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This was new, and I got mad. He said, "Everyone else reads like this."


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Guest Dulcimeramy

#2 son just turned 13. Today was his turn for reading aloud (part of our public speaking training) and by the time he finished I was seeing red.

 

This child is my very best public reader. He has a wonderful reading voice in every way. I can count on him to bring out hidden depths of understanding in any passage when he reads aloud.

 

Today, he read in a sing-song voice, breathing incorrectly, pausing at the end of lines for a breath and ignoring punctuation, and generally sounding like a person who has can decode most words but can't comprehend them at all. He read four pages aloud that way.

 

:confused:

 

I said (and I'm not proud of this), "What is the matter with you?"

 

He gave me this totally stuck-up look and said, "This is how everyone at church reads. I thought I'd practice it."

 

I wanted to smack him. But he's right and he knows it. His peers are not very literate. He would rather skip church than be different and he is struggling right now with not fitting in and not wanting to fit in. I understand that.

 

But I'm not going to let him act like that. I made him re-read it aloud until he was up to my standards. It took until the fourth read for him to start sounding like Jonas again.

 

I told him that nobody reads that other way because they want to sound like that. I told him he is very privileged and lucky to be able to read well and I will hold him accountable.

 

He never apologized. He said only a few of the girls can read and the other boys think that a boy reading well sounds like a girl. The other boys are very vocal about hating school and hating reading.

 

To tell the absolute truth (and praying I don't offend anyone) it reminded me of when my black friend told me how his correct speech and education caused his friends to tell him he was acting white and he had to learn to deal with that.

 

DH is furious. So am I. But I'm not entirely sure who we are mad at. We're mad at everybody, including ourselves.

 

I often overreact on Mondays, so go easy on me. Has your child ever practiced dumbing himself down to fit in at church?

 

He is one inch shy of six feet tall, muscular and athletic, with a deep voice at age 13. There is nothing girlish about him. At home we believe boys should be well-educated.

 

:(

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Guest Dulcimeramy

I forgot to add that DH and I each gave Jonas a two-sentence lecture, with feeling, but then dropped the subject entirely. So this isn't hanging over the household, or anything, but I'm sure DH will want to talk about it after the kids go to bed.

 

What would your feelings be?

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I'd be livid, too!! Not at the same level yet - my oldest is only 7, but he's well on his way to being a giant:) - but I have also made him re-read the same thing several times when he chooses not to read it correctly. I KNOW he can read it well, so I refuse to allow him to do it badly & get away with it (sometimes he puts on this gratingly high-pitched obnoxious voice & tries to read... GRR!). To me, that is one of the benefits of homeschooling - I don't HAVE to accept sub-par performance when I know for a proven fact that better is just a breath away <g>.

 

For the church group and fitting in - I understand that kids do what they feel they have to do, and they need to learn to interact with other kids & adults in their own ways. However, I have made it clear about various other friend-induced actions "School time is MY time, not play time - do it right" and "I am your mother, NOT your friend, so don't bother xyz with me". Tell him he can practice ridiculous reading on his own time!!

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I would have handled it differently. You're entering a stage when peer approval will be very important to Jonas, at points in time it will be more important to him that his your approval. Don't loose him to anger now, no matter how justified it is.

 

I would have explained to him that yes - many people at church read aloud poorly. Tell him it's because they received and sub-par education. Ask him what effect that unintelligent reading has on the words being shared. The congregation shuts down when the Scriptures are read poorly, and people don't learn or get inspired from them. Point out to him people who do read well in church - I bet he already likes them. Were I in your shoes I would also say that it hurt to hear him read aloud like that because of all the years of hard work *he* put into learning to read beautifully were thrown away for a moment. It'd be tricky to tell him that and not have it come out a guilt-trip but it is worth the work IMO.

 

Above all, I would not take his actions personally - he did not mean them as an affront to you. He must feel so incredibly "out there" with his big body and new voice. It's hard growing into our puppy-paws and dealing with how differently people treat you once you have a grown-up body.

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I would feel the same as you.

 

You are right though in stressing that those halting readers don't read that way on purpose, it's ignorance and a failure on the part of their educators.

 

I don't know what I'd do. I wouldn't want to leave the church, the better response is to change his outlook, but that is such a precarious age.

 

Can you teach a public speaking class so the readings go more smoothly?

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I would have handled it differently. You're entering a stage when peer approval will be very important to Jonas, at points in time it will be more important to him that his your approval. Don't loose him to anger now, no matter how justified it is.

 

I would have explained to him that yes - many people at church read aloud poorly. Tell him it's because they received and sub-par education. Ask him what effect that unintelligent reading has on the words being shared. The congregation shuts down when the Scriptures are read poorly, and people don't learn or get inspired from them. Point out to him people who do read well in church - I bet he already likes them. Were I in your shoes I would also say that it hurt to hear him read aloud like that because of all the years of hard work *he* put into learning to read beautifully were thrown away for a moment. It'd be tricky to tell him that and not have it come out a guilt-trip but it is worth the work IMO.

 

Above all, I would not take his actions personally - he did not mean them as an affront to you. He must feel so incredibly "out there" with his big body and new voice. It's hard growing into our puppy-paws and dealing with how differently people treat you once you have a grown-up body.

:iagree:

 

I was going to write an answer about teenagers need to not be "different" but Elizabeth said it well. It is a hard line to walk and hard for parents to hang on to that relationship when the rest of the world becomes an important standard for them and they are trying to find their place. FWIW - they grow out of it and mom and dad become heroes again if you hang on to that relationship.

 

:glare:Of course I didn't see how old your kids were so you may already know all of this. ;)

 

eta: the only reason I know these things, btw, is from getting it wrong so often and seeing how I should have done it in hindsight

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How frustrating! One other thing you might want to discuss, if you think it is appropriate, is that sometimes people (especially teenage boys) will make fun of or belittle something because of insecurity. They say that it's too "girlish" or "babyish" when really they mean that they feel dumb or awkward because they can't do it well. It's really hard at that age, though. Poor guy. I know he has to be feeling very stuck about this. My son had a beautiful singing voice and was in a chorister (choir) program for years before his voice changed, but the last year he did it, he was really feeling self-conscious about it and resisting a lot. I think he was really relieved when his voice started changing and cracking and he had to drop out! LOL His voice has settled down now and I'm trying to get him to sing again (just singing along with the hymns in church) but he is still hearing the voices of those other boys who kept telling him that it was just for girls or whatever else they were telling him. It's sad to see them pressured like this--especially when they have a gift...

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It would take a certain kind of kid to respond to this but with mine I'd also frame it this way, "Are you looking to lower your standards to the LCM or could you instead give other kids a notion of what it looks like to strive for better. Chances are they haven't had that model".

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I would have handled it differently. You're entering a stage when peer approval will be very important to Jonas, at points in time it will be more important to him that his your approval. Don't loose him to anger now, no matter how justified it is.

 

I would have explained to him that yes - many people at church read aloud poorly. Tell him it's because they received and sub-par education. Ask him what effect that unintelligent reading has on the words being shared. The congregation shuts down when the Scriptures are read poorly, and people don't learn or get inspired from them. Point out to him people who do read well in church - I bet he already likes them. Were I in your shoes I would also say that it hurt to hear him read aloud like that because of all the years of hard work *he* put into learning to read beautifully were thrown away for a moment. It'd be tricky to tell him that and not have it come out a guilt-trip but it is worth the work IMO.

 

Above all, I would not take his actions personally - he did not mean them as an affront to you. He must feel so incredibly "out there" with his big body and new voice. It's hard growing into our puppy-paws and dealing with how differently people treat you once you have a grown-up body.

 

:iagree:

 

Well, at least that is how I would want to handle it. In reality I would probably have started by saying something like "What was that?!". I would hope I would move on from there to Elizabeth's way of handling things.

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Well my ds has trouble reading aloud, not because of a subpar education, but because of learning difficulties. He's very uncomfortable reading in front of others.

 

If he heard someone whom he knows can read well stuttering through the words he would think they were poking fun at him and shut down.

 

My son is well spoken and friendly, he just doesn't like reading that well. You might ask your son how he'd feel if he thought he was making someone else uncomfortable.

 

My son doesn't have the height, but he has the deep voice. Perhaps your son is feeling like he sticks out more than he wants. He can't change his height or voice but the reading is something he could control. I'd find some ways to make him more comfortable with his changing body, and ways to be proud of his education.

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Having been that child...

 

I would empathize with his predicament. Let him know that he does have the power to chose how he reads in public--how often, how well. (NOT during schooltime, but in public) Reading excessively poorly is going to come across as picking on others. They already know he doesn't read like that. Even mediocre reading is going to have the negaqtives mentioned above--people get bored. It's wasting a gift, lukewarm water, salt with no taste, hiding a light under a basket. But it's normal to want to tone it down a *little* to bllend in...it's a hard decision...and it's his decision to make. Show empathy.--peers are very important at this age, and very intolerant, very insecure.

 

Now to counter the desire to dumb it down, can you get him involved in public speaking elsewhere. I was on the public speaking team at school. Sometimes it's known as forensics (different sense of the word than CSI--speech team NOT forensic science!). At least THREE of the categories are related to reading aloud (presenting prose, poetry, drama, etc.) in addition to categories for persuasive speeches, informative, etc. It is a FABULOUS atmosphere for building confidence and taking pride in that talent, and meeting other kids who think it's cool that you're good at it. (I'd recommend joining via a team instead of independent, so they can be grateful for him earning the team points, and teach him to compliment others so he doesn't appear stuck up...and not to boast with overconfidence, either. ) Anyhow, since everyone is speaking, it's a great atmosphere for learning people skills with kids who are usually quite respectful and sensible, and who appreciate developing that talent.

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Guest Dulcimeramy

Thank you all very much. Monday's our busy night so I haven't been able to participate in this conversation I started, but I want to tell you I appreciate every post so much. Some of you brought out some nuances I hadn't considered.

 

:grouphug: BBL.

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Well my ds has trouble reading aloud, not because of a subpar education, but because of learning difficulties. He's very uncomfortable reading in front of others.

 

If he heard someone whom he knows can read well stuttering through the words he would think they were poking fun at him and shut down.

 

My son is well spoken and friendly, he just doesn't like reading that well. You might ask your son how he'd feel if he thought he was making someone else uncomfortable.

 

 

 

:iagree: My 10 yr old is dyslexic and has a very hard time reading out loud. (So, um, yeah, not all bad readers are ignorant or have a subpar education :glare:) He would be crushed and humiliated if he knew someone was reading like he does on purpose. I'm sure he would feel that person was making fun of him.

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Guest Dulcimeramy
:iagree: My 10 yr old is dyslexic and has a very hard time reading out loud. (So, um, yeah, not all bad readers are ignorant or have a subpar education :glare:) He would be crushed and humiliated if he knew someone was reading like he does on purpose. I'm sure he would feel that person was making fun of him.

 

Then you know what it is like to be the mother of a non-average child. :glare:

 

That being true, I would think you would have a shred of understanding for my son, who is only a kid trying (awkwardly) to fit into a setting where he is the one who is different. Has your kid never done that? Age 13 is rough, no matter who you are. He didn't read that way in the class. He did it only at home, only in front of me.

 

Dyslexic kids everywhere can just be thankful that Jonas is not raising himself. He has been taught that his solution to his problem is not appropriate so he will go on reading proficiently if he even agrees to keep going to church. That will make other kids feel bad, too, so they will pick on him, but people often seem to think the 'smart' kids deserve to feel like geeks. Life goes on.

 

Two of the boys in his class have added these pages to their FB "likes": Reading is gay and Reading is for fags. One of their mothers thinks they are acting defensively about reading because they are embarrassed by their learning disabilities. Those mothers have their problems and I have mine.

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But I'm not going to let him act like that. I made him re-read it aloud until he was up to my standards. It took until the fourth read for him to start sounding like Jonas again.

Good job. He doesn't know how privileged he is to have the education and the skill he has been developing under your care. Some day he will recognize it -- just maybe not at 13... If he wants to pretend he can't read at church, there's not an awful lot you can do, but you *can* make sure he continues to grow and develop at home.

 

Has your child ever practiced dumbing himself down to fit in at church?

I do remember being a kid at church and wondering why the Sunday School teacher *tortured* us by making other kids read aloud. I was probably in 4th or 5th grade. I was not a very tolerant kid, I'm afraid. But I simply couldn't understand 1) why the other kids couldn't read, 2) why the teacher tormented them by making them read when they couldn't and why the rest of us had to suffer through it. ... But I don't recall ever pretending I couldn't read. Then again, I was a girl.

 

At home we believe boys should be well-educated.

 

:(

Someday he *will* appreciate it.

 

It's so very sad that none of those other boys have a parent willing and able to sit with them and coach them toward reading fluency... Sigh.

Edited by abbeyej
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Uh, I think I would have laughed, told him he has gotten very good at doing imitations, and moved on to imitating something ELSE. Maybe he doesn't need to work on reading aloud anymore? Maybe character voices or something else that doesn't remind him of that and skirts the issue entirely? Extemp? He's plenty old enough to do extemporaneous speaking. Yup, I'd move on to something else. He's clearly quite gifted. :)

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Two of the boys in his class have added these pages to their FB "likes": Reading is gay and Reading is for fags. One of their mothers thinks they are acting defensively about reading because they are embarrassed by their learning disabilities. Those mothers have their problems and I have mine.

 

Sorry, but I wouldn't even allow my child back in that Sunday School class. There's absolutely no excuse for comments like that, and for the parents not to correct it when they KNOW about what is going on means it has gotten out of hand. Just put him in SS with you and be done with it.

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Amy, I think what she was saying is, "Yes, my son reads poorly and knows it. It would be much more hurtful to him if a good reader *pretended* to be a poor reader by doing an imitation of his reading rather than simply reading well." ... And I think that's a good point to pass on to your son. "What you see as 'reading like everyone else', they may see as 'imitating and making fun of my learning challenge'."

 

Obviously that's *not* what your son intended. He wants to fit in. He's doing the best he can. He's insecure about being different. As are they. They deal with their insecurity by saying "reading is stupid", "reading is for girls", etc. He deals with it by pretending to be less capable than he is. *But* that could be misread by the other kids in the class to be seen as mockery. *HE* wouldn't mean it that way, but it could be interpreted that way. They *know* he's not a struggling reader, so for him to "fake it" like that... It's disingenuous and could be hurtful.

 

It might be worth talking to him about that.

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Now that stuff right there is what would have me cracking heads.

 

Yeah, but in that case, it's only their own parents who can really do the head-cracking... Sigh. Not that it shouldn't be done. I just don't see what anyone else can say (unless the parents are simply unaware of what their sons are posting on FB).

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Guest Dulcimeramy
Dulcimeramy, I sent you a pm. You misunderstood my post.

 

Thank you! I did misunderstand. Sorry for answering so abruptly. Thanks for taking the time to clarify that instead of hating me forever!

 

 

Sorry, but I wouldn't even allow my child back in that Sunday School class. There's absolutely no excuse for comments like that, and for the parents not to correct it when they KNOW about what is going on means it has gotten out of hand. Just put him in SS with you and be done with it.

 

Now that stuff right there is what would have me cracking heads.

 

Yes, DH and I agreed today that we are done with that church. :( It makes me sad, because of all the reasons we started going there last winter (long story) but none of the boys are thriving or fitting in, it is too far to drive anyway, and DH disagrees with most of the theology. He was going there for my sake b/c I thought the boys would fit in there (and me, too) but we really, really don't. Square pegs.

 

The scuffles among middle-school aged boys is not that big a deal and could happen anywhere, but I agree that the homophobia is not something I want my boys exposed to. Especially at church!! There are other very wrong lessons they are learning from some of the other kids that I've only just found out about, too (another long story) and we wouldn't have started going there if I'd known this was the climate among the teens.

 

Ugh! Not happy.

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Guest Dulcimeramy
Yeah, but in that case, it's only their own parents who can really do the head-cracking... Sigh. Not that it shouldn't be done. I just don't see what anyone else can say (unless the parents are simply unaware of what their sons are posting on FB).

 

abbeyej, I don't understand FB. The stuff posted on kids' FB pages is enough to curl my hair, but the adults in their lives only ignore the junk and comment on the commendable. I've seen it in church people, extended family, TKD friends, etc.

 

All I can think is that maybe the kids are hiding the posts and info from their parents and just putting it out there for the rest of the world to see, but that doesn't quite hold up when coaches, aunts, uncles, grandparents, pastors, etc. don't say anything, either. Maybe they just don't say anything publicly.

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Guest Dulcimeramy

I feel like a snob. I'm not liking myself today.

 

I don't want to see my hateful face in the mirror because I don't care for the truth I am carrying around right now. The truth is we are leaving a church because in our not-so-humble opinion the kids are bad influences on our kids. I don't admire it when other people make that decision, because nobody's kids are perfect! No families are perfect! Our kids are not better than anybody else's kids. I truly believe that. Whisper: As a matter of fact, they are driving me up the wall and I wish I could go enroll them all in school for the coming year.

 

Yet I don't see the point of going to a church like this. Our TKD school teaches and insists upon better standards of positive behavior than our church does. Ditto for other secular organizations we're involved with.

 

Truly, I'd rather my son spend Wednesday night at the dojang than at Bible class, and so we skip Wednesday night Bible class. He learns better values at TKD.

 

If anyone would like to call me names, that's fine.

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Our kids are not better than anybody else's kids. I truly believe that.

 

Maybe not but you have a special duty to your children that you don't to others. Moving to a different church is not claiming your children are better then or are more special then those kids you're leaving behind, it's recognizing that your kids are the ones your have a duty to and are responsible for.

 

If anyone would like to call me names, that's fine.

 

Not a chance. :):grouphug: You're doing the right thing.

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Maybe it's not that you "think their kids are a bad influence"... Maybe it's that this church doesn't promote a culture that you want to be a part of. It's not necessarily the *kids* you're even objecting to. It's the fact that you want to be part of a group where the adults are involved, where they encourage the kids to value each other and treat each other respectfully, where they step in to gently guide kids as they grow... And you're not getting this at this particular church.

 

Your values don't mesh. *shrug* That seems like a pretty *good* reason to keep looking for a better church fit to me.

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I feel like a snob. I'm not liking myself today.

 

I don't want to see my hateful face in the mirror because I don't care for the truth I am carrying around right now. The truth is we are leaving a church because in our not-so-humble opinion the kids are bad influences on our kids. I don't admire it when other people make that decision, because nobody's kids are perfect! No families are perfect! Our kids are not better than anybody else's kids. I truly believe that. Whisper: As a matter of fact, they are driving me up the wall and I wish I could go enroll them all in school for the coming year.

 

Yet I don't see the point of going to a church like this. Our TKD school teaches and insists upon better standards of positive behavior than our church does. Ditto for other secular organizations we're involved with.

 

Truly, I'd rather my son spend Wednesday night at the dojang than at Bible class, and so we skip Wednesday night Bible class. He learns better values at TKD.

 

If anyone would like to call me names, that's fine.

 

 

:grouphug:

 

You're responsibility is to YOUR kids and if you lost them to that crowd-even though they're a church crowd- all the regret wouldn't matter a lick to you when they were living a life you knew was wrong.

 

It's sad, it is. But that doesn't mean you have to save it and it doesn't mean your family has to sink with it.

 

Leaving churches is really hard because our expectations of them are so high. It's a really hard part of the journey, but remember who is walking it with you.

 

 

:grouphug:

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Guest Dulcimeramy

Thank you very much, Dawn, abbeyej, and 'mouse. :grouphug:

 

Very helpful to frame it that way: I don't have to accuse myself of disliking these kids, or their parents. At least, that's not the point and not what I'm dwelling on. The point is that we don't all have the same values so the feeling of community breaks down where our own kids are concerned. And my priority is my own boys and what kind of influences are in their lives.

 

Thank you all.

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