Kathleen in VA Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Do people really think that the majority of divorces happen because of people "finding their bliss"? That's just odd to me. I have seen parents stay together for the kids. Those that did not have a ton of conflict had less of a hard time, but I would have hated to grow up in that home. Children are far more aware than we thin they are. I want my child to see a loving couple and a complete marriage. Not one while they are not connected, not in love, etc. Most marriages that I see break up are due to infidelity or abuse. That's hardly finding your bliss. My marriage is not perfect - there are tense moments from time to time. I think it is far more valuable for my children to see that we persevere during those times and push through to the "other side" than to see us throw our hands up and say forget it, this is just too stinking hard and we're going to call it quits so our children can always see a "loving couple." Perhaps that needs defining as well - what does it mean to be loving? I think at least some of what loving means is to overlook faults - even persistent ones - because I don't expect my spouse to be perfect. I believe vows should be kept - if you can't keep them don't make them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 :iagree:Are you unhappy because you're getting beaten every other day or called names and not allowed out of the house to go grocery shopping or are you unhappy because the thrill is gone and you want more excitement in your life or your spouse gained 10 pounds? Why you're unhappy matters a lot in this situation. Well, sure, I agree. I guess that I assumed that most people in the thread know that difference. KWIM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 It depends on the reasons for the divorce as well as how the parents handle it. Do I think my separation/divorce was damaging? yes and no. I think that Ending the marriage when I did prevented a lot of damage, there was a lot of yelling and swearing, my ex was an alcoholic and stopped coming home if there was a single sign of kids around, The day he hit and raped me was the day I ended the marriage . At the same time the separation itself did cause damage, for the first 6 years of separation my ex did not have any contact with the kids nor did he pay child support. After that he started paying child support but it wasn't until last month that he actually started trying to see them. We split up 10 years ago. So there is 10 years worth of the kids being hurt by a father who would not put any effort into them. I 100% believe that any damage done would have been far far worse if I had stayed in my marriage than what has already been done through the separation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 My marriage is not perfect - there are tense moments from time to time. I think it is far more valuable for my children to see that we persevere during those times and push through to the "other side" than to see us throw our hands up and say forget it, this is just too stinking hard and we're going to call it quits so our children can always see a "loving couple." Perhaps that needs defining as well - what does it mean to be loving? I think at least some of what loving means is to overlook faults - even persistent ones - because I don't expect my spouse to be perfect. I believe vows should be kept - if you can't keep them don't make them. I can't define it for anyone. I know that watching my mother and stepdad, it's sometimes something that I can't define. They have always loved eachother and it was not volatile, but I know that I'm sad that I had to see that model of a relationship growing up. THAT has harmed me far more than a divorce would have. The tenseness, undercurrent, the sniping. Loving to me means mutual respect and being in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Some do, most don't, at least if we are relying on statistics. I haven't seen much of that IRL either. People may grow up, etc but if children have to stay in that situation while it happens, that can be a selfish and damaging act. Again we need to know the DEGREE of dysfunction as Kathleen stated above. People aren't perfect and neither are marriages. That is a fact that kids need to learn too. And I disagree that staying together and working out problems is selfish and damaging to kids....It teaches kids that problems can be overcome. And that marriage is a serious committment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Well, sure, I agree. I guess that I assumed that most people in the thread know that difference. KWIM? I try not to assume anything, especially since I don't know everyone here. But I was actually referring more to those spouses out there who use the latter definition of unhappiness to leave their "unhappy" marriages. I was referring to the population as a whole - not just those reading this thread. KWIM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) I'm not speaking to your situation or parents, but if there is severe dysfunction the marriage, each party has lots of work to do either in the marriage or out of it. If that work is not done, the result is devastating for the kids no matter what happens to the marriage. __________________ I totally agree. But if the choice for a family is some unhappiness in the home (which is going to be there still even if they split, because it is devastating to children, adults, and every other family member involved ie. grandparents, siblings, etc. ) or unhappiness outside the family home and everyone starting over and the kids just having to deal with it, I still say from personal experience that it is better for the kids to have some semblance of a family life. Not saying it is ideal. Of course it isn't. But it was better in our case, and IMO would be better in a lot of cases. I would have chosen the pre divorce dysfunction hands down to the post divorce dysfunction. just my experience. Edited July 11, 2011 by 2_girls_mommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 My marriage is not perfect - there are tense moments from time to time. I think it is far more valuable for my children to see that we persevere during those times and push through to the "other side" than to see us throw our hands up and say forget it, this is just too stinking hard and we're going to call it quits so our children can always see a "loving couple." Perhaps that needs defining as well - what does it mean to be loving? I think at least some of what loving means is to overlook faults - even persistent ones - because I don't expect my spouse to be perfect. I believe vows should be kept - if you can't keep them don't make them. Okay, you had me until the end. Not so simple. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 And I disagree that staying together and working out problems is selfish and damaging to kids....It teaches kids that problems can be overcome. And that marriage is a serious committment. __________________ I agree with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Well, sure, I agree. I guess that I assumed that most people in the thread know that difference. KWIM? We can't assume that. This board has thousands of members and we don't want to be saying 'stick it out!' to a woman being beaten, nor do we want to be encouraging a woman to leave her husband because he doesn't keep the grass mowed. That is why SWB doesn't allow spouse bashing and why this thread will probably be locked soon. The OP asked a GENERAL question of us....our OPINION as to what divorce does to kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I can't define it for anyone. I know that watching my mother and stepdad, it's sometimes something that I can't define. They have always loved eachother and it was not volatile, but I know that I'm sad that I had to see that model of a relationship growing up. THAT has harmed me far more than a divorce would have. The tenseness, undercurrent, the sniping. Loving to me means mutual respect and being in love. Well, to me sniping or a constant undercurrent of tenseness is different than just going through the occasional rough spot. I agree there needs to be mutual respect. I don't know what "being in love" means. I see love as a choice, an action, not a feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 We can't assume that. This board has thousands of members and we don't want to be saying 'stick it out!' to a woman being beaten, nor do we want to be encouraging a woman to leave her husband because he doesn't keep the grass mowed. That is why SWB doesn't allow spouse bashing and why this thread will probably be locked soon. The OP asked a GENERAL question of us....our OPINION as to what divorce does to kids. Exactly. I'm trying to keep it general and hypothetical, so that it doesn't get locked. I'm very interested in perspectives on this issue. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathleen in VA Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Okay, you had me until the end. Not so simple. Lisa Well, yes, it isn't simple. If abuse or adultery is the case, the victim (biblically speaking) is free to be released from those vows. I just mean that vows should not be taken lightly. I'm just conjecturing now, but my guess is many folks make those vows all the while thinking in the backs of their minds, "til death do us part or if I find the whole marriage thing and being tied down to one person is getting tiresome." But you are right, it is not simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 __________________ I totally agree. But if the choice for a family is some unhappiness in the home (which is going to be there still even if they split, because it is devastating to children, adults, and every other family member involved ie. grandparents, siblings, etc. ) or unhappiness outside the family home and everyone starting over and the kids just having to deal with it, I still say from personal experience that it is better for the kids to have some semblance of a family life. Not saying it is ideal. Of course it isn't. But it was better in our case, and IMO would be better in a lot of cases. I would have chosen the pre divorce dysfunction hands down to the post divorce dysfunction. The truth would be in my family's case, that they should have probably never gotten married or had kids. But what can you do about that? There is no easy answer for this question. And here is another scenario nobody has touched. But even when there is abuse in a family do you really want to then send your children to the other parent unsupervised? Because, judges will and do. It is very hard to stop visitation, even in real cases of abuse. They claim that the spouse accusing the abuser is just trying to alienate the children. Having been in that situation, it was not difficult for me. My ex-dh became abusive and I stipulated that he must be in extensive therapy and supervised visitations at first. The judge agreed with me. He actually went through it and was better for it. My late father was an alcoholic and drug addict, which was why mom divorced him. She left him when I was a baby when he came home drunk and decided that it would be a great idea to take the baby (me) for a drive. She got me out of there quickly. When she went to court, she explained what happened and the court ordered only supervised visitation with my grandparents and he was not allowed to drive with me, etc. She worked hard to make that all go well and it did. It is important to take those things into account and protect children. I just know that parents can't supervise at all times. If you stay with that spouse, things can happen and you can't always stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Well, I havent read all the posts. But, how damaging is it to stay married in a yelling environment every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Do people really think that the majority of divorces happen because of people "finding their bliss"? That's just odd to me. . My personal and professional experience is that the superficial divorce is a myth. Most people do not divorce easily, lightly, or for superficial reasons. I think one of the reasons the myth is so persistent is because when people divorce, they often don't share the details of their situation with a wide circle. As a divorcing person of faith, you learn very quickly that people have entrenched ideas, ready judgment, and assume negative intent very quickly. During my separation, I took a "divorce class" at a local Christian church hoping to divorce well. There were 30 people in that class, all of them in some stage of marital decline. None of them left for superficial reasons, all of them were in pain/agony over the failure of the marriage. Of course, people leaving "lightly" are less likely to seek help or support. In my 20+ years of recovery from alcoholism and sponsoring women in AA, I have "met" a lot of divorce situations. Even in those, where you'd expect a higher level of immaturity, dysfunction, etc, I saw very, very few frivolous divorce situations. The myth of the superficial divorce is harmful. I don't "like" the divorce rate, and I am concerned about the complicated factors that created it, but I think we do families a disservice when we are quick to assume that a preponderance of divorce is not valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Well, to me sniping or a constant undercurrent of tenseness is different than just going through the occasional rough spot. I agree there needs to be mutual respect. I don't know what "being in love" means. I see love as a choice, an action, not a feeling. I understand what you're saying. I think that everyone has rough spots, every marriage and relationship and that it needs to be worked on. I see love as a feeling, as well as a choice. I do think that the love can go up and down over the years and that it is pretty normal for that to happen. I see that as different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Having been in that situation, it was not difficult for me. My ex-dh became abusive and I stipulated that he must be in extensive therapy and supervised visitations at first. The judge agreed with me. He actually went through it and was better for it. My late father was an alcoholic and drug addict, which was why mom divorced him. She left him when I was a baby when he came home drunk and decided that it would be a great idea to take the baby (me) for a drive. She got me out of there quickly. When she went to court, she explained what happened and the court ordered only supervised visitation with my grandparents and he was not allowed to drive with me, etc. She worked hard to make that all go well and it did. It is important to take those things into account and protect children. I just know that parents can't supervise at all times. If you stay with that spouse, things can happen and you can't always stop it. Thank goodness! That is good to hear. I actually took that quote down, because I knew it was too much for an online discussion. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Do people really think that the majority of divorces happen because of people "finding their bliss"? Yeah, I do. I think people get bored, the spark is gone, they "grow apart," etc., and they want something more fun and exciting. The people that I know who have gotten divorced have done so primarily because of infidelity (see below) or "growing apart." Imo, it takes work not to grow apart. You work on it together. I have seen parents stay together for the kids. Those that did not have a ton of conflict had less of a hard time, but I would have hated to grow up in that home. Children are far more aware than we thin they are. I want my child to see a loving couple and a complete marriage. Not one while they are not connected, not in love, etc. I grew up in a home where the parents stayed together for the kids, and I am glad I did. I didn't really think much about whether my parents were connected and in love when I was little. I knew my mom cried in the bathroom and my dad lived downstairs; I knew they were not "happy," but I didn't have deep thoughts about the implications of this with regards to a happy/fulfilled/functional relationship or not. I just knew my mom cried in the bathroom and my dad lived downstairs. And both of them were THERE. That was what was important to me. Both have remarried and are happy. Neither regrets staying together for the kids. Most marriages that I see break up are due to infidelity or abuse. That's hardly finding your bliss. Imo, infidelity is the ultimate "finding your bliss." It's childish escapism. "My marriage isn't fabulous so I'll go find something exciting with someone else." Totally selfish and completely avoidable. Tara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Thank goodness! That is good to hear. I actually took that quote down, because I knew it was too much for an online discussion. :) Aww, thanks :001_smile: It does take work to make that all happen and it's true that the court system does not always do what we want it to. I may have gotten lucky but things went pretty well for us. I know that it doesn't for all people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Exactly. I'm trying to keep it general and hypothetical, so that it doesn't get locked. I'm very interested in perspectives on this issue. Lisa So back to that...I think divorce is devastating and I would do all in my power to prevent it. I would (and did!) put up with a lot to prevent a divorce. One thing I suggest is not sugar coating the problem areas to children....For instance when then husband would treat me poorly I would have a discussion with ds the next day about how men should treat women....and if it turned personal, (if ds brought up his dad) I would be as kind and respectful as I could while I told ds the TRUTH that his dad's actions were wrong. I wouldn't sugar coat alcohol issues. I wouldn't hide the addiction problem. Kids need the Truth. They can live through a lot and still thrive...but when their perception of Truth is tainted by the adults they trust lying to them THEN they get messed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) Yeah, I do. I think people get bored, the spark is gone, they "grow apart," etc., and they want something more fun and exciting. The people that I know who have gotten divorced have done so primarily because of infidelity (see below) or "growing apart." Imo, it takes work not to grow apart. You work on it together. I grew up in a home where the parents stayed together for the kids, and I am glad I did. I didn't really think much about whether my parents were connected and in love when I was little. I knew my mom cried in the bathroom and my dad lived downstairs; I knew they were not "happy," but I didn't have deep thoughts about the implications of this with regards to a happy/fulfilled/functional relationship or not. I just knew my mom cried in the bathroom and my dad lived downstairs. And both of them were THERE. That was what was important to me. Both have remarried and are happy. Neither regrets staying together for the kids. Imo, infidelity is the ultimate "finding your bliss." It's childish escapism. "My marriage isn't fabulous so I'll go find something exciting with someone else." Totally selfish and completely avoidable. Tara We will just agree to disagree here. I am glad that things worked out well for you. The thought of my mom crying and being so unhappy in life would be a knife in my heart. :crying: It sounds like it all worked out for them though and that they are happy now, in their own marriages. Edited July 11, 2011 by YLVD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 Well, yes, it isn't simple. If abuse or adultery is the case, the victim (biblically speaking) is free to be released from those vows. I just mean that vows should not be taken lightly. I'm just conjecturing now, but my guess is many folks make those vows all the while thinking in the backs of their minds, "til death do us part or if I find the whole marriage thing and being tied down to one person is getting tiresome." But you are right, it is not simple. My personal and professional experience is that the superficial divorce is a myth. Most people do not divorce easily, lightly, or for superficial reasons. I think one of the reasons the myth is so persistent is because when people divorce, they often don't share the details of their situation with a wide circle. As a divorcing person of faith, you learn very quickly that people have entrenched ideas, ready judgment, and assume negative intent very quickly. During my separation, I took a "divorce class" at a local Christian church hoping to divorce well. There were 30 people in that class, all of them in some stage of marital decline. None of them left for superficial reasons, all of them were in pain/agony over the failure of the marriage. Of course, people leaving "lightly" are less likely to seek help or support. In my 20+ years of recovery from alcoholism and sponsoring women in AA, I have "met" a lot of divorce situations. Even in those, where you'd expect a higher level of immaturity, dysfunction, etc, I saw very, very few frivolous divorce situations. The myth of the superficial divorce is harmful. I don't "like" the divorce rate, and I am concerned about the complicated factors that created it, but I think we do families a disservice when we are quick to assume that a preponderance of divorce is not valid. Great post, Joanne. Kathleen, not to pick on you, but I don't know anyone who treats their vows that lightly. I think the decision to separate is agonized over, for years in some cases. Frivolous divorce, as Joanne states, is something that really seems counterintuitive to me. Who would choose to rip a family apart for frivolous reasons? I'm sure it happens, I just don't believe it's the norm. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Great post, Joanne. Kathleen, not to pick on you, but I don't know anyone who treats their vows that lightly. I think the decision to separate is agonized over, for years in some cases. Frivolous divorce, as Joanne states, is something that really seems counterintuitive to me. Who would choose to rip a family apart for frivolous reasons? I'm sure it happens, I just don't believe it's the norm. Lisa :iagree: Great post back at you. :001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in CA Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) My parents fought all the time. After their divorce, they still fought all the time, but then we also had to contend with: Having more than one (which meant no *real*) home Parents who were dividing their time & interests between their children and their new "friends" A contentious new step-parent Step-siblings with different rules regarding everything under the sun (bedtimes, food, tv, etc) Different rules in different households Shuttling our stuff around in suitcases for years! Waiting by the door for hours for a late pick-up Having weekends that were "dad's weekend" or "mom's weekend", but never *our own* weekend Different pressures from each household priority-wise (grades vs. social, college vs. vocation, etc). Even though by most standards my situation after my parents' divorce was one of the best hoped for, life for the kids was definitely *not* better after the divorce, and I wish that my parents had been self-sacrificing enough to work out a system whereby they lived together, but had their own lives, leaving ours more or less intact. Surely they could have thought less of themselves and more about the dc they created together, and at least held it together until we were older and more self-sufficient. ETA: I guess I didn't answer the original question. Divorce was very, very damaging to the children in my family. At the same time, if it really is true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, I guess you could say that it made me a very strong person. :glare: Edited July 11, 2011 by Julie in CA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) So back to that...I think divorce is devastating and I would do all in my power to prevent it. I would (and did!) put up with a lot to prevent a divorce. One thing I suggest is not sugar coating the problem areas to children....For instance when then husband would treat me poorly I would have a discussion with ds the next day about how men should treat women....and if it turned personal, (if ds brought up his dad) I would be as kind and respectful as I could while I told ds the TRUTH that his dad's actions were wrong. I wouldn't sugar coat alcohol issues. I wouldn't hide the addiction problem. Kids need the Truth. They can live through a lot and still thrive...but when their perception of Truth is tainted by the adults they trust lying to them THEN they get messed up. :iagree: As the child of divorce, and someone that had to divorce, being respectful of the other parent is KEY. My mom never, ever bad-mouthed my father in front of me. When she spoke of my dad, she pointed out his good points, that he was a good person (he was), but that he was sick with addiction. She always told me that. I believe that she handled it so well. I carried that over into my own situation. My ex-dh and I now get along well. Even when we didn't, I basically explained her dad's good qualities but that everyone needs help from time to time and that he needed therapy to get over some things. I would never have bad-mouthed him. I gave her as much information as I felt was healthy, without over or under sharing. She needed to know why we couldn't live with him, but she did not need to feel bad about herself due to the actions of her dad. It's a tough balance. My ex DH and I have made peace. I even attended his wedding with his new wife, with my DD. She isn't close to him at this point but that's due to some of his own behavior. Even if you stay in the marriage, don't insult or critisize the parent, if possible, discuss the actions. Edited July 11, 2011 by YLVD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 It is important to take those things into account and protect children. I just know that parents can't supervise at all times. If you stay with that spouse, things can happen and you can't always stop it. And if you divorce and your spouse gets regular unsupervised visitation as is most likely to happen in many states, your child might have far more alone time with with your former spouse and be in far greater danger. Leaving to protect the children sometimes doesn't work. I've been away from my ex for 5 years now and to this day this is my greatest fear. When I was with him, I actually could be there almost all the time. Certainly more than if he got every other weekend or a day a week, or more, of unsupervised visitation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Having been in that situation, it was not difficult for me. My ex-dh became abusive and I stipulated that he must be in extensive therapy and supervised visitations at first. The judge agreed with me. He actually went through it and was better for it. My late father was an alcoholic and drug addict, which was why mom divorced him. She left him when I was a baby when he came home drunk and decided that it would be a great idea to take the baby (me) for a drive. She got me out of there quickly. When she went to court, she explained what happened and the court ordered only supervised visitation with my grandparents and he was not allowed to drive with me, etc. She worked hard to make that all go well and it did. I'm glad in the two cases you mentioned that the children were protected. However, that is not the reality of modern day divorce/court situations. Supervised visitation is very rare...especially if the offending spouse fights the charges. I'm curious in your situation if the fathers fought the charges and court orders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 Yeah, I do. I think people get bored, the spark is gone, they "grow apart," etc., and they want something more fun and exciting. The people that I know who have gotten divorced have done so primarily because of infidelity (see below) or "growing apart." Imo, it takes work not to grow apart. You work on it together. See, I think people think this is why most marriages end, but I don't think it's really that simple. I refuse to judge others or pretend I know what's happening in their homes because I know it barely scratches the surface of the complexity of their lives and relationships. Really, I wouldn't know where to begin describing my marriage of 20 years. Does someone else truly think they can capture it in a catch phrase ("the spark was gone", or "they just grew apart"). that's so cliche, and really an insult to parties involved. (edited: I do NOT think that's what you're doing; just saying in general) I appreciate your input, as I asked for opinions. But I was just talking to my sister about this today. I hate to see someone's life/relationships/etc reduced to something so simple. It is all so much more complicated than that. Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 And if you divorce and your spouse gets regular unsupervised visitation as is most likely to happen in many states, your child might have far more alone time with with your former spouse and be in far greater danger. Leaving to protect the children sometimes doesn't work. I've been away from my ex for 5 years now and to this day this is my greatest fear. When I was with him, I actually could be there almost all the time. Certainly more than if he got every other weekend or a day a week, or more, of unsupervised visitation. Of course, I know that can happen. I haven't seen it happen a lot IRL but I know that it does. I just know that my mom could not keep my dad from taking me out for a drive, without finding someone to physically restrain him. Her leaving kept me safe as he couldn't be around me and he had been in many DUI accidents. It would be very scary to be in your position. I'm very sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 My parents fought all the time. After their divorce, they still fought all the time, but then we also had to contend with: Having more than one (which meant no *real*) home Parents who were dividing their time & interests between their children and their new "friends" A contentious new step-parent Step-siblings with different rules regarding everything under the sun (bedtimes, food, tv, etc) Different rules in different households Shuttling our stuff around in suitcases for years! Waiting by the door for hours for a late pick-up Having weekends that were "dad's weekend" or "mom's weekend", but never *our own* weekend Different pressures from each household priority-wise (grades vs. social, college vs. vocation, etc). Even though by most standards my situation after my parents' divorce was one of the best hoped for, life for the kids was definitely *not* better after the divorce, and I wish that my parents had been self-sacrificing enough to work out a system whereby they lived together, but had their own lives, leaving ours more or less intact. Surely they could have thought less of themselves and more about the dc they created together, and at least held it together until we were older and more self-sufficient. Julie, this is my experience as well. You seem to have clarified it better than I did. Things could have gone differently if mine had realized they had made these kids together, raised us with that as their priority as they did before the divorce, and then had their separate lives later. Instead there were our entire growing up years dealing with the things you are describing. It did not get better for us because they remarried, got a better a job, moved into their dreamhouse, had more children etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The thought of my mom crying and being so unhappy in life would be a knife in my heart. Well of course I don't like the idea. But you know, my mom was a grown woman and made the choices she thought were best. I'm sorry she was unhappy and cried. But she was unhappy when she got divorced, too. She didn't like her job or her living situation or the stress the divorce put on my sister and me. It's not really an either/or: either you are unhappily married or you are happily divorced. I think she thought life would improve after she left my dad. It didn't for many years. There have been times I have been unhappy with things in my marriage, and I have cried, too. I don't want my kids to have a knife in their hearts. It's not about them, and I don't expect them to take on that burden. I'm an adult, and I make my own choices. My husband and I have had some hard times and stress. We've worked through them and are delightfully happy right now. I know not everyone can do that, but I also don't think hard times in a marriage, or crying about it, is necessarily a terrible, terrible thing. I think it's part of life. If I'd divorced my husband when I was unhappy and crying, I honestly believe my life would be far worse than it is now. I know my kids' would be. Tara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Who would choose to rip a family apart for frivolous reasons? I'm sure it happens, I just don't believe it's the norm.Lisa My XH? Or any person who decides to commit adultery. THAT drives the marriage off into the ditch....It is true that the innocent mate in such a case is NOT divorcing over something frivilous, but the OFFENDING mate CAUSED the divorce over something frivilous. Same with alcohol. If you have a problem with addiction and you refuse to seek treatment and thereby leave your wife with no options....you have just destroyed your family over something frivilous. Adultery and addiction are very selfish issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Of course, I know that can happen. I haven't seen it happen a lot IRL but I know that it does. I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) I'm glad in the two cases you mentioned that the children were protected. However, that is not the reality of modern day divorce/court situations. Supervised visitation is very rare...especially if the offending spouse fights the charges. I'm curious in your situation if the fathers fought the charges and court orders? It must be regional. I worked in the legal field and see a fair amount of supervised supervision in abuse cases. A lot of it seems to boil down to the area and also proof, what the judge feels constitutes proof, etc. The whole system needs to be overhauled but don't get me started on that! My father did not fight it. In his lucid moments, he was aware that he shouldn't be caring for me. I was already very close to my grandparents and was able to see him with them. I actually didn't know that any of the supervised visitation was happening until I was a teen. To me, it was hanging out with my dad and grandparents. My ex-dh did fight it, and lost. He had to comply with all restrictions. I was able to present police reports to back up my statements. I'm sure that it is much tougher for many when the parent fights it. Edited to add that I may have had an easier time of things due to my experience in the legal system, knowing the evidence to present, etc. Edited July 11, 2011 by YLVD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 See, I think people think this is why most marriages end, but I don't think it's really that simple. I refuse to judge others or pretend I know what's happening in their homes because I know it barely scratches the surface of the complexity of their lives and relationships. Really, I wouldn't know where to begin describing my marriage of 20 years. Does someone else truly think they can capture it in a catch phrase ("the spark was gone", or "they just grew apart"). that's so cliche, and really an insult to parties involved. (edited: I do NOT think that's what you're doing; just saying in general) I appreciate your input, as I asked for opinions. But I was just talking to my sister about this today. I hate to see someone's life/relationships/etc reduced to something so simple. It is all so much more complicated than that. Lisa :iagree: That is my personal experience, observation, and opinion. Is your sister open to Al Anon? That will give her tools to live by whether the marriage continues or not. Divorcecare.org is a "good" resource, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 My XH? Or any person who decides to commit adultery. THAT drives the marriage off into the ditch....It is true that the innocent mate in such a case is NOT divorcing over something frivilous, but the OFFENDING mate CAUSED the divorce over something frivilous. Same with alcohol. If you have a problem with addiction and you refuse to seek treatment and thereby leave your wife with no options....you have just destroyed your family over something frivilous. Adultery and addiction are very selfish issues. Totally agree, Scarlet. ESPECIALLY with the bolded ;) I was addressing the notion of "most" divorces happening because "the spark just isn't there" kind of frivolity. lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 :iagree: That is my personal experience, observation, and opinion. Is your sister open to Al Anon? That will give her tools to live by whether the marriage continues or not. Divorcecare.org is a "good" resource, too. My "sister" (wink") will look into this. thanks, lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 It must be regional. I worked in the legal field and see a fair amount of supervised supervision in abuse cases. A lot of it seems to boil down to the area and also proof, what the judge feels constitutes proof, etc. My father did not fight it. In his lucid moments, he was aware that he shouldn't be caring for me. I was already very close to my grandparents and was able to see him with them. I actually didn't know that any of the supervised visitation was happening until I was a teen. To me, it was hanging out with my dad and grandparents. My ex-dh did fight it, and lost. He had to comply with all restrictions. I was able to present police reports to back up my statements. Some of it is the type of abuse and dysfunction. Courts don't care about affairs. You also can't call 911 and get reports on gaslighting behavior, namecalling, financial abuse, etc. For those people who have experienced real but non physical abuse, the family law system can't address those situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 My "sister" (wink") will look into this. thanks, lisa Sending good thoughts, prayers, and offering support should she need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLVD Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Some of it is the type of abuse and dysfunction. Courts don't care about affairs. You also can't call 911 and get reports on gaslighting behavior, namecalling, financial abuse, etc. For those people who have experienced real but non physical abuse, the family law system can't address those situations. Absolutely and much of that type of abuse is just as and sometimes more damaging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomLovesClassics Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I haven't read the thread. I think it depends on how civilized they are capible of acting to each other. And not putting ideas in the kids head that the other parent is to blame or somehow inferior. So many parents chose to shield their children from the other parent and badmouth the other parent. Divorce has become way too common in our day and age, it is very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I haven't read the thread. I think it depends on how civilized they are capible of acting to each other. And not putting ideas in the kids head that the other parent is to blame or somehow inferior. So many parents chose to shield their children from the other parent and badmouth the other parent. Divorce has become way too common in our day and age, it is very sad. I have said this once in this thread, but parents who can pull off this type of divorce should probably just stay married and find a way to get along. Sometimes you know, one parent IS to blame. There are no perfect people, but sometimes ONE does something that forces a divorce even when no one really wanted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbgrace Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I read most of the thread--the first eight pages--but I may have missed a turn. OP, I would strongly recommend anyone interested in this for personal or general reasons read the book referenced early in this thread about the legacy of divorce. Libraries often have it or can get it. It is sobering but it's a well done study and truth. To really weigh the specifics in a particular marriage I think that book would help. It may still come out on the side of less harmful to divorce given an untreated addiction or it may not. But you would want to have a clear picture of the negative impacts of divorce, even if done well, and I think that book will give that picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I read most of the thread--the first eight pages--but I may have missed a turn. OP, I would strongly recommend anyone interested in this for personal or general reasons read the book referenced early in this thread about the legacy of divorce. Libraries often have it or can get it. It is sobering but it's a well done study and truth. To really weigh the specifics in a particular marriage I think that book would help. It may still come out on the side of less harmful to divorce given an untreated addiction or it may not. But you would want to have a clear picture of the negative impacts of divorce, even if done well, and I think that book will give that picture. :iagree: Also, I've seen different degrees of addiction....especially when it is alcohol. My step father (sober 30 years now) was a high functioning alcoholic. He always worked and provided for his family, was faithful to his wife but drank A LOT. My step sister and brother were damaged by that (and he suffers the guilt terribly) BUT I do not believe that particular family would have been better off split up. His wife stayed with him unti she died. He tended to her lovingly on her death bed, having been sober for many years at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeeBeaks Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 It was devastating for me as a child. My dad eventually got custody but also remarried, and new wife declared I had to leave or she would .... have only seen my dad a handful of times in the 30 years since. Ended up with other relatives, who proceeded to abuse me and threaten to send me to foster care. Yeah, not pretty. I gave up on my family of origin long ago. My marriage at times has had its rough points, but we stick with it and try. I remember how horrible divorce was from the child's perspective in my situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I don't blame my mom for divorcing my dad. She shouldn't have married him to begin with. I do think the next marriage was a mistake and very tumultuous, including many separations and a divorce. I think that after the first marriage the kids' well-being should come first before another honey or spouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMom2One Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) I am a divorced and remarried woman who had three children by a first marriage. My former husband was mentally ill and our life together progressed over time to become a nightmare. I had no choice but to leave him because he was extremely cruel, abusive and unfaithful. We had three sons, and I was doomed with either choice, but I chose to end the marriage to protect the boys and I from an environment of constant abuse. Our sons are now men, and I can tell you how it was for our family as they grew up. Although we had a horrible situation where divorce was justified, it did have an impact on my sons emotionally. They loved and needed their dad, and they loved me desperately as well. What they needed the most -- a loving family -- we were never able to give them. I want to encourage you by this to never consider divorce without taking it all into consideration. The best thing for children is for the parents to come together and make the commitment to do whatever it takes to save the marriage. If that is not possible, and sometimes it isn't, then you have to take another road. Life after divorce with children for us was very hard. Without anyone meaning to or intentionally planning to do so, my children always felt pulled between their parents. They were always perplexed over loyalties to both of us, and they suffered from grief and sorrow over the loss of our family. Even though we had wonderful counseling over a period of years, these hurts were the product of the divorce. In saying all this, I also realize that if their dad and I had stayed together, they would have had other hurts and issues as well. But I would have given anything for them to not have to carry the sorrow of a broken family! Another issue to consider in all of this is finances. The majority of single parent moms end up living in poverty, even if they have child support. Some are fortunate to have good paying careers or an ex-husband who is wealthy and continues to provide well for the mom and kids, but that is not typical. This, and many other issues involving being a single mom, are not fully comprehended until one is actually out there living it. Trust me, being a single parent is the hardest job in the universe. I was a single mom for seven long years and I do know what I'm talking about. Not only do I know from experience, but over the years I was close to a number of other single parents. None of us had an easy life...none of us. So as you consider your options, think about how the children will be provided for. That is crucial to their well being, just as much as the emotional factors. Over the years my former husband and I learned to have what I called a good, working relationship. Forgiveness gradually came, and it became the best that it could be under the circumstances -- yet even so, the scars left from the breakup of our family were very, very deep for our whole family. What I didn't realize at the time of the divorce was that there is a bond between husband, wife and children that lasts a lifetime. When my former dh died just recently, I was amazed at how it affected me. Most of my grief over the loss of our marriage and life together had been worked through many years ago -- and he was a terrible husband -- yet I still grieved over his death. (I still am actually.) We had been divorced for over twenty years, but we had children together and that tie did not go away with the divorce. So considering this, can you imagine how it is for the children? The ties of marriage and family run deep. My divorce attorney was a wise, older man who was a tremendous help. I will never forget something that he said at the start of the proceedings. He said that it takes the exact same skills and commitment to share custody of the kids as it does to stay married. If a couple thinks that they can't parent together in marriage, they should know that it will still be as hard or even harder after divorce. Looking back on my life I know that I'd do it again if faced with the same situation, but I also believe that a couple should do everything humanly possible to stay married. Divorce should be an absolute last option. There are many broken families in our culture that are the result of parents giving up too soon and too easily. I'm not sure if I've truly answered your questions, but I hope that my sharing gives you things to think about. The main points are these: 1. When you marry someone and have children, you will never be rid of that person until death do you part. 2. It's no longer just about you and him because, yes, it does affect the children. Blessings, Lucinda Edited July 11, 2011 by HSMom2One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I have said this once in this thread, but parents who can pull off this type of divorce should probably just stay married and find a way to get along. :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: Had my parents split up when I was 12, I'm sure they would've really tried to be reasonable amicable to each other and co-parent and whatnot. It wouldn't have solved the issue that was causing all the turmoil, however. Counseling, on the other hand, was able to help them work through their differences and move on. You know that old saying about suicide being a "permanent solution to temporary problems"? Well, that's often true of divorce as well. Marriage is hard work and not all of them can or should be saved. But many, many of them can if the partners aren't so quick to give up in the face of a rough patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 The current research I have read says that it isn't the divorce, or staying in a bad marriage, that affects the kids - it's the level of conflict. So - I think doing whatever insures a lower level of conflict is probably a good thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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