

[posybuddy]

I'm so sorry. What a hard thing for your son to have to be dealing with, especially if he enjoys and is committed to scouts. Is transferring to another troop an option, or not?

 

I was telling my dh and boys about your OA/Summer Camp experience, and they just shook their heads. It made them appreciate their troop, where those sorts of behaviors and attitudes are just not tolerated.

 

:grouphug: for you and your son. Hopefully there's a better resolution for him so he doesn't end up quitting scouting - but if he does, it's not the end of the world. There are plenty of terrific men who were never Boy Scouts.

[Samiam]

DS admits to saying things that would be considered mean but that nothing he said was anything different than what the other boys were saying and that he was going along with the group.

 

 

 

 

Ummmm, so your DS admits to being a bully, right? I mean, in his eyes, he doesn't consider it to be mean enough, only just as mean as other were, but in the end, isn't is it the victim's point of view that matters? Doesn't the victim get to decide what "mean" is? Somewhere else in your Boy Scout pack is a a child, someone's son, who is home telling his family about his miserable experience at camp, about how he was bullied by his own Pack members. Wouldn't you, as the mother of that child, feel that it should be brought to the attention of the Scout leaders??

 

I don't see the drama here, at least on the Boy Scouts side. Your DS admits to being mean, is getting called on it, and is now put out about it?

 

Maybe I am missing the back side of the story, but from just this post alone, it sounds like perhaps your son is learning a valuable life lesson. 1. Don't be mean, even a "little mean" still hurts. and 2. Don't go along with what others are doing especially if you KNOW it is mean.

[DawnM]

:iagree:

 

We had a bully in our HOMESCHOOL scout troop. He was told he could remain in the troop if he went through the disciplinary measures required. He and his family refused, so he is gone.

 

If your son admits what he did and takes ownership of it NO MATTER WHAT OTHERS DO, it will stand him in good stead for life.

 

We can't control what others do, but we can control our own actions.

 

I think your son can still love scouts again.

 

Dawn

 

Ummmm, so your DS admits to being a bully, right? I mean, in his eyes, he doesn't consider it to be mean enough, only just as mean as other were, but in the end, isn't is it the victim's point of view that matters? Doesn't the victim get to decide what "mean" is? Somewhere else in your Boy Scout pack is a a child, someone's son, who is home telling his family about his miserable experience at camp, about how he was bullied by his own Pack members. Wouldn't you, as the mother of that child, feel that it should be brought to the attention of the Scout leaders??

 

I don't see the drama here, at least on the Boy Scouts side. Your DS admits to being mean, is getting called on it, and is now put out about it?

 

Maybe I am missing the back side of the story, but from just this post alone, it sounds like perhaps your son is learning a valuable life lesson. 1. Don't be mean, even a "little mean" still hurts. and 2. Don't go along with what others are doing especially if you KNOW it is mean.

[MHowell]

Ummmm, so your DS admits to being a bully, right? I mean, in his eyes, he doesn't consider it to be mean enough, only just as mean as other were, but in the end, isn't is it the victim's point of view that matters? Doesn't the victim get to decide what "mean" is? Somewhere else in your Boy Scout pack is a a child, someone's son, who is home telling his family about his miserable experience at camp, about how he was bullied by his own Pack members. Wouldn't you, as the mother of that child, feel that it should be brought to the attention of the Scout leaders??

 

I don't see the drama here, at least on the Boy Scouts side. Your DS admits to being mean, is getting called on it, and is now put out about it?

 

Maybe I am missing the back side of the story, but from just this post alone, it sounds like perhaps your son is learning a valuable life lesson. 1. Don't be mean, even a "little mean" still hurts. and 2. Don't go along with what others are doing especially if you KNOW it is mean.

 

:iagree: And surprisingly, after 3 years of cheer (2 of which I coached), we haven't had ANY bullying issues come up....... Just general not age appropriate drama. :001_rolleyes:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Evidently there was some bullying going on at summer camp - I knew some of the story because one of the mothers posted about it on Facebook - and DS has been singled out as the instigator. Last week, during the regular meeting, the leaders had a short discussion with the boys about bullying and said that the complaints that were made were strong enough to have the boy kicked out of scouts. At that time another scout was being named as the perpetrator and no one said anything to me about DS. Evidently this week boys are coming forward and implicating DS.

 

DS admits to saying things that would be considered mean but that nothing he said was anything different than what the other boys were saying and that he was going along with the group.

 

The Scoutmaster wanted to discuss the allegations and talk about DS's behavior. During the discussion I brought up the OA issues and behavioral examples of other scouts. The SM agreed that there are problems with other boys but since no one has complained about them there is nothing he can do. Since there is a parent complaining about DS disciplinary action will be taken.

 

 

 

I vaguely remember a thread about a scout camping trip, so I'm not real clear on what the OA thing was, but your son admitted to bullying a kid or kids. He said he was 'going along with the group'. All other issues aside......(OA thing and the fact that there were formerly complaints about other boys.) could it be that your son feels remorse about his role in this and just wants to avoid the whole situation? Has he apologized to the boy or boys who were bullied?

 

Even if other boys were involved, to fully OWN his own behaviour and apologize for it would probably be therapeutic.

[Ria]

I'm not sure how the Scouts are to blame here. Your son did something wrong...wrong enough that a parent complained. So now your son is going to receive discipline from the Scouts for behaving in a way not fitting to the organization (and, from your post, he admits as much). How is this drama or unfair?

 

Your son ought to be the bigger person. Apologize to the boy, the parents of the boy, and the scoutmaster. And then get on with being a better Scout. Quitting the organization seems like a cop-out to me.

[Anne in CA]

If I had it to do over again I wouldn't involve my son in scouts, so I feel your pain. My son is also a good scout, loves scouting, but there are many boys in the troop who are just plain in the troop to avoid other social situations or sports or things that would make them "work". They use scouts as a way to have an activity that doesn't require much of them, and their parents let them get away with it. My son is always held to a different standard also, and I also am tired of it. I wish we lived close and we could start our own Venture Crew and move on. My son loves volunteering at cub scout day camp and he has made wonderful friends that way. Maybe your son could stay involved in scouting and do something like that next summer.

[5KidzRUs]

I'm not sure how the Scouts are to blame here. Your son did something wrong...wrong enough that a parent complained. So now your son is going to receive discipline from the Scouts for behaving in a way not fitting to the organization (and, from your post, he admits as much). How is this drama or unfair?

 

Your son ought to be the bigger person. Apologize to the boy, the parents of the boy, and the scoutmaster. And then get on with being a better Scout. Quitting the organization seems like a cop-out to me.

 

:iagree:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The Scoutmaster wanted to discuss the allegations and talk about DS's behavior. During the discussion I brought up the OA issues and behavioral examples of other scouts. The SM agreed that there are problems with other boys but since no one has complained about them there is nothing he can do. Since there is a parent complaining about DS disciplinary action will be taken.

 

 

 

 

I feel your pain. Something came up with my son at a camp. I'm not ready to label him as a bully. But I do think that he has to learn what behavior and words are appropriate and which aren't. Being corrected by adults at camp, apologizing the the other person, working on tasks with the other person in a polite and friendly way and also having to discuss it with me have all been part of that learning process. And it is forcing me to take a good look at my kid (whom I love) and make sure that I am very specific with him about what is and is not acceptable behavior. I've also had to have conversations with him about steering clear of some of the other scouts (who either are poor examples or who will start a lot of rough housing and wrestling and then complain that it was rough).

 

On the other hand, I find it troubling that an adult would think that there have to be complaints from other scouts or their parents to step in and say that this or that behavior is not ok. If the SM sees actions that do not exemplify the scout law, then it is his responsibility to step in and correct those scouts. Same with an ASM, Committee Member, Scouting Alumni, Merit Badge Counselor, etc.

 

Only correcting scouts when someone else complains sets up a situation where it isn't the behavior that is inappropriate, but only the behavior when it is complained about.

 

I imagine this is what is frustrating the OP's son. Not that he is being taken to task for his behavior at camp, but that other poor behavior seems to be ignored, even when the adults know it is happening.

 

I would encourage your ds to do the right thing, regardless of what other scouts are called out on. But I would also encourage the SM to step in to correct behavior, regardless of which parents are complaining.

[posybuddy]

It's the different standards for different boys, and the SM's mixed messages, that strike me as a red flag. It didn't sound like the OP's son was disputing that he behaved inappropriately. The SM and ASMs could be using this as a teachable moment for all the boys involved (more than one brief discussion during a troop meeting) but instead it sounded like one boy was being singled out as a fall guy. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but if it's the case it's not a troop I'd want my sons to be involved with.

[Lisa R.]

 

 

I imagine this is what is frustrating the OP's son. Not that he is being taken to task for his behavior at camp, but that other poor behavior seems to be ignored, even when the adults know it is happening.

 

I would encourage your ds to do the right thing, regardless of what other scouts are called out on. But I would also encourage the SM to step in to correct behavior, regardless of which parents are complaining.

 

I completely agree.

 

Also it is frustrating that there weren't objective adults around to view this situation. It's just taking the words of the kids involved and piecing the situation together.

 

Really, though, we're not responsible for the behavior of the other bad kids. I'd address the behavior in your ds and be thankful that you have this opportunity for character development. It's a good example for your ds to see that he needs to do the right thing even if people around him aren't. I'd be careful not to give ds sympathy here. Being even a little bit mean is not a good thing and dealing swiftly with this could cause him to think twice in the future.

[A.J. at J.A.]

Ummmm, so your DS admits to being a bully, right? I mean, in his eyes, he doesn't consider it to be mean enough, only just as mean as other were, but in the end, isn't is it the victim's point of view that matters? Doesn't the victim get to decide what "mean" is? Somewhere else in your Boy Scout pack is a a child, someone's son, who is home telling his family about his miserable experience at camp, about how he was bullied by his own Pack members. Wouldn't you, as the mother of that child, feel that it should be brought to the attention of the Scout leaders??

 

I don't see the drama here, at least on the Boy Scouts side. Your DS admits to being mean, is getting called on it, and is now put out about it?

 

Maybe I am missing the back side of the story, but from just this post alone, it sounds like perhaps your son is learning a valuable life lesson. 1. Don't be mean, even a "little mean" still hurts. and 2. Don't go along with what others are doing especially if you KNOW it is mean.

 

I do have to say that I agree with this completely. A little mean and/or joining the crowd, is still not acceptable. A troop is a community/family and everyone should always be treated with respect. My boys are not perfect by any means - but I would hope that ultimately their training would lead them to stand up for the boy being picked on in such a situation instead of joining the crowd. I would have them accept any appropriate disciplinary action against them in hopes of that training taking affect irregardless of how others are or are not being disciplined.

 

:iagree:

 

Blessings,

Angela

Edited August 2, 2011 by A.J. at J.A.

[ciyates]

Just because the boy feels he has been bullied doesn't mean he has. If he was truly bullied wouldn't have have named all the boys involved?

 

I went to parent day this summer and watched an instructor take a firm hand with a young man (15-16). The boy didn't want to partake in capsizing the canoe. That is apart of the canoeing merit badge! The instructor finally told him if he didn't want to do it then he was out of the class and to go back to camp. Was his voice gruff? Yes it was. However in my opinion the young man deserved it. I could tell the young man was embarrassed. I followed him back to the office and listened to him complain to the camp director. He greatly exaggerated the situation and in one point outright lied. After he left I stepped in and told the director I had saw everything and it didn't happen like that. The MB counselor was removed from the course and camp because of bullying.

 

Her son isn't denying what he did, she is just upset (as any mom would be) that her son is being singled out.

[A.J. at J.A.]

Just because the boy feels he has been bullied doesn't mean he has. If he was truly bullied wouldn't have have named all the boys involved?

 

Her son isn't denying what he did, she is just upset (as any mom would be) that her son is being singled out.

 

Yes, except he admits to being part of a group that was behaving "mean". He has done something wrong - admits to it - and is being disciplined. This is life - and it happens this way sometimes. If 5 different people are speeding and only one ends up getting a ticket - does that person have the right to complain? They were caught doing wrong and penalized - it doesn't really matter ultimately, particularly for character building, if the others get penalized or not.

[clarkacademy]

Just because the boy feels he has been bullied doesn't mean he has. If he was truly bullied wouldn't have have named all the boys involved?

 

I went to parent day this summer and watched an instructor take a firm hand with a young man (15-16). The boy didn't want to partake in capsizing the canoe. That is apart of the canoeing merit badge! The instructor finally told him if he didn't want to do it then he was out of the class and to go back to camp. Was his voice gruff? Yes it was. However in my opinion the young man deserved it. I could tell the young man was embarrassed. I followed him back to the office and listened to him complain to the camp director. He greatly exaggerated the situation and in one point outright lied. After he left I stepped in and told the director I had saw everything and it didn't happen like that. The MB counselor was removed from the course and camp because of bullying.

 

Her son isn't denying what he did, she is just upset (as any mom would be) that her son is being singled out.

 

 

Is it possible from the victims point of view it was her son that had done the worse as far as bullying goes? No matter what spin you put on it really doesn't matter. You can't blame "following the leader" your whole life. If my kid does something I don't care what they other kids did, it is not my problem. I raised my kid to do better. From the time mine were very small that has not worked in my house. I would never bring it up even if my child got in trouble, it kind of looks like a cop out. Little Jonny was doing it too etc. It doesn't matter. Persnal responsibility. If this was the behavior from my child he would most likely not go back to scouts because I would feel like he is not ready to be his own person.

[ciyates]

Is it possible from the victims point of view it was her son that had done the worse as far as bullying goes? Sure it is possible however whenever my son has been in any kind of situation like this I have always asked who was around, what were they doing etc... Maybe the young man is only saying her son did it and if so that is fine, however it seems a little odd that if other boys were involved he isn't naming them and the SM knows there is an issue with other boys and is not doing anything because a parent hasn't complained. No matter what spin you put on it really doesn't matter. You can't blame "following the leader" your whole life. If my kid does something I don't care what they other kids did, it is not my problem. I raised my kid to do better. From the time mine were very small that has not worked in my house. I would never bring it up even if my child got in trouble, it kind of looks like a cop out. Little Jonny was doing it too etc. It doesn't matter. Persnal responsibility. If this was the behavior from my child he would most likely not go back to scouts because I would feel like he is not ready to be his own person.

Again Dragon isn't suggesting he son didn't do anything wrong. She isn't suggesting he escapes punishment.

 

I have a class at our co-op. If the boys are misbehaving and I only correct one I am in the wrong, it is my job to make the class a good environment for everyone. SM take on the responsibility of helping all the boys grow and correcting all of their behaviors to the best of his ability. They are not supposed to wait until a parent complains. As SM he owes it to the troop to stop everyone from bullying not just Dragon's son.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Here's the situation - during summer camp DS's troop cooks at the camp site, most other troops go eat in the dining hall. Before every meal boys from the troop must go to the commissary to get that meal's supplies. On one occassion it was DS, another older scout and two first years. Each scout was carrying supplies but one of the first years was lagging way behind and slowing down the rest of the boys. This boy was whining about having to help carry the supplies and kept setting his stuff on the ground. The other boys wanted to get back to camp and I guess some name calling occurred. DS was so frustrated at the kid's whining and complaining that he went back, picked up the other boy's supplies and carried all the way back to camp.

 

DS admits to calling him a baby and a girl scout. Names that all of the scouts have been called and have called each other, including some of the leaders.

 

The boy is now telling his parents that DS hit him and pushed him down. There are no witnesses to support either boy since the other two were ahead of DS and the 4th boy.

 

This supposedly happened on Tues. The kid didn't make the allegations until after he returned home from camp on Fri. night and he initially named another boy, not DS. That boy was not at the meeting last Monday but DS was. It was then that this kid pointed out DS and switched his story.

 

 

In my opinion, from what I know about boys in general and our troop specifically, nothing DS said was out of line.

 

As for DS's reaction to the decision last night - he asked for a chance to stand before the troop and make a statement which would include an apology. He met with the SM to go over what he wanted to say. He was denied with the reason being "It wouldn't do any good and wouldn't serve anyone." Nor is DS allowed to address the complainant, his family or the committee.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Ummmm, so your DS admits to being a bully, right?

 

No, he does not. He admits to calling the boy a couple of names that each of the scouts in the troop have been called numerous times over the years, a baby and a girl scout.

[UnsinkableKristen]

As for DS's reaction to the decision last night - he asked for a chance to stand before the troop and make a statement which would include an apology. He met with the SM to go over what he wanted to say. He was denied with the reason being "It wouldn't do any good and wouldn't serve anyone." Nor is DS allowed to address the complainant, his family or the committee.

 

That doesn't seem fair at all.

[A.J. at J.A.]

In my opinion, from what I know about boys in general and our troop specifically, nothing DS said was out of line.

 

 

That's really a sad atmosphere and I'm sorry that your son is exposed to that in the first place.

 

As for DS's reaction to the decision last night - he asked for a chance to stand before the troop and make a statement which would include an apology. He met with the SM to go over what he wanted to say. He was denied with the reason being "It wouldn't do any good and wouldn't serve anyone." Nor is DS allowed to address the complainant, his family or the committee.

 

That would definitely have me frustrated! I can see your frustration...DS is trying to do what is right and is not being able to make amends. I would definitely take it up with SM and/or committee and explain why this needs to resolved in the matter that your son is attempting. I applaud him for being willing to do either of those uncomfortable things to attempt resolution.

[Ria]

 

The boy is now telling his parents that DS hit him and pushed him down. There are no witnesses to support either boy since the other two were ahead of DS and the 4th boy....

As for DS's reaction to the decision last night - he asked for a chance to stand before the troop and make a statement which would include an apology. He met with the SM to go over what he wanted to say. He was denied with the reason being "It wouldn't do any good and wouldn't serve anyone." Nor is DS allowed to address the complainant, his family or the committee.

 

Well, this is bad. I would take it to another level, I think. It's one thing for this to be a name-calling incident, but now this is a physical altercation allegation and that's an entirely different level. Can you go over the SM's head? I hate to suggest that, but your SM's approach, and his words, are a problem and seem the very antithesis of scouting.

[QueenCat]

DS admits to calling him a baby and a girl scout. Names that all of the scouts have been called and have called each other, including some of the leaders.

 

The boy is now telling his parents that DS hit him and pushed him down. There are no witnesses to support either boy since the other two were ahead of DS and the 4th boy.

 

This supposedly happened on Tues. The kid didn't make the allegations until after he returned home from camp on Fri. night and he initially named another boy, not DS. That boy was not at the meeting last Monday but DS was. It was then that this kid pointed out DS and switched his story.

 

 

In my opinion, from what I know about boys in general and our troop specifically, nothing DS said was out of line.

 

As for DS's reaction to the decision last night - he asked for a chance to stand before the troop and make a statement which would include an apology. He met with the SM to go over what he wanted to say. He was denied with the reason being "It wouldn't do any good and wouldn't serve anyone." Nor is DS allowed to address the complainant, his family or the committee.

 

Based on this, I think you need to discuss this with the District Exec. He/she needs to counsel your SM. I know you've said your SM has praised your son in the past but I just don't see it. Your son's approach is reasonable, and the other scout needs to be disciplined for lying, with the change of story. He either lied about your son or he lied about the first one he accused; either way, he lied. That is just as unacceptable as calling someone a name. I think it is terribly wrong for your son to not be allowed to address the troop and other parents. Your SM needs some serious leader training.

[ciyates]

Your son is always, always, always allowed to address any issues or concerns he has to the committee. He is also allowed to ask the SM to step out since the SM is not a member of the committee.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I vaguely remember a thread about a scout camping trip, so I'm not real clear on what the OA thing was, but your son admitted to bullying a kid or kids. He said he was 'going along with the group'. All other issues aside......(OA thing and the fact that there were formerly complaints about other boys.) could it be that your son feels remorse about his role in this and just wants to avoid the whole situation? Has he apologized to the boy or boys who were bullied?

He didn't even know there was a problem until last night. This came from out of nowhere for DS. The discussion last week was general and about another boy.

 

He has asked for a chance to speak before the troop and was denied the opportunity. He is also not allowed to speak to his accuser.

Even if other boys were involved, to fully OWN his own behaviour and apologize for it would probably be therapeutic.

 

He does own up to what he said.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I'm not sure how the Scouts are to blame here. Your son did something wrong...wrong enough that a parent complained. So now your son is going to receive discipline from the Scouts for behaving in a way not fitting to the organization (and, from your post, he admits as much). How is this drama or unfair?

I don't remember using the word unfair nor did I assign blame anywhere (I'll go back and reread to see which words I did use). I did say it is dramatic.

Your son ought to be the bigger person. Apologize to the boy, the parents of the boy, and the scoutmaster. And then get on with being a better Scout. Quitting the organization seems like a cop-out to me.

My DS is trying to be the bigger person. If you can tell me how he isn't, I would appreciate knowing. He asked for a chance to say something to the boy and the troop and was denied.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I feel your pain. Something came up with my son at a camp. I'm not ready to label him as a bully. But I do think that he has to learn what behavior and words are appropriate and which aren't. Being corrected by adults at camp, apologizing the the other person, working on tasks with the other person in a polite and friendly way and also having to discuss it with me have all been part of that learning process. And it is forcing me to take a good look at my kid (whom I love) and make sure that I am very specific with him about what is and is not acceptable behavior. I've also had to have conversations with him about steering clear of some of the other scouts (who either are poor examples or who will start a lot of rough housing and wrestling and then complain that it was rough).

Thank you for sharing this.

On the other hand, I find it troubling that an adult would think that there have to be complaints from other scouts or their parents to step in and say that this or that behavior is not ok. If the SM sees actions that do not exemplify the scout law, then it is his responsibility to step in and correct those scouts. Same with an ASM, Committee Member, Scouting Alumni, Merit Badge Counselor, etc.

 

Only correcting scouts when someone else complains sets up a situation where it isn't the behavior that is inappropriate, but only the behavior when it is complained about.

This is what I am upset over.

I imagine this is what is frustrating the OP's son. Not that he is being taken to task for his behavior at camp, but that other poor behavior seems to be ignored, even when the adults know it is happening.

This is what is upsetting DS. THank you for putting it into words for me.

I would encourage your ds to do the right thing, regardless of what other scouts are called out on. But I would also encourage the SM to step in to correct behavior, regardless of which parents are complaining.

.

[astrid]

My DS is trying to be the bigger person. If you can tell me how he isn't, I would appreciate knowing. He asked for a chance to say something to the boy and the troop and was denied.

 

To be fair, this information was not shared in your OP. Ria and the others were responding to your OP, not to the additional information/explanation that you shared most recently.

 

astrid

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I completely agree.

 

Also it is frustrating that there weren't objective adults around to view this situation. It's just taking the words of the kids involved and piecing the situation together.

 

Really, though, we're not responsible for the behavior of the other bad kids. I'd address the behavior in your ds and be thankful that you have this opportunity for character development. It's a good example for your ds to see that he needs to do the right thing even if people around him aren't. I'd be careful not to give ds sympathy here. Being even a little bit mean is not a good thing and dealing swiftly with this could cause him to think twice in the future.

 

It's difficult not to give him sympathy when he is so sad. Scouts means everything to him and the genuine shock on his face when he was told of the accusation was heartwrenching. He awoke this morning in tears. His first words this morning were "I would never, ever hit a younger scout."

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Is it possible from the victims point of view it was her son that had done the worse as far as bullying goes? No matter what spin you put on it really doesn't matter. You can't blame "following the leader" your whole life. If my kid does something I don't care what they other kids did, it is not my problem. I raised my kid to do better. From the time mine were very small that has not worked in my house. I would never bring it up even if my child got in trouble, it kind of looks like a cop out. Little Jonny was doing it too etc. It doesn't matter. Persnal responsibility. If this was the behavior from my child he would most likely not go back to scouts because I would feel like he is not ready to be his own person.

 

It isn't that he is saying "Everyone else was doing it so I joined in." He was more like everyone does it and has done it for years, I don't see the big deal. I guess the vagueness of my OP didn't help.

 

DS called the boy a baby and a girl scout, names that everyone including the leaders have called boys for years. Actually, they have been called far worse, but that is another thread.

[A.J. at J.A.]

It's difficult not to give him sympathy when he is so sad. Scouts means everything to him and the genuine shock on his face when he was told of the accusation was heartwrenching. He awoke this morning in tears. His first words this morning were "I would never, ever hit a younger scout."

 

Being wrongly accused of hitting the younger scout is so upsetting! I believe it is fair to give sympathy and compassion for that. Use it as an opportunity (as I'm sure you are), to teach him to live "above reproach." I've been using that phrase with my DSs as well. If we behave in a manner that is above reproach (i.e. not calling names in the first place, even if others do) - then we aren't as wide open for allegations (not that it won't ever happen, I've been wrongly accused before and tried to live as beyond reproach as possible, but I'm human too). This is a great opportunity for him to learn and build himself stronger in character. Nothing wrong with having empathy for his feelings. I'd definitely hate to see him drop out of scouts though - or make a quick exit after his MBs and eagle are done. This is such a great opportunity for him to grow and really take on strong leadership opportunities in the future.

 

Blessings,

Angela

Edited August 2, 2011 by A.J. at J.A.

[Alicia64]

Ummmm, so your DS admits to being a bully, right? I mean, in his eyes, he doesn't consider it to be mean enough, only just as mean as other were, but in the end, isn't is it the victim's point of view that matters? Doesn't the victim get to decide what "mean" is? Somewhere else in your Boy Scout pack is a a child, someone's son, who is home telling his family about his miserable experience at camp, about how he was bullied by his own Pack members. Wouldn't you, as the mother of that child, feel that it should be brought to the attention of the Scout leaders??

 

I don't see the drama here, at least on the Boy Scouts side. Your DS admits to being mean, is getting called on it, and is now put out about it?

 

Maybe I am missing the back side of the story, but from just this post alone, it sounds like perhaps your son is learning a valuable life lesson. 1. Don't be mean, even a "little mean" still hurts. and 2. Don't go along with what others are doing especially if you KNOW it is mean.

 

Please don't shoot -- I don't mean this meanly. But it's doing your son a long-term disservice if you believe his story. It sounds to me like he was one of the trouble makers. To just let him finish a few things and bail isn't the best solution.

 

I don't think it does our kids any good for us to believe that our kids woudn't do harm. If you truly believe that your son has been wrongly named, that's totally different. But if you think he might be white washing the truth, then he needs to do some repair work with the other scouts.

 

And I say this w/ one boy who is a bully magnet and another boy who could lean in the direction of bullying if I don't watch him.

 

I see this more as a learning opportunity (albeit a yucky one) -- than drama.

 

Take care,

 

Alley

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Please don't shoot -- I don't mean this meanly. But it's doing your son a long-term disservice if you believe his story. I agree. It sounds to me like he was one of the trouble makers. To just let him finish a few things and bail isn't the best solution.

 

I don't think it does our kids any good for us to believe that our kids woudn't do harm.I know this. No blinders here. If you truly believe that your son has been wrongly named, that's totally different. But if you think he might be white washing the truth, then he needs to do some repair work with the other scouts. He is not. He has admitted to wrongdoing - the namecalling. He claims - with tears and on his Faith - that he did not hit or push this boy.

 

And I say this w/ one boy who is a bully magnet and another boy who could lean in the direction of bullying if I don't watch him.

 

I see this more as a learning opportunity (albeit a yucky one) -- than drama.

 

Take care,

 

Alley

.

[Alicia64]

Well good luck! I hope I didn't come off badly. I just stuck in the middle w/ my kids watching out for bullying with one -- and having to watch the other for being too aggressive.

 

The truth is, dh and I have made a promise to each other that one of us (probably dh) will always go to camp w/ our kids. Sounds like we're helicopter parents. Which is true.

 

And good luck on your weight loss journey. I lost 48 lbs. about six years ago and still watch it daily like a hawk. Good luck!

 

Alley

[Granny_Weatherwax]

To be fair, this information was not shared in your OP. Ria and the others were responding to your OP, not to the additional information/explanation that you shared most recently.

 

astrid

 

Okay. Thanks.

 

I went back and edited the OP.

[sbgrace]

It isn't that he is saying "Everyone else was doing it so I joined in." He was more like everyone does it and has done it for years, I don't see the big deal. I guess the vagueness of my OP didn't help.

 

DS called the boy a baby and a girl scout, names that everyone including the leaders have called boys for years. Actually, they have been called far worse, but that is another thread.

 

I'm surprised that name calling and put downs are tolerated and even, it seems, encouraged by leaders doing it as well? I don't get it at all. This is an atmosphere of disrespect. No one deserves to be called a name. :confused: If my husband called me or my sons a name it would entirely inappropriate, yes? If he calls his subordinate a name it's entirely inappropriate, yes? I thought scouts was to train boys for life as men?

 

As a teacher I would never tolerate name calling in my classroom. I would never dream of calling a child a name as a teacher. I don't get this troop mentality at all.

 

Color me confused.

[stansclan89]

I was telling my ds's about your situation and asking them if there was name calling from leaders in their troop. ds18 said "They call them girl scouts? The girls in the Venture crews are usually much tougher and better at scouting than the boys. :001_huh:"

 

:lol::lol:

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I'm surprised that name calling and put downs are tolerated and even, it seems, encouraged by leaders doing it as well? I don't get it at all. This is an atmosphere of disrespect. No one deserves to be called a name. :confused: If my husband called me or my sons a name it would entirely inappropriate, yes? If he calls his subordinate a name it's entirely inappropriate, yes? I thought scouts was to train boys for life as men?

 

As a teacher I would never tolerate name calling in my classroom. I would never dream of calling a child a name as a teacher. I don't get this troop at all.

 

Color me confused.

:iagree:, that is one of the reasons this situation is weird, frustrating, etc.

The leaders have called the boys names, the older scouts have called the boys names, it is a social-cognitive behavior.

 

One of the worst names I have heard is the leaders saying the boys are being -icks. Yes, that is the term that has been used.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I was telling my ds's about your situation and asking them if there was name calling from leaders in their troop. ds18 said "They call them girl scouts? The girls in the Venture crews are usually much tougher and better at scouting than the boys. :001_huh:"

 

:lol::lol:

:lol: Thank you for this!!!

[Parker Martin]

The leaders have called the boys names, the older scouts have called the boys names, it is a social-cognitive behavior.

 

Have you ever been around groups of only men? A good three quarters of what they say is generally devoted to teasing each other. I'd say that learning to give and receive teasing cheerfully is part of learning to be a man.

[clarkacademy]

:iagree:, that is one of the reasons this situation is weird, frustrating, etc.

The leaders have called the boys names, the older scouts have called the boys names, it is a social-cognitive behavior.

 

One of the worst names I have heard is the leaders saying the boys are being -icks. Yes, that is the term that has been used.

 

I am so confused! That is not nice behavior and even if someone else thinks it is acceptable it just isn't nice. Why do you put up with that? Is scouts just that great? I really mean no smart mouthing I am just confused. I would freak if someone talked that way to my kid. Maybe I am just over protective I don't know. I have been accused as such!

[Parker Martin]

Heh. I guess I don't have a good enough imagination for this. What is the first letter of -icks supposed to be?

 

Obviously leaders shouldn't be using teasing that is offensive or hurtful.

[stansclan89]

Have you ever been around groups of only men? A good three quarters of what they say is generally devoted to teasing each other. I'd say that learning to give and receive teasing cheerfully is part of learning to be a man.

 

:iagree: The problem is it wasn't cheerful.

[stansclan89]

Heh. I guess I don't have a good enough imagination for this. What is the first letter of -icks supposed to be?

 

Obviously leaders shouldn't be using teasing that is offensive or hurtful.

 

d

[Sebastian (a lady)]

When I talked to my son about the incident he was involved in, he said something that I thought was profound. I kept asking him what had happened between him and the other boy. He really wasn't able to give me any details. I kept pressing him, thinking that he was trying to cover up.

 

Finally I asked him what the camp leader had told him the problem was. He said he remembered talking to this adult, but didn't remember what he'd said. He said, "I just remember feeling really bad."

 

I'm still not totally sure if he felt bad because he was called out on his behavior or bad because he'd hurt one of the other camper's feelings. But I could identify, because that was a pretty good description of how I'd felt when the camp director pulled me aside at dinner and told me what had happened.

 

I'm not an expert in bullying. But I think that it's important to address behavior and words, not to pin a label on someone. I worry that labeling someone as a bully or a "bad kid" will give them a rep to live up to (or down to). It is a lot more time consuming to take an active part in training these future adults by correcting and steering. But I think that it is necessary.

 

WRT the OP, I think that this troop needs to do some hard looking at how they are training their scouts to behave. I have worked with a lot of scouts over the last 8 years of being a BSA leader. They come in lots of sizes, backgrounds and levels of strength. Calling someone names like baby or girl scout when they are struggling with a task does not strike me as KIND or HELPFUL or COURTEOUS or HELPFUL. (Not to mention the veiled contempt for women that the girl scout comment holds.) Namecalling of a fellow scout (or a scout you are leading) is not LOYAL. Nor does allowing a scout to make a public accusation, then change the story, without allowing the accused scout to defend himself represent LOYALTY or TRUSTWORTHINESS. Not correcting scouts who are observed in wrong actions because no one else is complaining about their behavior is not BRAVE.

 

I don't think that it is right to let an accusation hang over a scout without allowing himself to state his side of things. Nor do I think it's appropriate to tell him that he may not appologize for his part in the name calling (which might well shame some of the other scouts into changing their behavior in the future).

 

However, there is nothing that prevents him from making the apology for his name calling in person outside of a scout meeting with the younger scout and the two sets of parents present and/or with a more proactive member of the troop (is there a troop chaplain?).

 

Rather than Eagle and dive, I might suggest that if this breach cannot be repaired, it would be worth considering changing troops. Let him be up front with the new SM that there was an incident, that he tried to make amends but felt like a fresh start was in order and of benefit to all the scouts involved. (That will help prevent gossip from following him around.)

Edited August 2, 2011 by Sebastian (a lady)
took out a fragment that didn't make sense

[Soror]

Have you ever been around groups of only men? A good three quarters of what they say is generally devoted to teasing each other. I'd say that learning to give and receive teasing cheerfully is part of learning to be a man.

 

Seems to be the case according to what dh relays about hanging out with the guys. They all give and take, that wouldn't really stress me out in and of itself. I think we can all be a bit sensitive at times and things are n't always black and white. I could see this situation being bullying or simple good natured teasing that generally goes on.

[LG Gone Wild]

At the OP, I get where you are coming from. You really need to go above the scoutmaster. He sounds like a lousy leader.

 

I don't see the point about getting up in arms about the childish level of name calling. Kids do that just like they belch out loud and force out farts. There are ways to correct/discipline that without making a bigger deal than it is.

 

During my son's BSA summer camp was a pretty bad one as well (my son also got in a lot of trouble). One of things that happened was that a scout continually bedwet and was teased horribly about it (naturally). My son was also teased relentlessly because he didn't know what the word "j!zz" meant. When troop convened the scoutmaster addressed these matters (teasing, tent talk, and other stuff) quite thoroughly without calling out anyone. Then he privately talked to individuals who needed further guidance/discipline.

 

We got ds's discipline letter and I choked up a little bit. I was in despair that his scouting days were over. It's a long story but the punishment handed down showed me how thoughtful the scoutmaster was and how fair. The letter ended with the statement that the council all agreed that they viewed my son to be a good person and a good scout and they look forward to helping him.

 

Based on what you shared, I have no confidence in your scoutmaster for any sort of justice or fairness or insight.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Have you ever been around groups of only men? A good three quarters of what they say is generally devoted to teasing each other. I'd say that learning to give and receive teasing cheerfully is part of learning to be a man.

 

Yes, I have and :iagree:. That's why I said in a previous post that I don't consider what DS did/said to be wrong.

[Parker Martin]

d

 

An adult should know better than that. That's inappropriate.

 

My take would be that calling a peer who is whining and not pulling his weight (given that what is required of him is reasonable) a baby is not terribly inappropriate. Impossible to know without tone and whatnot. There would be better ways to motivate or chastise him, but "baby" is fairly mild.

 

So I'm guessing that the real issue is over the hitting. The OP is in a better position than anyone to know whether or not her son is telling the truth. If he is, he should insist on being able to talk to his troop or write a letter to troop members calmly stating his case and ending with a bit about water under the bridge and all that.