Do you tithe?

[3lilreds in NC]

I'm deleting what I wrote because I didn't read all the responses and there has been *much* more discussion and my response was not useful. I'll just add that we tithe our 10% to church and give other money to other ministries. We do believe it's an act of obedience and we have been blessed as a direct result of tithing.

[Peek a Boo]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the the entire Law was fulfilled and that none of the miztvos are still binding... that someone can freely assume an obligation, but is not required to.

 

...but do you not hold that somethings are forbidden - or *wrong*? How is that different? Are wrong things no longer wrong because the law has been fulfilled (from your perspective?) - and if they are still wrong how do y'all measure which wrong things are still wrong (why homosexuality and not sha'atnes (wool/linen blends)? [serious, sincere questions here.]

 

See this is another place we disagree... from where I hold it is, by definition (by G-d's definition) not a 'big task' it is impossible. The Law is the blueprint of the universe, the foundation of all that exists... it doesn't alter and it can't be fulfilled and thus not binding on us [the Jewish people]. Obviously your theology is different! :)

 

Many things are still wrong --adultery and lying are still wrong, but every Christian does them in thought or actions. The fact that they are done does not mean they are something we can necessarily condone legally or morally. I can only take comfort in the fact that my inability to keep all the law --even the clothing/dietary laws-- are covered in Christ. because there is NO WAY I can keep the entire law -esp in Spirit-- to rely on my salvation. But there are manymanymany Christians who do feel compelled to keep many of the laws out of a personal conviction. Messianic Jews are convicted pretty heavily in this area.

 

 

to save myself some typing...

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Christianity-Christian-Living-1401/Covering-oneself-Lord.htm

"in order for a person to be justified before the Lord by the Law, that individual would have to perfectly obey each and every commandment. If we attempt to be right before God by obedience to His commandments, then each and every one of us has already failed, because each and every one of us has failed to be obedient to EVERY commandment. But God, being rich in mercy, has made a way of being justified, apart from the law of God as given through His servant Moses. He has made justification by faith in His Son a means of forgiveness and right standing before Him, apart from the law. If a person simply trusts in the atoning sacrifice made by God's Son as their means of justification, God will count their faith to them as righteousness."

 

and a series of answers on the topic:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071230204958AAXwjIg

 

and yes-- you can be judged through the law or thru Christ. More at Hebrews. and I'll stop there and agree with your last post to Phred --i think it pretty much wraps things up :)

[LisaNY]

And yes, tithing --as well as keeping alllll the laws-- is still in effect. But the punishments for breaking [esp IN SPIRIT] those laws is taken by Christ. Fulfilling the action of the law w/o keeping its spirit is just as bad as not keeping it materially. One grumble or second thought and you're toast.

 

I agree. However, I don't agree about the "you're toast" part. G-d is a merciful G-d.

 

There's a lot about the purpose of the law and "saved by grace, not law" in the NT that doesn't really apply to this thread, and i would encourage you to direct any more specific questions to a new thread.

 

I really did not have any questions to begin with. My initial question was really more of a rhetorical one. :001_smile:

 

God does not change: if He accepted a sacrifice so Holy and Perfect and for all who Believe, then he can't hold us accountable for it.

 

Here we are back at "nullify" vs/= "fulfill". Yes, G-d does not change. His thoughts about the tithe did not change, either. What Christians have a problem with is the idea that G-d can expect things from us and still save us by grace.

[Peek a Boo]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying the the entire Law was fulfilled and that none of the miztvos are still binding... that someone can freely assume an obligation, but is not required to.

 

...but do you not hold that somethings are forbidden - or *wrong*? How is that different? Are wrong things no longer wrong because the law has been fulfilled (from your perspective?) - and if they are still wrong how do y'all measure which wrong things are still wrong (why homosexuality and not sha'atnes (wool/linen blends)? [serious, sincere questions here.]

 

See this is another place we disagree... from where I hold it is, by definition (by G-d's definition) not a 'big task' it is impossible. The Law is the blueprint of the universe, the foundation of all that exists... it doesn't alter and it can't be fulfilled and thus not binding on us [the Jewish people]. Obviously your theology is different! :)

 

 

oops-- i don't think i was very clear...

 

we continue to speak out against actions and morals that are still renounced in the NT: adultery, lying, theft, homosexuality, fornication, etc. But the Law itself served a ceremonious purpose and we suffered because of it. Christ exhorts us to forego ceremony and focus on Spirit and Faith.

 

in a nutshell, anyway.....

[LisaNY]

But the Law itself served a ceremonious purpose and we suffered because of it. Christ exhorts us to forego ceremony and focus on Spirit and Faith.

 

in a nutshell, anyway.....

 

Yeshua (Jesus) did not "forego ceremony" when He was among us. He kept Torah. Here goes another rhetorical question - Why would He say this, if He were exhorting us to "forego ceremony"?:

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

G-d's calling on the Jews is irrevocable.

[Peek a Boo]

Yeshua (Jesus) did not "forego ceremony" when He was among us. He kept Torah. Here goes another rhetorical question - Why would He say this, if He were exhorting us to "forego ceremony"?:

 

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

G-d's calling on the Jews is irrevocable.

 

Christ HAD to keep Torah -- that was kinda the whole point. As the only human to ever be able to keep the entire extent of the Law in Spirit and deed, only He was capable of offering Himself as a sacrifice for all people.

 

I agree that God's calling on ALL people is irrevocable :)

[Peek a Boo]

I agree. However, I don't agree about the "you're toast" part. G-d is a merciful G-d.

 

--

Here we are back at "nullify" vs/= "fulfill". Yes, G-d does not change. His thoughts about the tithe did not change, either. What Christians have a problem with is the idea that G-d can expect things from us and still save us by grace.

 

 

sorry - i missed this post :)

 

and again.... nullify means it doesn't apply *at all* --to God, it does apply. It is fulfilled in Christ. The fact that we are not required to KEEP those laws in order to be saved does not nullify the fact that they --and the consequences for not keeping them-- are still binding on us in God's Judgement.

 

as you shared:

 

"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

he then goes on to distinguish "these commands" from "The Law." And what God thinks about the body and clothes ;)

 

Yes, there are still things that God expects us to do as Christians. But [just to stay on topic for the thread] counting out exactly ten percent isn't one of them.... scripturally speaking.

[cricket1178]

Phred, I just wanted to say that I'm not sure you were watching the "700 Club" closely. When Pat referrred to the people "tithing", he was talking about tithing to their specific churches. Any money given to the "700 Club" is an offering given above the tithe. I just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding.

 

I don't give to televanelists for many of the reasons already mentioned.

[LisaNY]

Christ HAD to keep Torah -- that was kinda the whole point. As the only human to ever be able to keep the entire extent of the Law in Spirit and deed, only He was capable of offering Himself as a sacrifice for all people.

 

I agree that God's calling on ALL people is irrevocable :)

 

Yes, G-d has a calling on all people to Himself, BUT He has a special, specific calling on the Jewish people. (As specifically illustrated in Romans 9-11)

[LisaNY]

sorry - i missed this post :)

 

and again.... nullify means it doesn't apply *at all* --to God, it does apply. It is fulfilled in Christ. The fact that we are not required to KEEP those laws in order to be saved does not nullify the fact that they --and the consequences for not keeping them-- are still binding on us in God's Judgement.

 

as you shared:

 

"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

he then goes on to distinguish "these commands" from "The Law." And what God thinks about the body and clothes ;)

 

Yes, there are still things that God expects us to do as Christians. But [just to stay on topic for the thread] counting out exactly ten percent isn't one of them.... scripturally speaking.

 

Peek, keep in mind that Yeshua is speaking to Jews here. He is speaking about Torah - the whole Torah. He would not get very far with a Jewish audience if he were to reduce Torah to a few "commandments." What He DOES do is to bring out the heart of the matter on specific commandments, actually making Torah more strict in those areas. (i.e., "...whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery in his heart...")

He was illustrating the deeper meanings for those passages in Torah.

[Omma]

We do 10% of our gross income. My dh helps to 'keep me honest', as I didn't quite live up to this when I was single (maybe I did 10% of my net income).

 

Brenda

[Peek a Boo]

Peek, keep in mind that Yeshua is speaking to Jews here. He is speaking about Torah - the whole Torah. He would not get very far with a Jewish audience if he were to reduce Torah to a few "commandments." What He DOES do is to bring out the heart of the matter on specific commandments, actually making Torah more strict in those areas. (i.e., "...whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery in his heart...")

He was illustrating the deeper meanings for those passages in Torah.

 

i think we're gonna hafta agree to disagree here.

Christ made it a point to speak inside and outside the temple so EVERYONE could hear him. There are numerous places where He "didn't get far w/ a Jewish audience" --in fact He roused quite a bit of anger w/ His interpretation and keeping and teaching of Torah. They killed Him.

 

I'm kinda stumped at what you're reading in Romans 10, because it pretty much kills the idea of Jews following The Law to be righteous:

 

Romans 10

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

 

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

 

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

 

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)

 

7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

 

8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

 

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

[Guest vonngirl]

We tithe 10% to our church because we believe it is a commandment. God blesses all of his children, but additional blessings do come from obeying his commandments. However, Malachi (3: 8-10 KJV) notes tithes and offerings - there is a difference between the two. Ten percent is what the Lord asks of our income, which goes to the church as tithing, but then we also give additional donations to the church and other charities as offerings to specifically help the poor and needy in our local area and also those suffering in other parts of the world.

 

The only donation I make via TV is Children's Miracle Network when they have telethons, but most often I buy a balloon at Rite-Aid or Costco when they have a fundraising event going on.

 

Also, I want to clarify that our congregation is a 'lay ministry' - no one receives any money for their service. Our bishop (equivalent of a pastor/minister/priest/rabbi) has his own job and income. Tithing money is used strictly to run the buildings (electricity, cleaning supplies - members take turns cleaning the building every Saturday but the church provides the supplies,etc) and to subsidize tuition at church universities for members and non-members alike.

[Peek a Boo]

I'll try to catch everything you mentioned Eliana :)

 

yes, the Romans were the ones who actually put Christ on the Cross, but as you mentioned, we would need to delve into the whole Jewish Law/ Roman Law thing. The Jewish leadership plotted to kill Him for quite some time. I don't fault the Jews as a whole for that --it just is what it is. My point was to show that Christ DID anger many Jews w/ what He said about Torah. Rome's involvement was to cover their legal position. That some feel compelled to react by persecuting EVERY Jew is simply horrible, imnsho. Christians are guilty of all kinds of abuses too.

 

Back to Romans 10 about the Law-- you're right: for Jews it isn't so much a salvation issue. For Christians it is. Thus the suffering ;) And I'll probably get some terminology wrong too, so we'll let someone correct me or clarify :)

 

Yes, the OT still serves a VERY useful purpose: for teaching, learning, advising, rebuking, etc. We have an eternal High Priest who shed His blood once for all. We could probably add a lot to the discussion by asking you to share how the Jews handle sacrifices and penalties today.

But that sounds like new thread material.....

 

I agree that many OT verses are used incorrectly to support a NT position. Many parts of the OT serve different purposes: Proverbs and Psalms are obviously different from the Laws. The historical books offer insight [and, uh, history.] Every part of scripture reveals more about the nature of God -including the Law.

 

Yes, some Christians do have some personal convictions to take on various scripture for themselves. This is usually seen as applicable to oNLY that one person or family. Adding it as a "rule" for others to follow is unscriptural. Most denominations are literally people of like-minded doctrine: you aren't "forced" to believe a certain way: they simply say that IF you believe these things too, then this is the congregation for you. i have yet to find a congregation that i fully support in their doctrinal beliefs.

 

I do realize that Messianic Jews are pretty far from Jewish, lol. But for one wanting more info, that's what you would google. It's my understanding that there's quite a few different sects of 'real' Jews as well. There's a lot of "slightly offensive" labels in the Christian community too.

 

i think that's addressing most of your questions [w/o writing a novel, anyway]. I'll be back tonight if i missed anything....

[CookieMonster]

I see all this posts about how God provides for you... God doesn't do that...

 

Phred, in Him we live and move and have our being. Apart from Him we have nothing. Our very breath comes from our Creator. So, yes, God does provide for us. It's all His to begin with.

[ereks mom]

We do not believe it guarantees us blessings (it rains on the just and the unjust, you know). We do believe that being open-handed when we have enough is "sowing" for the possible times when we don't . . . that if we share, God may put people in our paths to share with us when we have needs.

 

 

:iagree:

[mom31257]

I do not have time to read all this post, but I wanted to say what we do.

We do give 10% of our gross income to our church. They do not require it, but we do it anyway. Churches need income to be able to operate and tithes do just that. Our church has a food bank and gives to local people in need financially as well. I feel that I can be a part of helping many more people than I would ever know of by supporting it. We also sponsor a child in Kenya and try to give to other things as the needs arise, including donating items to an organization in our town.

 

I want our children to grow up with a giving heart because I believe that giving people are more joyous people.

 

We do not "give to get", but I know that we have always tried to do as we believe God wants us to, and we have ALWAYS been taken care of by Him. When we had our 11yo dd, I made more money than my husband. I have not worked full-time since I had her. Many years it did not work out on paper for me to be able to be home, but I was. We have had thousands of dollars in gifts and blessings. Someone in our family just this year paid off our van for us when we didn't ask or have an extreme need for it.

 

We want to be faithful to Him because we love Him, not because of what He does for us.

 

Amy of GA

Darin's wife of 17 years

11yo dd

5yo ds

[MerryAtHope]

Stuff like this gets my goat! Televangelests playing on people's fears etc... I'm not in favor of a "prosperity gospel" either. But I do believe in tithing to a local, Christ-centered church, giving to missions, helping the poor, volunteering etc... I don't give in order to manipulate God into giving me what I need, but I do fully trust that He will supply all of my needs, and He always has. I also believe we're called to be a wise and good steward of my money in spending, saving or investing, budgeting, and to know what it's going for when I give it away.

 

Merry :-)