s/o catholic/protestant thing - SOF issue

[mommaduck]

Why is it wrong for me to explain what another group thinks? I do not judge one's faith based on whether they immerse or sprinkle. This group does. Doesn't it help those who do practice infant baptism to know why they are being separated from and treated as unchristian?

 

Please don't twist my words to make it sound like I'm one of those narrow-minded groups. :)

 

I'm always open to conversation, but I'm sincerely hoping you misread me. ETA: I could have been more clear, though. I am do not agree with those SOFs.

Since one's salvation rarely comes up at most co-ops and most Evangelical Christian co-ops include groups of people that don't agree with each other on other things, no, it doesn't help. One should not sit and judge another's salvation. There are Protestants that believe in infant baptism that are included in those groups, but not Catholics/Orthodox. So that isn't even an issue. Only if there is a particular type of history course being taught could I see an issue. Writing, Latin, Art, PE...none of that has anything to do with one's theological leanings.

 

I like the fact that we have an inclusive group in the next county.

[milovany]

I can't stand the phrase "like-minded" when used in this context. Just thought I'd go on record as stating that. :tongue_smilie:

[asta]

Unfortunately it is all too true. Many group leaders/founders do sit down and make sure no Catholics, some mainline Protestants, Jews, Hindu, Pagan, Atheists, Agnostic, etc., and so forth., are comfortable joining the group.

 

Yep.

 

The group I mentioned actually specifically did this.

 

Truly sad.

 

 

And I don't buy the whole "like minded" thing, either. To me, it smacks of "isms". I mean seriously, you meet some pleasant person at a party, find out you both like gardening, the food network, have 3 kids of similar ages, come from the same part of the country, enjoy each other's sense of humor and then...

 

OH NO! SHE HAS MUSLIM COOTIES! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

 

Get a grip.

 

It's supposed to be HOMESCHOOLING support, not a flipping revival meeting.

 

 

asta

[asta]

I never get that, either, particularly the underlined.

 

On the website: could you tab or menu or otherwise arrange the category page links at the top? It looks a little busy/disjointed (I'm on Chrome)

 

sigh - I hate that about iWeb. It just throws the tabs up there in the order of the pages. I'm going to try to rework it while I work on the "grown up" website.

 

Thanks for the tip.

 

 

a

[justasque]

I've never thought of those kind of groups as "excluding others" but as "including like minded individuals". In other words, I don't think most groups sit down to write a SOF and think, "ok, how can we make sure no Catholics join?", they're thinking "how can we attract people who believe as we do?".

 

I was once at the meeting of a Christian homeschooling group where several people expressed their fears of what might happen if Catholics were able to participate in their group activities. (IIRC, someone brought up the suggestion that the group be more inclusive.) I think the main activity in question was a Geography Fair. These moms were deeply worried - scared even - that their dc might be exposed to a display that might mention, for example, the pope.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Since one's salvation rarely comes up at most co-ops and most Evangelical Christian co-ops include groups of people that don't agree with each other on other things, no, it doesn't help. One should not sit and judge another's salvation. There are Protestants that believe in infant baptism that are included in those groups, but not Catholics/Orthodox. So that isn't even an issue. Only if there is a particular type of history course being taught could I see an issue. Writing, Latin, Art, PE...none of that has anything to do with one's theological leanings.

 

I like the fact that we have an inclusive group in the next county.

 

I would be weary of adults and children asking my children if they have been saved, etc.... That has been my experience over and over again, so I'm not willing to put my children in a situation like that until they are old enough to defend themselves. That is why this issue is not as big of a deal to me as it is to others. I've seen churches 'use' co-ops and clubs as a way to evangelize people like me and my children. They have free soccer camps and break for salvation talks. They have debate clubs with a bible study based on their interpretation of scripture. They often do those things underhandedly and don't even tell you about them up front. I went to a field trip at a 'Christian' farm and we ended up getting a theology lesson full of errors that I had to undo all the way home. I think it is great that some people experience groups that can truly meet together and put aside their theology differences. I've just never seen one in person.

 

Also, I think typically Catholic groups don't have a SOF, because it is one church w/ a universal doctrine. Evangelical churches don't have any uniformity in doctrine, so they have to figure out what they agree on.

[MamaSheep]

Yep.

 

The group I mentioned actually specifically did this.

 

Truly sad.

 

 

And I don't buy the whole "like minded" thing, either. To me, it smacks of "isms". I mean seriously, you meet some pleasant person at a party, find out you both like gardening, the food network, have 3 kids of similar ages, come from the same part of the country, enjoy each other's sense of humor and then...

 

OH NO! SHE HAS MUSLIM COOTIES! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

 

Get a grip.

 

Some people feel this way, yes. Shortly after we moved into one home a very nice neighbor lady came by to chat when she saw me out working in the yard with ds. She dropped by fairly regularly for several weeks whenever she saw me out in the yard and we had a number of lovely chats and discovered we had several interests in common. Then one day she was telling me about an event she had attended at her church, and asked me in passing whether our family also attended church. I told her that yes, we were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and were quite active in our church. Her eyes got big. She said something like, "Wait...isn't that the Mormons?" I told her yes it was. She stammered some excuse about needing to get back home quickly. And never spoke to me again the whole time we lived in that house. (Unless you count the evening she screamed at me from her front yard about what a rotten pig her husband was, and how dreadful men were in general. But I gather something traumatic had happened in her marriage and I was the target of her tirade only because I was the only other person around at the time. I thought about going over to see if I could help but decided probably being accosted by one of those Mormons might be more than she could handle under the circumstances and just went back inside to give her some privacy with her feelings. I still wonder if that was the right thing to do.)

 

I don't know what in her background had made her so afraid, and nowadays I would handle the whole situation differently, (at the time I was a struggling new wife with a bizarre, but as yet undiagnosed, toddler and far too little sleep, and I was barely holding it together. I felt like I couldn't deal with her prejudice and as long as she left me alone I was happy to do the same for her) but I do think people with that mindset are deserving of some level of compassion. And I don't really think that getting cranky about their attitude is likely to make them like us better. :) And frankly, I am grateful for my freedom to associate (or not) with whoever I choose, and I think that if I value this freedom for myself it would be hypocritical for me to begrudge it to others.

 

It's supposed to be HOMESCHOOLING support, not a flipping revival meeting.

 

 

asta

 

Well....for US that may be true. For some people, their core reasons for homeschooling in the first place are inseparable from their faith. Homeschooling is part of their religious expression. I can see where those who see it as part of their devotion to God would maybe want to share that form of worship with people who also considered it as such, and I don't think that's necessarily small-minded.

 

For me, personally, I'm more than happy to discuss homeschooling issues with pretty much anyone, as long as they don't try to force their own views on me. But for me homeschooling is a choice of educational venue, not a religious obligation. I can see the other side, though.

Edited July 9, 2011 by MamaSheep

[wapiti]

Since one's salvation rarely comes up at most co-ops and most Evangelical Christian co-ops include groups of people that don't agree with each other on other things, no, it doesn't help. One should not sit and judge another's salvation.

 

I can't stand the phrase "like-minded" when used in this context. Just thought I'd go on record as stating that. :tongue_smilie:

 

OH NO! SHE HAS MUSLIM COOTIES! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

 

Get a grip.

 

It's supposed to be HOMESCHOOLING support, not a flipping revival meeting.

 

These moms were deeply worried - scared even - that their dc might be exposed to a display that might mention, for example, the pope.

 

Along these lines, there's something I can't quite put my finger on that seems counterproductive, or rubs me the wrong way or something, about these SoFs.

 

Maybe I misunderstand how co-ops function, but I thought these were about academic or enrichment classes. Perhaps this isn't analogous, but many Catholic schools have quite a number of students of other faiths (at the school we considered, about 50%), and there doesn't seem to be any issue of faith rubbing off one way or the other, even though religious ed is explicitly taught (i.e., little to no exchange of religious cooties, to use Asta's word ;))

[Ellesmere]

I don't think she's saying SHE believes that, it's just what her local co op believes.

Thank you. That's what I was saying.

 

Since one's salvation rarely comes up at most co-ops and most Evangelical Christian co-ops include groups of people that don't agree with each other on other things, no, it doesn't help. One should not sit and judge another's salvation. There are Protestants that believe in infant baptism that are included in those groups, but not Catholics/Orthodox. So that isn't even an issue. Only if there is a particular type of history course being taught could I see an issue. Writing, Latin, Art, PE...none of that has anything to do with one's theological leanings.

 

I like the fact that we have an inclusive group in the next county.

Well, I agree people shouldn't be judging each other. And I wish we had an inclusive group here. Sent you a PM as I'm a little puzzled. I feel like you told me I was wrong to explain why some SOFs are going to be hard for certain groups. Personally, I don't care for them but they do alert me if a group is going to try and evangelize my children or separate from us. Also, just to clarify, I was not talking about Evangelical groups. I'm sorry I've upset you and if you respond to my PM, I'll try to fix my post. I didn't realize this conversation was only about inclusive co-ops.

 

I can't stand the phrase "like-minded" when used in this context. Just thought I'd go on record as stating that. :tongue_smilie:

Me, too.

 

I would be weary of adults and children asking my children if they have been saved, etc....

 

Also, I think typically Catholic groups don't have a SOF, because it is one church w/ a universal doctrine. Evangelical churches don't have any uniformity in doctrine, so they have to figure out what they agree on.

:iagree:

That was basically what I was trying to say. It's not in the SOFs but certain phrases signal to me that the people will be asking my children if they are saved and try to get them to their youth group, church events, etc. and get our family back in their circle of churches.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

:iagree:

 

It would be difficult to imagine a statement of faith that was more purpose-built to exclude Roman Catholics without making such an exclusion explicit.

 

This is clearly designed to exclude Catholics (and the LDS). Not at all subtle.

 

Bill

 

Well, if my intention were to exclude certain groups, I would want it to be pretty clear. And if my presence were unwelcome by a group, I would rather realize that up front than to try to puzzle through mixed signals.

 

JMHO

[Parrothead]

I was once at the meeting of a Christian homeschooling group where several people expressed their fears of what might happen if Catholics were able to participate in their group activities. (IIRC, someone brought up the suggestion that the group be more inclusive.) I think the main activity in question was a Geography Fair. These moms were deeply worried - scared even - that their dc might be exposed to a display that might mention, for example, the pope.

That's it. Next year dd is doing the Vatican for the geography fair. :lol:

[asta]

That's it. Next year dd is doing the Vatican for the geography fair. :lol:

 

Hey, the Pope is on Twitter...

 

 

a

[asta]

Well....for US that may be true. For some people, their core reasons for homeschooling in the first place are inseparable from their faith. Homeschooling is part of their religious expression. I can see where those who see it as part of their devotion to God would maybe want to share that form of worship with people who also considered it as such, and I don't think that's necessarily small-minded.

 

 

Ok, this is going to sound really stupid...

 

I have literally never considered that idea. And I have turned this issue around in my head about as many ways as I thought was possible.

 

Huh.

 

 

a

[kimnc]

Ok, this is going to sound really stupid...

 

I have literally never considered that idea. And I have turned this issue around in my head about as many ways as I thought was possible.

 

Huh.

 

a

 

Yes, when you sign up with the state here to homeschool you are asked if it will be a religious homeschool or not.

Not sure why they ask, since it really doesn't change anything with regards to the requirements. Maybe just for recordkeeping purposes?

[MamaSheep]

Yes, when you sign up with the state here to homeschool you are asked if it will be a religious homeschool or not.

Not sure why they ask, since it really doesn't change anything with regards to the requirements. Maybe just for recordkeeping purposes?

 

I would guess it has something to do with protection of constitutional rights to free religious expression. The government has less regulatory authority over "religious practice" than it does over "education". So in some ways it's legally a different animal if teaching your children at home is a form of obedience to religious doctrine than it is if it's just a personal preference, even if you also happen to be religious and include religious instruction in your school. I gather some states even have separate regulations for people who are homeschooling as part of their religion as opposed to people who just choose to educate at home.

Edited July 9, 2011 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

Ok, this is going to sound really stupid...

 

I have literally never considered that idea. And I have turned this issue around in my head about as many ways as I thought was possible.

 

Huh.

 

 

a

 

Eh...not stupid. But I'm glad you see the distinction.

 

It's funny how one person might say they homeschool "for religious reasons" and mean that they just think homeschooling is the best way for them to be able to pass on their religious beliefs and practices to their kids, and another person might say they homeschool "for religious reasons" and mean that they think homeschooling will protect their kids from influences that might damage their religious convictions, and still others who say they homeschool "for religious reasons" and mean that it is literally a part of their religion that they believe God requires mothers to be the ones to teach their own children. And then there are those of us who are "religious" homeschoolers and mostly mean that we have strong religious beliefs as part of our family life and also happen to homeschool because we think that's the best educational setting for our kids. And actually, in my case I am religious and I homeschool, and then there's an added element that even though my religion does not consider homeschooling to be part of our religious practice, I personally firmly believe that God has required me as an individual to homeschool one particular child that he has entrusted to my care. I hesitate to even guess how that would shake out constitutionally...lol...

 

Words are funny things.

[ktgrok]

Why is it wrong for me to explain what another group thinks? I do not judge one's faith based on whether they immerse or sprinkle. This group does. Doesn't it help those who do practice infant baptism to know why they are being separated from and treated as unchristian?

 

Please don't twist my words to make it sound like I'm one of those narrow-minded groups. :)

 

I'm always open to conversation, but I'm sincerely hoping you misread me. ETA: I could have been more clear, though. I am do not agree with those SOFs.

 

I read this as you explaining why people might not want unbiblical faiths attending their meetings. As in, you were labeling those that participate in infant baptism unbiblical. If i misinterpreted that I apologize.

[Ellesmere]

I read this as you explaining why people might not want unbiblical faiths attending their meetings. As in, you were labeling those that participate in infant baptism unbiblical. If i misinterpreted that I apologize.

Katie, I have made it very clear that I was explaining why some people feel (what I would call an unnecessary) need to separate from people that practice infant baptism, along with other things implied in some SOFs. Explaining a SOF is not the same as buying into it.

 

I really do not wish to be seen as calling people that practice infant baptism as unbiblical considering I think that baptisms of babies, children, and adults are valid. That is not a fair picture.

 

I realize the idea of calling someone unbiblical in a mainline Christian denomination is offensive and I do not agree with people that do that, since they count me as unchristian as well. But why does it bother people that I explained why some groups separate from others? I was just trying to show why a Catholic (or others) might not want to sign such a statement. FWIW, I go to a Catholic church.

 

The OP sort of illustrates that these SOFs do not always make it clear as to why certain groups of Christians are not welcomed at particular groups and it takes some doing to read.

[momma aimee]

Right from the first line there's a problem: the Catholic Bible contains books that the Protestant Bible does not. I actually didn't read any further yet LOL.

 

LOL my first thought too

[ktgrok]

Katie, I have made it very clear that I was explaining why some people feel (what I would call an unnecessary) need to separate from people that practice infant baptism, along with other things implied in some SOFs. Explaining a SOF is not the same as buying into it.

 

I really do not wish to be seen as calling people that practice infant baptism as unbiblical considering I think that baptisms of babies, children, and adults are valid. That is not a fair picture.

 

I realize the idea of calling someone unbiblical in a mainline Christian denomination is offensive and I do not agree with people that do that, since they count me as unchristian as well. But why does it bother people that I explained why some groups separate from others? I was just trying to show why a Catholic (or others) might not want to sign such a statement. FWIW, I go to a Catholic church.

 

The OP sort of illustrates that these SOFs do not always make it clear as to why certain groups of Christians are not welcomed at particular groups and it takes some doing to read.

 

I wasn't offended that you were explaining, I was offended because your wording made it appear YOU were describing me as unbiblical, as your explanation as to why THEY didn't want me in their group. Does that make more sense? Now that it is cleared up, I am not offended at all. It was just not clear.

[smillard00]

I totally understand and have the same experience. Also Anglican, and find that the Christian groups only mean certain kinds of Christians, and yet we are not quite Catholic enough for the RC group. Sigh.

 

Sometimes I feel like we are the only Episcopal homeschoolers in the world.

 

I thought WE were the only Episcopal homeschoolers in the world. :lol: I even found a Yahoo group for Episcopal homeschoolers and joined it (several years ago) and there has been nothing but crickets chirping there, further reinforcing to me our very exclusive status! :D

[Donna T.]

Heck, that SOF would have excluded me when I was a member of the Church of Christ, let alone now that I'm Catholic. But then Baptists and CoC have a some very specific differences, since CoC are not Calvinist.

 

Not all Baptists are Calvinists. :)

[Donna T.]

I know that some churches tweek the Lord's Prayer, too, but I wouldn't think that would make it completely unacceptable to other groups. For example, I learned "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" but I know others use debts in place of trespasses. Some also end after "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" while I learned to continue with "for thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever" and then Amen (with some in the congregation adding "and ever" after the forever).

 

 

 

I have always thought these differences resulted from the variety of Bible translations that are commonly used in the churches. We use the KJV, so our church would recite the Lord's Prayer slightly different than a church that is using a more modern translation.

[Donna T.]

I am a Baptist and I believe I would take a long pause before signing the SOF that the OP has shared here. I would have to know exactly what the purpose of it is and may seek clarification on a couple of the topics. I have only signed one statement of faith ever and it was quite general. I have never seen such a specific SOF as this one. I'm not sure I would or could sign it.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Donna T.

[momma aimee]

Well, this is about as explicit a statement to exclude Catholics as I have ever seen, unless you count the one I saw that mentioned Catholics by name. SOFs usually have a line in them for sola scriptura, sola fide or both. The reference to the number of books in the Bible is clearly set up to exclude Catholics here, as is the faith alone statement.

ITA

[Birdwinglips]

 

And I don't buy the whole "like minded" thing, either. To me, it smacks of "isms". I mean seriously, you meet some pleasant person at a party, find out you both like gardening, the food network, have 3 kids of similar ages, come from the same part of the country, enjoy each other's sense of humor and then...

 

OH NO! SHE HAS MUSLIM COOTIES! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!

 

Get a grip.

 

It's supposed to be HOMESCHOOLING support, not a flipping revival meeting.

 

 

asta

 

I love it!!! :iagree:

[coffeefreak]

Heck, that SOF would have excluded me when I was a member of the Church of Christ, let alone now that I'm Catholic. But then Baptists and CoC have a some very specific differences, since CoC are not Calvinist.

 

Not all Baptists are Calvinists. :)

 

:iagree: and :confused:

 

I was raised a Baptist, and every Baptist church I've ever been to has been the exact opposite of Calvinist (no offense to Calvinists :001_smile:). It was exactly a month ago someone told me that Baptists were Calvinist (which made me laugh), and now, it keeps cropping up. I know that Charles Spurgeon was a Baptist minister that agreed with Calvin, but that doesn't make all Baptists Calvinist. Sorry to go off on a rabbit trail.

 

All that to say, the older I get, the more alike I realize we all are. What's that saying? "The more things change, the more they stay the same?":D

 

As for the SOF, our group has one not to exclude, but to make the members aware of what the sponsoring church believes. This is two fold. One is to make sure that the families participating know what they're getting themselves into. If, for example, you're not a Christian, you are welcome to join, but the classes will be taught from an Evangelical Christian point of view. So, if you're not comfortable with that, this may not be the co-op for you. The other part of that is, every mother or father is required to teach to participate in the co-op. As a teacher in the co-op, you are expected not to teach anything opposing the beliefs of the sponsoring church. So, for example, I taught Earth Science last year. I actually asked one of the church Elders to teach the "Religion" portion, because I felt that I was ill-equipped to teach it to their specifications. He agreed to do it joyfully, and many other mothers expressed they did not sign up to teach Earth Science for that reason.

 

I think the key is finding out WHY a co-op has a SOF. They're usually willing to tell you. I have been exposed to a co-op that specifically said IN the SOF, if you don't agree with their beliefs, this co-op is not for you, because you're essentially making a Profession of Faith by signing the SOF. However, if the SOF is for clarification and establishing guidelines, I'm willing to sign provided I feel comfortable with those guidelines.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[KungFuPanda]

I'll admit that I skipped from page 7 to 12, but I have to know . . . are there no inclusive homeschooling groups in your area? Are they impossible to find in some parts of the country. We've homeschooled for 10 years, and have a variety of religious and secular groups to choose from, but I'm guessing from these posts that some communities have NO inclusive groups? Say it ain't so!

 

KungFuPanda-who owns up to never joining TORCH because they started at 8 a.m.

[Teachin'Mine]

Admittedly I haven't read beyond the first page, but what I don't understand is why groups like that use SOF instead of just saying that only members of x church may join. Seems simpler. But the whole idea of only so and so can be in the group is very foreign to me. Even Catholic schools admit people of all faiths, or no faith. There is no SOF or excluding of others.

[SonshineLearner]

.... Even Catholic schools admit people of all faiths' date=' or no faith. There is no SOF or excluding of others.[/quote']

 

But, they probably don't let "just anyone" teach... Do they??:bigear::bigear:

[Spy Car]

Well, if my intention were to exclude certain groups, I would want it to be pretty clear. And if my presence were unwelcome by a group, I would rather realize that up front than to try to puzzle through mixed signals.

 

JMHO

 

But why exclude people? Do people feel their faith is so weak that exposure to a Jew, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or (gasp) atheist is going to destroy their relationship with the divine?

 

Seems ridiculously small-minded, and (frankly) very insecure.

 

Bill

[asta]

But why exclude people? Do people feel their faith is so weak that exposure to a Jew, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or (gasp) atheist is going to destroy their relationship with the divine?

 

Seems ridiculously small-minded, and (frankly) very insecure.

 

Bill

 

Why yes, many people do appear to feel that way.

 

Odd, isn't it?

 

But just try and cross their path: they organize quickly to destroy "outsiders".

 

I've watched it happen to friends of mine, and I've had it happen to myself; it was NOT pretty.

 

 

a

 

 

ETA: among other things, there was even a whisper campaign in my community about me being a witch. I just laughed. I kept envisioning Audrey and thinking "and the problem is....?"

[asta]

But, they probably don't let "just anyone" teach... Do they??:bigear::bigear:

 

Normally, if a person wants to teach at a Catholic institution, they have to agree to abide by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

 

Abide by.

 

They aren't necessarily teaching anything from the Magisterium, they just have to abide by what is in it.

 

So, for example, a math teacher is going to be teaching math. There isn't anything in the Magisterium about math. Unless that teacher wants to go on a political or religious crusade in their classroom (which no teacher is supposed to be doing anyway), there is no conflict of interest no matter what their religious (or lack there of) background is.

 

Obviously, you're not going to find a Southern Baptist teaching Catholic Theology, but you would probably be surprised by what students actually learn in theology courses in Catholic schools. It is rarely limited to Catholicism. Of course, when kids are really young, that is all they will get (sorry - but let's face it - every religion goes with basic indoctrination at the grammar level), but as they grow up, comparative religion comes into play.

 

If a person were to have gone to a reputable, well established Catholic college, their theology & philosophy coursework would have taught them a great deal about Judaism, Islam, Protestantism, Eastern Philosophies, LDS and a smattering of other faiths.

 

One of the things I have always found amusing is that Catholics and LDS often end up chatting about theology, having it drummed into them, whether or not they went to a Catholic College or Brigham Young. Additionally, both Catholic Priests and LDS preachers tend to be completely, utterly over-educated. LOL

 

 

a

[SailorMom]

I have also found Catholic schools/churches to be a lot more tolerant than MANY Protestant faiths...

From my experience (other than not letting people take Communion if not Catholic), they encourage outside participation. Also - they aren't that concerned about what you believe until you are baptised into the Catholic Church - then it is their concern :)

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

Normally, if a person wants to teach at a Catholic institution, they have to agree to abide by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

 

Abide by.

 

They aren't necessarily teaching anything from the Magisterium, they just have to abide by what is in it.

 

 

a

 

Unfortunately, most Catholic schools don't require their employees to abide by the magisterium. As a Catholic School teacher, I can attest that there were very few teachers that did this. This is why there are very few Catholic schools I'd send my children to.

[FaithManor]

But why exclude people? Do people feel their faith is so weak that exposure to a Jew, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or (gasp) atheist is going to destroy their relationship with the divine?

 

Seems ridiculously small-minded, and (frankly) very insecure.

 

Bill

 

Spycare, now don't let logic run away with you here. Think logically?...can't.be.done.in.a.lot.of.circles.

 

You must not have been around for my thread a few months back in which I posted about a local homeschool group (we do not belong and will NEVER belong) who asked, knowing that my family is seriously science oriented and we own a LOT of cool science equipment, if I would dissect with their group. A couple of days later while I was considering it, I received another phone call from the director withdrawing her request because she'd recently been told that our children have been allowed to read the Harry Potter books. She wanted me to know that they couldn't tolerate a "spirit of witchcraft" or something like that (can't remember the exact wording) within their group. Of course, my brain just didn't compute - there I go thinking logically again - the leap of catastrophic distance from dissecting crayfish with 7th and 8th graders to teaching witchcraft. But, she did want to know if I'd let them use our equipment anyway!

 

I won't tell you exactly what I said...it was not one of my better, more tolerant, more loving, more graceful Christian moments...it had a little more of that righteous wrath feel to it. No, I did not allow them to borrow my equipment.

 

So, don't go thinking about that prickly logic. Humans are weird...as individuals we can be quite reasonable. As a herd, humans seem to be bent on having a pecking order.

 

In our area, the SOF's that go with homeschool groups are shockingly restrictive.

 

Faith

[mommaduck]

But, they probably don't let "just anyone" teach... Do they??:bigear::bigear:

 

Actually, some do. The Catholic high school my eldest attended this last year had at least one, if not two, non-Catholic teachers; one of them was Jewish.

[wapiti]

:iagree: I attended a well-known Catholic university, and I was pretty sure that my philosophy professor was an athiest.

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

:iagree: I attended a well-known Catholic university, and I was pretty sure that my philosophy professor was an athiest.

 

This is so sad, but it doesn't surprise me. The Cardinal Newman Society is a good resource for Catholic higher ed that is true to church teaching.

[LittleIzumi]

 

If a person were to have gone to a reputable, well established Catholic college, their theology & philosophy coursework would have taught them a great deal about Judaism, Islam, Protestantism, Eastern Philosophies, LDS and a smattering of other faiths.

 

One of the things I have always found amusing is that Catholics and LDS often end up chatting about theology, having it drummed into them, whether or not they went to a Catholic College or Brigham Young. Additionally, both Catholic Priests and LDS preachers tend to be completely, utterly over-educated. LOL

 

 

a

 

:lol:True, very true. We do get into Catholic & LDS theology chats quite often here, don't we? And as the LDS church uses a lay ministry, it's not just the peeps in charge being over-educated. We're supposed to get as much education as we can. (Certainly helps with homeschooling!)

 

Spycare, now don't let logic run away with you here. Think logically?...can't.be.done.in.a.lot.of.circles.

 

You must not have been around for my thread a few months back in which I posted about a local homeschool group (we do not belong and will NEVER belong) who asked, knowing that my family is seriously science oriented and we own a LOT of cool science equipment, if I would dissect with their group. A couple of days later while I was considering it, I received another phone call from the director withdrawing her request because she'd recently been told that our children have been allowed to read the Harry Potter books. She wanted me to know that they couldn't tolerate a "spirit of witchcraft" or something like that (can't remember the exact wording) within their group. Of course, my brain just didn't compute - there I go thinking logically again - the leap of catastrophic distance from dissecting crayfish with 7th and 8th graders to teaching witchcraft. But, she did want to know if I'd let them use our equipment anyway!

 

I won't tell you exactly what I said...it was not one of my better, more tolerant, more loving, more graceful Christian moments...it had a little more of that righteous wrath feel to it. No, I did not allow them to borrow my equipment.

 

So, don't go thinking about that prickly logic. Humans are weird...as individuals we can be quite reasonable. As a herd, humans seem to be bent on having a pecking order.

 

In our area, the SOF's that go with homeschool groups are shockingly restrictive.

 

Faith

 

:svengo: :svengo:

*grabs tickets for Harry Potter opening night & gives a mad scientist laugh*

 

:iagree: I attended a well-known Catholic university, and I was pretty sure that my philosophy professor was an athiest.

 

Dh had a professor who acted like an atheist all term, swore in class, liked to shock the mostly LDS population in his class... and then admitted at the end of class that he was LDS, too. :blink::confused: I don't get that at all.

[asta]

Now see, I don't see a problem with either an atheist or an LDS person being a philosophy prof at a Catholic college.

 

Does the guy know his Aquinas? Yes? Fine. Hire him.

 

There were only 2 people here (they both just moved) who could argue Catholic theology and/or philosophy at a collegiate (MA, PhD) level: one was the Priest, and the other was the LDS chaplain. The Protestant chaplain was lost.

 

 

a

[wapiti]

Now see, I don't see a problem with either an atheist or an LDS person being a philosophy prof at a Catholic college.

 

Does the guy know his Aquinas? Yes? Fine. Hire him.

 

There were only 2 people here (they both just moved) who could argue Catholic theology and/or philosophy at a collegiate (MA, PhD) level: one was the Priest, and the other was the LDS chaplain. The Protestant chaplain was lost.

 

 

a

 

Yeah, I suppose somehow it worked (Nietzsche was clearly his favorite), though I was a slacker and hated the class because it required actual thinking LOL. I'd probably find the class more interesting today. Theology, on the other hand, was taught by the Jesuits.

[Teachin'Mine]

But, they probably don't let "just anyone" teach... Do they??:bigear::bigear:

 

Good question. Years ago this was a non issue as most of the teachers were sisters or brother. Now there are few religious teaching and most are lay teachers. Certainly for subjects such as religion, the teacher's beliefs are paramount. But for other subjects, like math for instance, I don't believe that the teacher needs to be Catholic. I think that they have to agree not to teach contrary to the Catholic faith. Of course all of this varies from school to school. I do know that there are teachers, in Catholic schools, of other faiths. What percentage I don't know.

[Ellesmere]

But why exclude people? Do people feel their faith is so weak that exposure to a Jew, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or (gasp) atheist is going to destroy their relationship with the divine?

 

Seems ridiculously small-minded, and (frankly) very insecure.

 

Bill

As offensive or exclusive as a group or an SOF may be, to me it serves as a good warning signal that I won't be welcome in a particular group. Sure, it is small-minded but the doctrine of separation is a big deal in some circles. So I actually am glad my group has a SOF so I was able to see from the statement alone that I was not going to fit in. Better to be warded off by the SOF than to join a Christian group and find out they restrict the definition of Christian down to members of a small circle of churches, IMO.

 

I think it is (subconsciously) born out of fear, not that the relationship is destroyed but that the Jew, Catholic, Muslim, or atheist might effectively reveal their illogical arguments. The stated purpose, though, would be to protect the group's Biblical Separation. And as in FaithManor's experience, to protect from unholy influences, never mind how illogical it is to connect someone's view on Harry Potter to animal dissection. I did time in a group that was extremely concerned about how someone would ever be able to face Judgment and explain how they could be so rebellious as to enjoy HP. And for the record and clarity, yes, I left.

[unsinkable]

Yeah, I suppose somehow it worked (Nietzsche was clearly his favorite), though I was a slacker and hated the class because it required actual thinking LOL. I'd probably find the class more interesting today. Theology, on the other hand, was taught by the Jesuits.

 

A Franciscan, a Dominican, and a Jesuit were miraculously transported to witness the birth of Jesus. They each had different reactions to the sight of the Virgin Mary, Joseph and the infant Jesus.

 

The Franciscan fell on his face, overcome with awe at the sight of God born in such poverty.

The Dominican fell to his knees, adoring the beautiful reflection of the Holy Family.

The Jesuit walked up to Joseph, put his arm around his shoulder, and said, "So, have you thought about where to send the boy to school?"

 

Catholic humor, hahaha. :lol:

[Spy Car]

As offensive or exclusive as a group or an SOF may be, to me it serves as a good warning signal that I won't be welcome in a particular group. Sure, it is small-minded but the doctrine of separation is a big deal in some circles. So I actually am glad my group has a SOF so I was able to see from the statement alone that I was not going to fit in. Better to be warded off by the SOF than to join a Christian group and find out they restrict the definition of Christian down to members of a small circle of churches, IMO.

 

I think it is (subconsciously) born out of fear, not that the relationship is destroyed but that the Jew, Catholic, Muslim, or atheist might effectively reveal their illogical arguments. The stated purpose, though, would be to protect the group's Biblical Separation. And as in FaithManor's experience, to protect from unholy influences, never mind how illogical it is to connect someone's view on Harry Potter to animal dissection. I did time in a group that was extremely concerned about how someone would ever be able to face Judgment and explain how they could be so rebellious as to enjoy HP. And for the record and clarity, yes, I left.

 

I am awfully unlearned in these matters but doesn't the idea of "Biblical separation" that is promulgated by Bob Jones conflict with the message of Jesus, who told his followers to be like salt and light? Are they not to "flavor the world" and burn their light on a candlestick rather hinding the light under a bushel?

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

A Franciscan, a Dominican, and a Jesuit were miraculously transported to witness the birth of Jesus. They each had different reactions to the sight of the Virgin Mary, Joseph and the infant Jesus.

 

The Franciscan fell on his face, overcome with awe at the sight of God born in such poverty.

The Dominican fell to his knees, adoring the beautiful reflection of the Holy Family.

The Jesuit walked up to Joseph, put his arm around his shoulder, and said, "So, have you thought about where to send the boy to school?"

 

Catholic humor, hahaha. :lol:

 

I love it!!! :001_smile:

 

Got any "Age of Reason" jokes?

 

Bill

[happyhappyjoyjoy]

A Franciscan, a Dominican, and a Jesuit were miraculously transported to witness the birth of Jesus. They each had different reactions to the sight of the Virgin Mary, Joseph and the infant Jesus.

 

The Franciscan fell on his face, overcome with awe at the sight of God born in such poverty.

The Dominican fell to his knees, adoring the beautiful reflection of the Holy Family.

The Jesuit walked up to Joseph, put his arm around his shoulder, and said, "So, have you thought about where to send the boy to school?"

 

Catholic humor, hahaha. :lol:

:lol:

And happyhappyjoyjoy said, "A DOMINICAN SCHOOL!"

[wapiti]

Catholic humor, hahaha. :lol:

:lol::lol: (LOL, for some reason I just pictured Fr. Gary as the Franciscan)

[Dustybug]

I agree that not all Baptists are Calvinists. In fact, I've been a Baptist all my life and NEVER met one that was! I had never even heard the connection of the two until very recently. :confused:

 

As far as biblical separation, I do believe in it, but not to the extent where Christians live in a hole with only other Christians around them. We are to go out and be the salt and light by sharing the love and truth of Jesus, but we are not to conform ourselves to the values and ideals of society at large to appease those who disagree with us.

 

 

 

And on a complete side note, I am against reading/watching Harry Potter, but would never tell someone they couldn't be a part of a group because they did. That even seems a bit odd to me. If the discussion came up amongst the children, I would just teach my children later why WE don't agree with it.